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The Last Jedi: Rekindled (Released) — Page 35

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Yes, thanks Hal! I will likely be using his audio and dropping in the Wilhelm scream where he used it!

FreezingTNT2, I suppose that could work, but I’m not sure how much that would really add. It would just be a tease in a flashback for a future moment we’ve already seen (kind of mind bending actually).

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I guess it would give Luke an additional motivation for considering the cold-blooded murder of Ben? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

@poppasketti Here is a suggestion: can you add Han Solo’s “Ben!” shout from The Force Awakens into the flashback where Luke is probing the mind of a sleeping Ben Solo?

I love this idea.

Change.org: Make Disney Release JJ Abrams’s 3+ hour Cut of Rise of Skywalker: http://chng.it/9H6YSwSKnF

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Is it meant to imply Luke seeing Ben kill Han in the future? If so I don’t think that is a good idea.

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I think that’s his idea yes, so to add motivation for him pulling out his lightsaber and failing Kylo-Ren. I don’t know how much it would help though, and might be distracting.

Edit: I also wonder if it would shrink the universe too much, where it feels like Luke is reacting more to Han’s death than the other hundreds (thousands?) of deaths Ren is responsible for.

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I also don’t know if Luke would exile himself if he knew Han would die in the future.

To me, Luke is mainly seeing the destruction of the temple and the death of his students. So after it happens, there’s little left from his vision to prevent. Maybe in his mind trying to prevent anything else would just cause further destruction.

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It’s a catch-22

If you explicitly reference the horrors of Ben’s later actions it makes you wonder why he would exile himself rather than try to prevent it.

On the other hand…

If you don’t explicitly reference these events you might wonder what could possibly make him want to kill Leia’s son.

You could go with the implication that Luke is merely looking into Ben’s mind and doesn’t see anything of the future, but if this were the case Luke would surely see the light which defines Kylo’s struggle, just as he sensed the light within Vader.

I can’t see a way to navigate this act which remains legible with what we know of Luke from the OT.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

I can’t see a way to navigate this act which remains legible with what we know of Luke from the OT.

Yeah, I think the best option is to just cut Luke trying to murder Ben completely, like DonKamillo did in his Anti-Cringe Cut. But that might not be a popular choice.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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But if he doesn’t do that, how can he blame himself for what has happened and exile himself? After all, the only failing would be in not seeing the darkness in Kylo to prevent the massacre, and is that really enough? Did he just say ‘well Snoke and Kylo really got me good, time to go die in exile’?

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

But if he doesn’t do that, how can he blame himself for what has happened and exile himself? After all, the only failing would be in not seeing the darkness in Kylo to prevent the massacre, and is that really enough? Did he just say ‘well Snoke and Kylo really got me good, time to go die in exile’?

Yeah, it is kind of a Catch-22. But that’s more of a problem with the movie itself, and I’m not sure a fanedit can fix it.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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I mean, I’m sure Luke loves all of his students, and in his vision he sees them all dying, so him turning on his saber is him acting instinctually to protect them.

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RogueLeader said:

I mean, I’m sure Luke loves all of his students, and in his vision he sees them all dying, so him turning on his saber is him acting instinctually to protect them.

So Luke loves all his students except Ben? Why wouldn’t he talk with Ben, try to reason it out? Instead he instinctually pulls out his lightsaber, as if Ben isn’t Luke’s nephew and close friend. But we’re getting off topic here. I don’t think it’s possible to cut Luke trying to kill Ben without creating even more problems.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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For Luke to show such drastic behavior of murdering his nephew in his sleep I would have thought the vision he witnessed was something very personal to him. What I would have like to have seen in Luke’s vision is Kylo killing someone he loved deeply like his wife such as Mara Jade or a daughter. I feel having this personal connection of someone he loved deeply would have been enough of motivation for him wanting to murder his only nephew in his sleep.

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I mean in ROTJ Luke goes on and on about he won’t kill Vader, but as soon as he threatens Leia he almost kills him. I’m sure Luke was shocked and never expected Ben to have those thoughts or plans. If he didn’t love Ben he wouldn’t have felt so ashamed himself for what he thought about doing.

Why wouldn’t it be personal if it was all of his students? This isn’t like Luke’s 10th year of teaching high school history or something, this is the first generation of new Jedi. All of his students, all of his responsibility. He probably felt like a parent to all of them.

EDIT: Sorry to bring this up! I know this is kind of conversation just goes in circles. I’m sure there’s a good way to edit the vision to make Luke’s response be more reflexive, but honestly I think adding the Palpatine laugh allows people who aren’t crazy about the scene to interpret that as Palpatine influencing his vision and coaxing his fear/anger, just like how he saw Vader coax Luke on the Death Star so long ago.

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RogueLeader said:

I mean in ROTJ Luke goes on and on about he won’t kill Vader, but as soon as he threatens Leia he almost kills him. I’m sure Luke was shocked and never expected Ben to have those thoughts or plans. If he didn’t love Ben he wouldn’t have felt so ashamed himself for what he thought about doing.

Why wouldn’t it be personal if it was all of his students? This isn’t like Luke’s 10th year of teaching high school history or something, this is the first generation of new Jedi. All of his students, all of his responsibility. He probably felt like a parent to all of them.

EDIT: Sorry to bring this up! I know this is kind of conversation just goes in circles. I’m sure there’s a good way to edit the vision to make Luke’s response be more reflexive, but honestly I think adding the Palpatine laugh allows people who aren’t crazy about the scene to interpret that as Palpatine influencing his vision and coaxing his fear/anger, just like how he saw Vader coax Luke on the Death Star so long ago.

The difference is that Luke realized his mistake upon seeing Vader’s cut-off mechanical hand and then his own, before throwing the lightsaber and telling the Emperor that he will never turn to the dark side, knowing that it isn’t the way of the Jedi. He conquered that darkness, only to fall victim to it yet again?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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the fact that it’s “again” is pretty integral to the film

the fact that it’s as out of character as it is for him, is pretty integral to the film

why would luke exile himself for any less of a failure? he failed his nephew and all his students in one night, out of an instinct he believed he overcame all those years ago. that’s the failure he feels so deeply

this is like something that worked the best in TLJ, removing it just confuses luke’s arc and makes him kind of unlikable.

if he sees han’s death, then he just gave up to let that happen? if he doesn’t instinctually think to kill ben, then his exile becomes uncharacteristically irresponsible and cowardly?

the way it is in the theatrical is consistent with the idealist we know and love from the OT, i dont think changing it does the film any favors. he feels responsibility deeply and holds his principles to a high standard. he wouldn’t abandon them just because

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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The filmmakers could’ve given Luke a different motivation for staying on Ahch-To, while not having him be out-of-character, contradictory to his already-established character traits (like redeeming other family members; seriously, if Luke redeemed Anakin in Return of the Jedi, why wouldn’t he redeem Ben?) or undoing his arc from the original trilogy so they can re-do that arc all over again. I mean, why would he be looking for the first Jedi temple, as mentioned by Han in The Force Awakens?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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I personally vote a hard NO on adding Han’s voice or anything else specific.

The arguments that are being used are essentially saying Luke saw specific actions on Ben’s part. But … there is no indication at all in the scene that Luke foresaw specific things Ben would do, like destroy his fellow padawans or slay Han. It was about WHAT he was becoming and WHAT he will bring.

Trying to link Luke’s reaction, exile, etc. to what he saw AND his decision afterwards is stretching it too much and will cause more confusion than answers (If he saw him killing his other students, why not still act if he farsaw him KILLING A BUNCH OF PEOPLE SOONISH? Foresaw Han getting killed, why not reach out to Han and Leia … or even try again with Ben however he could, etc. etc.)

See? It’s causing more problems than fixing it. Keeping it vague and more about WHAT he was coming, as the scene does, is the better option.

I get both sides of the Luke portrayal in TLJ and people can debate on what’s right and wrong about it, but quite frankly, both sides are right. (See what I did there 😃)

So keeping it as abstract as possible and not trying to connect it to any specific moments is best.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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FreezingTNT2 said:

The filmmakers could’ve given Luke a different motivation for staying on Ahch-To, while not having him be out-of-character, contradictory to his already-established character traits (like redeeming other family members) or undoing his arc from the original trilogy so they can re-do that arc all over again. I mean, why would he be looking for the first Jedi temple, as mentioned by Han in The Force Awakens?

the fact that people think “redeeming family members” is a character trait and not an action of pure good shows that it needed to be told this way xP

it’s not redo-ing a character arc if he learns and develops further than the original lesson

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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NFBisms said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

The filmmakers could’ve given Luke a different motivation for staying on Ahch-To, while not having him be out-of-character, contradictory to his already-established character traits (like redeeming other family members) or undoing his arc from the original trilogy so they can re-do that arc all over again. I mean, why would he be looking for the first Jedi temple, as mentioned by Han in The Force Awakens?

the fact that people think “redeeming family members” is a character trait and not an action of pure good shows that it needed to be told this way xP

it’s not redo-ing a character arc if he learns and develops further than the original lesson

The arc may have a different resolution, but it’s still mostly the same arc. Luke almost kills a family member, but realizes that he shouldn’t kill him. The scenes have different outcomes, but Luke has the same motivation. Luke renounced the darkness within him at the end of ROTJ, it doesn’t make sense for him to repeat the mistake he made with Vader. And I don’t think it “needed to be told this way,” there are a thousand other possible reasons for Luke’s exile that could have actually expanded his character instead of feeling like a regression.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

I absolutely agree on this one. While TLJ has its problems, Luke’s arc in the film very much moves his story forward. I personally don’t think adding something specific to what Luke says would be beneficial. If you want to accentuate what’s already there, that’s something worth considering, but it would need to be meaningful.