The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — Page 22

StarkillerAG said:

I disagree with that article completely. Rey Palpatine wasn’t done for any storytelling reason, it was just done to please people who were pissed that Rey was a nobody in TLJ.

It’s possible that it was initially conceived as a reaction to fan outrage (though I doubt it), but it absolutely serves a storytelling function. Destiny is not determined by lineage or the sins of the father. That’s Rey’s story (such as it is) and maybe the only thematic material we get in the whole movie. It’s not strong, but it’s there.

And I really don’t like Rey taking the Skywalker name without permission, just because some ghosts smiled at her. If Jeff Bezos smiled at me, would that mean I’m a billionaire? Rey’s arc in TROS makes no sense, and it devalues TLJ’s message that anyone can be a hero. It’s one of those moments that was clearly designed to be a dig at TLJ, like “Go away, Rose!” and “A Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect.”

Luke already passed the mantle to her in TLJ. Leia clearly has a maternal relationship with her in this movie, so it’s more than just smiling ghosts. Her choosing the name Skywalker is symbolic, it implies that she will continue the Skywalker legacy and reinforces the only theme in the movie of choosing your own path and not letting lineage define you.

Rey being a Palpatine is probably a regression, but her accepting the Skywalker name I think was inevitable and probably would have happened either way.

liamnotneeson said:

yotsuya said:

liamnotneeson said:

screams in the void said:

I found this to be an interesting perspective on the film …https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-important-thing-the-rise-of-skywalker-reinforc-1841069664

Read the article, and I gotta say that’s pretty dumb. I’ll explain how:

TLJ: Rey is nobody, just a random girl from a random planets, her parents were nobody and they don’t matter. Anyone can be a powerful Jedi.
TROS: Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine and she’s powerful because of her bloodline. In the end she chooses to take the name Skywalker because Luke and Leia Skywalker are who trained her.
Gizmodo: See? If TROS really wanted to reject TLJ they would have made Rey an actual Skywalker and have that be why she’s so powerful!

Making Rey the descendant of literally any character we know, regardless of who they are, is a rejection of TLJ. The only way to not recon TLJ is to accept that her parents are nobody and don’t matter, and to throw that mystery box away and not touch it for the rest of the trilogy.

I don’t see it that way. In fact, I see an interesting parallel to the OT. ANH: Luke, let’s kill off your only living family to make you go on this quest. TESB: Luke, well, actually, your father became Darth Vader. ROTJ: Luke, that girl you like and kissed, well, she is your sister. A lot of fans are still arguing about that one to this day. They thought the other should have been somone else, but the answer to why it is Leia is in the movie. What else would spark Luke’s rage? Vader senses his secret and threatens Leia and Luke loses it. The story required something personal enough for Luke to risk the dark side. The finale of the ST and saga required an epic villain and who better than Palpatine risen from the dead. And what better curve to throw Rey than to make her his granddaughter (I would have made her the great granddaughter). It questions every success she has had to this point and makes her doubt. It was a risky choice, but one I don’t feel negates TLJ’s message that anyone can be a Jedi. It solidified its own message with broom boy at the end. TROS has its own message, that we can overcome the faults of our ancestors. That we are not what our blood dictates. Our heroes are revealed to be a former stormtrooper, a former spice smuggler, and a Palpatine. Like Han in the OT, they overcame their past to be the heroes the galaxy needed.

1. I’m sure you’ll respond with some quip about how I’m not a really fan or part of the community or whatever but I’ve never heard debates about whether or not Leia should have been Luke’s sister.

Not my style. There are a lot of things in these films to disagree on.

2. No, there didn’t need to be an epic villain, and the Duel of the Fates script is evidence of that. Rian Johnson clearly was leading up for Kylo to be the antagonist in episode 9. Do something original and have the turning of the antagonist to the light be the conflict audiences care about, not just beating the same bad guy from the last 6 movies again.

I found it to be in keeping with the Flash Gordon origins of the saga. I liked it. I think ending with the the last of the Skywalkers unredeemed would have created worse backlash.

3. Yes, TROS does tell a different message than TLJ, that’s my point. It shouldn’t in regards to Rey because telling a different story requires changing Rey’s backstory. It throws Rey around all over the place with clearly no plan and it greatly dimishes her growth. Yes character growth is possible with a mystery backstory but it’s much more difficult (and these movies don’t pull it off), especially when who she is in the eyes of the audience changes very much between movies. I think you give these movies too much credit

Rey in TFA: A powerful scrapper girl from a junk planet whose parents, whom we don’t know, abandoned her.
Rey in TLJ: A powerful scrapper girl from a junk planet whose parents, whom we don’t know and who don’t matter, abandoned her.
Rey in TROS: The granddaughter of Emperor Palpatine who was left on a junk planet to protect her from her grandfather.

Luke in SW: A farmboy.
Luke in TESB: A farmboy-turned rebel, whose Father is Darth Vader.
Luke in ROTJ: A farmboy-turned rebel-turned Jedi, whose Father is Darth Vader, and sister is Leia.

See how these changes to Luke’s character are only additions to his character and not complete changes in the nature of the character and where they are from, and the nature of their strengths and what not? Leia being Luke’s sister doesn’t change how we see Luke like how Rey being the granddaughter of the greatest Sith Lord changes how we see Rey.

I would say that a lot of things in the ST got pushed back a film. JJ decided to push Luke’s reveal to the end of the first film resulting in the story I expected (where he dies in some great fashion) got pushed back to the second film. So the reveal here for Rey that she is a Palpatine is really an echo of Luke finding out his father became Darth Vader. So the things are not in the same order or proportion, but the same vein.

pleasehello said:

StarkillerAG said:

I disagree with that article completely. Rey Palpatine wasn’t done for any storytelling reason, it was just done to please people who were pissed that Rey was a nobody in TLJ.

It’s possible that it was initially conceived as a reaction to fan outrage (though I doubt it), but it absolutely serves a storytelling function. Destiny is not determined by lineage or the sins of the father. That’s Rey’s story (such as it is) and maybe the only thematic material we get in the whole movie. It’s not strong, but it’s there.

And I really don’t like Rey taking the Skywalker name without permission, just because some ghosts smiled at her. If Jeff Bezos smiled at me, would that mean I’m a billionaire? Rey’s arc in TROS makes no sense, and it devalues TLJ’s message that anyone can be a hero. It’s one of those moments that was clearly designed to be a dig at TLJ, like “Go away, Rose!” and “A Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect.”

Luke already passed the mantle to her in TLJ. Leia clearly has a maternal relationship with her in this movie, so it’s more than just smiling ghosts. Her choosing the name Skywalker is symbolic, it implies that she will continue the Skywalker legacy and reinforces the only theme in the movie of choosing your own path and not letting lineage define you.

Rey being a Palpatine is probably a regression, but her accepting the Skywalker name I think was inevitable and probably would have happened either way.

Yeah that’s sort of how I feel. Rey Palpatine is sort of the dumbed-down version of Rey’s preexisting trajectory - forging her own destiny without her bloodline defining her. The Skywalker thing definitely works, because the ultimate message of the film is “anyone can be a Skywalker/hero.” Which is nice, but of course, again it is a dumbed-down version of “anyone can have the Force.” Unfortunately that’s the aspect of Rey Nobody that’s glossed over in TROS. They had a chance to save themselves a bit with Finn’s storyline but that’s too much of a mess to have any meaning behind it.

Yes.

OutboundFlight said:

Am I the only one who feels Rey Palpatine is far more compelling than “Rey nobody”?

I find them equally compelling.

OutboundFlight said:

Am I the only one who feels Rey Palpatine is far more compelling than “Rey nobody”?

Yes, because of her power levels. I love the idea of Rey Nobody because I never truly liked the idea of Force genetics, but this simply doesn’t fit with her godlike abilities. Plus her obvious anger when she kicked Kylo’s butt in TFA made me think she was accessing the Dark Side pretty strongly. I think the Rey Palpatine stuff - especially the accidental Force Lightning bit - made great sense. Just being a Skywalker or a Kenobi wouldn’t have cut it for me, but Sith powers and descendants are such an unknown quantity in the movies (not talking EU here) so it’s a nice fit. Having Palpatine as a kind of gothic sorcerer with his Gregorian chanting acolytes really added to the vibe of this for me.

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

NeverarGreat said:

Rey would have been the first lead with no baggage with regard to lineage or prophecy, and that was so refreshing.

Not just that surface level characteristic either, they made the fact intergral to the thematic messaging of the trilogy and her character arc. Well, until TROS undid it.

Also, the trilogy already had a potential hero from Sith heritage.

OutboundFlight said:

Am I the only one who feels Rey Palpatine is far more compelling than “Rey nobody”?

Should have been Rey Skywalker from the get-go. But they just had to do the mystery box thing, because then your narrative ideas don’t get so easily challenged right away.

Rey nobody is the second best, though.

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

OutboundFlight said:

Am I the only one who feels Rey Palpatine is far more compelling than “Rey nobody”?

Nope. I think the same thing.

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:

-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.

Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.

Then so does Luke. Don’t confuse mythic hero and Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a fan insert into a story. I’d like to know what fan Lucas and Abrams had in mind as the character was created and developed. It is a trick that most writers insert themselves into their stories in some way. Good writers do it in a way that you don’t see. Fan Fiction is often some of the first work of budding writers and is where you find the Mary Sue character - the all too obvious writer-as-character who does things too well. In the OT, Han Solo is the Lucas figure. I couldn’t say what Abrams was thinking. But it is pretty hard to have an actual Mary Sue in a mains stream production. Usually you get a point of view character or something to better relate.

And you missed about the rocks on Crait. She lifted the Anakin/Luke lightsaber in TFA. And as Yoda said, size matters not, so if you can lift a lightsaber, you can lift an X-Wing or a pile of rocks. As for the healing, as we see it drain Kylo to death, I think it is safe to say it from the most secret of Jedi texts that they did not share with just anyone. The inexperienced could easily spend themself healing and die. So not having seen it before is not really surprising. And as I said, it all started when Kylo tried to read her mind. Everything she does after that we can blame on that (for lack of a better word) mind-meld. Kylo has inadvertently been teaching her since they met. A true Mary Sue would know things only a fan would know and would inappropriately save the day… every time. Rey doesn’t do that. People who call Rey a Mary Sue don’t really know what a Mary Sue is. It is not just an overpowerd and successful character. Marvel would be full of those. We have three unlikely heroes in Star Wars, a slave boy, a farm boy, and a junk girl. Which one is the most over powered? Anakin at 9 is a pod racer, pilot, robot builder, and mechanic and saves the day with a lucky shot. He is far closer to a Mary Sue (though he isn’t one) than Rey ever was.

In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.

Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

In my opinion the “Mary Sue” stuff is absolute bullshit that has now seeped into the movies itself. The urge to pacify crying fans is the reason we’re now left with the fan wanking trash that is Rey Palpatine.

Though I suppose the only casualty is the integrity of Rey’s character, and who cares about that when you finally have an explanation for how “OP” she is! The saga is saved!

I don’t think you should blame it on the fans. None of the fans who hated Rey Nobody like Rey Palpatine. They see it for what it is: a misguided attempt to please everyone that resulted in the sequel trilogy having no clear direction.

They’re the cause, whether they like how it ended up or not. JJ and Terrio bought into the argument that Rey’s character progression should treat her like a video game character, not a human being. They ruined her arc for the sake of fans, and so every fan who complained Rey was “OP” deserved the shitty explanation they got.