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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 61

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nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I would find a conflicted Anakin ghost distasteful, as it would severely undermine the ending of ROTJ, which has always been one of my favorite things about SW.

JEDIT: Dom, you make a fair point about the realism, but I do like it a great deal for the archetypical value. It’s more about Luke at that point than Anakin per se. I suppose it’s one of many things that pervade SW with more symbolic value than realistic or intricate.

For me it’s not a matter of realism. It’s a matter of character and story, and I feel it’s fitting for neither. Maybe after ANH it would be okay, but ESB expands beyond mere fairy tale and simple black and white morality. The dark side is serious business and in my mind it’s stronger if Luke has to live without his father as a reminder of where that path takes you than being able to chat with him whenever. Anakin’s death is a lot more effective if we know this is the only chance either of them actually got to speak with each other. For Anakin, after the PT and the “tragedy” of Darth Vader, it feels very wrong for Anakin to turn around and end up with the “cheating death” that sent him down the dark path in the first place. In my mind there’s no poetic justice when he’s 100% forgiven for his misdeeds so easily.

I think it’s just a way to try to recapture the excitement and elation of the throne room finale of ANH, but by this point the saga has evolved and gained a depth that doesn’t support the sort of non-bitter totally sweet celebratory ending of ROTJ.

To bring this back on topic, if IX has an over the top fairy tale happy ending, I don’t think that’s the emotion I’ll necessarily be feeling.

Redemption and forgiveness have always been some of the most important and relevant themes of Star Wars.

But there is such a thing as pushing it too far.

The Star Wars films have always echoed one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUTPdeuh0e8

Again, but this time I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is that Star Wars is not about lust or revenge, it’s about redemption, love, and understanding about how good people can go down dark paths. Anakin turned to the Dark Side due to lust of power and the misconceptions that the Jedi didn’t trust him as one of them. He came back because of his son, and sacrificed himself to save Luke. Ben, on the other hand, was lonely, isolated, and for the most part, betrayed by his family. I believe his redemption is more needed than Anakin’s because of how much younger and inexperienced he is compared to his grandfather, as well as the sad events that have occurred in his life. If he does come back to the Light, it is highly likely that he does not die. He hasn’t had a complete story/life yet. There is still more to tell with him, especially with the interesting relationship that has developed between him and Rey.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? You’re not saying anything I disagree with.

I’m just stating the meaning that Star Wars has had as well as my feelings. Are you saying that you did not like the themes of redemption and Vader’s redemption in Return of the Jedi?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I just disagree with giving him a force ghost.

Why, though? He died as a hero and I believe Obi-Wan and Yoda allowed him to become a visible spirit in the Force.

See my previous posts today on the subject.

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Another possibility is seeing Anakin in a Force vision. They did almost use a ESB Luke double for Rey’s vision of Bespin in TFA.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Another possibility is seeing Anakin in a Force vision. They did almost use a ESB Luke double for Rey’s vision of Bespin in TFA.

Isn’t that just crazy that this image got leaked. I’m a bit surprised we at least didn’t see hear Luke and Vader’s sabers clashing as the sounds echo down the hallway, even if we didn’t see them fighting behind Rey. I still think they should’ve added a young Ben Solo looking up at Snoke that Rey sees down the hallway like it was described in the novelization.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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 (Edited)

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

What we do need however is a ghost or vision of some kind. I’m thinking Kylo seeing the past, and feeling regret. He dreams about his parents and his uncle. Something he buried under all the rage. And then he realises he screwed up. Get all three classic main characters in one last scene, something special. Then he can die.

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Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

What we do need however is a ghost or vision of some kind. I’m thinking Kylo seeing the past, and feeling regret. He dreams about his parents and his uncle. Something he buried under all the rage. And then he realises he screwed up. Get all three classic main characters in one last scene, something special. Then he can die.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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I’ve always wondered what force ghosts do with their time. Are they always waiting around until they’re needed? Do they hang out in an actual afterlife setting that we can’t see?

The only places we’ve physically seen force ghosts are Dagobah, Endor, and Ach-To. Two of those are planets with strong ties to the force. Yes, Ben appears to Luke on Hoth, but I think we can agree that it was taking him some effort to project himself since he was hazey. The only times we’ve only heard force ghosts were on the Death Star immediately after Ben vanished, and Takodana when Rey touched Anakin’s lightsaber. Again, it was Obi-Wan’s voice, although I’m pretty sure we can assume Rey had no clue anybody from beyond was talking to her. In TLJ novelization, Luke hears an unknown voice (likely Anakin) as he disappears.

In one of the Legends books (I forget the name) Leia sees Anakin’s force ghost, but again I forget where.

Other instances in The Clone Wars involved Qui-Gon on Mortis to Obi-Wan and Anakin, and the Jedi Temple to Yoda - where he physically interacted with Yoda by levitating him and his surroundings. Qui-Gon also speaks to Yoda right after Luke and Leia are born in a deleted scene.

If they only appear to people who know them in this canon, that makes more sense as to why they don’t solve every problem and something that people need to understand so they don’t go “why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda just destroy The Emperor and the 2nd Death Star?”

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nl0428 said:

Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

What we do need however is a ghost or vision of some kind. I’m thinking Kylo seeing the past, and feeling regret. He dreams about his parents and his uncle. Something he buried under all the rage. And then he realises he screwed up. Get all three classic main characters in one last scene, something special. Then he can die.

I think there was a rumor recently about Han being seen again in a flashback, but the internet is spilling over with Episode IX rumors of all kinds at this point, mostly from click-bait sorts of sites.

And that gif is going to haunt my dreams for a while. What’s scary is I think I know where that doll comes from. 😮

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Lesser said:

I’ve always wondered what force ghosts do with their time. Are they always waiting around until they’re needed? Do they hang out in an actual afterlife setting that we can’t see?

The only places we’ve physically seen force ghosts are Dagobah, Endor, and Ach-To. Two of those are planets with strong ties to the force. Yes, Ben appears to Luke on Hoth, but I think we can agree that it was taking him some effort to project himself since he was hazey. The only times we’ve only heard force ghosts were on the Death Star immediately after Ben vanished, and Takodana when Rey touched Anakin’s lightsaber. Again, it was Obi-Wan’s voice, although I’m pretty sure we can assume Rey had no clue anybody from beyond was talking to her. In TLJ novelization, Luke hears an unknown voice (likely Anakin) as he disappears.

In one of the Legends books (I forget the name) Leia sees Anakin’s force ghost, but again I forget where.

Other instances in The Clone Wars involved Qui-Gon on Mortis to Obi-Wan and Anakin, and the Jedi Temple to Yoda - where he physically interacted with Yoda by levitating him and his surroundings. Qui-Gon also speaks to Yoda right after Luke and Leia are born in a deleted scene.

If they only appear to people who know them in this canon, that makes more sense as to why they don’t solve every problem and something that people need to understand so they don’t go “why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda just destroy The Emperor and the 2nd Death Star?”

And Luke was on the verge of freezing to death when he did see Ben. Obi Wan was back to being a voice when Luke gets to Dagobah, but becomes very visible when Luke leaves, implying Jedi training helps with seeing Force ghosts.

The Force afterlife is either a non-corporeal existence of pure energy and thought, or it’s like Beetlejuice. 😉

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

nl0428 said:

Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

What we do need however is a ghost or vision of some kind. I’m thinking Kylo seeing the past, and feeling regret. He dreams about his parents and his uncle. Something he buried under all the rage. And then he realises he screwed up. Get all three classic main characters in one last scene, something special. Then he can die.

I think there was a rumor recently about Han being seen again in a flashback, but the internet is spilling over with Episode IX rumors of all kinds at this point, mostly from click-bait sorts of sites.

And that gif is going to haunt my dreams for a while. What’s scary is I think I know where that doll comes from. 😮

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean for something like that to happen to you.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

nl0428 said:

Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

What we do need however is a ghost or vision of some kind. I’m thinking Kylo seeing the past, and feeling regret. He dreams about his parents and his uncle. Something he buried under all the rage. And then he realises he screwed up. Get all three classic main characters in one last scene, something special. Then he can die.

I think there was a rumor recently about Han being seen again in a flashback, but the internet is spilling over with Episode IX rumors of all kinds at this point, mostly from click-bait sorts of sites.

And that gif is going to haunt my dreams for a while. What’s scary is I think I know where that doll comes from. 😮

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean for something like that to happen to you.

Oh no! I’m just kidding. I knew I should have gone with the wink. 😉

Those Mattel Sunshine Family dolls have creepy soulless eyes though…

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Where were you in '77?

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I wish Force Ghosts had never been ‘explained’ (ie “an old friend has come back from the netherworld…etc etc”). That way it would all be ambiguous and we could see it however we wish.

BTW back in '83 I thought Anakin was appearing to Luke in Tatooine farmer apparel (it never occurred to me that Lucas intended Obi Wan’s desert wear to be actual Jedi garb!) - a kind of symbolic return to his pre-Darkside humble beginnings rather than a demonstration of Jedi enlightenment.

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That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

I loved what Hal 9000 did with his edit of Revenge of the Sith by adding in that dialogue from lines Liam Neeson recorded for Clone Wars.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

I loved what Hal 9000 did with his edit of Revenge of the Sith by adding in that dialogue from lines Liam Neeson recorded for Clone Wars.

Wait, that happened? I don’t remember it, and it’s not in the Fanedit.org change list.

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Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

I loved what Hal 9000 did with his edit of Revenge of the Sith by adding in that dialogue from lines Liam Neeson recorded for Clone Wars.

Wait, that happened? I don’t remember it, and it’s not in the Fanedit.org change list.

It’s not listed, but he did add in Qui-Gon’s line, “Yoda. My old friend. Come to Dagobah. You must complete what I could not.”

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

I loved what Hal 9000 did with his edit of Revenge of the Sith by adding in that dialogue from lines Liam Neeson recorded for Clone Wars.

Wait, that happened? I don’t remember it, and it’s not in the Fanedit.org change list.

It’s not listed, but he did add in Qui-Gon’s line, “Yoda. My old friend. Come to Dagobah. You must complete what I could not.”

Found it. That’s pretty cool, and fits extremely well.

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Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

That Liam Neeson wasn’t able to record a voiceover for that scene in Episode III made Yoda’s mention of it to Obi Wan all the more cryptic and confusing.
Not sure I want to see Obi Wan communing with Qui-Gon’s ghost in the rumored Kenobi series either.

I loved what Hal 9000 did with his edit of Revenge of the Sith by adding in that dialogue from lines Liam Neeson recorded for Clone Wars.

Wait, that happened? I don’t remember it, and it’s not in the Fanedit.org change list.

It’s not listed, but he did add in Qui-Gon’s line, “Yoda. My old friend. Come to Dagobah. You must complete what I could not.”

Found it. That’s pretty cool, and fits extremely well.

I agree. It fills in a plot hole the film originally had.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

I’ve always assumed the tragedy of Vader was the entire saga. It just isn’t as obvious in the ST.

The Prequels are about Anakain’s fall, the Originals Anakin’s dark deeds and eventually redeemption. I think the Sequels are about Anakin’s legacy.

Kylo is motivated by Vader, hence the “tradegy” continues. Buy Rey is motivated by Luke, who was by extension motivated by Anakin. These two sides are conflicting.

With that in mind I hope for Hayden to return and play a vital role in redeeming Kylo (alongside Rey of course). Therefore closing the tradegy of Darth Vader.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:

The Prequels are about Anakain’s fall, the Originals Anakin’s dark deeds and eventually redeemption. I think the Sequels are about Anakin’s legacy.

Although I am against having Anakin return in any form, this is an interesting point.

In fact more broadly the Sequels are concerned with legacy and legends, while the prequels were concerned with visions and prophecy. Both look to the originals for their power.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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OutboundFlight said:

Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

I’ve always assumed the tragedy of Vader was the entire saga.

I’ve always presumed this was a BS retcon.

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OutboundFlight said:

Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader, something that is so played out and over done that it’s a toy selling joke at this stage. The tragedy of Vader gimme a break.

I’ve always assumed the tragedy of Vader was the entire saga. It just isn’t as obvious in the ST.

The Prequels are about Anakain’s fall, the Originals Anakin’s dark deeds and eventually redeemption. I think the Sequels are about Anakin’s legacy.

Kylo is motivated by Vader, hence the “tradegy” continues. Buy Rey is motivated by Luke, who was by extension motivated by Anakin. These two sides are conflicting.

With that in mind I hope for Hayden to return and play a vital role in redeeming Kylo (alongside Rey of course). Therefore closing the tradegy of Darth Vader.

The entire saga, while it does follow the Skywalker family, hence the reason why some call it the “Skywalker Saga”, does have specific focuses for each trilogy. The prequels were about the brotherly relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, the originals were about the family relationship between Luke and Vader, and the sequels are about the struggling and developing romance between Rey and Kylo Ren.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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The thing that has bothered me since the PT is that if becoming one with the force and becoming a force ghost is something that you have to learn, how did Anakin accomplish it? The PT sets it up that this is something Ben and Yoda have to learn and that Qui-gon didn’t manage to learn it completely. So how does Anakin do it? Did he start looking into it after Ben vanished? Or is it because he is the chosen one? If he is the chosen one his job isn’t finished and he should appear in this last film. To me, the ST doesn’t exist to close out the story from the OT, but to wrap up the extended story that the PT started. To me balance in the force mans light and dark sides together. The concept of the force being out of balance seems to originate with TPM and the PT doesn’t really give enough for it to feel balanced after ROTJ. At that point all the good and bad of old have been wiped away and there is just Luke. But to really finish off the story as it was expanded in the PT, we really needed to see how it gets balanced and the current story seems to be headed that way. TLJ was filled with it and so was TFA. So even if the title of the episode isn’t Balance of the Force, I expect that to be a one line summary of the story.

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yotsuya said:

The thing that has bothered me since the PT is that if becoming one with the force and becoming a force ghost is something that you have to learn, how did Anakin accomplish it? The PT sets it up that this is something Ben and Yoda have to learn and that Qui-gon didn’t manage to learn it completely. So how does Anakin do it? Did he start looking into it after Ben vanished? Or is it because he is the chosen one? If he is the chosen one his job isn’t finished and he should appear in this last film. To me, the ST doesn’t exist to close out the story from the OT, but to wrap up the extended story that the PT started. To me balance in the force mans light and dark sides together. The concept of the force being out of balance seems to originate with TPM and the PT doesn’t really give enough for it to feel balanced after ROTJ. At that point all the good and bad of old have been wiped away and there is just Luke. But to really finish off the story as it was expanded in the PT, we really needed to see how it gets balanced and the current story seems to be headed that way. TLJ was filled with it and so was TFA. So even if the title of the episode isn’t Balance of the Force, I expect that to be a one line summary of the story.

I believe Anakin was able to appear because Obi-Wan and Yoda gave helped him learn. There was an older novel called The Story of Darth Vader from 2008 that ended with Anakin crying to Obi-Wan after dying, and Kenobi allowed Skywalker to become one with the Force so he could see Luke again.

The name’s Lawson. Noah Lawson.

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yotsuya said:

To me balance in the force mans light and dark sides together. The concept of the force being out of balance seems to originate with TPM and the PT doesn’t really give enough for it to feel balanced after ROTJ. At that point all the good and bad of old have been wiped away and there is just Luke. But to really finish off the story as it was expanded in the PT, we really needed to see how it gets balanced and the current story seems to be headed that way. TLJ was filled with it and so was TFA. So even if the title of the episode isn’t Balance of the Force, I expect that to be a one line summary of the story.

One thing, don’t mean to come off rude, but the light side and dark side of the force do not equal balance. The dark side is a corruption that will always create imbalance. Balance is recognizing the dark side within all things, and accepting it’s existence, in order to fulfill self satisfaction, because there is no way anything can be ultimately good in nature. It’s not the same as actively using the light and dark side of the force. Yoda finds inner peace and enlightenment in The Clone Wars when he battles his inner demons to find acceptance (his final arch in Season 6). To morph the message into “the dark and light side of the force together is true balance” is like saying “kids, it’s okay to do drugs half of your time, because that’s the proper way of living.” (Because Star Wars is a story of children).