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Is Revenge of the Sith the Best or Worst Prequel? — Page 8

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dahmage said:

TL;DR

Intention matters, but the end result also matters.

Pretty much this. It’s silly to ignore one and focus entirely on the other, and vice versa.

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Okay but can you guys stop saying that cloud isn’t Winnie the Pooh? The truth is there for all to see it and it’s definitely pooh and it’s no accident.

Satan: “The wonderful thing about Tiggers is Tiggers are wonderful things!”
God: “Oh bother.”

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NeverarGreat said:

chyron8472 said:

I seriously don’t see how The Phantom Menace is more watchable than Revenge of the Sith. Nothing happens in TPM that we care about; and Jar Jar and TPM-Anakin’s acting are not more watchable than ROTS-Anakin’s acting.

It depends greatly on our own point of view. If you’re looking at it from the perspective of the overall story of the saga, sure it’s fairly superfluous. But taken in isolation, [TPM]'s a grand, impressive, and weird sci-fi movie that just happens to take place in the Star Wars universe where ROTS tries so much to tie into the OT that it can’t help but be lessened by the comparison.

TPM is better in isolation than ROTS is in isolation because ROTS tries to tie into the OT…?

They’re called Episodes I and III. They’re not in isolation. They, on purpose, are supposed to tie into the OT.
Comparing Episode I in isolation is not the same thing as taking Rogue One in isolation because it’s not supposed to be a standalone film. As such, isolation ought not to be the only metric used. Even if TPM can subjectively be considered a better film by some, it’s definitely not a better prequel.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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Possessed said:

Okay but can you guys stop saying that cloud is Winnie the Pooh? The truth is there for all to see it and it’s definitely pooh and it’s no accident.

Satan: “The wonderful thing about Tiggers is Tiggers are wonderful things!”
God: “Oh bother.”

I ALLOLed.

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Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

LoL…I realize that. That’s why I said a “really bad” attempt of the character. My point is that Gunray sounds very cliched as an Asian speaking English. The Chan character was played by more than a couple of actors just an FYI. He was played by white guys for the most part just as Gunray was played by a white Englishman.

Look, it’s obvious we have kind of met in the middle. We both agree none of this was intentionally racist or even a good example of stereotypes in some cases. The issue for me is that enough people like myself have seen these movies and did see some quite startling stereotypes that made us uncomfortable.

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

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Creox said:

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

It’s my hope filmmakers set those concerns aside rather than compromise their creativity in order to satisfy white people who see racism everywhere.

I’ll defer to Dom since he’s the OP, but perhaps this discussion is better suited to the culture/politics thread than this one:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Culture-politics-and-diversity-in-Star-Wars/id/61333

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MTFBWY…A

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Creox said:

Look, it’s obvious we have kind of met in the middle. We both agree none of this was intentionally racist or even a good example of stereotypes in some cases. The issue for me is that enough people like myself have seen these movies and did see some quite startling stereotypes that made us uncomfortable.

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

Agreed.

Some real-life comparisons will always accompany alien characters such as Tuskens, Hutts, Neimoidians, etc. for a multitude of reasons (that we have both suggested); whether through artistic laziness, artistic imitation of old insensitive films, coincidence, or even pareidolia. But I completely agree that regardless of why/how a character (like Watto) ended up being as they are, it couldn’t have hurt for Lucas and his team to have listened to some proper feedback and then made a few minor adjustments. I’ve harped a lot on the importance of intent (though we seem to agree on that point), however I’m not completely ignoring the importance of outcome.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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Creox said:

Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

LoL…I realize that. That’s why I said a “really bad” attempt of the character. My point is that Gunray sounds very cliched as an Asian speaking English.

He sounds like a bad English dub from a 1960s Toho movie.

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Mocata said:

Creox said:

Really? This guy? I don’t see how he even even barely resembles Gunray. The voice is wrong, the intonations are completely different, and Gunray actually does the grammar properly whereas Chan skips entire words.

LoL…I realize that. That’s why I said a “really bad” attempt of the character. My point is that Gunray sounds very cliched as an Asian speaking English.

He sounds like a bad English dub from a 1960s Toho movie.

I keep expecting him to threaten to unleash Rodan and King Gidorah on Naboo if Padme doesn’t sign the treaty. 😛

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I don’t know. I haven’t seen it in so long but the scene where Anakin is alone in the council chamber and Padme is at their apartment and they stare out of their windows is probably the best scene of the whole PT. I know that in a lot of ways that’s a low bar, but I think it’s great and I’m being serious when I say that that scene is as well done as anything in the OT.

The Person in Question

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That is a good sequence. And not a CGI creature in sight. It felt like old school George was there for a moment.

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Where were you in '77?

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moviefreakedmind said:

I don’t know. I haven’t seen it in so long but the scene where Anakin is alone in the council chamber and Padme is at their apartment and they stare out of their windows is probably the best scene of the whole PT. I know that in a lot of ways that’s a low bar, but I think it’s great and I’m being serious when I say that that scene is as well done as anything in the OT.

It’s actually better than most of the OT. How often can you say that anything in Star Wars even approaches ‘haunting’ as an apt descriptor?

I mean, other than Force Ghosts.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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It’s definitely more powerful than most of the original film. It just goes to show that one scene can’t make a movie, no matter how good it is. To be fair, though, I have to say that at least 80% of why that scene is so great is the score.

The Person in Question

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It would be nicer if Anakin showed even a hint of remorse or inner conflict for the rest of the film.

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Well, Mace was kind of a dick towards him, and those younglings were asking for it. Never put sand in Anakin’s lunch. 😛

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The only bad part of that scene is the added V.O of Palpatine.

Unpopular opinion:

Battle of the Heroes is a fine song, but it’s too bombastic and out of tone for the scene it’s in.

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Jay said:

Creox said:

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

It’s my hope filmmakers set those concerns aside rather than compromise their creativity in order to satisfy white people who see racism everywhere.

I’ll defer to Dom since he’s the OP, but perhaps this discussion is better suited to the culture/politics thread than this one:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Culture-politics-and-diversity-in-Star-Wars/id/61333

It’s definitely not just “white people,” but you’re right, this is way off topic now.

Thankfully it seems people have moved on.

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NeverarGreat said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I don’t know. I haven’t seen it in so long but the scene where Anakin is alone in the council chamber and Padme is at their apartment and they stare out of their windows is probably the best scene of the whole PT. I know that in a lot of ways that’s a low bar, but I think it’s great and I’m being serious when I say that that scene is as well done as anything in the OT.

It’s actually better than most of the OT.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. No scene can be truly great without solid context to back it up.

Mocata said:

SilverWook said:

That is a good sequence. And not a CGI creature in sight.

No dialogue in the script either.

Unfortunately Palpatine has an unnecessary VO that kills it.

JEDIT: beat by snooker

snooker said:

The only bad part of that scene is the added V.O of Palpatine.

Unpopular opinion:

Battle of the Heroes is a fine song, but it’s too bombastic and out of tone for the scene it’s in.

I agree completely.

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Jay said:

Creox said:

My last words on the topic is that there will always be such issues from time to time because, as you say, film makers borrow all the time from each other. It is my hope that they will take a little extra time to minimize the potential problems their creations can produce.

It’s my hope filmmakers set those concerns aside rather than compromise their creativity in order to satisfy white people who see racism everywhere.

I’ll defer to Dom since he’s the OP, but perhaps this discussion is better suited to the culture/politics thread than this one:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Culture-politics-and-diversity-in-Star-Wars/id/61333

I will check out that link…thanks. FTR I think you’re off base with your assumption but so be it.

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“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

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snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

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DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

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What’s hilarious is once Anakin has turned that first moral corner, Palpatine essentially fesses up that he actually doesn’t know how to keep Padme from dying.
But Anakin keeps on Sithing with the vague B.S. promise from Palpy they’ll find the secret out together. How? If Palpy didn’t learn it from Plagueis already, I don’t think he ever would.
And since Anakin’s visions revolve around Padme dying in childbirth, there isn’t exactly a whole lot of time to find the secret, if it exists at all.

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