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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 63

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NFBisms said:

^ In hindsight, I think that supposed to be a cheeky Hardware Wars reference. LOL

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

Ocrop27 said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.

People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.

He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.

Yeah, but that’s what I don’t buy. How is the galaxy better off without him? What could be worse than the Empire he helped bring down? What could be worse than allowing his nephew and his new master to restore that tyranny? How can that be protecting the galaxy? It just doesn’t make any sense.

I mean, as much as I disagree with the “Jedi are bad” crowd, there were some flaws in the Jedi’s dogmatic ways, and I suppose Luke was basing it off of that. Giving people the ability to tap into that much power is dangerous in and of itself, and Luke didn’t want to spread the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo Ren. Maybe “noble act of protection” was a poor choice of words, but his hiding himself and trying to end the Jedi for good is rooted in some hero complex where he believed the galaxy was better off without a group of people having that power. The force belongs to no one. Violence begets violence. That whole thing.

That still doesn’t make much sense. Snoke and Kylo are still out there, so by ending the Jedi, and taking himself out of the equation, he ensures a future dark side cult will rule the galaxy for all eternity. At that point he’s still the most powerful Jedi in existence, and so even if he had decided that the Jedi should end with him, there’s no reason for him to not do everything in his power to stop Snoke and Kylo together with the Resistance. If they succeeded, he could go to an island to die, ending the Jedi in an era of peace. If they failed, he would be dead, and the net result would be no different than if he immediately went to an island to die. Seems pretty logical to me, that he really only had one choice, and that’s to take on the FO. Anything else is madness.

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Matt.F said:

DrDre said:

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but this really grinds my gears. Just to point out how poorly concieved TLJ is, and how it undermines the earlier films, here’s an image:

The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.


-Edit-

DrDre, I accidentally added my comments to your post when I meant to quote. I’ve restored your post and quoted further down the page. That’s the reason it shows your post was edited. Sorry about that.
Anchorhead

DrDre, once again you’re nitpicking in an overtly pedantic fashion simply designed to pick apart The Last Jedi, and you’re being blinkered to the fact that the Star Wars Saga has always been a space ‘fantasy’ rather than sci-fi.

I’ve already given ample explanation why the argument against Rey’s sudden Force powers is anything but pedantic, but if you want to accept such blatant disregard for Lucas’ creation and the subtext, and themes therein, in order to endorse what I percieve to be an endless string of ever more diluted copies of an original creation, be my guest.

If you’d been the man you are now the first time you had seen Empire Strikes Back then I am sure you would be the one telling everyone how ridiculous it was that the Snowspeeders kept flying in front of the AT AT Walkers, when all they needed to do was flank around and attack them from the rear. They would have had all day to shoot them and fire their cables.

I’m getting a bit tired of you playing it ad hominum. Restrict your comments to the films. Those are the rules of this forum. You would do well to read, and digest them. Perhaps it would be a good idea to come up with a good counterargument, rather than mostly restricting yourself to qualifying other people’s arguments.

What’s to stop some of those AT AT’s from just turning around and shooting the snow speeders coming from the rear, while the rest just march on to the base? The speeders still have to fly around the AT AT’s to use the cables, and shooting the AT AT’s has little effect on their armor, unless they manage to get them to the ground.

If you’d been the man you are now you’d have failed to accept that Han, Chewie and Leia could have walked around in the Slug cave ‘in space’ without suits on.

This is a space fantasy, all you’re doing is killing it for yourself and others.

I can accept people walking around in a space slug, which apparently have some sort of atmosphere inside their bodies, if those are the in-universe rules. I can’t accept people walking around in a space slug in one film, and then not being able to walk in a space slug in the next film, which you seem prepared to do.

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DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

^ In hindsight, I think that supposed to be a cheeky Hardware Wars reference. LOL

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

Ocrop27 said:

NFBisms said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This was a quote I read from someone and I agree with it very much:

Sad that in the end people just throw their hands up and say "doesn’t work for you, works for me, oh well."
Good storytelling transcends subjective solipsism. The fact of the matter is that Luke’s actions in this film were not built up to in the previous films at all, and his character is a very severe departure from what he was. He also represents a bold new moral view of this universe, from the makers of this film, which is almost too sad to describe.
Art is an extension of worldview. It taps into what matters most to us. Lucas showed what matters most to him. And what was done to that worldview, and what worldview has replaced it, is chilly in the extreme. I certainly won’t be anxious to show this film to my children, when I have them. 1-6, sure. I do not agree with the values of this film, or the worldview it presents though. It seems cynical, poisonous and nihilistic, especially in light of what came before.
You may enjoy that if you like but there is no denying the shift that occurs. Anyone who denies that shift is very likely blind to the themes of these films.

I don’t want to be that guy, but I’m kind of tired of people overlooking my posts, and I do want to discuss this.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1146676

I don’t believe TLJ is that cynical, and I liked it, and it makes me disappointed that there are seemingly only a few camps that we can exist in in terms of opinion.

I don’t think that the moral values of it are even really that different or worse from or than the OT when you think about it. I think everyone saying that the Jedi are actually evil or bad for the Galaxy because of their dogma are way off base with what the movie was trying to say.

In the end, there’s a hero in all of us. You’re not defined by your failures. Trying to be the hero doesn’t make it so. Forging your own legends is more selfish than it is heroic. Sometimes just doing the right thing is enough to make a difference. All of these, I’d be fine with my children (lol if I had any) learning. I think there’s a lot here that is more important to learn than what the OT can teach, if anything.

People say that he would never try to kill ben, and i agree, but the thing is that he actualy did’t. For a second he ignites he’s light saber and think about not letting a second vader exist, but then realised what he was doing. That doesn’t make him fail as a jedi, since we already seen this same scenario in ROTJ where luke choses to not strike his father. What i am saying is that Luke was never a one dimesional character and so isn’t old Luke. He is not perfect, he is no god or messiah, but in the end he goes to help his frieds, like he always did, only more grown and sure of what he is doing.

He did fail, though. That is failure. Especially after all we know about him and his ideals. He exiles himself because he thinks the galaxy is better off without him, that he will only let them down, and that him and the Jedi Order would only do more damage. But that’s the crux of his arc in the movie, learning that that failure doesn’t define him or his capability to do good, and that his exile in the end wasn’t some noble act of protection for the galaxy.

Yeah, but that’s what I don’t buy. How is the galaxy better off without him? What could be worse than the Empire he helped bring down? What could be worse than allowing his nephew and his new master to restore that tyranny? How can that be protecting the galaxy? It just doesn’t make any sense.

I mean, as much as I disagree with the “Jedi are bad” crowd, there were some flaws in the Jedi’s dogmatic ways, and I suppose Luke was basing it off of that. Giving people the ability to tap into that much power is dangerous in and of itself, and Luke didn’t want to spread the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo Ren. Maybe “noble act of protection” was a poor choice of words, but his hiding himself and trying to end the Jedi for good is rooted in some hero complex where he believed the galaxy was better off without a group of people having that power. The force belongs to no one. Violence begets violence. That whole thing.

That still doesn’t make much sense. Snoke and Kylo are still out there, so by ending the Jedi, and taking himself out of the equation, he ensures a future dark side cult will rule the galaxy for all eternity. At that point he’s still the most powerful Jedi in existence, and so even if he had decided that the Jedi should end with him, there’s no reason for him to not do everything in his power to stop Snoke and Kylo together with the Resistance. If they succeeded, he could go to an island to die, ending the Jedi in an era of peace. If they failed, he would be dead, and the net result would be no different than if he immediately went to an island to die. Seems pretty logical to me, that he really only had one choice, and that’s to take on the FO. Anything else is madness.

“To say that because the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity.” -Luke Skywalker, 2k17

People like Leia, hell maybe exactly Leia, was probably what Luke was counting on. Just because he and the Jedi aren’t there, doesn’t mean there aren’t heroes or good people - the light side of the force - in the galaxy. If the FO did eventually become a problem, which they weren’t at the time, he expected Leia and those hypothetical heroes to rise to save the day. I’m not saying he wasn’t misguided in his thinking or not a cynical jaded ass, but to him, staying out of it and preventing further darkness was the best thing he could do. He’s the one who failed Ben, the galaxy, and himself. He didn’t think he could be the hero the galaxy needed him to be, and his being there would only fuel Ben’s dark side.

And the whole point, is that he’s wrong about most of that.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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In theory every ship in Star Wars can be autopiloted saving millions of lives. In theory every trooper can be a robot. What a nightmare fuel prequel movie that would be.

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Ha, Dre - you’ve proven nothing!

You have an issue with Rey, but Luke did his “massive” Dagobah training in what… around 48 hours or so.

It’s true, if you applied your level of nitpicking to Empire Strikes Back you’d rip it to shreds but saying that The Last Jedi fails is ‘selective’ in the extreme.

My suggestion for those grown men who choose to nitpick - and I don’t know whether this applies to yourself or not, this is a general suggestion - would be to go and watch the movie with children. Whether your own kids or a nephew, and see it through their eyes. It might make you remember some of the magic and escapism you felt when you first watched ESB as a child.

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Funny, my 8 year old brother when we first watched it said something along the lines of, “I don’t get it…” when the movie ended.

The Rise of Failures

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A lot of people have been criticizing the ideas behind TLJ, but I actually really disagree on that point.
I think it’s great to bring different perspectives on established ideas in media. I especially love it when the series is self-aware enough to do it on its own. Theoretically having a character be critical of the Jedi and in the end reject their ways is a great idea that allows the world to be even more fleshed out and feel more real to the viewer.

This is going to get off topic, but I believe this post will put into perspective my issues with The Last Jedi so bear with me.

My absolute favorite Star Trek series is Deep Space Nine. It takes a very critical look at the Federation and the optimistic future set up by Gene Roddenberry since the very first series and tests these ideas in the show repeatedly with a war they can’t simply talk their way out of, inner conflict in the Federation, and more space-political drama. I really admire what they did with the show because I never felt that it was fairly respectful of Roddenberry’s vision and in the end I believe the Federation stood up to these various tests. It allowed a fresh look at an existing world with a new and diverse set of characters including one old one. Very admirable in my opinion.
My favorite Star Wars media outside of the main film series is Knight of the Old Republic 2 as some of you might have guessed by my avatar. It builds off of Knights of the Old Republic’s fairly usual Star Wars story and gives it some depth with a different perspective on the Mandalorian Wars and Darth Revan. One of the companion’s views of the Force, the Jedi, and the Sith are incredibly critical with some reasonable explanation as to why she felt that way. It was really fantastic and I felt that even though the game is unfinished, the goal of the writers and the way they pulled it off was so admirable that I couldn’t help but fall in love with the story.

Now really why did these series work, but The Last Jedi didn’t work for me? In the end, I feel it really boils down to execution. The Last Jedi using existing characters like Luke to criticize the Jedi way really didn’t work out for me. KotOR 2 and Deep Space Nine both brought on new characters to provide another perspective on the world. I felt that in the end, Kylo Ren could have been much more suited for that critical outlook on established Star Wars ideas like the Jedi and the Sith instead of Luke. Particularly towards the end where he gives that speech about wanting Luke, Snoke, the Jedi, and the Sith to all die. I felt that Luke should have been the grounding Star Wars character in that movie, a familiar character that tests Kylo Ren’s ideas. They went a completely different direction with Luke’s character though, to the point where I was taken out of the movie because I adamantly believe that most of what Luke did in that movie was out of character. The ending scene with Kylo Ren and Luke together kind of did this for me, but I was still taken out of it due to how Luke was previously characterized in the movie.

I also believe that everything involving Finn, Poe, Rose, and Holdo would have worked much better if there was a spy relaying their hyperspace jumps to the First Order instead of them being able to track them through lightspeed. That was my first thought when I was watching the movie and was why I thought Holdo was withholding her plan until they found the spy. I feel like that sequence of events would have been better for Finn’s character progression and Poe’s while making Holdo a much more agreeable character to the audience. It would have been interesting to have a feeling of mistrust among the Resistance, maybe even mainly directed at Finn who was a former First Order soldi- I mean janitor.

So yeah I feel the movie was really wasted potential along with being a bad movie that didn’t manage to get its themes across well due to poor execution. Also the excess of humor definitely detracted from the ideas that movie was trying to present. And I think some people have pointed out that the originals definitely had their fair share of humor too, but I always felt that it was naturally presented in the story and didn’t detract from the tone the movies were going for. Well, except with the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi.

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Matt.F said:

Ha, Dre - you’ve proven nothing!

It’s not about proving anything. It’s about writing a coherent argument, rather than just spend your time qualifying other people’s argumentd. It’s allways very easy to stand on the sideline, and yell: “Yeah, your argument sucks!”.

You have an issue with Rey, but Luke did his “massive” Dagobah training in what… around 48 hours or so.

I again paraphrase Lucas’ words on the subject:

"The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

You have to study hard, and you can do it on your own. Luke spent the three years between ANH and TESB honing his Force skills after Obi-Wan had shown him the basics. You may remember, he was able to do a Force pull at the start of TESB. He then got trained by Yoda on Dagobah for a period that may have several days, or more. It does take time to travel through space, you know, and the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across, meaning it would take 120,000 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other at lightspeed. The Millenium Falcon can travel .5 past light speed, whatever that may be. Even though the movie intercuts between different scenes, this does not automatically imply these events are happening at the same time.

It’s true, if you applied your level of nitpicking to Empire Strikes Back you’d rip it to shreds but saying that The Last Jedi fails is ‘selective’ in the extreme.

My suggestion for those grown men who choose to nitpick - and I don’t know whether this applies to yourself or not, this is a general suggestion - would be to go and watch the movie with children. Whether your own kids or a nephew, and see it through their eyes. It might make you remember some of the magic and escapism you felt when you first watched ESB as a child.

I still remember that magic very well, and all of those movies can withstand my level of nitpicking very well. You’ve yet to come up with a single argument, that shows the original films having the same level of inconsistency among themselves (and I’m mostly restricting myself to the OT, since I’m not much of a PT fan).

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I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I should restrict myself to checking in on Adywan’s progress in the Fan Edit section of this site.

I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.

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Matt.F said:

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I should restrict myself to checking in on Adywan’s progress in the Fan Edit section of this site.

I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.

You shouldn’t let other people ruin your movie experience. So, I feel differently about the film than you, but it’s just my opinion. I’m frustrated with the film, and writing about it is a way to deal with those frustrations, but no offense meant. I don’t hate the Last Jedi, and I like it as a sci-fi/fantasy movie, but I personally don’t like where the franchise is heading, and how it all connects to the past. So, I guess the next generation of Star Wars is not really meant for me. I hoped it would, but we don’t allways get what we hope for. You obviously feel very different, and that’s great, because that will at least guarantee the franchise lives on after grumpy old men like me have left the building.

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Matt.F said:
I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.

Or you know, you could accept the fact that people have different opinions than you.

As someone who likes The Last Jedi, I enjoy seeing what everyone has to say, even those who don’t like it. Dre has made great points, even though I don’t agree with his view on the film.

But for anyone who didn’t like the film upon their first watch, please do go see it again. There’s too much to digest for one viewing. See it two, three, six more times before you make your judgement. I had to do the same with The Force Awakens and I ended up loving it - and expect the same from this movie.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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Matt.F said:

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I should restrict myself to checking in on Adywan’s progress in the Fan Edit section of this site.

I thought this was a place for fans who love Star Wars but it really seems it is the opposite. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed The Last Jedi I find myself in a minority position, and the more I read comments here that are dumping on the film the more it appears that the pile on is increasing. I fear the prevailing view, or at least those crack posting, is a negative one and that’s rather toxic and somewhat depressing.

Uh… Not everyone is going to automatically love a movie simply because it has a Star Wars logo on the poster. The discussions here from those that did not like it have detailed specific and legitimate criticisms of the movie.

“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas

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JawsTDS said:

Matt.F said:

But for anyone who didn’t like the film upon their first watch, please do go see it again. There’s too much to digest for one viewing. See it two, three, six more times before you make your judgement. I had to do the same with The Force Awakens and I ended up loving it - and expect the same from this movie.

So do you mind people like me who walked away from the force awakens after one viewing, knew I did not like it and decided I was not interested in the sequel trilogy at all and particularly not forcing myself to watch it six times to help put my mind at rest over why who what where and when I did and did not like.

Yep I walked away because the scales tipped away to “I do not like it, and I don’t care about it”

Anyway sounds like a mixed bag nothing I have read has been resoundingly positive about the last jedi and I thought that would be the case.

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NFBisms said:

I like discussing with people who think differently than I do about it, tbh.

Same, although sometimes it feels like you’re talking to a brick wall.

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Ronster said:

JawsTDS said:

Matt.F said:

But for anyone who didn’t like the film upon their first watch, please do go see it again. There’s too much to digest for one viewing. See it two, three, six more times before you make your judgement. I had to do the same with The Force Awakens and I ended up loving it - and expect the same from this movie.

So do you mind people like me who walked away from the force awakens after one viewing, knew I did not like it and decided I was not interested in the sequel trilogy at all and particularly not forcing myself to watch it six times to help put my mind at rest over why who what where and when I did and did not like.

If you know it doesn’t work for you the first time around, then don’t waste your time. I respect your stance and appreciate you being civil about your disliking for it. For people like me, it just takes some time to take it in, which hurts my wallet.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

I like discussing with people who think differently than I do about it, tbh.

Same, although sometimes it feels like you talking to a brick wall.

Then bring a sledge hammer. 😉

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NFBisms said:

That being said, TLJ isn’t really as gray or cynical as people are making it out to be. I don’t think it was saying the Jedi are evil.

I think it’s still a very traditional good vs evil story, it just places less faith in ideals alone and gives less credit to principles making a hero. It embraces the human condition and makes that which is in all of us - our ability to fail and move on - good enough to be heroes. In some ways, that’s more optimistic than saying we have to work super hard just to be good people. It’s not saying that the Jedi were super bad just because they were flawed, just that they don’t have a patent on being able to save the galaxy.

Sometimes trying too hard to be the hero can backfire, like with Poe, Finn, and Rose - and in the case of Luke, who held himself to such high expectations of heroism that he exiled himself after failure (which, thinking the galaxy is better off without you is still kind of an extension of some bullshit hero complex).

You don’t have to try to be the hero - as long as you do good, there’s one in there - and your failures, flaws, and screw ups won’t take that away as long as you get back up.

Holy shit, this has all been swimming around in my head somewhere all week but I wasn’t able to put any of it into words. Thank you for this.

(A couple of pages back, I know, but I had to respond to it.)

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Two out of three of the Sequel Trilogy films (thus far) have ended with the Force Theme. Out of all the issues with the Sequel Trilogy, this is one that really irks me. It made sense in the context of both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, but you’d think Williams wouldn’t be so repetitive.

And there is no doubt in my mind it will be the same case for Episode IX.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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JawsTDS said:

Two out of three of the Sequel Trilogy films (thus far) have ended with the Force Theme. Out of all the issues with the Sequel Trilogy, this is one that really irks me. It made sense in the context of both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, but you’d think Williams wouldn’t be so repetitive.

And there is no doubt in my mind it will be the same case for Episode IX.

And the opening title music sounds anemic as hell in both, and in TLJ it ends with the same pre-tilt-down music cue as ANH, which IIRC is the only film in the franchise to date to reuse a crawl-to-tilt-down segue cue.

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NFBisms said:

I don’t agree with the reading that Obi-Wan and Yoda were just using Luke, but I don’t think TLJ ruins that which came before it. I know it’s kind of a paradox, but TLJ is both dependent on the the OT, while also trying to be its own thing. It takes the franchise in a different direction for sure, and you kind of have to separate it from the thematic heart of the originals.

It’s not an exact comparison, but think Logan relative to the original X-Men trilogy.

That being said, TLJ isn’t really as gray or cynical as people are making it out to be. I don’t think it was saying the Jedi are evil.

I think it’s still a very traditional good vs evil story, it just places less faith in ideals alone and gives less credit to principles making a hero. It embraces the human condition and makes that which is in all of us - our ability to fail and move on - good enough to be heroes. In some ways, that’s more optimistic than saying we have to work super hard just to be good people. It’s not saying that the Jedi were super bad just because they were flawed, just that they don’t have a patent on being able to save the galaxy.

Sometimes trying too hard to be the hero can backfire, like with Poe, Finn, and Rose - and in the case of Luke, who held himself to such high expectations of heroism that he exiled himself after failure (which, thinking the galaxy is better off without you is still kind of an extension of some bullshit hero complex).

You don’t have to try to be the hero - as long as you do good, there’s one in there - and your failures, flaws, and screw ups won’t take that away as long as you get back up.

EDIT: honestly I wish people wouldn’t ignore my posts

I definitely don’t think it’s cynical at all, in fact it’s openly critical of cynicism. I do think it’s grayer than any Star War before it, though mostly in the ways it shows that being good is complicated.

People say that this film make out the Jedi to be evil. I don’t think they make them out to even be bad. Just imperfect.