The Force Awakens: Official Review Thread - ** SPOILERS ** — Page 157

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

Then why can’t all the times Kylo isn’t being unquestionably evil just be thrown under “Ben Solo?” Why couldn’t someone say; “it wasn’t Kylo feeling the call of the light side, that was Ben Solo momentarily showing through. Kylo is 100% evil.”

There is no indication that the First Order knows who Ren really is. Conversation about Han is left between Ren and Snoke.

Outside of the movie, I mean. Why couldn’t someone watching the movie say the above?

And besides that, we’ve had at least 4 unquestionably evil characters in the franchise, 2 in the OT alone; why would you want another?

Yes. That’s the way the Dark Side works.

Not always. There’s an argument to be made that Dooku isn’t unquestionably evil, and I still don’t agree that Vader is unquestionably evil. And, of course, Kylo himself!

You don’t think it’s been played out?

No. Star Wars is fantasy. It’s also a longstanding franchise with certain tropes it has created for itself to follow. To stray too far from them is not understand what makes Star Wars what it is. This is why so many longstanding Star Trek fans hate Star Trek: Discovery.

Apparently not in this case, though. To go back to what CHEWBAKA said, they clearly did break (at least slightly) from the ‘unquestionably evil cartoon villain’ trope, and yet the biggest complaint about TFA is that it adheres to the formula too much. Sure, there may be a formula, but having an unquestionably evil villain is not part of it.

Personally, I think if anything the “there is no good or evil; everyone is flawed” trope that has been popular lately (The Walking Dead, Battlestar Galactica, ST:Discovery, Game of Thrones) has been overused.

There’s your problem. TV sucks.

chyron8472 said:

JEDIT: Oh, and Star Wars has had more than 4 evil dark side characters (eg. Asajj Ventress), if you include The Clone Wars or Rebels.

The same Ventress that went on to help Ahsoka?

chyron8472 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

my understanding of the Dark Side is that to become a master of the dark side of the Force—not just able to use it, but to control it and to bend it to your own will—becoming unquestionably evil is pretty much a requirement.

Does Vader fall under that?

Are you seriously asking if Vader is unquestionably evil?

Vader wasn’t unquestionably evil. He was pretty evil, but “there was still good in him.”

Star Wars seems to divorce students of the Dark Side from their former selves, from the perspectives of both Ben Kenobi and Vader himself (and Luke, now that I remember “It’s the name of your true self, you’ve only forgotten.”) That is, Vader was unquestionably evil—evil enough to hold Captain Raymus Antilles in the air by his head until his neck snapped under his own body weight, among other things—but the good that is Anakin is still buried in there somewhere. Once Anakin was redeemed, Vader was defeated.

If what you were asking was if Vader is able to control the Force itself and to manipulate it to his own designs, such a topic moves out of the films and into books. I haven’t read Vader-centric books like Lords of the Sith, for example, but Sith-centric books I have read (like the Darth Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis) seem to suggest that to be lukewarm with the Dark Side is to be limited in one’s force abilities or their effectiveness. This is in part why Kylo Ren was only mediocre in his saber battle against Finn and Rey, for example. According to Darth Bane’s take on the Dark Side, Kylo Ren should have fueled his use of the Dark Side by focusing on the pain in his side from the blaster wound. The physical pain should have aided him, not hindered him, were he proficient enough with the dark side of the Force.

This right here is why ROTJ is puerile, simplistic crap and only a harbinger of the things to come with the prequels.

No. This is why Return of the Jedi is a classic adventure film.

This is why I don’t want any hypothetical children of mine to become SW fans. They’ll be introduced to the movies and love them, warts and all. But then they’ll grow up. They’ll realize the world is rarely black and white. This will inform their tastes. They’ll cease to love SW, warts and all, and long for SW to evolve beyond the black-and-white mold. But SW won’t evolve. Then they be like the Jovian moon Io – stuck between opposing heavenly bodies, the rope in an everlasting game of tug-of-war – and they’ll grow to resent SW and rue the day they ever became fans of SW.

Bergman isn’t nearly so stressful.

Suffice to say, I was venting more than anything. I wish I had never become a SW fan; then perhaps I wouldn’t have wasted nine years of my life with a prequel re-write few people will read and even fewer will ever care about, nine years trying to shape a universe of teddy bear picnics into something more meaningful to me.

Jeebus said:

Then why can’t all the times Kylo isn’t being unquestionably evil just be thrown under “Ben Solo?” Why couldn’t someone say; “it wasn’t Kylo feeling the call of the light side, that was Ben Solo momentarily showing through. Kylo is 100% evil.”

Why do we need to stick to this silly idea of dichotomous personalities anyway? Clearly the films are looking to do something more interesting.

I loved when Kylo said “Your son is gone,” and you could tell he was putting on, saying it to prove it to himself as well as Han. He’s trying to play into that classic Vader dichotomy but clearly doesn’t fit. I’d much rather have this than the split personality.

Plot similarities don’t matter to me, the other stuff is far more important. When it comes to character, I prefer going for something new.

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

Jeebus said:

Then why can’t all the times Kylo isn’t being unquestionably evil just be thrown under “Ben Solo?” Why couldn’t someone say; “it wasn’t Kylo feeling the call of the light side, that was Ben Solo momentarily showing through. Kylo is 100% evil.”

There is no indication that the First Order knows who Ren really is. Conversation about Han is left between Ren and Snoke.

Outside of the movie, I mean. Why couldn’t someone watching the movie say the above?

Because our perspective here is different from theirs. I said people in the Star Wars universe do this, not real world moviegoers.

Then I’m not sure why it was brought up in the first place.

Jeebus said:

chyron8472 said:

JEDIT: Oh, and Star Wars has had more than 4 evil dark side characters (eg. Asajj Ventress), if you include The Clone Wars or Rebels.

The same Ventress that went on to help Ahsoka?

Ventress has her own plans. Dooku and Palpatine left her out in the cold, so she did what she did to her own ends, not because it was the right thing to do.

Then why help Ahsoka when she could very easily turn her in for the reward? Wouldn’t that be the evil and self-interested thing to do? Why listen to Ahsoka’s pleas not to kill the Clones? Wouldn’t it be much easier to kill them? Plus, there’s no worrying about the Clones waking back up and trying to find her. She even admitted later that she didn’t turn Ahsoka in because she sympathized with Ahsoka’s situation. That sounds anything but ‘pure evil and self interest’ to me to me.

I haven’t read it; but you should check out Dark Disciple, or a plot summary if you prefer; because I think it’s relevant.

Yeah, I love Kylo Ren. He reminds me a little too much of his grandpa pre-Suit sometimes, but Adam Driver is a very compelling actor. I just can’t help but watch him do anything when he comes on screen.

Diego said:

So, went to the midnight screening yesterday here in Mexico and I really, really enjoyed it, had a lot of fun.

I think it will probably, like the prequels, split the fan base (maybe a bit less than the prequels), since it is very close to a remake of Star Wars, with quite a bit of Empire too, and I can see why that’ll bother people, and the Starkiller is kinda dumb.

For me though, while it rehashes a lot of scenes from Star Wars (the cantina bit being the worst and most unneeded offender), it wasn’t such a big deal. I felt this movie was more about the characters than the story. One of my biggest problems with the prequels is not so much the cgi or jar-jar, but that the characters are awful, Qui-Gon is boring, Obi-Wan is boring, Padme is… well I don’t know if there’s an english word for beyond boring and Anakin is a very unlikeable character. On TFA I found the characters quite interesting, fun and with emotions, you can see their friendship ( they don’t have to tell you they’re friends)

It’s a movie with heart and humor and I loved it, and I guess I’m a sucker for nostalgia, which this movie has tons. I loved when Rey and Finn are running and Finn asks about “that ship” and Rey says it’s garbage, the ship of course turns out to be the Falcon.

I also have to say I was pleasantly surprised by Harrison Ford, this is not old, bored Ford, it’s Han Solo from Star Wars and Empire. It is a shame though, we’ll never see Luke, Han and Leia together on screen again, the ewok celebration will forever remain the last time we see them together.

Just started reading this thread from the beginning (to actually read some reviews for a change 😉 ) and thought the above post, while not exactly what I would say about the movie, is not a bad summation still and captures many of the thoughts I had about TFA.

Also the part about knowing we’ll never get to see Han and Luke together again while quite obvious, wasn’t a conscious thought that had crossed my mind yet until Diego pointed it out above and it is indeed quite a sad thought );

While on the topic of Han’s death, the actual way they led up to it in the movie is probably one of the more annoying issues I have with TFA (I know it’s got its fair share of issues but overall I quite enjoyed the movie) simply because of how telegraphed the whole thing was. One may have guessed before watching the movie that Han would die in it, especially knowing how Ford wanted to be killed off in TESB but I’m of the sort that don’t theorise on such things before entering to see a movie, I take it more simply as it comes as the movie unfolds in front of me. Yet I knew as soon as we see Han standing there with a certain expression on his face while watching his son cross the catwalk and then start crossing it himself, that Han is certainly about to die to his son’s hand. I just checked a youtube clip to see how much time actually passes and it turns out, I knew a full 3 and a half minutes before it actually happened that without a doubt his son was about to kill him and this really annoyed me during my first viewing of the movie.

.Val

Some of the rehash complaints are legit…Starkiller base, for instance.

But then there’s the “Han Solo is in it - total rehash” nonsense.

SilverWook said:

Bars filled with alien creatures in the Star Wars universe are as ubiquitous as sports bars on our planet. Nobody complains when characters in a non Star Wars film go to one.

I don’t even have issues with the diner scene in AOTC, because even people in the GFFA must go somewhere to eat.
I’d love to see a Imperial cafeteria, with long lines of troopers complaining about the food. 😉

as long as we see the food

GEORGE LUCAS: Why bother using real food? We can add it in digitally in post.

…

GEORGE LUCAS: Whoops. Sorry. Forgot about that. But there’s always the special edition. . . .

I’ve seen the force awakens about 8 times, 6 at the theater and 2 at home on the ol’ Blu-ray. I haven’t seen it in quite a while nor do I really care to. I’ve seen Rogue One in the theater 20 times (Best movie-going experience in my lifetime.) and countless times more on Blu-ray and it just keeps getting better every time I see it! 😄 That pretty much sums up what I think about both films. 😄