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STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - ** PRODUCTION HAS NOW RESTARTED ** — Page 43

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oh_riginal said:

Most common reason a shot is flipped is to avoid breaking the 180 degree rule.

This is never the fault of the editor, as they have to work with the footage they have in order to make a scene work shot-to-shot. Breaking the 180 degree rule is far worse for flow of a scene than a reversed image, hence why they tend to pop up a lot in many movies. We only notice them more in Star Wars because we observe them repeatedly, much more than any other film.

Yeah, definitely not the fault of the editor, they’re the one trying to fix it. Looking at the Leia/Jabba pics on a bigger screen, that’s definitely to fix 180. As the the skiff and barge heading to the sarlacc, that’s a combination of keeping the flow of movement from left to right, and also keeping the same position of the two vehicles the same, relative to each other, throughout the sequence.

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DominicCobb said:

Those continuity issues are of the least concern when it comes to editing. I’ve never noticed them before and I still can’t see what they are (on my phone). Far more jarring would be something like the skiff pointing in one direction in one shot and another in another.

I would have to watch the scenes in question to get a better idea of it (and that is how a cut should be judged, not just by looking at stills), but at the end of the day no matter what you have to realize that if a professional editor flipped a shot there was a damn good reason for it, and an eagle eyed fan pointing out Carrie’s birthmark is in the wrong spot is not a good enough reason to flip it back.

Yeah I agree that I’ve never noticed these flip shots before so they obviously work well and I do wonder if they get noticed as continuity issues from over-analysing a movie frame by frame (or like many fan editors, have simply gone over the material too often to not notice such details) rather than as an edit was meant to be viewed in the context of how it is expected to be viewed (as a motion picture). I highly doubt any but a very few would ever notice such matters during the first or even first handful of viewings when your mind is focused on all the new information it is receiving rather than critically comparing such minor (at the time) details.

One does have to ask though, why then isn’t this 180 rule taken into consideration much more when actually filming the scenes? Is this not part of the directors job?

For anyone that doesn’t know what the 180 rule is (like me 5 minutes ago), below is the wiki explanation:

180-degree rule

In film making, the 180-degree rule is a basic guideline regarding the on-screen spatial relationship between a character and another character or object within a scene. An imaginary line called the axis connects the characters, and by keeping the camera on one side of this axis for every shot in the scene, the first character is always frame right of the second character, who is then always frame left of the first. The camera passing over the axis is called jumping the line or crossing the line; breaking the 180-degree rule by shooting on all sides is known as shooting in the round.

The 180-degree rule enables the audience to visually connect with unseen movement happening around and behind the immediate subject and is important in the narration of battle scenes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/180-degree_rule

.Val

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Valheru_84 said:

One does have to ask though, why then isn’t this 180 rule taken into consideration much more when actually filming the scenes? Is this not part of the directors job?

It 100% is but everyone makes mistakes. The majority of the time they factor it in and it works fine. Sometimes one shot of a scene could be done days or weeks before the next (not often, but possible on an effects picture like this) and it’s easy to slip up. Sometimes they did two shots that they didn’t necessarily envision cutting together (maybe there was supposed to be a cutaway but that’s gone and now its jarring). And of course, any rule is just a guideline, so maybe they knew they were breaking 180 but thought it would work okay, but ultimately it didn’t.

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Fair enough, thanks for the insight and explanation Dominic and oh_riginal.

.Val

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Unless the birthmark is pretty prominent throughout the Jabba’s Palace sequences, seems like erasing it in that one shot is the best solution.

Also, I always just figured Luke turned off his saber while jumping to the Barge.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

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But what about that shot in ESB where luke is upside down?

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 (Edited)

Sorry about this but I just now read the previous posts.

I understand what’s being said about the editor with the 180 degrees rule and that they were flipped for a reason, its just really jarring to me that Chewbacca would have his bandolier worn in that position when no other depiction of him (of any kind) has him wearing it that way.

timdiggerm said:

Unless the birthmark is pretty prominent throughout the Jabba’s Palace sequences, seems like erasing it in that one shot is the best solution.

It appears three more times.


Analog Releases of Films That Contain Deleted, Extended, & Alternate Footage That’ve Never Been Released on DVD/BluRay

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Dang Tantive, I cannot unsee these things now. 😉

If Addy was to keep the flipped shots, I assume he would correct all those errors. The birth mark would be easy enough, some of the other ones though would take some more time and precision.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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I’d never noticed Carrie’s birthmark before, but I’ve certainly noticed Jabba’s massive and lop-sided nostrils flipping from side to side in the Sail Barge scenes. I’ve always detested flipped shots as once you’ve seen them they invariably become impossible not to see. Hopefully at least some of them may be fixable in this edit.

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I’ve got it: cut the entire Sail Barge Battle. Make mind tricks work, then we’re done! 😉

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ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

Exactly. I don’t mean to make light of the work involved, as I’m sure it’s not easy at all, even for someone with Ady’s talents, but if some of the worst offenders can be improved (Boba Fett’s flipped shots in Jabba’s Palace leap to mind, along with Jabba’s nostrils… not a sentence I get to type very often 😉), it would be wonderful.

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ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

Exactly, that’s how I interpreted it also.

jarbear said:

If Addy was to keep the flipped shots, I assume he would correct all those errors. The birth mark would be easy enough, some of the other ones though would take some more time and precision.

Yep, I agree. It’s clear with ESB:R that he is wanting to fix any of these kinds of inconsistencies where possible, no matter how large or small 😃

@Tantive, Good work! I think these are definitely worthwhile for this thread, and Ady can sort out which ones can or cannot be corrected. You already brought something up that I didn’t notice before 😉

Wishlist Of Ideas/Suggestions For Improving ROTJ

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Snaketibe said:

ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

…Boba Fett’s flipped shots in Jabba’s Palace leap to mind…

That one’s easy, just cut Boba out entirely.

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DominicCobb said:

Snaketibe said:

ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

…Boba Fett’s flipped shots in Jabba’s Palace leap to mind…

That one’s easy, just cut Boba out entirely.

I know Ady has said he won’t be doing this, but I’m still 100% for cutting Boba out.

As for the flipped shots - I agree that they were flipped for a reason, but if the inconsistencies introduced by the flips can be fixed, they should be.

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ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

That’s my take on it, but I know a lot of people who never heard of the rule would jump to the conclusion of flipping it back, thinking that is the only way to fix it. Just wanted to explain it a bit to spread awareness. 😃

“Lifes a song you don’t get to rehearse, and every single verse can make it that much worse”

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ChainsawAsh said:

DominicCobb said:

Snaketibe said:

ray_afraid said:

I don’t think these flipped shots were being pointed out as needing to be flipped back, but that certain elements in the shots can be corrected.

…Boba Fett’s flipped shots in Jabba’s Palace leap to mind…

That one’s easy, just cut Boba out entirely.

I know Ady has said he won’t be doing this, but I’m still 100% for cutting Boba out.

Yeah, same. And I know there’s no reason to harp on it, but the news of recapping daddy’s decapping really sinks my heart.
Again, any chance Bobba is this films version of “there won’t be any AT-STs in ESB:R.”? 😉

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dahmage said:

Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

It doesn’t matter. The flipped elements can be partially or wholly flipped back and maintain composition. It’s just as distracting to see R2 mirrored as having him move counter to the flow of the action.

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Bingowings said:

dahmage said:

Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

It doesn’t matter. The flipped elements can be partially or wholly flipped back and maintain composition. It’s just as distracting to see R2 mirrored as having him move counter to the flow of the action.

I disagree on your second point (flipped elements are only noticed by obsessive fans on repeat viewings, whereas a bad cut is obvious to anyone, whether or not they understand why), but yes, if the offending elements can be changed without flipping the whole shot back, then that should absolutely be done.

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Personally, I’ve always thought it made perfect sense that Boba Fett might be found hanging out in Jabba’s vicinity, since he obviously works for him at least some of the time. I therefore have no problem at all with his presence in the film, but each to his or her own in that regard.

However, I do feel his rather feeble end could certainly be improved, and so since Ady has said Boba will be staying in the film, I look forward to seeing what he decides to do in that regard.

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DominicCobb said:

Bingowings said:

dahmage said:

Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

It doesn’t matter. The flipped elements can be partially or wholly flipped back and maintain composition. It’s just as distracting to see R2 mirrored as having him move counter to the flow of the action.

I disagree on your second point (flipped elements are only noticed by obsessive fans on repeat viewings, whereas a bad cut is obvious to anyone, whether or not they understand why), but yes, if the offending elements can be changed without flipping the whole shot back, then that should absolutely be done.

As someone with a fine art training in my experience people generally notice these things at a gut level. I noticed the flip shots in the phantom menace on first viewing.

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Bingowings said:

DominicCobb said:

Bingowings said:

dahmage said:

Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

It doesn’t matter. The flipped elements can be partially or wholly flipped back and maintain composition. It’s just as distracting to see R2 mirrored as having him move counter to the flow of the action.

I disagree on your second point (flipped elements are only noticed by obsessive fans on repeat viewings, whereas a bad cut is obvious to anyone, whether or not they understand why), but yes, if the offending elements can be changed without flipping the whole shot back, then that should absolutely be done.

As someone with a fine art training in my experience people generally notice these things at a gut level. I noticed the flip shots in the phantom menace on first viewing.

I’ve seen that film more times than I care to admit and I don’t even know what they are off the top of my head. Also, since I guess we’re listing credentials, I work as a video editor.

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DominicCobb said:

Bingowings said:

DominicCobb said:

Bingowings said:

dahmage said:

Glad to finally hear you guys put an end to this constant search for flipped shots. they are flipped for a reason, as some posters above have clearly explained.

It doesn’t matter. The flipped elements can be partially or wholly flipped back and maintain composition. It’s just as distracting to see R2 mirrored as having him move counter to the flow of the action.

I disagree on your second point (flipped elements are only noticed by obsessive fans on repeat viewings, whereas a bad cut is obvious to anyone, whether or not they understand why), but yes, if the offending elements can be changed without flipping the whole shot back, then that should absolutely be done.

As someone with a fine art training in my experience people generally notice these things at a gut level. I noticed the flip shots in the phantom menace on first viewing.

I’ve seen that film more times than I care to admit and I don’t even know what they are off the top of my head. Also, since I guess we’re listing credentials, I work as a video editor.

Well, as someone with no relevant credentials, I can confirm that I often spot flipped shots on the first viewing of a film (and not just Star Wars). Naturally there will be many, many more occasions where I have not spotted them, but often they stick out like sore thumbs to me, and I find them extremely jarring.

Continuity errors bug the hell out of me as they smack of, at the very least poor planning, and at worst, poor film-making, and I place flipped shots firmly in the continuity error category for being deemed ‘necessary’ in the first place to avoid jarring 180 degree rule breaches. With more competent planning, most flipped shots should be completely avoidable, but if the director hasn’t got the footage shot, the poor editor is screwed and has to make do with what they have.