I loved it but want more Qui-gon. I hope they continue it and branch out. this would be a great series to explore some of the High Republic characters in animation.
In keeping with the Flash Gordon origins, I would definitely have Palpatine as the villain. I wouldn’t change Snoke in the first one. Or the First Order. But it needed a tad more politics so we know the state of the Republic. I think I’d have Leia as a Senator as well as leading the Resistance. I would have stuck with the twins from the EU. The girl would be learning politics with Leia and the Boy has fallen to the Dark Side (just as thing start.
From there, big changes. The First Order destroys the Republic Capitol, but the Republic is fighting back as the First Order tries to take over. A year passes to the second movie. Rey goes on a quest for Luke and finds him. He is at first unwilling to teach her, but take Yoda’s message about teaching your failures and have that message be from Leia. THEN you have Yoda and/or Anakin there as Rey gets a more proper training. Ending with Luke accompanying her to save Leia and the others and actually dying in conflict where he shows in person the epic power of a Jedi Master. It turns the tide of the invasion. At the same time hints from the first movie build in this movie that Snoke, only seen as a Hologram, is not who we think he is, but no big reveal, just lots of foreshadowing.
The final movie would be about the final battle. I like the doomsday fleet idea so I’d keep it. I like the fleet of small ships. But it wouldn’t be some impossible to reach location, it would be some far off outter rim secret base and the Republic fleet attacks and is losing until the civilian fleet joins them. Rey faces off with Palpatine and wins. I really love he being backed by the Jedi spirits (Not sure I like some of the fan edit version, there is likely a better way) and I love the 2 saber deflection of his force energy deflecting and feeding back on him making him destroy himself. A very Jedi move that was just perfect.
I like Finn. I’d keep him and most of his story, but Trevorrow’s script had a good bit. I’d have him be more obviously force sensitive and start training with Rey at the start of this film. I’d do more with the defected First Order stormtroopers and they would have some crucial role in the final battle… not on horseback unless it is on the surface of a planet. I liked that bit but to many did not.
The other details I’d have to work out. I’m not sure what other parts I’d have. With the destruction of the Republic Capitol, Leia would become Chancellor. I’m not sure what to do with Han, but having him back out getting in trouble wouldn’t be my line of thinking. I’d have him make some heroic sacrifice that changes the course of things.
I like most of what we got.
Clone WarS - plural. I don’t think we got that. I would put more time between Eps 2 and 3 and have more than one war the clones were used in.
Obi-wan and Anakin were friends. The movies should show this. I’d show Obi-wan’s major flaw in teaching Anakin was that the two were more friends than student and teacher. All that conflict in AOTC would be gone.
I love the Palapatine subplots to take over the Republic. I would make more clear to the audience what has been going on.
I’d keep Yoda the teacher of the younglings, but I’d have him be a minority voice on the council.
I’d leave TPM much as it was, but increase Anakin’s age. Episode 2 would be about the first clone war. A danger would rise much sooner in the film and the Jedi would be concerned about the use of these new clones and investigate. Anakin is a new knight and is given sold guard duty on Padme, who is a target during the war. The romance would need to be better. Anakin shouldn’t be so whiny. Obi-wan investigates and finds out about Sifo Dyas and fails to uncover Palaptine’s connection and what he finds satisfies the Jedi. All the character get involved in the final battle where they seize the droid factories of Geonosis and Count Dooku escapes.
Ep 3 would be a new clone war. Now the Jedi are the generals and Anakin and Obi-wan are deep in the fighting. Similar to how things play out, I would have Dooku and Grevious be the key to stopping the war and after their defeat Palpatine refuses to let go of power so a group of Jedi (the masters Yoda doesn’t agree with) go to deal with him and that starts the Jedi purge. Padme is still key to Anakin’s fall. But it is more. The wars have changed him and the cracks in his training show. He has been taking the easy path and using anger to fight the war and the opposing Jedi spark hate for his fellow Jedi when they try to take out Palpatine (not just arrest him). Anakin saves Palpatine and gathers several other disaffected and angry Jedi and they start the purge. Obi-wan faces Anakin at a Volcano, not a vulcanic planet, and Anakin is maimed and burned and Obi-wan believes him dead and takes his saber. No watching him burn scene. Anakin falls into a volcano and lands on a ledge and is badly burned. Padme escapes and we don’t see the children born or what happens to her. So we don’t know when we see the OT what happened.
Episode I would be set in 37 BBY. As the Galactic Civil War was in the OT, the Clone Wars would be introduced in medias res. At this late stage, the Clone Wars is primarily between the Republic and Mandalorian Death Watch, a terrorist faction which rose to power after displacing the previous pacifist government on Mandalore, but the wars began as localized skirmishes between revolutionary syndicalist movements and corporations utilizing clone slave labour which snowballed into multiple large-scale conflicts.
The Jedi would be portrayed much like they are in the PT, except they’d be endogamous rather than celibate and wield only blue lightsabers. Knights would wear uniforms similar to Luke’s ROTJ outfit, while masters would wear uniforms closer to his TFA outfit; in both cases, the colour scheme would be black-&-gray rather than pure black or white.
Yoda would be absent, mentioned but not seen. A holdover from a time when the Jedi were more theologically liberal, his heterodox beliefs placed him in conflict with the Jedi Council, leading to his expulsion.
Obi-Wan would get Anakin’s backstory from the PT. Born Ben Lars, he would’ve grown up a slave on Tatooine with his mother and brother, Owen, until Yoda came to the planet and paid for their freedom when Ben was nine. Like Yoda, he’d be a maverick at odds with the Council.
Anakin would be older, around the same age Luke was in SW. Like Obi-Wan, he’d hail from Tatooine, but wouldn’t have been a slave. Rather, he and his twin sister, Beru, would’ve grown up together on the Skywalker moisture farm. Unlike Beru, who was content on the farm, he left Tatooine seeking a more adventurous life, becoming navigator on the spice freighter Twilight. A Han Solo type, he’d be completely uninterested in getting involved in the Clone Wars until meeting Obi-Wan.
The Padme Amidala character would be completely reimagined as Amidala Naberrie AKA Naberrie 38. The 37th clone in the Naberrie line which has served the Alderaan Royal House as personal bodyguards for generations, a quirk of fate made her Force-sensitive, unlike her predecessors.
Naboo would become Alderaan. Enlisting the aid of the native Gungans, the Mandalorians would invade the planet, seeking to procure the Alderaanians’ advanced cloning techniques. This would enable them to create longer lasting clone shock troopers.
Qui-Gon and Dooku would be fused into a single character. Another student of Yoda and an influential Jedi master in his own right, he, too, would’ve been expelled from the Order for his dissenting beliefs. Plagued by visions of a new Sith Empire rising from the ashes of the Republic, he’d reluctantly join forces with the Mandalorians, delving into forbidden teachings in a bid to destroy the Sith with their own arts.
Asajj Ventress would take Darth Maul’s place. Qui-Gon’s foremost apprentice, she’d have a pair of violet lightsabers.
At the end of Ep. II, Anakin would leave Obi-Wan and join Qui-Gon.
Palpatine would be fused with Darth Bane. Rather than establishing the Rule of Two, he’d have established the Rule of One; learning soul transference, he attained immortality by commandeering the bodies of his so-called apprentices, ensuring the Sith way would live on indefinitely, but only through him. Palpatine is only his latest host body.
Ep. III would end with the Jedi Council pledging their allegiance to Palpatine, with dissenting Jedi like Obi-Wan going underground. Anakin falling into a molten pit, the Great Jedi Purge, etc. would all occur between the two trilogies.
Only Qui-Gon and Palpatine would display telekinetic abilities. Other Force users would only demonstrate the subtle Force abilities depicted in ANH.
Not a single red lightsaber. Well, maybe in a vision, but that’s the extent of it.
An interesting tale. I like the Lars/Skywalker part. Though I think some of this is contradictory to some of the OT sources.
I disagree.
On what basis? Dooku is inferior to Yoda in terms of Force power, so he switches to something on a lower level because he’s better at that (because Force powers require more training and skill). That’s what’s shown in the movie.
On this we agree. Dooku is a Sith Lord. Nothing a Sith Lord says in Star Wars is something Lucas agrees with. The Sith take the easy way. The Sith will outright lie if it suits them. I love it when a Sith tells the blunt truth knowing the Jedi will think they are lying. Dooku of course prefers the light saber to force skills. He knows he is on par with Yoda in that area. Vader toys with Luke in TESB because he knows he is stronger in everything. When Kylo Ren says to kill the past, that is his dark side thing, not a theme of the film. Those on the Dark Side are there to win at all costs, lying, cheating, or whatever. They will say or do anything. Half of their combat is their words. They try to verbally destabilize their opponents. So Dooku choses to make the duel about what he is good at. It has nothing to do with how Lucas see the force or the Jedi, it is about giving Dooku an avenue to win. Or in this case to run off.
That’s the problem with Grogu. Grogu not only isn’t putting his all into his training because he misses Din Djarin, but he would absolutely choose saving Din over saving 100 people in a burning building. That doesn’t make him a bad person, but it does make him a bad Jedi. So Luke makes him choose, Din or being a Jedi. Grogu chooses Din, and he respects his choice.
Grogu’s a baby, though. He’s not able yet to understand complex moral questions or to make life-changing decisions. When Luke puts that choice in front of Grogu, there’s no way Grogu at this point can fully comprehend what that choice means. Naturally, a baby is going to feel a strong bond to their parent, and lack the high ideals necessary to commit to being a Jedi. But that doesn’t mean Grogu wouldn’t have grown into a good Jedi.
Every quote I’ve read says Lucas didn’t pay any attention at all to the EU. He always viewed it as a separate universe from his. Which is why he ignored it in everything he made. The Prequels contradict the EU as does The Clone Wars. You’d have fans yelling at him because he changed Koriban to Moraband and it’s just like, well yeah, he didn’t give a shit. When did he “veto” anything?
Read this. There are some more examples that come to mind. George rejected the idea of bringing Vader back in Dark Empire, for example.
See, the way I look at it is that Luke at that point is still stuck in the groove of reviving the PT Jedi. I feel him forcing Grogu to make that choice was premature. He should have just given the mail shirt to Grogu and continued his training. This is perhaps one area where I have really appreciated the ST films. I feel they set the Jedi to reset. Rey has the oldest Jedi texts and is rebuilding the Jedi the way they were originally. The PT Jedi sit in opposition to the Sith and the Sith are now gone so some of their ways are no longer needed. Not to say that they were flawed, but colored by their opposition to the Sith. I feel Luke would have been more successful if he had been able to make such a complete reset and he wouldn’t have made what I consider a mistake with Grogu and then misjudged both Ben Solo and Rey. I feel Rey is the first truly balanced Jedi we have seen since the old Dark Horse comics told tales of the ancient Jedi.
I also feel that what we are seeing in the new High Republic era stuff are the Jedi Lucas kept talking about while what he gave us in the PT is at the point where the cracks are showing and the flaws are coming to the surface.
I think the ones I mentioned were the Magnolia Fan edits of Eps 1 and 2.
Any thoughts about replacing that other actor next to Luke in the Briefing with Dennis Lawson? I found a good movie to use for a source.
There don’t seem to be too many people around here who don’t like this series, but evidently there are quite a few who don’t. I’ve seen some comments on FB that indicate some people think it is a bomb2.
I appreciate G&G-Fan pulling from the good tumblr post showing that Filoni’s interpretation of the films isn’t always the same as Lucas’. It is a good reminder.
But I do think it is interesting that Filoni, who has worked closely with George and probably knows George’s opinion on his own work more than anyone, would still have his own opinion about Qui-Avon and the failings of the Jedi even though he would know better than anyone that it doesn’t gel with George’s own view.
I think there is truth in both perspectives, not only George and Filoni’s, but also G&G and yotsuya. Because yes, George has stated his view on the story plenty of times, but it is also valid for the audience to look just at the films and pick up an interpretation. George might have had Opinion A in mind, but he isn’t a perfect filmmaker and may not totally conveyed what he was actually trying to convey. The Jedi come off as quite cold in the films, and operate out of a literally ivory tower. Arguably they have become this way because of Sith machinations and it doesn’t have to do with the Jedi system being fundamentally broken, but whether George meant to do it or not, he does not depict the Jedi as perfect. They are good, but they make mistakes.
And why can’t there be some truth in both views? Why can’t Anakin have failed the Jedi, but the Jedi also failed Anakin in some ways? I think there is a lesson in both directions: Jedi have to confront their fears or otherwise be consumed by them, but a Jedi must also remember that institutions can also obscure the will of the Force if one forgets to listen.
Seem like the debate is getting pretty heated but I’ve seen both views conveyed quite a lot online, and I think both views are interesting and valid.
Thank you for your voice of reason and wisdom.
I was trying to keep focused on the question in the OP about the Jedi being flawed. The PT is a story of failings all around.
Lucas has not once altered his opinion on the Jedi. Back in the 1980s, 2000s, and nowadays, he still says the Jedi were right and still echoes their philosophy as if it were his own.
I’m not so sure that his perception has never changed. There was no mention in the OT of a need for Luke to leave behind his attachments. Obi-Wan cautions him to not let the Emperor use those attachments against him, but that’s not the same thing. Also, Lucas was able to give the greenlight on plot points in the EU, so he must have been aware of and greenlit the Luke-Mara Jade romance and marriage and the New Jedi Order doctrine changes. Of course, he later said he disagreed with the idea of Luke getting married, but that was later.
Exactly. Lucas revised his ideas many times. And some of the things he can be quoted saying come from his point of view at the time - both what he was working on and who was asking the questions, and even what question was asked. I think that it is very clear from the films themselves that the Jedi are flawed. They are too attached to the Republic and politics and grown too bound by tradition. They are not evil, but they are not what they once were or what they could have been. There are cracks in their visage and the PT show that. And when you compare it to the OT, it becomes even more obvious. If that weren’t he case, Yoda and Obi-wan wouldn’t have so drastically changed training methods for Luke. Even tipping point. The council turns down Anakin in TPM because there is much fear in him. And yet in TESB, Yoda notes that there is much anger in Luke. And when Luke says “I am not afraid,” Yoda replies, “You will be. You will be.” And while the OT came first in our timeline, it came after in the Star Wars timeline. So that revision means that Yoda and Obi-wan acknowledge that something has changed. They adopt different training techniques. In reality George might have just forgotten, but when you watch all the films (and this isn’t even getting into the things like Qui-gon going against the council or Mace being so harsh with Anakin) it feels very clear that they have re-evaluated everything to make sure that Luke gets the customized training he needs to be a success. Anakin had the default traditional training and it didn’t fit. Obi-wan admits his failing in ANH. What Lucas intended as he was making the PT may have changed from film to film as it did in the OT. The end results is 6 films that show a failing Jedi order and how they fail the greatest of them, and then the last two Jedi trying to resurrect it with Luke.
That is how I see it anyway.
Us old farts knew Senator Palpatine was Darth Sideous when we saw him in his first scene. Young kids had no idea. The entire PT is written that way.
No, it’s written so it’s obvious he’s the Sith Lord. Why do you think him trying to egg Padme on is so on-the-nose? Him ordering Anakin to kill Dooku? Or the opera scene in Revenge of the Sith? There’s no attempt as a disguise of his voice or anything? It’s obvious on purpose. This is because Palpatine being evil is used to create tension. You’re supposed to know that something’s up with him. Most of the time it’s much better filmmaking to use tension then a surprise. Surprise can be great, but most of the time it’s way better to ring out the tension. It’s like Alfred Hitchcock’s famous quote. It lasts longer, it sticks with you more, it keeps you on the edge of your seat for longer.
The blurb on the back of the DVD cover certainly suggests that it wasn’t a big secret…
“Obi-Wan Kenobi, the wise old Jedi from the original series, is a determined young apprentice and Palpatine, well known as the evil Emperor, is an ambitious Senator in the Galactic Republic…”
When Palpatine reveals himself as a Sith in ROTS, it’s not even made to feel like a big of a reveal to the audience. It’s nothing like Vader revealing himself to be Luke’s father, which is obviously written as a big reveal from the way the scene slowly crescendos to the famous line to the huge bombastic music afterwards. Palpatine’s revealing he’s a Sith is nothing like that. There’s no big “gotcha!” moment. It’s made to be like a reveal to Anakin, not the audience.
And there is much more. Or else why as adults do we still love these films. His story telling is genius because it has layers for every audience. A five year old can watch it and love the gadgets and ships. A ten year old can love it because the story is incredible. An adult can love it because the story rings so true at every level.
12 year old’s are very good at digesting the intended story of Star Wars. He literally says he made the films to teach 12 year old’s lessons.
"The original film was designed to allow young people to think outside the box. It was designed for 12-year-olds, adolescents, kids who were starting to think outside the box anyway, as a way of saying, “Let your fantasies run free, because this is the time to do it.” That was one of the original purposes of “Star Wars.”
-Boston.com, 2005That’s why George Lucas uses his knowledge of avant-grade cinema to make all of his films very visual in their storytelling; it appeals to our primal reactions.
When Darth Vader first walks in the door in A New Hope, you know he’s the powerful evil dark lord of the Sith all because of the visuals. You see the huge guy with the black costume, the scary mask and the huge cape and immediately go, “He’s evil, he’s in charge, he’s super powerful, what a badass”. The same with Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace. You look at him and go, “Shit he looks like a Demon.” It’s why Mustafar blatantly looks like Hell. It’s why Sidious groans like a demon while Knighting Darth Vader (because Sidious is the Devil? Get it?). It’s why the Jedi Temple looks like a religious place of worship.
“The one exception to Coruscant’s predominant art deco style is the Jedi Temple. Lucas wanted the place where the Jedi to have a sacredness to it, as well as a daunting dose of grandeur. As a result, the Jedi complex is a bit Gothic, a bit pyramidal, and a but Chinese Forbidden City.”
-Jonathan Bresman, The Art of Star Wars: Episode I, 1999"In contrast to the corporate coldness of the senate building, the Jedi Council architecture was designed to suggest a place of worship, a place that was both religious and monumental. For reference, Chiang took pictures of monuments from various cultures, then exaggerated their shapes and heights in his drawings.”
-Laurent Bouzereau & Jody Duncan, The Making of Star Wars: Episode I, 1999“The symbol of good in the galaxy, the sacred Jedi Temple is a hybrid of Gothic, art deco, and ancient Chinese and Egyptian architecture. […] Inspired by the TransAmerica pyramid and the rest of the San Francisco skyline, Chiang and Natividad designed the temple complex to be distinctly different than the rest of Coruscant.”
-Jonathan Bresman, The Art of Star Wars: Episode I, 1999(nothing about an “ivory tower” here like the Star Wars fanbase likes to claim it’s meant to be interpreted as)
The movies are meant to be visually obvious. As is the dialogue, which is why Lucas writes the dialogue in such a flat, utilitarian, and blatant way.
Also you seem to be underestimating how smart a 12-year-old can be.
And frankly I think that you ignoring what is clearly in the films is ignoring some of Lucas’s brilliance as a storyteller.
I literally addressed everything you said. I think George Lucas is brilliant too. And so does David-Talks-SW. You’re just coming away with the wrong stuff. If you read David-Talks-SW posts you would realize George’s actual vision is even more brilliant then your fanon.
Also, you seem to think that Filoni made Clone Wars and Rebels in a vacuum away from Lucas.
No, I don’t. In fact I’m one of the few people who actually recognize that The Clone Wars was made by George Lucas. Which is why it fits his vision more then Filoni’s.
This post proves that Filoni doesn’t even entirely understand The Clone Wars (the series everybody says is his own and not George’s?):
https://www.tumblr.com/jedi-order-apologist/698124259656155136/yeah-exactly-theres-a-world-of-difference?source=shareThey worked together, with Filoni learning both about the Jedi and about film making from Lucas constantly for nearly a decade. So when Filoni describes Qui-gon’s role and the deeper meaning to the PT, things that are covered the PT and Clone Wars, I don’t think you can blanket state that the publicaly available comments Lucas has made override that level of apprenticeship that Filoni has had.
Except I literally gave you a link to a list of stuff that shows that Filoni interprets the prequels differently from Lucas in multiple different fashions, from The Jedi, to Anakin’s attachments, what they think of the Jedi joining The Clone Wars, and the state of the Republic. How about you actually read the shit I send?
The Clone Wars does not make Qui-Gon out to be “the only true Jedi Master”. It makes him out to be the guy who discovers force ghosting, which is exactly what he is in the movies. There’s nothing in TCW that implies that Qui-Gon should’ve been Anakin’s master and not Obi-Wan.
This post here describes the true meaning of Qui-Gon’s character:
https://www.tumblr.com/david-talks-sw/695196724085604352/analyzing-qui-gon-jinn?source=shareREBELS, however, has nothing to do with George Lucas. That’s Dave Filoni’s.
Lucas’s other public statements regarding things like when he came up with the PT story, how far back Leia was Luke’s sister, etc. are full of easily disproven information so I don’t tend to take Lucas at his word in interviews. He is selling Star Wars and there is a reason behind everything he says, but it is not always accurate to what he was thinking when he wrote the story or the scripts or directed the film. Often he greatly simplifies what he says and makes it sound like that is the way it has always been.
You can take him at his word because with Leia and Vader it was an attempt to make it seem like he knew everything from the beginning while with the Jedi he’s clearly giving them his own philosophy. Every lie George has done was for the sake of making it appear like what’s in the prequels was always the story. He lied about Vader always being Luke’s father and Leia always being his sister because he wants people to take the movies he’s making right now as “the true story”. That motivation doesn’t fit lying about the story he’s making at the time. It doesn’t make sense to say he was lying about the intent of the movies he’s making right now when the only reason he lies at all is to make the intent of the movies he’s making right now seem like the intent from the beginning. Come on, man. The motivations are not the same.
Like I said, the idea that George Lucas said the Jedi are the good guys just to appeal to the fanbase is absolute horseshit. Lucas doesn’t give a shit what the rabid fanbase says, he’ll praise Jar Jar and call Darth Vader pathetic and say Star Wars is for children (especially 12 year olds) despite how much backlash he’d get. He says what he says and means what he says. But you’re not gonna address that, are you? Cause you can’t.
I still think the most hilarious thing about your argument is your actually saying the guy notorious for saying “fuck the fans, fuck Hollywood, I’ll make what I want and say what I want” actually made up a bunch of lies about his films to cater to fans. Sorry but that’s a whole goddamn circus.
So yeah, when I rewatch that interview with Filoni I don’t hear him explaining what he thinks the PT story is. I hear him relaying to us what he learned from Lucas. His explanation of Duel of the Fates fits the name of the track,
It doesn’t fit the fact that Duel of the Fates plays in the battle between Yoda and Sidious which has nothing to do with Anakin. That reasoning for the name does fit with the fact that it was a track made to symbolize the battle between Good and Evil.
These quotes are from John Williams, not George Lucas. Wanna try your “George Lucas hid the truth” conspiracy theory horseshit on this one?
Qui-gon is determined to train Anakin and instead he gets Obi-wan. Instead of a seasoned Master he gets a newbie Knight.
Except if you actually read the shit I send it would prove why Obi-Wan was a great master for Anakin. Anakin’s fall was not Obi-Wan’s fault.
Anakin would’ve been a great Jedi Master like Qui-Gon if it weren’t for Palpatine.
Filoni’s interview puts it in words, but his words really ring true.
Literally no. I already sent you a link to a post which proves everything he says wrong. Fucking read the shit I send before you reply to me looking like a butt-monkey.
Especially in light of how Qui-gon might have returned in ROTS.
He did return in ROTS, but only to tell Yoda about force ghosting. That was his only planned appearance ever in that film.
But after TPM, it is tracked where Anakin is facing a turning point.
You mean when Yoda and Sidious are fighting?
And it hinges on that duel on Naboo. It turned on who lived and who died.
If you read the shit I sent you you would know it’s not true. The notion that Anakin was doomed to fail from the get-go is going against the principle of choice that George was adamant to include in the Prequels. Anakin’s fall was caused by his own choices, not the outcome of some duel that has nothing to do with him. This is Filoni coming up with head canon because he thinks the duel is “boring” if it has nothing to do with Anakin. I know this is head canon because it goes against what John Williams says the track is meant to symbolize and it goes against one of the main themes of the prequels.
Yes, fate/destiny plays a part in Star Wars, but whether you follow it is contingent on your choices. As Lucas puts it:
George Lucas says it hinged on Anakin choosing to kill Palpatine in the office. If there was no Palpatine, Anakin would’ve been just fine. Anakin’s turn was not Obi-Wan’s fault.
So I see no reason to not take Filoni’s desription as 100% accurate. He has always been more literal and forthcoming in interviews where Lucas seems to be forever altering things.
Lucas has not once altered his opinion on the Jedi. Back in the 1980s, 2000s, and nowadays, he still says the Jedi were right and still echoes their philosophy as if it were his own.
You also didn’t address that the Jedi’s philosophy is obviously Lucas’. Wanna know why? Cause you can’t (: you lost
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/j690eHY9EAQ
^^^ Here’s George Lucas just recently agreeing with Yoda in ROTS when he tells Anakin he needs to let go of what he fears to lose
^^^ Here’s George Lucas agreeing with the Jedi at a fucking University lecture
I used to be the resident prequel hater here but I think you’re selling the prequels short, brother
I didn’t say the prequels weren’t complex at all though.
I said:
Not that the prequels aren’t complex, but the fact is, “The Jedi are good, the Sith are bad” is a still a bit too black and white for some adults. So they have to make it “You see, Jedi ideology is actually somewhat wrong, they say you can’t ever be afraid or attached to anybody, what assholes!” when that’s not what Jedi ideology is. But people wanna cling on because the idea that the Jedi are morally perfect is boring to them. Adults project flaws onto the Jedi because they can’t relate to morally perfect characters like children can.
People like to cling to the idea that the Jedi were corrupt because it’s makes the prequels more complex then “The Jedi were right, Anakin was wrong.” But that’s not what Lucas is going for. They just don’t wanna accept that Anakin only turned to the dark side because he was greedy for the power to cheat death. It makes Anakin’s turn seem more reasonable or logical to say, “Well actually he was rebelling against a religion that bulled him into repressing his emotions, therefore it was reasonable for him to commit genocide” (not that that justifies killing all the Jedi anyway, but some people like to act like it does). But that’s not true and that’s not the narrative of the prequels. The prequels still have complex themes about democracies and dictatorships, greed, possessive love, war, etc. But it is not, in any way, a critique of the Jedi or a critique of organized religion.
George Lucas made the prequels to show how democracies become dictatorships and how fear, greed, and refusing to let go leads to the dark side. That’s it.
Talk about overload. And you keep referring to someone else’s analysis. I’m not interested in what someone else thinks. I’m interested in your analysis and interpretation. If you are just going to parrot someone else ad nauseam, then you need to just stop. It has just become noise.
My primary source is the movies themselves. Then what the creators have said based on the reliability of their history. And if you are skilled enough with Google or any other search engine, you can quickly find information that refutes everything you just posted. I prefer to file information away in my head than save the links to throw at people who dare disagree with me. You write as if my opinion is a personal affront to you. Frankly, this post has just proven that I don’t really care what your opinion is. I will trust in my sources and keep my opinion and share it when appropriate.
That you credit Lucas with Clone Wars and yet ignore all the things in Clone wars that disagree with your talking points… well, we could go on but what is the point. You will just post another diatribe that isn’t worth reading because it is so long and repetitive and is trying to force me to change my opinion - which is not going to happen. I firmly believe Lucas’s 6 saga films clearly show that the Jedi in the PT were flawed. They were not able to address the issues Anakin came to them with. It was a failing on the part of the Jedi that Anakin fell. Any other interpretation, as far as I’m concerned, does not fit with the films Lucas made.
And to give you an idea how much I trust Lucas, he has been quoted as saying both that the force is not like yin/yang and that it is exactly like yin/yang. I trust the movies that he made and what he imparted to Dave Filoni in thousands of story meetings and the series that have resulted from that. Clone Wars, Rebels, The Mandelorian, and the ST are colored by that more than what Lucas said in various interviews that conflict with that or other things he said.
So just please stop posting all this noise. Share your own thoughts and stop trying to argue me into changing my opinion. It isn’t going to happen.
I’ve been working on my own fan edit and I came to the conclusion that while the new 2020 release is excellent in many ways, there are a few sections I had to replaced with the 2011 version and a few I had to go back to the original with the 4K77 version. Namely a lot of the cockpit shots in the Death Start Battle. Both the 2011 and 2020 have some extreme fading of some of the midtones that just can’t be fixed. Replacing them with the 4K77 version of the shot and color correcting the darker cockpit background brings a much more natural look.
Though for my ideal fan edit, I really need a few of your corrections to make it perfect. Any chance of your 1080p version being released in the near future?
Well, I actually have progress on this. Eps 1-4 are edited. 5 and 6 are in the works (I dug up this ancient thread to remind myself what my thoughts had been and they haven’t changed much). 4 and 5 will be about half specialized. 6 will have Oola and the Dug, but Lapti-Nek and then theatrical until the victory celebration and then the 97 SE, but with 2019 shots of Coruscant. 7-9 still in the thinking process, but mostly the theatrical.
Ep 2 has cuts to Obi-wan/Anakin debate. Ep 3 has Dagobah scene added.
Zero progress on the 2nd edit including the deleted scenes. That would be max 720p. The SE edits are going to be 1080p and is largely thanks the the D+77, D+80, and D+83 from Oteedee.
Thanks to some new material after the new saga release, I have new ideas for this. Though it is not at the forefront of my efforts any longer.
I take it you are asking for reviews of some of the different PT fan edits. I haven’t watched many recent ones. A few of the older ones were fun. One dubbed Jar Jar and the Nemoidians in other languages and subtitled them. It was a great improvement.
It is layering. A interesting story for children and also an interesting story for adults. Children see only the glorious Jedi and adults see the cracks and flaws and how the Jedi fail Anakin which leads to his fall. Children seen someone giving in to anger and hate and turning bad. A very good moral lesson. Adults see lopsided teachings, an evil mentor grooming Anakin for an evil future, and a dogmatic religious order out of step with the times. Kids see a story about what not to do and Adults see a story about what not to do - both aimed at their age group. Brilliant story telling. If only the dialog and directing was so brilliant.
George Lucas has said over and over that the films are made specifically for 12 year olds. Over and over. Why would he incorporate something that’s apparently so essential for the story that would go over their heads? Especially when 12 year olds are supposed to be the main audience? He literally says that the optimal age to watch Star Wars is when your 12. How does it make any sense that essential parts of his films would not be able to be digested by children? Because the answer is that it’s not. That’s something you made up. Why would he make the films so that Yoda is obviously meant to be the all-wise mentor figure and the Jedi the good guys? Because he wants children to use the Jedi as a moral basis. He wants children to learn Jedi teachings, AKA his own philosophy.
Also Palpatine grooming Anakin is so obvious children would be able to see it. That’s not something only an adult would be able to see. That’s why you will see adults complain how about obvious Palpatine’s manipulation is. “Why is Anakin so stupid, why can’t he see he’s being manipulated?”, “Why’s Palpatine so obviously evil?” The answer is he’s making it obvious so that children can pick up on it.
The reason people project these alternative meanings on the prequels is because they’re films for children, and therefore will make it more complex then it actually is in a desperate attempt to make the films appeal to them more. Not that the prequels aren’t complex, but the fact is, “The Jedi are good, the Sith are bad” is a still a bit too black and white for some adults. So they have to make it “You see, Jedi ideology is actually somewhat wrong, they say you can’t ever be afraid or attached to anybody, what assholes!” when that’s not what Jedi ideology is. But people wanna cling on because the idea that the Jedi are morally perfect is boring to them. Adults project flaws onto the Jedi because they can’t relate to morally perfect characters like children can.
Um… have you watched the prequels? Us old farts knew Senator Palpatine was Darth Sideous when we saw him in his first scene. Young kids had no idea. The entire PT is written that way. And there is much more. Or else why as adults do we still love these films. His story telling is genius because it has layers for every audience. A five year old can watch it and love the gadgets and ships. A ten year old can love it because the story is incredible. An adult can love it because the story rings so true at every level.
And frankly I think that you ignoring what is clearly in the films is ignoring some of Lucas’s brilliance as a storyteller.
Also, you seem to think that Filoni made Clone Wars and Rebels in a vacuum away from Lucas. Lucas approved every episode of Clone Wars. They worked together, with Filoni learning both about the Jedi and about film making from Lucas constantly for nearly a decade. So when Filoni describes Qui-gon’s role and the deeper meaning to the PT, things that are covered the PT and Clone Wars, I don’t think you can blanket state that the publicaly available comments Lucas has made override that level of apprenticeship that Filoni has had. Lucas’s other public statements regarding things like when he came up with the PT story, how far back Leia was Luke’s sister, etc. are full of easily disproven information so I don’t tend to take Lucas at his word in interviews. He is selling Star Wars and there is a reason behind everything he says, but it is not always accurate to what he was thinking when he wrote the story or the scripts or directed the film. Often he greatly simplifies what he says and makes it sound like that is the way it has always been.
So yeah, when I rewatch that interview with Filoni I don’t hear him explaining what he thinks the PT story is. I hear him relaying to us what he learned from Lucas. His explanation of Duel of the Fates fits the name of the track, the name of the DVD menu title, and what we see on screen. Qui-gon is determined to train Anakin and instead he gets Obi-wan. Instead of a seasoned Master he gets a newbie Knight. Filoni’s interview puts it in words, but his words really ring true. Especially in light of how Qui-gon might have returned in ROTS. But after TPM, it is tracked where Anakin is facing a turning point. I think it is clear from how the track was used throughout the PT that the fate in question is Anakin’s and from there the entire galaxy. Anakin’s fall plunges the galaxy into decades of suffering. And it hinges on that duel on Naboo. It turned on who lived and who died. So I see no reason to not take Filoni’s desription as 100% accurate. He has always been more literal and forthcoming in interviews where Lucas seems to be forever altering things.
This is a good read, though I disagree with his notion that the Jedi being wandering adventurers would have made them less morally perfect. I get what he means, though. We look at the Jedi now from a wary adult perspective, but when I watched the prequels as a child, the Jedi were simply good guys and that was that. It’s when you get older that you start thinking, “Wait, why didn’t the Jedi do this or this?”
It is layering. A interesting story for children and also an interesting story for adults. Children see only the glorious Jedi and adults see the cracks and flaws and how the Jedi fail Anakin which leads to his fall. Children seen someone giving in to anger and hate and turning bad. A very good moral lesson. Adults see lopsided teachings, an evil mentor grooming Anakin for an evil future, and a dogmatic religious order out of step with the times. Kids see a story about what not to do and Adults see a story about what not to do - both aimed at their age group. Brilliant story telling. If only the dialog and directing was so brilliant.
That is how it is supposed to work.
It’s not “how it’s supposed to work”, it’s how it does work. George Lucas says of the Jedi, “They are the most moral of anyone in the galaxy.” He says Jedi are allowed to love. Not just Qui-Gon. All of them.
What Lucas told Dave Filoni about the duel in TPM being truly a duel for the fate of Anakin, makes it clear that this was Lucas’s intent.
No. Lucas didn’t tell Filoni that. Filoni made it up.
Here’s a whole post covering Filoni’s “Duel of the Fates” tangent. In short, almost none of it follows Lucas’ vision. It’s all his headcanon.
https://www.tumblr.com/david-talks-sw/678157778408374273/hi-this-came-about-because-ive-seen-a-few-of?source=shareThe rest of the comments are about Jedi in general. But you have to look at the fallen Jedi as well as those who remained in the order to see what Lucas did. The Jedi training did not work for everyone and it periodically failed.
22 Jedi over a thousand years left. Three of them turned to the dark side. These are the exceptions, not the rule. It’s not the fault of the teachings, it’s the fault of the person who refuses to use them.
At the same time, the Jedi weren’t able to deal with Anakin’s fears and teach him how to let go.
It’s not that they didn’t try to help Anakin it’s that Anakin refused the help the Jedi tried to give him.
Rian Johnson tied into this in TLJ with what Luke was saying about the Jedi.
No again. Luke blames the Jedi for his mistake. His arc is realizing that it was his personal failing that led to Ben’s turn and not the result of the Jedi way. He even admits at the end that the Jedi should live on.
And going along with that, I’ve noticed an interesting pattern. In TROS we see Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo openly use a force healing power.
Force healing was not come up with by George Lucas. And even if so, force healing is a part of the Jedi way because it’s inherently selfless. So there’s no reason to bring it up.
But in the Prequels, the way the Jedi teach this is to avoid love as it leads to attachment.
George Lucas says otherwise, and in the prequels themselves, nobody says that.
Just admit this is your head canon. Everybody has them.
You seem to have ignored all the OT things I pointed out.
It is not just my head canon. It is there in the films.
I don’t agree that Filoni made it up. It is well documented how much he worked with Lucas directly. If he says that is what Lucas told him, I believe him.
There is an entire thread on this site about Lucas being an unreliable narrator because he continually changes things. The various edits to the OT and PT films aren’t the only thing he changes. After the OT was complete, he liked to claim that Vader was always intended to be Luke and Leia’s father when that is very obviously not the case. The films and the previous drafts of the scripts prove otherwise.
To be honest, I really don’t stop to consider anything Lucas says that seems to conflict with the movies. And that tends to be quite a lot of what he says. So as far as I’m concerned, if you are listening to Lucas over the films themselves that is a non-canon head canon. The films disagree with him on a number of levels and what Filoni shared of his conversations with Lucas better agrees with the films than his own comments do. I referred to Filoni because what he has shared of his conversations with Lucas agrees with what I got out of the films long before he had done a single episode of Clone Wars. His comments add layers to the PT that agree with my own previous observations. Same with Luke’s comments in the ST. The only EU book I have read since the mid 90’s has been the Millennium Falcon book. I have largely ignored the EU so none of my observations have anything to do with the EU. It is only the the Saga films themselves. From the films I see the flaws in the Jedi. They are less than what they were. I think George often speaks of the Jedi at their height, not the Jedi just before their fall.
The films very much established that younglings are recruited before any bad habits can set in. Anakin is not that young. Luke is even older. With Anakin they try the normal youngling training and it fails. Fear is part of who Anakin is already and the teachings about fear fail. He needed teachings about anger and hate, not fear. Yes, he needed to work on his fear, but to stop any fall to the dark side, he needed teachings about anger and hate and that is never shown. The implication of his age and the various comments is that he is too old and the normal Jedi teachings don’t work. Fast forward to Obi-wan and Yoda dealing with Luke, they have adjusted their teachings to account for his age where they had not for Anakin. From a writing perspective with the PT being written later, that has to be a deliberate choice on Lucas’s part. He pulls the PT Jedi back to teaching to avoid fear. Anakin had fear, but Luke has anger. And yet Anakin fell and Luke did not? What is one key difference? What they were taught. You can see that Lucas analyzed what the failing with Anakin was and came up with something that Obi-wan and Yoda had fixed to teach Luke. You can see the difference in teachings in the PT and OT. The only reason for that is to show that the PT Jedi failed Anakin due to failures of their teachings. They could not adapt to Anakin’s age or inherent fear. Obi-wan and Yoda wanted to make sure that did not happen with Luke and trained Luke so that when Palpatine and Vader goaded him far enough, that he could come back from it.
In the films themselves we don’t see that in great detail, but what we see and hear shows a change from PT to OT in their methods. The only way you can arrive at a reason for that change lies in Anakin’s fall and their adaption to prevent Luke having that same issue. And that IS in the dialog. They make many references to Anakin as they teach Luke. This goes along with Yoda’s advice in TLJ - to learn from your mistakes. That dialog just puts to words what we already saw Yoda do. So it there was a mistake, that means the PT Jedi did something wrong. They failed in training Anakin. They failed detecting Palpatine and his influence. They failed in a number of ways and Obi-wan and Yoda train Luke differently in several key ways. The PT Jedi ways work for younglings, but they fail for those who are older. It makes you wonder how many older force sensitive beings the Jedi decide not to train. Their numbers are greatly reduced and they could use the additional recruits. But if they don’t know how to train someone older who has issues then it makes sense.
Anakin’s falls shows Yoda and Obi-wan a failing in the Jedi and they train Luke at 19 and 22 in a different way. He is attached to his friends. Rather than stop him from going, they using it as a teaching moment. They use it to further his Jedi education and build his ability to stay on the light side. And it works. A year later when he returns Yoda proclaims him ready for his final test. Luke is headstrong and does many things his own way, but in that moment when he looks at Vader’s severed mechanical arm and his own mechanical hand, those lessons from Yoda and Obi-wan dominate the emotions running through him. Their revised teachings worked. If the PT Jedi were right, there would be no need to show a difference in training. That there is a difference between the PT and OT is how you can tell that this is something deliberate that Lucas did. That is how you can tell what he told Filoni is accurate. That is how you can tell a lot of his interviews were BS. He didn’t want to make the mistakes other franchise celebrities had made. Shatner for instance. The PT celebrated Jedi and Lucas wanted to publicly encourage that. But when it came to the story, small failings in the Jedi are an integral part of it. They were not deliberately corrupt or out of balance or out of step. They were a product of the failings of the Republic. I would even say they were victims of Palpatine’s plot to take over. How long had he been working before TPM? Was Darth Plagueis working on it before that? The Sith wanted to bring down the Jedi so who knows how far back it goes. So the Jedi were victims of that Sith plot as much as Anakin was the victim of the flaws in the Jedi training.
The PT Jedi relied on recruiting them young and training them from a very young age and training them to avoid attachments and fear. That system did not work for Anakin or Luke. They failed Anakin, but they did not fail Luke.
You know, the more I read this discussion, the more I realize that this is not a discussion about the Jedi teachings and theology, but simply a confrontation between two philosophies and two different ways of understanding life.
On one hand, there are those who are in favor of Romanticism, expressing their passions and having selfish feelings, but without letting these things take over and balancing them with altruism. On the other hand, there are those who are completely opposed to passion and selfishness and profess absolute altruism, instead of a form of altruism that Is balanced with selfishness. It’s for this reason that Anakin’s story and tragedy have a different meaning depending on the person who talks about them.
Our contrasts have actually nothing to do with Star Wars, they’re simply a reflection of what we think and what our philosophy of life is. So if anything, if we have to discuss these things, I think we should do it in the appropriate sections, where we can discuss about personal things, philosophy and stuff like that. Because again, this discussion about the Jedi is nothing more than a transposition of what we think and what our philosophy of life is. So I think we should bring the discussion back to the objective reality of things, without necessarily having to involve Star Wars.
I’m just talking about Lucas’ intentions in all this. I am a very passionate person (more then most, I think) and I don’t think having selfish desires is inherently a bad thing at all, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. Hell, I have Peter and MJ from the MCU in my pfp lmao.
I don’t think Lucas does either though. He’s married. He has kids. He’s a passionate guy. We’re talking Mr. “I want to make the film I want to make and I refuse to back down the studios”. The Jedi are allowed to leave if they want to pursue their selfish desires. But as Lucas says, “A Jedi can’t be selfish”. Being a Jedi is a commitment, a way of life. It’s something that a Jedi has to do. The Jedi’s is based on his philosophy somewhat (especially when it comes to unchecked fear being the root of evil and letting go of things), but at the same time they’re an Order that needs to have rules. If Lucas doesn’t think anybody should get married then he shouldn’t have gotten married. But he did. Twice. He got married again in 2013 after making the prequels. It’s obvious that’s not him saying, “You can’t get married, ever! Bad!” He’s saying that a Jedi can’t get married because of commitment. If you want to get married, you need to leave the Order.
Well, you kind of made my point there. Yoda said that fear leads to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. At what point are you doomed to the dark side? It isn’t just fear. The entire teaching is based on stopping at fear. It is established in The Phantom Menace than Anakin has fear. The council does not want to teach him based on that. He has not given in to his anger, which we see when Palpatine is testing his chosen apprentices. The movies establish that the jump from anger to hate is where you get trapped. The Jedi are stopping at fear to avoid anger and hate. They are avoiding the path to the dark side by cutting it off at fear. Conquering your fear is a good teaching. But it was not the point that Anakin needed.
Yeah, the point is that they need to conquer their fear and confront it instead of bottling it up and leaving it unattended. If you don’t confront your fear, it’ll consume you. And anger and hate is what it’ll lead to. Conquering fear is not a bad thing for Anakin. It’s what he needs to do to live a healthy life. And as I’ve said, the reason they reject him is because he is bottling up his fear. He won’t conquer it because he won’t acknowledge that it exists.
Also the Jedi did not change their opinion on fear by ESB. Yoda even lists fear as one of the things that leads to the dark side. “Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they”.
My point has been that starting the path to the dark side at fear is inaccurate. Conquering fear is definitely a good thing. But if that proves difficult, making sure it does not lead to anger or hate works as well to ensure you don’t fall to the dark side. Obi-wan saw this and in TESB warns luke about hate. Palpatine was working at that same place. He knew that fear was not sufficient to lead someone to the dark side. Aggression, anger, and most importantly hate. “Let the hate flow through you.” Not fear, but hate. A Jedi can fear. A Jedi can be angry. But hate is anathema to a Jedi and is the door to the dark side. The path may begin at fear, but through proper teaching that path can be trod without falling to the dark side. But when you get to hate, you are at the doorway and can fall through. As we see with Anakin. That was also one of the things they played with in the Sequels. Kylo Ren never really let the hate consume him. Anger yes. He was very angry, but he never fully gave himself to hate which enabled his return to the light side. But I’d rather focus on the OT and PT. The OT makes it very clear that hate is where the Dark Side pulls you over. Anakin could have avoided that if he had been taught to accept his fear and not let it extend further into anger and hate. But they repeatedly harped on fear.
You know, the more I read this discussion, the more I realize that this is not a discussion about the Jedi teachings and theology, but simply a confrontation between two philosophies and two different ways of understanding life.
On one hand, there are those who are in favor of Romanticism, expressing their passions and having selfish feelings, but without letting these things take over and balancing them with altruism. On the other hand, there are those who are completely opposed to passion and selfishness and profess absolute altruism, instead of a form of altruism that Is balanced with selfishness. It’s for this reason that Anakin’s story and tragedy have a different meaning depending on the person who talks about them.
Our contrasts have actually nothing to do with Star Wars, they’re simply a reflection of what we think and what our philosophy of life is. So if anything, if we have to discuss these things, I think we should do it in the appropriate sections, where we can discuss about personal things, philosophy and stuff like that. Because again, this discussion about the Jedi is nothing more than a transposition of what we think and what our philosophy of life is. So I think we should bring the discussion back to the objective reality of things, without necessarily having to involve Star Wars.
I would agree that often our personal beliefs and experiences color how we look at things. I find that in examining why I have the opinions I do about Star Wars and the various films and series, that it leads back to my own personal experiences and studies. Some things are generational. Some things are age of exposure. Some are background. And you mix them all up and each of us comes to these topics with vastly different perspectives. I find that there are people I argue with on one topic that I agree with on another.
The Jedi teaching that we get in the first 6 films are all based on avoidance.
No, it’s not.
“…overcome fear which leads to hate”. Oh, it’s almost like a Jedi needs to face their fear and overcome it. Not avoid it.
Yoda saying “Once you start down the dark path…” is not saying “Once you feel fear once, you’l; be on the dark side forever.” That’d be ridiculous, especially considering Yoda admits he’s afraid for Anakin’s training at the end of Phantom Menace. It’s saying, “Once you turn to the dark side, you’ll never be able to turn back.” Which is true, for the most part. Sidious never turned. Maul never turned. Dooku never turned. Vader only turned because of his son. Even his wife and master couldn’t convince him to turn. If it weren’t for Luke, the dark side would forever dominate his destiny. Yoda is making a generalization.
A big part of the path of the Jedi is about confronting your fears and overcoming it. It’s what the scene with Kanan and the temple guards is about, in Rebels. The Ithorian youngling getting his kyber crystal (overcoming his fear of the scary cave) in The Clone Wars. Yoda overcoming Dark Yoda in The Clone Wars. It’s why Yoda told Luke to go into the dark side cave on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back. Because he knew Luke would see what he’s afraid of. He needs to face it and overcome it. If Jedi’s relationship with fear was avoidance, he would’ve told Luke not to go in there.
Well, you kind of made my point there. Yoda said that fear leads to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. At what point are you doomed to the dark side? It isn’t just fear. The entire teaching is based on stopping at fear. It is established in The Phantom Menace than Anakin has fear. The council does not want to teach him based on that. He has not given in to his anger, which we see when Palpatine is testing his chosen apprentices. The movies establish that the jump from anger to hate is where you get trapped. The Jedi are stopping at fear to avoid anger and hate. They are avoiding the path to the dark side by cutting it off at fear. Conquering your fear is a good teaching. But it was not the point that Anakin needed. Yes, we see both Obi-wan and Luke give in to anger and fight like wildcats (TPM and ROTJ), but were either one on the path the dark side? They did not let their anger consume them. It did not turn to hate. Well, no more than a moment. For Anakin, fear is an old friend. And there was so much he didn’t have to fear. He was very powerful so a great many things did not cause fear. But fear of loss and change was deep in him. For him to succeed he needed a different set of teachings, one the Jedi were not prepared to provide. But one that Qui-gon apparently would have.
When Obi-wan warns Luke in TESB he says “Don’t give in to hate. that leads to the dark side.” That totally resets what Yoda said in the PT. Looks like some reflection on Anakin’s fall led him to rethink how to warn Luke. Luke does not give in to hate where his father did. But Luke’s actions in TESB are driven by his fear for his friends. So Obi-wan gives him a more accurate warning for where the danger point really is. And we see the results.
So given what we seen and the dialog, the PT Jedi are setting the bar for the dark side well to the safe side of the actual danger point. They want to avoid fear (a good teaching but not accurate for the fall to the dark side). But in TESB Obi-wan gives Luke the honest point, one that all the dark side masters use in their temptations, as giving in to hate. The difference between fear and hate is vast. It was the difference between Anakin staying on the light side and him falling to the dark side. It is right there in the movies. So regardless of what Lucas has to say, his films speak for themselves and reveal the disparity between what the Jedi taught and what the danger point really was.
I feel like the prequels would absolutely not be “ruined” if they were written well in terms of portraying Lucas’ intentions. In fact it’s kinda laughable IMO to say that making the audience care about and sympathathize with the Jedi, show them as kind and compassionate monks would make the movies worse. Imagine how much more heartbreaking Order 66 would’ve been if you actually cared about Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo-Koon, and the impact that Anakin betraying them all would have. The messages about not becoming too possessive of people and being selfish in your relationships wouldn’t be muddied. People would realize what Anakin actually did wrong instead of blaming the Council for his actions. You wouldn’t have people saying that the Sith “aren’t actually that bad”, despite the fact that the guy who wrote the Sith code openly said he was inspired by Mein Kampf and Lucas compares Sidious to Satan, that “bringing balance to the force means destroying the Jedi too”, or “the dark side isn’t inherently bad to use” (yeah, it is).
I feel that the PT does portray the Jedi as compasionate monks. The issue is with their dogma and theology. Given Qui-gon’s differences with the council and the issues Anakin has with the council and his training, I truly feel that Lucas wrote the Jedi to be slightly off from where they are supposed to be. George has a habit of speaking in generalities and not being terribly exact. I feel his comments about the Jedi are about the order as it was in Yoda’s youth and where the Jedi still think it is when it isn’t. When he was writing the PT he included a lot that made it into the films that counter what he said. To me the films speak more to what Lucas wanted than his interviews. He also said the force isn’t yin/yang and yet he wrote it in a way you can’t interpret it any other way. And Dave Filoni, probably George’s #1 student of the Star Wars universe, very definitely portrayed it as yin/yang - two halves of a whole. George is unreliable in interviews.
But as time has gone on, the prequel fandom has gotten more and more fervent and unironic and sensitive to criticism, which is a shame. Now you have all these video essays about how the prequels are masterpieces and how the flaws aren’t actually flaws.
I feel this, at one point I was on this side before I kinda came around to the realization that they’re just not that well-written. Even ROTS I still mostly like more for it’s mythological motifs, themes, visuals, and music more then the writing. The best scenes are the ones with either Palpatine (because Ian McDiarmid is fucking awesome) or the ones where no one is talking. The opening act and third act are also pretty awesome.
A lot of time headcanon or supplemental material (a lot of which isn’t even canon anymore, which is why you’ll see people mixing up Legends and Canon all the time) is used to explain bad writing. “The Jedi come across as too bored and uncaring… actually you see, it was supposed to be that way! They’re supposed to be an emotionally repressed cult! It all makes sense now!”. Nope, George is just a flat dialogue writer who failed to get his intent across, making many people misunderstand the entire point. Among other things.
There’s a lot I love about Lucas because when you read what he was intending for for the prequels it really is brilliant, but man he needed someone else helping him with his scripts.
That is the unvarnished truth. And it is somewhat ironic that he had help credited on AOTC and that one turned out the worst. He needed some quality help, like Kazdan, who showed he still had it with Solo.
I think the success of the originals are George’s genius story telling coupled with a lot of outside input to refine the story and the dialog. The various interviews reveal how much help he had on A New Hope and we can see how much he had on TESB And ROTJ. When it came to the prequels, no one evidently wanted to help him with the scripts or direct them. So what you have is more purely George than in the OT. The PT definitely reveal his flaws and where his genius lies. And I personally feel the ST would have been a repeat of the PT, perhaps worse, if George had done them himself. At least this way everyone can blame Abrams, Johnson, and Kennedy for the flaws (even blaming them for some decisions George made before selling to Disney).
But this final statement I have to disagree with. I feel that Lucas created the Republic Jedi Order in a very deliberate fashion.
Obviously wrong as the things Lucas says goes against your head canon.
But they are out of balance with the galaxy. Their ability to access the force is compromised.
They’re ability to use the force being compromised is because of the dark side clouding their vision, not the Jedi being bad at their jobs.
How they handle slavery is also addressed. Qui-gon says they are not there to free slaves. Okay. If it was a timing issue, why didn’t they go back and free some of the slaves. At least Shmi. That would have been one way to help Anakin get on the right path. Qui-gon might have had he lived. The other Jedi did nothing. So it was not a timing issue. It was a policy issue. The Jedi were being politically correct for their role in the Republic.
I already talked about this. I even brought up Shmi specifically. Please read what I said.
The Jedi have fallen from their high point and are now struggling and sacrifices have been made. Their teaching relies on avoidance rather than learning how to resist the dark side. Their missions have become more political - controlled by the Senate and Chancellor - than moral (going to help where they are needed). The Clone Wars are the final nail in their coffin because it emphasizes everything they are trapped into doing. And they get destroyed for it.
I also talked about their association with the Republic and not freeing slaves in the Outer Rim. Again, you’re not actually reading what I said.
Also the Jedi do learn to resist the dark side. It’s a part of their way.
If there is nothing wrong with the Jedi, why do they need the Chosen One to come and balance things?
The Chosen One prophecy is about destroying the Sith. Not the Jedi. The Sith are a cancer in the galaxy. They need to be destroyed.
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The Jedi teaching that we get in the first 6 films are all based on avoidance. “Once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny” So don’t even start or you are doomed. But what about if you have taken that first step? How do you get back? If you have a situation that leads to fear or anger, how to you stop it from happening again? That is why teaching avoidance makes no sense. It is a good policy for beginners, but the advanced class needs to have tools to deal with the real world and situations that would lead to an emotional response that could potentially lead the dark side and how to recover from it. If you learn how to fly a cesna and then advance to a P-51, the rules change. Just as advancing from youngling to Padawan to Knight to Master. The rules change. The real world situations change. The chance of being lured by the dark side increases. In most things you have to be taught the rules first and how to break them the right way later. The Jedi never teach how to break the rules the right way so that it does not become a dark side trap. Basically the way they Jedi teachings are portrayed, any slip up leads to a permanent risk of turning to the dark side. And yet they never address those slips with Anakin.
As far as I’m concerned, freeing slaves is a minor point. I understand why they didn’t, though freeing Shmi would have been in Anakin’s best interest. I think freeing her would have prevented Anakin’s fall. But they Jedi were too self assured to think they needed to take that precaution.
