yotsuya

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

I saw a DVD rip somewhere with the OG effects but with the 5.1 remixes and I noticed new sounds

I can’t provide them myself unfortunately

I have examined the 5.1 mixes and there are no new sounds. They may appear new because they provide a modern effect, but from everything I can see, they are the original sounds filtered from the original mono, processed to give them a stereo spacial effect, and used as the right/left, right surround/left surround, and LFE channels while the mono fills the center. Chances are what you noticed are original effects that have been amplified by the process. The thing I noticed that makes it pretty certain that is what they did is that the dynamics of the left/right channels increases when there is no dialog. They obviously wanted the dialog to remain in the center channel and had to cut the audio more to filter out the dialog. It should be easy enough to check if someone can get the LD audio from one episode. Checking against the BR isn’t a good gauge because the audio is much crisper which leads to the waveforms looking very different.

Remember, most of the Tatooine shots were filmed on location in the deserts of Tunesia. So those were all clouds shot in a desert. And the matte paintings of the planet show lots of clouds. The clouds are supposed to be there and are very pervsive. some shots are cloud free, but where I live we have days like that as well. And while I don’t live in what is officially a desert, it is very arid most of our water comes form snowmelt off the mountains. So it would be a huculean task to remove all the clouds. And as someone pointed out, those vaporators need something in the air to pull out and clouds are usually caused by atmospheric humitity. They may seldom, if ever, see rain on Tatooine, but there is moisture and clouds are a natural result of that.

And as a real world example, Mars has clouds.

So clouds on Tatooine is perfectly sound and reasonable.

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

JayArgonaut said:

yotsuya said:

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode.

You’re referring to U.S. network TV?

In the UK, the BBC aired the episodes in their entirety - although they infamously refused to broadcast several episodes till the 90s due to concerns over their content.

yotsuya said:
the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots.

Extended or just their original full length format?

Original 50 minute run time plus interview content to fill 90 minutes of TV time.

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

Also, TOS exists entirely on film. TNG exists 99.9% on film. DS9, Voyager, and B5 have a large number of film elements, but a great deal of the FX were CG and only exist as broadcast video tape masters. So you would have to recreate the CG shots from scratch in order to convert them to HD. The film just has to be rescanned, like with TNG. But it is the expense and time of the CG recreation that prevents it from happening. We got lucky with B5 that JMS convinced WB to do high quality conversion of the original master video tapes (making it as high quality as any shot on tape series of the day) that resulted in being able to see how fantastic it looked originally rather than the horrible uprez job done for the DVDs. We can hope that DS9 and Voyager get at least that quality, which is suitable for streaming.

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

I’ve had some projects in mind for quite some time and Oohteedee’s work has finally put sources in my grubby little paws that makes it easy. His D+XX releases start with a basic color correction to the D+ release and then all the SE changes (not the nearly invisible fixes) are removed with material from 35mm scans that are matched to the D+ footage. It is a dream to work with. The D+ footage has lots of issues if you want to make a truly great color correction. But with how Oohteedee releases these versions of the movies, everything is in a usable package that requires very minor adjustments. Well, there are some shots that just aren’t salvageable if you really want them to look good. I’ve replaced 5 shots from other 35 mm sources in ANH. But for the OT, every shot from the general release back in 77 through the 97 SE is available in HD (or 4K). I’ve so enjoyed comparing the SE changes with properly matched OUT shots and getting lost as to which was which because it is so well done. Not only are his versions more watchable than the official release, but they are an invaluable resource for anyone wanting to do more than just watch.

RogueLeader said:

And it comes out tomorrow! Doesn’t seem like it will be a big thing, “Grogu and the Dust Bunnies”. A cute little short. But maybe we will see more if there is a lot of positivity around it.
Also, rocknroll, do you know how many of these projects have been officially confirmed by Lucasfilm and how many are reports? I feel like it is a running gag at this point about how Lucasfilm announces a project only for it to go nowhere, but I am curious how many of those are just insider reporting. I mean, it isn’t unusual for filmmakers to work on projects with studios only for them to never get off the ground, but regardless it seems like there are a high number of them coming out of Lucasfilm.

Projects can take a while in development. Sometimes the development doesn’t work out. This has been their way with films for quite some time so it all makes sense in a way. Basically just because they announce they are working on it, don’t count on seeing it.

SparkySywer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

What’s conveyed by the writing, cinematography, editing, and cultural context > authorial intent.

I feel like I’ve 180’d completely very quickly on this. Storytelling is a form of communication, and taking messages from a someone that they didn’t intend to convey would be considered dishonesty, or at the very least unfair. I think Death of the Author is a useful tool, especially in cases where an author doesn’t really get the appeal of their own work (e.g. George Lucas, JK Rowling) which go to show that treating authorial intent as objective truth misses very important aspects of a work of art. But I think placing authorial intent on such a low pedestal also misses very important aspects of a work of ar. I don’t know how useful of an analytical tool this is, but if disagreement between the author and audience is a miscommunication, then we should analytically look at a work both for its intended message and its received message, which are coequal.

I would tend to agree with you, but in this instance I think that the author (GL) has a history of being very loose with the historical facts in interviews and restructuring the story of the past to fit the narrative they are trying to tell. In this case it is not in his interests with his fanbase to delve into the flaws he wrote into the Jedi Order, but it is in his interests to expound on the ideals of the Jedi Order. He already established a baseline with Luke in the OT. In the PT he establishes a new baseline he doesn’t explain why it is different. He goes on as if it was always that when that was clearly not what he was doing when he wrote the OT. Fear had a minor part in Luke’s training. Ben and Yoda were more focused on anger and hate and not giving in to the dark side. Anakin is told not to fear. Controlling fear is the Jedi order. And yet from Luke we know that is not true. From Anakin’s fall we know that is not true. He doesn’t fall from fear, but from letting anger and hate consume him (exactly what they told Luke to avoid). His possessive love of Padme and his fear of losing her (like he lost his mother) drive him to the dark side. So fear has little to do with it. Anakin needed different lessons. Then Ben and Yoda acknowledge their mistakes when they train Luke indicates they see the flaws in how Anakin was trained and if they could go back and do it again Anakin would not fall. So it is a flaw in the system, in the institution. One that they fix for Luke.

Servii said:

The takeaway I’m getting from this thread is that George did intend for the Jedi Order to be flawed in the sense that they had a false sense of security and so failed to stop the Sith when they had the chance, but that George didn’t intend for the Jedi ideology itself to be flawed. That was an EU concept.

But Lucas knew what the EU was doing and even had a hand in directing it (though no creative input). Also, it is not the ideology that is flawed, but the institution and traditions. Good teachers must tailor the lessons to an individual student’s needs and abilities. This is why at the highest levels of education, teaching is one on one. As the Padawan is to the Master. When you expect all students to meet the same standards, you have a flaw in your institution.

G&G-Fan said:

BedeHistory731 said:

What’s conveyed by the writing, cinematography, editing, and cultural context > authorial intent.

This thread is entirely about whether it was George’s intentions or not. So that’s the discussion. It’s irritating whenever this discussion is had and someone has to come up and say, “It wasn’t conveyed well”, like yeah, no shit. Obviously it wasn’t since so many people are confused. But whether it was conveyed well isn’t the topic of discussion.

People will talk about how George was such a genius for making the Jedi Order ideologically flawed when that wasn’t his idea, and if you follow his intent they aren’t flawed in the ways people think. That wasn’t George’s idea, it’s yours.

Also no matter how well an intent was conveyed or not the authorial intent is still canon. If you decide to not watch the films from a different lens from what the author had in mind that’s your head canon, or fanon. Now obviously canon doesn’t matter to you and that’s totally cool. The issue is when someone talks about this re-interpretation of the Prequels as if it is canon.

I think you need to read up on how the creative process works. There are a lot of creative people who have shared their experiences. You start with the idea. Then you develop it. You work on it and improve it. In the written word (which is where Star Wars always starts) you write treatments and drafts. The story slowly changes as you develop it. We can see from the many interviews with Lucas over the years that this is absolutely the case for Star Wars. Lucas added in concept art. In some cases it archives some of his thoughts better than the writing. And you can see how the Jedi change over time as he worked on the saga from 1974 to 2012. So where do you want to pinpoint his intent? At what point do you freeze the fluid process to determine absolute intent? I don’t think you can. I think the OT very much shows where Lucas was with the Jedi when he started the PT and how he started it, with Qui-gon going against the council, that Kenobi trains Anakin against Yoda’s better judgement, and all the flaws that are crystal clear in the OT, that the Jedi were written from the start as flawed. They are too wrapped up in politics. They are being too strict in their teachings. They aren’t properly in tune with the force. They moved the bar to train Luke. The list of issues between how Luke was trained vs. how Anakin was trained vs. how Ahsoka was trained is huge. If Lucas didn’t go into the PT intending the Jedi to be flawed, he really screwed up because so much of what the story is in the PT is about the Jedi being flawed. They aren’t perfect at this point. They aren’t what they once were. It is written that way.

Here is how I interpret Lucas’s many comments. He does the PT. Interest in the Jedi skyrockets. He wants to encourage that because he likes his fans and there are a bunch of ways to make money on that interest. He isn’t going to go into interviews telling fans not to like the PT Jedi because they are flawed. As individual Jedi I don’t think they are. I think it is the institution and traditions and their function in the Republic that is flawed. So Lucas focus’s on Jedi being Jedi and rather than on the institution. He spends time in interviews telling fans how to be the ideal Jedi. He says that was his intention all along, just like he claims the Vader was going to be Luke and Leia’s father all along (which is demonstrably false). Lucas’s quote on the matter are not reliable for accessing the intent of Lucas the creative genius. Creative genius lives in the moment and does what the story requires (AOTC has a few things were you can tell he needed to pass the script by some friends like he did with ANH or a good screenwriter like TESB and ROTJ).

When it comes to his actual intent as a writer, I don’t think he often shares such insights publicly. I think John Williams and David Filoni probably know more of his intent than most others. Ralph McQuarrie might have as well. Those who have worked creatively with him. Duel of the Fates used a Welsh Poem translated into Sanskrit and then adjusted to fit the music.

Under the tongue root
a fight most dread,
and another raging
behind in the head

It is clear from this that the PT was going to be about the fight in Anakin’s head. This was externalized by the fight with Maul. That Filoni (after working for nearly a decade with Lucas and hearing first hand all about the Jedi directly from the source) tells us that the title directly refers to the fate of Anakin and that seems to agree with the lyrics Williams picked and that Qui-gon could have given Anakin a different path, one where he would not follow what they council taught, indicates to me that it is accurate and that the Jedi Institution has become hidebound and is in as perilous a situation as the Republic itself. I feel this is intrinsic to the PT and is written into the core of the store. So I very much feel it is Lucas’s creative intent that the Jedi of the PT are flawed. It is not in his interests as the owner and creator of Star Wars to alienate all the Jedi fans so his official line is quite different from the story he told on screen. Because he is not just saying what is in the films, but expanding on it and explaining it. Fans will take that and run with it. He knows that fans want to believe the Jedi are great (they once were before the PT, which the High Republic era should be showing us) just as other fans want to believe he always intended Vader (phonemically almost identical to the Germanic word for father) to be Luke’s father.

The question really lies in what you think shows intent. I feel that a writer’s previous writings show their creative intent. I feel that their work shows their intent far more than interviews. In an interview you have to ask why they are giving the interview and what they are looking to get out of it. I feel that Lucas’s intent in interviews is quite clear. I was involved in the West End RPG back before the SE came out. Much of what you find in the PT Jedi’s skills and abilities can be found in that game. Timothy Zahn was handed some of the sourcebooks as references to write his trilogy. Many of the alien names come from that game. And the game in turn was developed from the OT movies and other novels. Brain Daly first mentioned Med Packs in his Han Solo Trilogy which didn’t become a canon thing until TLJ. Lucas had a hand in all of these things. Lucas allowed Luke to get married and have a son in the EU. He had his own fall to the dark side and redemption. They did Tales of the Jedi comics in the 90’s which go back 4000-5000 years before and explore the ancient Jedi and the rise of the Sith. This all relates to fan expectation of what the Jedi would be revealed to be in the PT. Lucas did not want to disappoint while at the same time I think it is clear from what he wrote that he crafted the PT Jedi order to have issues that would aid in Anakin’s downfall.

Is the PT Jedi order evil? No. They just have issues. They are stuck in tradition over individuality. They would rather all their students conform rather than tailor their individual training. Anakin needed that individual touch. He needed a master who did not follow the council. Instead he got Obi-wan Kenobi who followed the council. I get this from the dialog in TPM.

Now, if you choose to accept that Lucas is giving us the unvarnished truth (something I just can’t agree with based on other established facts) I can see where you would think that they Jedi are not flawed. It is a nice think to think that Anakin’s fall was his own doing. That would be a valid story to tell. But the larger tragedy is that the Jedi order failed him. Their strict adherence to tradition and teaching by the book (Master Jocasta is emblematic of what is wrong with the PT Jedi going by how Lucas wrote them) is a contributing factor to his fall and his story could have played out differently had he been taught a different way. See, I heard Dave Filoni talk about the meaning of Duel of the Fates and I instantly absorbed it because it agreed to completely with everything I have seen in the PT story over the years. It was not some new insight. I knew that Qui-gon would have been a different teacher and things might have turned out different. But that interpretations makes it a certainty. The pieces fall into place. Lucas’s intent is clear. From his writing that is. From his interviews, not so much.

The the question really comes down to what sources you want to go by for Lucas’s intent. If you want to go by the works themselves, you get one answer. If you want to go by the interviews you get another. It is all a matter of which weigh in as more significant to you. There is no right answer because both are valid views. I hold a writer’s work reveals the author’s intent far better than any interview every could.

There is more to my argument as well, but the site rules and normal forum decorum about politics and religion prevent me from addressing those. Suffice it to say that I see many parallels to existing institutions in Star Wars and many of them are equally hidebound and on the bring of crumbing and if coupled with such political turmoil might collapse as the Jedi order did. I see warnings in the failings of the Jedi that match many other things in the saga. I very much believe that the flaws and failings of the Jedi that many perceive are very deliberate and intentional and I also believe his comments can be viewed as having a similar very deliberate and intentional purpose and both can exist together if you look at it from a certain point of view.

RogueLeader said:

G&G-Fan, don’t know if this is you, but someone mad a long-ass post on the Star Wars subreddit, r/MawInstallation today, basically defending the same idea you were. Thought it might be worth sharing here since it is relevant to the thread!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/ys4avb/the_jedi_were_the_good_guys_of_the_prequels/

I usually avoid reddit so I’m won’t follow the link, but the title is intriguing. I would have to agree that in the Prequels the Jedi ARE the good guys. They were always intended to be. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have flaws. And they are not even to blame for all the flaws because of the circumstances. Palpatine, and who knows how many generations before that, have been working in secret. I can’t say whether all of them have had the goal of defeating the Jedi, but Palpatine certainly did. He wanted ultimate power on all levels. And he got it. To do it he played a lot of games with the Jedi. He corrupted more than one of them. He put the galaxy into a war to get what he wanted and the Jedi felt the impact in their ability to access the force. So they admit to that flaw on screen. The other things are written into the story. I never accept George Lucas’s words of what he meant over what he actually wrote. His history of accuracy is not good. His recollections tend to be unreliable. Mainly because he answers everything from a certain point of view which may not be what he was thinking when he was writing, directing, and editing. He is notorious for doing this with the Original Trilogy.

But yes, the Jedi are without any doubt the good guys. But they are operating under a handicap and we are not seeing them at their best.

regularjoe said:

The motion is to move this convo to DMs is seconded. Kindly get a room.

Agreed.

regularjoe said:

The motion is to move this convo to DMs is seconded. Kindly get a room.

Agreed.

Fullmetaled said:

yotsuya said:

Fullmetaled said:

yotsuya said:

Omni said:

Fullmetaled, I receive updates on this thread as I’m very interested in updates from Ady and the edit. However, I’m not interested in your quest for HDR. Ady’s stated multiple times now that there won’t be an HDR grade. We have no idea what you’re talking about, or who you’re talking about, or what they said, or anything of the sorts. It doesn’t matter whether or not it can be done, all that matters is that it won’t be, and you’ve been told that several times by more than one person, again, including Adywan himself. Please stop derailing the thread.

Ah, but it is a useful discussion to understand what HDR really is. And yes, Andywan himself from his source files would be the only way to really get any useful HDR so if he has no interest (and I really don’t see the benefits since Star Wars was shot on film and is better suited to SDR due to the nature of most of the shots) then it is an academic conversation (at least on my part).

I believe that to an project like this and utilize the original HDR metadata, that your editing suite would have to import it that data, you edit the project and then it would have to generate new metadata (which I believe is encoded into the video) for the output. Similarly, if you are using something capable of it, you can have a project that was originally intended for SDR but output an HDR. It depends on the software what you need to do to achieve that, but I’ve seen several tutorial videos that show just how easy it can be (or hard in some cases, but still doable). But converting to HDR is far more than just copying the metadata.

So it doesn’t give you what was shown in theaters but better it’s more that it’s altering the picture with some films. I didn’t know that the way it was described it was get the colors that were in the actual film to be show on disc for the first time. now I’m hearing the opposite wow now I’m even more confused about what the purpose of hdr is.

Don’t confuse the level of colors and color space with color correction or color grading. Those are totally separate. I could get into a long winded explanation, but HDR does not magically make something look like it did in theaters. HDR is intended to take advantage of the higher dynamic range of modern TV’s and projectors that can deliver deeper blacks than SDR screen or film projection ever could. If you want to see what was shown in theaters, get the 4K77, 4K80, or 4K83 versions. Those are the most true to the original run and they are SDR. The Lucasfilm color grades have issues (the 2019 version less so than the 2011 version).

Prior to HDR, blacks were always grays. You cannot get true black when you use film pigments or LCD pixels to block out the light (and even less so on an old CRT). It will always be gray. HDR is for the OLED and laser projectors where the black is a complete absence of light. OLED screens have actual lighted pixel LED’s so when they are set to 0,0,0 black, they generate zero light. The same with the laser projectors. For pixels set to 0,0,0 black, they project no light for that pixel. So HDR’s real power is in showing those darker details. That can make a night scene pop in a dark theater by adding levels of darkness never before experienced. It also has more color depth so the color gradients are smoother with less possibility of noticeable color halos. When you add in compression, HDR will not show the same compression artifacts so the image will be closer to the original uncompressed image. HDR does not magically make a movie closer to the original. You have to know where its strengths are and edit accordingly. From what I’ve seen of how Star War has been delivered in HDR, the SDR masters have been faithfully converted, but there is not much difference between the 4k HDR and the HD SDR versions. If anything, OTEEDEE’s D+ version looks better and it is SDR. HDR is just a tool to take advantage of new tech and where applicable make older movies look their best, though few can truly take advantage unless the negatives are scanned in HDR and any flaws edited out.

So your saying in the case of the original trilogy hdr even a proper new hdr or Dolby vision scan wouldn’t add anything to it and would be pointless brightness black levels Etc.

That all depends on the effort put into it and how much you can pull out of the negatives. From all the scans of those films, there isn’t likely to be any improvements. The current release appears to be using HDR to improve the colors and clarity, but doesn’t have more detail in the shadows.

Fullmetaled said:

yotsuya said:

Omni said:

Fullmetaled, I receive updates on this thread as I’m very interested in updates from Ady and the edit. However, I’m not interested in your quest for HDR. Ady’s stated multiple times now that there won’t be an HDR grade. We have no idea what you’re talking about, or who you’re talking about, or what they said, or anything of the sorts. It doesn’t matter whether or not it can be done, all that matters is that it won’t be, and you’ve been told that several times by more than one person, again, including Adywan himself. Please stop derailing the thread.

Ah, but it is a useful discussion to understand what HDR really is. And yes, Andywan himself from his source files would be the only way to really get any useful HDR so if he has no interest (and I really don’t see the benefits since Star Wars was shot on film and is better suited to SDR due to the nature of most of the shots) then it is an academic conversation (at least on my part).

I believe that to an project like this and utilize the original HDR metadata, that your editing suite would have to import it that data, you edit the project and then it would have to generate new metadata (which I believe is encoded into the video) for the output. Similarly, if you are using something capable of it, you can have a project that was originally intended for SDR but output an HDR. It depends on the software what you need to do to achieve that, but I’ve seen several tutorial videos that show just how easy it can be (or hard in some cases, but still doable). But converting to HDR is far more than just copying the metadata.

So it doesn’t give you what was shown in theaters but better it’s more that it’s altering the picture with some films. I didn’t know that the way it was described it was get the colors that were in the actual film to be show on disc for the first time. now I’m hearing the opposite wow now I’m even more confused about what the purpose of hdr is.

Don’t confuse the level of colors and color space with color correction or color grading. Those are totally separate. I could get into a long winded explanation, but HDR does not magically make something look like it did in theaters. HDR is intended to take advantage of the higher dynamic range of modern TV’s and projectors that can deliver deeper blacks than SDR screen or film projection ever could. If you want to see what was shown in theaters, get the 4K77, 4K80, or 4K83 versions. Those are the most true to the original run and they are SDR. The Lucasfilm color grades have issues (the 2019 version less so than the 2011 version).

Prior to HDR, blacks were always grays. You cannot get true black when you use film pigments or LCD pixels to block out the light (and even less so on an old CRT). It will always be gray. HDR is for the OLED and laser projectors where the black is a complete absence of light. OLED screens have actual lighted pixel LED’s so when they are set to 0,0,0 black, they generate zero light. The same with the laser projectors. For pixels set to 0,0,0 black, they project no light for that pixel. So HDR’s real power is in showing those darker details. That can make a night scene pop in a dark theater by adding levels of darkness never before experienced. It also has more color depth so the color gradients are smoother with less possibility of noticeable color halos. When you add in compression, HDR will not show the same compression artifacts so the image will be closer to the original uncompressed image. HDR does not magically make a movie closer to the original. You have to know where its strengths are and edit accordingly. From what I’ve seen of how Star War has been delivered in HDR, the SDR masters have been faithfully converted, but there is not much difference between the 4k HDR and the HD SDR versions. If anything, OTEEDEE’s D+ version looks better and it is SDR. HDR is just a tool to take advantage of new tech and where applicable make older movies look their best, though few can truly take advantage unless the negatives are scanned in HDR and any flaws edited out.

Omni said:

Fullmetaled, I receive updates on this thread as I’m very interested in updates from Ady and the edit. However, I’m not interested in your quest for HDR. Ady’s stated multiple times now that there won’t be an HDR grade. We have no idea what you’re talking about, or who you’re talking about, or what they said, or anything of the sorts. It doesn’t matter whether or not it can be done, all that matters is that it won’t be, and you’ve been told that several times by more than one person, again, including Adywan himself. Please stop derailing the thread.

Ah, but it is a useful discussion to understand what HDR really is. And yes, Andywan himself from his source files would be the only way to really get any useful HDR so if he has no interest (and I really don’t see the benefits since Star Wars was shot on film and is better suited to SDR due to the nature of most of the shots) then it is an academic conversation (at least on my part).

I believe that to an project like this and utilize the original HDR metadata, that your editing suite would have to import it that data, you edit the project and then it would have to generate new metadata (which I believe is encoded into the video) for the output. Similarly, if you are using something capable of it, you can have a project that was originally intended for SDR but output an HDR. It depends on the software what you need to do to achieve that, but I’ve seen several tutorial videos that show just how easy it can be (or hard in some cases, but still doable). But converting to HDR is far more than just copying the metadata.

Fullmetaled said:

yotsuya said:

Fullmetaled said:

@adywan someone told me if you have the hdr or Dolby vision metadata from the original trilogy it can be added to your fanedit but the only thing I wasn’t sure on was would your new footage complicate that or not just wondering. because if it doesn’t I’m surprised you and nobody knew about this I didn’t know about until yesterday.

HDR is really just a different way of encoding the colors. Before OLED and Laser Projectors, there was a range to blacks. It basically expands that range. Someone skilled at the conversion could take any of his changes and render those shots in HDR. The only way to get true HDR is to shoot it in HDR. All old film was not designed for that and it will be an approximation. Some films can be scanned from the Original Negative and glean out some extra data when scanned as HDR. The Star Wars films are heavy on FX which really limits things. The scans we have were not scanned with HDR in mind, but with 3D in mind. So converting Adywan’s edit could be just as good as the Lucasfilm HDR version.

At least the way I understand it. You can discuss the color space and all the technical details, but at the root you have to have an original image that is suitable for HDR. Other have done HDR conversions of non-HDR sources.

So how can the lucasflim’s hdr grade be added to it then now I’m even more confused?

The Lucasfilm one could be emulated, but not added. It is a totally different color space and it would have to be converted back to HDR or edited in HDR. It is not a feature that you can just add. But like I said, there are some other projects that have applied an HDR conversion to a non-HDR source. I have no interest in HDR because I don’t think it add anything to older film sourced content. Nothing on film intended for a theater should have deep blacks. The original viewing is incapable of having deep blacks. The same with older TVs. Only the new laser and OLED can produce true blacks and HDR conversions of older sources are really an adaption to the new viewing abilities that allow for true blacks.

And I would point out that converting from and HDR source to SDR for editing and then back to HDR will likely produce some data loss, though SDR has a unique flaw that can preserve some of the darker tones even if you can’t see them when you view it. Because the darkest black an SDR TV can display is 16 where our computer monitors go down to 0.

RGB TV color space is 16-235 or 10,648,000 colors (Color TV’s from the dawn of the tech to the latest flat screen SDR)
RGB Computer Monitor color space is 0-255 or 16,777,216 colors
HDR 10 color space is 0-1024 or 1,073,741,824 colors (HDR Blue-rays and TV’s)
HDR 12 color space is 0-4096 or 68,719,476,736 colors (Dolby Vision)
And then you have RGB 16 available in many photo editing suites (but I’m not going to calculate that out)

The key takeaway of this is that no SDR source can reproduce all those colors accurately when converted. BUT, that one area where you can gain is in the colors that are buried in SDR from 0-15 and 236-255. And how HDR displays thing is totally different so you can take advantage of data that you can see on your computer that isn’t visible on an SDR display. Also when you manipulate the video (color correction or other changes) you create variations that can be better captured by the more advanced encoding to preserve more of the image data. So while you can’t actually increase the quality of the image, moving from SDR to HDR could preserve more of the source that is lost when you re-encode to SDR. Also, HDR allows for tighter compression so those huge color pallet numbers have more room for loss and still produce a higher quality image. So not only do you gain darker blacks and brighter whites, but you gain the ability for higher compression and and more steps of detail. It is still RGB, but instead of 220 colors per channel, you jump to 1024 colors per channel (Before compression). So outputting a project to HDR instead of SDR can’t improve the source material, but it will lead to less loss of image quality and have the ability to have more dark and light details revealed that may be muddied otherwise. One of the things that often leads to errors (crushed blacks) is the change from computer to TV SDR, and that doesn’t exist in HDR.

I have a lot of experience with this in graphics and photos. Increasing the colors doesn’t increase what you have, but it does preserve more of what you have. And in the case of HDR, there are distinct advantages to the improved display that can increase the perceived image quality.

Fullmetaled said:

@adywan someone told me if you have the hdr or Dolby vision metadata from the original trilogy it can be added to your fanedit but the only thing I wasn’t sure on was would your new footage complicate that or not just wondering. because if it doesn’t I’m surprised you and nobody knew about this I didn’t know about until yesterday.

HDR is really just a different way of encoding the colors. Before OLED and Laser Projectors, there was a range to blacks. It basically expands that range. Someone skilled at the conversion could take any of his changes and render those shots in HDR. The only way to get true HDR is to shoot it in HDR. All old film was not designed for that and it will be an approximation. Some films can be scanned from the Original Negative and glean out some extra data when scanned as HDR. The Star Wars films are heavy on FX which really limits things. The scans we have were not scanned with HDR in mind, but with 3D in mind. So converting Adywan’s edit could be just as good as the Lucasfilm HDR version.

At least the way I understand it. You can discuss the color space and all the technical details, but at the root you have to have an original image that is suitable for HDR. Other have done HDR conversions of non-HDR sources.

Telion said:

Adywan, this my be seem out of the blue or random, but I’d just like to say for no reason at all, that (as I’m sure you know) not everyone appreciates you only for you window shopping suitablilty.
This is an Adywan appreciantion post. You’re great and you should be told that more.

Everyone has their own ideas about their perfect edit. Adywan’s purist edition is one of the best as it is the original cut with his fixes. He has made so many and spent so much time on the tools and skills that it would be hard to replicate everything. I just stuck to the 4 that bug me most and that was hard enough. I can edit, but such FX work is very difficult. I admire his skill and what he has produced and can’t wait to have his purist 1080p version in my collection. It probably will supplant the actual original cut, except when I’m feeling nostalgic.

I finished binging this last night and I have to say that I am not as impressed as others seem to be. I found the story kind of slow. I’m still waiting for the culmination of Cassian’s line to Jyn Erso that he has done some questionable things. This is supposed to be the first of two seasons and I feel this hasn’t taken us that far.

This story takes place in the same universe as Rebels. Rebels covered the years up to ANH and we me some of the same characters and Bail Organa’s end of the Rebel Alliance.

I truly enjoyed Obi-wan Kenobi more than this. It is definitely better orchestrated than The Book of Boba Fett, but I would not call it the best Star Wars series by any stretch of the imagination. Mandalorian has the action and story. Obi-wan has story. This has a little of both moving at a very slow pace. And while I appreciate the view inside an Imperial work prison, That was not something I would have included. An how has the empire not connected that Cassian is in their prison? Them finding out just as he breaks out would be great tension and would have made a great season finale. But this series is moving way too slow Slower than Obi-wan Kenobi. I have found many episodes hard to get interested in. I loved the characters.

I think this and Obi-wan have forgotten the Lucas-ism - faster and more intense. That is something BOBF had, even if the story had cohesion issues.

Let’s hope season 2 is better.