Yeah, after thinking about it, I’m going to do a small gateweave on the planet/moon plate to mimic the movement I noticed in the 77 source that Williarob so kindly provided. That looks much better. I still need to balance the colors and brightness of each component. I want to get them aligned first.
And the rough assembly of the flyover is done.
password: OT flyover
I added some grain and gateweave to hide some of the defects and to test how that plugin works. The bad thing about the way I put this together is that the backgorund is absolutely still and the moving elements from the 77 sequence have a bit of gateweave. There are a number of flaws that I have yet to address and a few that I won’t be touching.
I think the only way we will see an official release of the OOT is if in the process of archiving or as part of rescanning and remastering the digital master to higher quality they need to turn to those original elements. Otherwise it will never happen. Though I could see another GOUT type release as a bonus content. Perhaps rescanning and half-assed cleanup of those 1985 interpositives. George authorized it once, so I think it is safe to say Lucasfilm and Disney could go that route without consulting him. I personally think it would have been awesome as part of he 40th to issue 3 disc versions of the OT (the original, the 97 SE, and the Blu-ray versions) to celebrate the history and the changes. But we have two more 40th’s coming up in 3 and 6 years. Who knows.
I’m on a quest for a better copy of the alternate end credits if you hadn’t guessed. At the moment I’ve used Puggo for timing and SSE for the text and recreated a version, but there is nothing like a good quality copy of the original.
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The 1977 bootleg features the mono soundtrack as Beru’s dialogue is different for the Lars dinner scene:
Which end credits does that copy have? Is there space between John Williams and the LSO credits or are the together. I’m guessing there is a few lines of space between them (like the GOUT). The only two copies of the alternate end credits (Puggo and the pre-ANH bootleg VHS) have the stereo mix of Beru.
I finally have the ships isolated - 415 frames. Still need to tweak the edges a bit, but that layer is largely done. The tweaks only affect where the Star Destroyer crosses each moon and where it moves in front of the Blockade Runner. Now I just have the laser layer to finish. Much easier since most of the frames are blank, but I have to make sure the laser bolts are free of stars and other artifacts and that I don’t miss any. I have the Engine Glow already done. I have a couple of tweaks left to the stars and planets (making sure the edges of the planets are right and the stars are the right intensity) and then I can make a rough cut.
Honestly it’s a little shocking that there aren’t a lot more 97 film prints to scan.
The ones with the money and skill to do that have put the OT as the first priority.
You are planning a much more extensive revision that I have in mind. But do you mind if I appropriate the Star Destroyer over Tokodana for my edit?
I would also like to add, that the TB broadcast for A New Hope is missing the end credits, which have been replaced with a laserdisc version of notably lower quality. The Reivax A New Hope was taken directly from the digital master, I believe, and features the highest quality of any of the 1997 films available. It has the original English crawl (the GKar are German), but have French subtitles during the crawl, and for Greedo’s and Jabba’s lines.
I don’t have the Reivax version and with it only being ANH, I’m not that interested. I’d prefer all three films have the same quality, even if it is slightly inferior. And there isn’t much to do about the subtitled scenes except take them from the TB version which has no subtitles. The better quality the rest of it is the more jarring switching sources would be. Still, I might have to get it just because I have become a bit obsessed with having every source I can find.
One thing to note about the TB us that it has been slightly sped up for its PAL conversion.
Yes, the original 24 fps is is preserved in the 25 fps PAL, same for GKAR. Same for any PAL laserdisc. PAL sources are actually the best for preserving and restoring the original 24 fps. It is a simple matter to slow them back down to the 23.976 fps video standard that is used for movies. The audio usually suffers a bit, but the picture benefits greatly.
One of the worst movies ever made? A bit of hyperbole. One of the worst successful blockbusters ever? sure.
True. But when you look at the viewing over time for the original release, TPM had sustained business. Fans kept going to see it. By the time you get to ROTS, the fans went, but didn’t keep going and the business quickly fell of. ROTS set records for initial viewing (opening night, opening weekend, world wide box office), but it could have been bigger if the fans had kept going. That is probably the biggest indicator that most people around the world consider the PT inferior to the OT. That’s why I’m never surprised when someone puts TPM over ROTS.
And as someone recently reminded us, when you compare any of the PT to the Ewok movies and the Holiday Special, they don’t stink very much at all. Only nostalgia keeps me watching the Holiday Special, but I’ve owned the Ewok movies on DVD for years and I have only watched half of the first one. If we are going to talk about crap Star Wars installments, that is really what we should be talking about. ATOC is so much better.
There were several broadcasts of the 97 SE in Europe. The GKAR and TB versions are out there and far superior to the LD version. GKAR tends to be sharper, but has some missing frames. TB tends to be more complete, but not quite as sharp. I am currently working on a remastering/reconstruction of the 1981 title/crawl/flyover for A New Hope in HD (the best sources are a 35 mm print with super crushed blacks and the various LD sources - none of which is equal to the 35 mm print scans of the rest of the film). My next project is to combine the GKAR and TB versions to maximize the picture quality and use the AC3 audio from the LD and the DTS tracks from the theatrical audio. At the moment I’m not sure what level of color correction I will attempt (faithful to the 97 SE choices or closer to the original theatrical colors). The main purpose is to use it to help guide my choices in color correcting and restoring the DVD/blu-ray version. GKAR and TB are out there, I think spleen might have them. Barring that, althor1138 just put up on spleen his preservation of the SE LD with the AC3 and DTS audio that I intend to use. It is surprisingly high quality considering the source, but it isn’t as good as GKAR or TB.
After having an “Easter marathon” my current ranking is
1./2. - Star Wars / The Empire Strikes Back
3. The Attack of the Clones
4. The Clone Wars
5. Return of the Jedi
6. The Force Awakens
7. The Phantom Menace
8. Rogue One
9. Caravan of Courage
10. Battle for Endor
11. The Star Wars Holiday Special
12. Revenge of the Sith
Ah… The two Ewok movies and THS added in. Well, I consider all those to fall below TFA in my ranking. I don’t get liking ATOC more the ROTJ, TPM, or ROTS. Care to explain why you rank it so high. Just curious.
TV’s Frink said:
Clone Wars was very good
Wait, the movie?
It was in theaters, even though it really was cobbled together from episodes they originally planned on airing.
I happen to enjoy Frink. He reminds me of this disagreeable co-worker I have.
Try as he might, Frink has yet to successfully make me question my enjoyment of the PT.
I’m not sure what gave you the impression that I’m trying to do so. It’s certainly your right. I think it’s crazy to give the PT a C and TFA a D but I’m not having trouble sleeping at night because you did.
It is the way you tend to disagree. And I’m very glad my opinion of TFA does not keep you up at night.
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There are many ongoing disagreements. Since I am one of the few who actually like the Prequels I get a lot of flack for it. But that is fine. I actually think all 9 theatrical Star Wars films are very good. The OT is outstanding, the PT is adequate, Clone Wars was very good, TFA is less adequate than the PT and Rogue One is nearly as outstanding as the OT. I watch a lot of movies and my opinions do not always fall in line with others. I’m used to it. I happen to enjoy Frink. He reminds me of this disagreeable co-worker I have.
I keep coming back to this topic because they are releasing new movies and because I’m interested in other opinions. I may not agree with them, but sometimes others can give you fresh insight and make you question if your previously held opinion is valid. Try as he might, Frink has yet to successfully make me question my enjoyment of the PT. Mainly because I see in the PT a different style of film and I can appreciate that style. It reminds me more of old hollywood where the OT reminds me of the 50’s science ficiton and samurai films. If I were a teacher grading these films, each of the OT gets an A+, Rogue One is right there with them, but I haven’t decided what kind of A (A+, A, A-). Clone Wars is a solid B, the PT are C and TFA is D (so much right but some key fails - a good effort).
And I have something to compare it to as well. I am first and foremost a Star Wars fan, but in the 80’s, when Star Wars was just 3 films and 4 books (no new movies, books, or even an RPG), I became a big Star Trek fan. They had new movies throughout the decade and TNG started, plus a series of books (that I think still puts the Star Wars franchise to shame for volume). I can honesly say I like all 6 Star Trek films and I get a lot of flack for that. 1 and 5 are not often fan favorites and get greatly derided for their quality. But I look at both of them and instead of seeing inferior quality, I see two movies that are far more like the original series than the other 4 movies. Roddenberry gave us his unvarnished vision of Star Trek 3 times. The Cage, The Motion Picture (the story was titled In Thy Image), and Encounter at Farpoint. All three tend to be slow paced and lacking in some of the action, but they make up for it in thought provoking story. And the original series often ventured into mythology for story ideas and Shatner followed the same pattern when he came up with the story for The Final Frontier. What Star Trek V is is the single movie that is closest to the original series in tone and story style. Shatner’s vision was perhaps out of touch with the 80’s, but that movie fits very well along side Who Mourns for Adonis and Plato’s Stepchildren. Because of that, I like it. I rank it as the worst of the films, but that does not mean I don’t like it.
Tying that in to this conversation, while I think TFA is the most trouble ridden theatrical story we have seen, I still like it. I just think it is very inferior to the others. I probably like it more than many movies that I think are better done, but, like the prequels, it is Star Wars - a universe I love - so I automatically like it far more than any movie of similar quality. In fact, I probably consider it at a similar level to Star Trek V: the Final Frontier. Both have story issues that bring me out of the story if I think about them. But there is still a lot to like. The PT, to relate it to Star Trek, are more like Star Trek: The Motion Picture - not quite up to the same standard because the story goal was different. Now, Star Trek has hundreds of episodes so the quality of production and writing is all over the place, but nothing Star Wars has never sunk to the low that is the TOS episodes Let That Be Your Last Battlefield, Spock’s Brain, or Turnabout Intruder. I hate Turnabout Intruder so much that I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen it whereas the rest I could not begin to tell you.
So ranking is relative to each individual. This is a forum dedicated to the original trilogy and preserving the original version of it. I really consider the OT to be comprised of 7 movies. The original, unnumbered Star Wars, Episode IV: A New Hope, Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, and the special editions of each (I really can’t consider the different editions as different films because the home video tweaks don’t change that much compared to how altered the original SE are compared to the OUT). Similarly just because there are two opening crawls, two end credits, and four audio mixes, because there are no story edits, Star Wars and Episode IV: A New Hope always rank the same and might as well be the same movie - except that adding Episode IV: A New Hope forever altered it. One stands alone as an industry changing film and one is part of a Saga. That’s why I waste time rendering two different versions and why I keep plugging away at remastering the 1981 crawl/flyover. I guess you could say they are like twins with different birthdays and fingerprints.
Okay, this post is now too long. I hope I haven’t bored you.
One final point. I clearly remember what my ranking of the films was back in the 80’s. It was Star Wars, Jedi, Empire. I always put Empire last in those days. I did not come to appreciate the genius of the story (between Lucas, Leigh Brackett, Kasdan, and Kushner, they created a masterpiece that I think is one of the best films ever made) until the 90’s. And to put the SE of the OT in the mix, all I can say is I think the changes to TESB made it better, ANH teeters at about the same (the changes to Mos Eisley bring it down, but are countered by Jabba and Biggs - something I’d always wanted to see in the movie), and ROTJ falls (it just gets worse with each new edit).
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Definitely going to have to give it a look, though I have never had any complaints about the original theatrical ROTJ version.
I know a collector who owns one of the few Technicolor prints in existence. He recently had it cleaned, and they did a test screening using the cleaner’s setup. He sent me some photos made with his iphone, which although they appear to have been white balanced look absolutely gorgeous:
His print is missing the correct end credits. They have been replaced with the ones from TESB. He would very much like to get his hands on the original end credits, even if they come from a faded Eastman print, so if anybody has one for sale, please contact me?
Gorgeous. Love those colors, especially the last two.
I don’t think it was the worst possible format that was the key, I think it was the least amount of effort. It was kind of like “look how the fans are trying to archive the LD and improve on it. Well, we’ve got the master tape so why don’t we just release that and we just transfered the 77 crawl so let’s tack that on there.” We got something better than we had, but not as good as we could have had if they had just taken the interpostives and done a new transfer to DVD. Imagine what a blu-ray from those 1985 interpositives would look? What we want vs. what we got. GL didn’t want to put any effort into it so he just used what they had lying around.
Lord Haseo said:
Everything comes across as a bit too much.
The only thing that I can think of is the space slug but aside from that the story telling, character portrayals, themes etc. were elevated as any continuation should.
No arguments here. Fact is, I never wanted a continuation or any character growth. As I sat in the theater every week in 1977, Star Wars was perfect. It had a beginning, a middle , and an end. I never once gave any thought to a continuation of the story. It only makes sense that the continuation (eventually) disappointed me. It’s the same reason I’ve never seen the sequels to ALIEN, Jaws, or Back To The Future. Those weren’t stories that needed to be continued. They were closed when I walked out of the theater.
Rogue One, on the other hand, also works as a stand-alone. It’s familiar, but it doesn’t change the 1977 characters. When I’m watching it, I imagine Luke and Co showing up in the Death Star and Yavin only a couple of weeks later. I didn’t expect that emotion, but it’s been a really nice surprise. For me, the two films fit together perfectly.
In the interest of “getting it”, the disappointment you feel with Rogue One is the same disappointment I’ve been feeling for 37 years.
For TESB, there were three years since the previous film in real time and in story time. All the characters had changed int the process. Yes, Han had lost that edge, but perhaps that is what spending three years with Luke and Leia will do. As for Vader, he was always higher ranking than any starship commander. He was under Tarkin and answered to the Emperor, but in TESB, he is hunting rebels and is in command of a starfleet. There is an admiral, Vader is over the admiral. Pretty much where we see him in the opening of ANH before he joins Tarkin on the Death Star. I have never seen anything about TESB that made it not fit with Star Wars. The dialog even indicates that Hoth is not the first place they went after Yavin IV, providing for a lot of untold adventures. I can see if you find the story less enthralling than ANH and I really like how you find Rogue One to be the closest to the original, but your stated reasons for not liking TESB are pretty weak.
Thank you. Overall very good. But it does leave some of the purple that plagues this transfer. A key piece that I have found to identify if the purple has been cleaned up is Luke’s chair (the one he is sitting in why he plays with the Skyhopper model). It should be gray (per the LD sources, SSE, and Mike Verta’s samples) and in the BR it is quite purple. Your correction doesn’t correct for that. While it might seem like a single issue, I have found that it is indicative of the larger color issue that needs to be fixed. I have taken a pause in my attempts to color correct the BR to work on the GOUT - under the assumption that it holds the best example of the colors throughout the films. My attempts to correct GOUT ANH to Mike Verta’s samples has led me to settings that when applied to ROTJ GOUT, are almost identical to the Grindhouse LLP of ROTJ that Harmy released. I am completing my last tweaks and then I’m going to give the 97 SE a go before I return to the BR. But all attempts to do a single pass correction keep getting us close to something close to the original. I think you may have the best one I have seen so far.
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Well, you have not provided enough information to duplicate your single pass correction. I’m not getting the same color results you are using Vegas. Some more detail would be helpful in giving you feedback on whether it solves some of the most egregious color problems that plague nearly every frame of the ANH BR.
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Which specific Sony Video Event FX did you use for these settings?
Loved the trailer, basically confirms that Luke is abandoning the Jedi for a balance.
Not sure how I feel about that. I actually really disliked how Legends started to take “balance” literally, and that the Jedi and Sith were merely philosophical differences, rather than how the Dark side was a tumour on the Force originally.
There’s no denying that the ‘Light’ side of the Force has issues as well, which is why it was only by recognizing the Dark Side that Luke was able to prevail in Jedi. The Jedi’s prohibition against some emotions and the dogma that they are impossible to overcome once indulged in was shown absolutely to be false. I for one appreciate the new direction this is taking.
But the Jedi Dogmatism was supposed to represent corruption in the Jedi (If we are to believe Lucas, who has had issues representing what he actually meant in the Prequels). The default state of the Jedi was supposed to be much more benevolent, but at some point they literally forgot their connection to the Force to use it as little more than a tool. Using the RotS novelization as a reference, Obi-Wan points out how the Jedi council in ages past didn’t bicker, but rather let the Force guide them to an answer, hinting that the Jedi lost their way.
In Jedi, that sequence was anything but Luke prevailing by channelling the darkness. If you look beyond Luke kicking Vader’s ass, the set up is that Luke lost control of himself because of Vader’s words getting to him; the music turns ominous, representing Luke going against what he stood for; and finally, when the fight ends, Luke is absolutely horrified at what he did. It wasn’t a triumph by finding “balance” between light and dark, it’s despair as our hero verges on becoming the monster he fought.
It could be like the Exorcist. Luke could be having a crisis of faith. He knows that the Dark Side is on the rise again so maybe he will come round to restoring the order with adjustment. Seeing the cultural vandalism in Rogue One it would feel like a victory for Palpatine if the Jedi were to blink out of existence.
What I’m taking from it is that Luke things the Jedi teachings need to end. He will be the last of the old order of Jedi. They may call the new order Jedi, but he intends them to be far different from Kenobi, Yoda, and the PT Jedi.
When topics like this come up, I like to go back to the beginning. Yes, the PT can color things, but when you look at some of the oldest materials (the earlier drafts of the screenplay, the novelizations, etc.), I have found that Lucas has been remarkably consistent on some points. We’ve always known that Vader was consumed by the dark side. How was left to the PT, but the how is immaterial to the outcome of the OT. Vader was redeemed. He came back. In that one act Vader/Anakin proves that Yoda was not telling Luke the whole truth. Yoda did say the dark side would forever dominate your destiny, and we don’t get to see what the redeemed Anakin might have become, but that he came back from the power that had consumed him really proves that the dark side is not what the Jedi think it is. They avoid it. They have no training in it. They really don’t know what it is except that when someone is consumed by it they become evil. They are closed to any exploration of it. When you have a natural force and you block all study of a part of it, that part with be very tempting to some. And rather than train Jedi to avoid temptation, they are trained to avoid anything that could lead to temptation. That was inherent to the advice Yoda gave in TESB and more explicitly detailed in the PT.
To me bringing balance to the force meant the destruction of all who had slanted teachings. Rather than the polar opposites, the force seeks those who delve into its mysteries to tread wisely but explore it fully. Not the light or dark, but the gray.
Lord Haseo said:
Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?
To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”
We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.
The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.
Ah, but is the energy created by life good or evil? I think not. It is neutral. It is what you do with it that is good or evil. So the force energy itself is not what corrupts. It is how you use it, which is why the Jedi can be corrupt users of the light side of the force. So Luke touching the dark side of the force is not Luke turning to evil. Yoda is quite correct that fear, anger, hate lead to the dark side, but we are presented with Jedi in the PT who are cut off from being complete beings. They are not to participate in the natural functions of life and this slants their perspective. They don’t want to train Anakin because he is too old and has fears. Rather than train him how to handle those fears they try to train him to have no fears. It didn’t work. Yoda’s training with Luke is very similar (and for OT purists, the only one that matters). But much of what is later expounded on in the PT has its origins in Yoda’s training of Luke. The dire warning of once you start down that path it will forever dominate your destiny is pretty much the basis for all the PT Jedi teachings. The Jedi were convinced that bringing balance to the force meant that the Jedi would prevail. From the outcome, that was not the case. The old ways - on both sides, needed to be cleansed and to do that the Jedi and Sith must be wiped out. I think the new Trilogy is going to further expound on that, much as Rebels has been. Lucas as much as admitted that when Luke brings Anakin back from the Dark Side in ROTJ and Anakin kills the Emperor, the he had indeed brought balance to the force. What we are left with at the end of ROTJ is no old style Jedi and no Sith. Only Luke. And we have already seen that Luke doesn’t follow the Jedi rules and is making his own way. I’m guessing that in TLJ we will find out that Luke attempted to raise up a new order of Jedi using the old ways and has found that the old Jedi ways do not work and in fact lead to the temptation to turn to the Dark Side. The old ways did not prepare Ben and left him susceptible to the Dark Side.
And whether Lucas intended it or not, the way he has written the Saga to this point very much has yin and yang at its heart. Anakin/Vader and Luke could not do what they did otherwise. If the Dark Side is truly all consuming then they could never have come back - Vader from being consumed and Luke from letting his anger fill him in that final duel. The inclusion of the Bogan in Rebels has been very interesting and enlightening.