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yotsuya

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2-Dec-2008
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16-Feb-2018
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Post
#1170421
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Collipso said:

chyron8472 said:

I saw a Youtube video that posited that Holdo calculated to hit the ships at the moment before the ship entered hyperspace, when the ship was travelling at relativistic speeds, and applies physics to it to explain why it makes sense (and yet sort of doesn’t).

Nerdist: The Physics Behind The Last Jedi’s Coolest Scene! (Because Science w/ Kyle Hill)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1M95njhovw

With regard to how it doesn’t makes sense, he says that if the math works out, her ship hitting the fleet at relativistic speeds should have atomized the entire fleet rather than merely breaking the ships in half.

I guess that the scene established that the GFFA doesn’t obey this specific law of physics, and at the same time it does. I mean, it obeys it, but the result is only a fraction of what the actual result IRL would be. I guess that also means that the power of the impact any Rebel cruiser could create on the Death Star wouldn’t be enough to destroy it?

Anyway, I remember leaving the theater and overhearing a considerable amount of people (even the people who I went to watch it with) asking “why didn’t she simply lightspeed herself into the FO before? Or why have they never done that before? It’s so useful and overpowered…” So even if I don’t have a problem with that I totally understand why some people would.

The way I understand hyperspace working is that it’s a dimension weakly coupled to normal space, so that ships traveling through hyperspace would still need to ‘avoid’ masses but a crash would primarily affect the object in hyperspace. Under this theory, any ship going to Hyperspace would damage that ship far more than the target.

But what if the hyperspace tracking technology used by the Supremacy means that the ship is always partially in Hyperspace? After all, some part of the ship would need to interact with this dimension at all times for it to work. Under this theory, the First Order is undone by its own technology and hubris rather than an overpowered exploit of the ill-defined rules of the universe.

This is my understanding as well.

Post
#1170005
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

I saw a Youtube video that posited that Holdo calculated to hit the ships at the moment before the ship entered hyperspace, when the ship was travelling at relativistic speeds, and applies physics to it to explain why it makes sense (and yet sort of doesn’t).

Nerdist: The Physics Behind The Last Jedi’s Coolest Scene! (Because Science w/ Kyle Hill)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1M95njhovw

With regard to how it doesn’t makes sense, he says that if the math works out, her ship hitting the fleet at relativistic speeds should have atomized the entire fleet rather than merely breaking the ships in half.

Hyperspace is another dimension. I think we can safely say that no living physicist can calculate what entry into another dimension would entail. Likely it wasn’t completely annihilated because the ship was only partly in this dimension so the power was reduced. Applying physics to science fiction and FTL is problematic.

Post
#1167698
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

A Star Wars movie should be judged on several levels. It is important to judge it with other Star Wars movies. But also other movies of various types. It is part of a series, so comparing it to other series would be interesting. How does it compare to the last Pirates movie, or Logan, or any other later series installment. It’s also worth comparing it to current movies or any slice of the movie industry you care to. Every comparison gives useful data. Critics loved it. It has been very popular in the box office. Some Star Wars fans hate it, done love it. That was very similar to the reaction to TESB in 1980, while today it is considered the best of the saga, a status it didn’t gain until well after ROTJ. So every comparison will tell you something about it as a movie. Only you can say if you liked it or not and your opinion might change based on IX, or something else.

Post
#1167247
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

I think I figured out a retcon to make sense of TESB and TFA. In universe when they refer to a system, they do not mean star system, but a group of worlds or moons as a political body. Otherwise the Falcon in TESB would have spent months or years traveling from Hoth to Bespin. but if Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin are all in one solar system but comprise 3 political bodies, then the Falcon can traverse that distance in days. The same with the people of Takodana seeing the blast that destroys the Hosnian system (which is portrayed as a planet with several moons). I still think Takodana should be further away than that and them seeing was a silly plot point.

How this quite relates to TFA, I’m not sure, but the discussion that was going on made me think about it.

Sounds plausible.

Goes to show that trying to fit Star Wars into a scifi box doesn’t work too well though. Travel times were one area where they really played fast and loose in the OT. After reading your post I had to google and there are similar thoughts to yours. The official explanation was too convoluted: a (slow) backup hyperdrive.

As the stories build on each other, consistency is developed and audience expectations go up. I wonder if as a function of that and audiences being more jaded from decades of movie wizardry, that some of these things become more problematic than they were 1977-1983. I think that is an issue when it comes to TLJ, where new things suddenly seem implausible, inconsistent or plotholey - even when they demonstrably are not.

The slowness of the bombers bugged me, feeling like there was a game mechanic to make them really slow to compensate for their offensive power, because otherwise they would be OP. No great thing and certainly not a reason to hate the movie, but it was there.

Bombers are supposed to be slow, they have a heavy cargo. They aren’t light, nimble fighters. I found them to be done the right way. Also very true to WWII bombers. WWII aircraft are the inspiration for the Star Wars dogfights so why it a bombing run.

Post
#1167245
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

Matt.F said:

Collipso said:

https://youtu.be/9eJXB0FQPD0 - good analysis on why Snoke in the ST doesn’t work like Palpatine worked in the OT.

Just what we all need, another no-name youtuber giving his reasons why nu star wars sux.

In all honesty the constant comparing is what’s killing any chance of enjoyment for these people. For goodness sake judge the new movies on their own merits without the constant, endless comparisons to a trilogy of films made 40 years ago.

If you want to compare The Last Jedi to other movies then judge it against its 2017 contemporaries… comparable films made with a high budget and targeted at family audiences; such classics as ‘Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales’, ‘Kong: Skull Island’, and ‘Justice League’. The bar is set so low and thank goodness that we are still getting films at the high quality level of The Last Jedi - stop whining, get some perspective, and appreciate how rare that is in the family film category.

Who cares if it’s a “no-name youtuber,” an article, a podcast or whatever. You don’t have to click but it can provide insight. The video was a response to those who compare TLJ to the OT; the youtuber explained it is a false comparison. However, I’m not quite sure what your objection is to comparing TLJ to the OT, since you seem focused on quality. Are you saying that TLJ cannot compare favorably in terms of quality to movies made 40 years ago? Must we really compare TLJ to some of the worst recent movies in order to argue it is good? The ultimate point of the youtube video was about storytelling and character development.

I think his point was that YouTube is full of people with opinions and it is rarely worth watching. There are a few gems, but there are a lot of duds and on this topic it is a pretty repetative line that TLJ is bad for this or that reason. After so many they get old, even if they are saying something slightly different.

Post
#1167241
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Hardcore Legend said:

TV’s Frink said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

TV’s Frink said:

I think he may have read the first sentence. Maybe two?

I didn’t read any of it, actually. I don’t read. I have news explained to me in short presentations so I don’t get bored.

This post is the first you’ve made on this topic that’s made any sense.

That’s a different way of looking at it.

Exactly what I thought of your first post about the article.

You clearly should re-read what I wrote and re-read the article in the first post.

From what he said, it does have meaning. For someone searching for someone to guide her, the vision showed she is her own guide, which is where her story was going. Ultimately she relies on herself and not Luke. She even faced the truth about her parents, with the revelation that they were nobodies coming from her, not Kylo. Though Kylo does take a dig by saying they were dead in the Jakku desert.

Post
#1167058
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I think I figured out a retcon to make sense of TESB and TFA. In universe when they refer to a system, they do not mean star system, but a group of worlds or moons as a political body. Otherwise the Falcon in TESB would have spent months or years traveling from Hoth to Bespin. but if Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin are all in one solar system but comprise 3 political bodies, then the Falcon can traverse that distance in days. The same with the people of Takodana seeing the blast that destroys the Hosnian system (which is portrayed as a planet with several moons). I still think Takodana should be further away than that and them seeing was a silly plot point.

How this quite relates to TFA, I’m not sure, but the discussion that was going on made me think about it.

Post
#1166668
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NeverarGreat said:

joefavs said:

DominicCobb said:

On the one hand, maybe it drains remote suns just like how it destroys remote planets. But in that case, why does it drain its own sun? On the other hand, maybe it does move around to new suns, but in that case why doesn’t it completely drain the first sun it orbits like it does the second (Hux’s speech is in daylight)? To me it doesn’t matter much either way.

I honestly never thought it was two different stars. I just figured the star that they drained to destroy the Hosnian system was large enough that they were able to get two charges out of it.

But Finn claims that the weapon draws power from the sun until it disappears, implying that once the draining starts, it will not stop until the star is destroyed. Poe repeats this during their attack.

Stop and think for a moment. Using up two stars does not mean it had to move. It is possible that they found the ideal system with multiple stars to use with this weapons. They probably destroyed the smallest star first and from a larger one they might get several charges out of it. There is a big difference between Sol and Sirius. A star that might give one charge could be the companion of a star that can give sixty. And I never got the impression that the first star was destroyed as Starkiller base never went dark which it would if the sun was sucked dry. Sometimes science can be the friend of wild SF storytelling.

Post
#1166257
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

In any case, I thought of something significant. While Leia demotes Poe for wasting their resources in destroying the dreadnought after they jump to hyperspace, in the end, his actions proved to be something that kept them from total destruction because that dreadnought’s weapons could probably have destroyed the fleet through their shields. So Poe saved the day at the beginning of the story and Rose’s sister did not die in vain and at the end of the day, Luke and Rey save the last survivors to fight another day. So the movie is not as dark as it could have been. But even so, Poe learns a valuable lesson about command and when to take risks and that it needs to be more calculated and less reckless.

Post
#1166256
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

No, the start of TFA is “once upon a time there was a young replubic that was faced with a dire enemy” During they story they destory the Republic - the equivalent in a fairy tale of destroying the new ruler’s castle and laveing the kingdom open to invasion by the bad guy. In TLJ, the last army of the Kingdom is tryng to get to safety and find allies and in they end they get away after a brave knight saves the day. It is the middle chapter. It is supposed to be dark.

Post
#1166172
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

By the way, we have no indication that the Starkiller base ever moves. Why would it travel through hyperspace if its beam can instead?

Here’s the other thing about the base, just because it got destroyed doesn’t mean that the First Order is done. In TLJ we see their fleet, why would any of those star destroyers be on the base? Of course they wouldn’t have been destroyed. And we know that Snoke isn’t there, so the information that he has his base of operations on a mega star destroyer isn’t a terrible surprise.

And the thing about the FO in general, is yeah, we don’t have any idea how they became so powerful - in the movies at least. I don’t see that as a problem, it’s not a plot hole, you might wish that they had explained it but it’s not something that’s unexplainable. And there is something of an explanation in the new canon content. As to whether the FO is a “fringe” group, well that depends on your definition of fringe. I don’t think there was any question in TFA that the FO was powerful and resourceful. TLJ doesn’t betray their galactic standing.

not disagreeing with your post, but i do think we know that SKB moves. it has to find new host stars…

If it can destroy planets through hyperspace, why can’t it eat stars through hyperspace?

This post has been edited.

Post
#1166089
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

The expectations thing is too often overstated. Of course there were expectations. Who here doesn’t have expectations about Star Wars? If someone didn’t like the movie, saying expectations were not met, well, that should go without saying. Same for those who like the movie, expectations were met. That doesn’t mean the expectations on either side were very specific.

Ah, but expectation are a big thing. It colors peoples views. When a favorite novel is made into a movie, many expect the story they saw in their heads and don’t like it when it comes out different. Expectations are huge. I guess I learned a long time ago to expectations to a minimum. I’ve read a lot of series and it is always best to take each new installment with an open mind and accept what the author has setup for the new story. That’s how I face Star Wars. Each new movie is a new story that will take us in new directions. Expecting something from it besides being true to the Star Wars universe (which to me is very tied to the hero’s journey, golden age science fiction, and samurai cinema) gives the story tellers no room to maneuver. I think that is why the Prequels were received so badly (no, they aren’t as good and ATOC had the lowest points of any Star Wars story, but they were the story GL wanted to tell). I think GL make a lot of mistakes on those, but I don’t think they are as bad as some make them out to be. The same way I found TFA very disappointing. It met the expectations of many, but I found it to be full of lazy storytelling and that he failed to give a solid conclusion to the story. In that way I find it to be the worst of the Star Wars movies. I cringe at C-3PO in the droid factory every time I see AOTC, but that pales in comparison to Finn and Han seeing the beam that destroys the Hosnian system.

Now, I am not impervious to expectations. I have a few for anything, but it is mostly that it stays within a bubble of what has come before in terms of feel and story telling. Star Trek has violated that over the last decade. And when I compare the complaints that Star Wars fans level at the PT or ST to what Star Trek fans are being asked to swallow, it is kind of funny. All the Star Wars movies look and feel like the same universe. The new Star Trek films didn’t even try and setup an alternate timeline and decided that because some effects called for a bigger ship that the so called JJ-prise should be the biggest Enterprise ever (bigger than the two ships Picard captains). And it gets worse. CBS decided that Star Trek Discovery is back to the prime timeline. Except they drastically changed the Klingons, the technology, the uniforms, went against several things that are said to have explicitly never happened, and just dropped the ball on any kind of research what-so-ever. Now, that would be fine for a reboot, but… Well, I’ll just say that in comparison, complains about TLJ are very nitpicking to me. My expectation for Star Trek is that they follow the established timeline and canon and that they keep to the mix of Roddenberry’s vision (a Utopian future where the human race had evolved and handles situations based on higher ideals) with the space action adventure that NBC wanted. Star Trek Discovery violates canon and ignores Roddenberry’s vision to so me that isn’t Star Trek. TLJ is Star Wars. At least to me. At least JJ and Rian are fans and are following canon and making something that looks and feels right, even if the story doesn’t go where you like.

I hope that makes clear where I’m coming from in this discussion.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1166073
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Matt.F said:

NeverarGreat said:

chyron8472 said:

Mrebo said:

tere are good explanations for most of them anyway.

There are explanations now that we’ve had ages to ponder them. Conversely, the novelization for TLJ isn’t even out yet.

The TFA novel straight up explains how the Starkiller beam could destroy a planet on the other side of the galaxy from where the base itself is located. It just depends on it you want to accept that explanation.

That is to say, you like the movie or you don’t, and that’s your choice. But holding ST and OT up to different yard sticks isn’t exactly fair.

We shouldn’t need novelizations to justify the events of a movie.

But as for different yardsticks, the Death Star was a moon sized space station with essentially a big version of a blaster that could blow up rocky planets. It required the resources of a galaxy-spanning empire to build.

Starkiller Base is a piece of construction many times larger than the Death Star, with a primary weapon requiring seemingly universe-breaking technology that has never been previously hinted at or explained, built by an organization that by all indications is a fraction the size of the Empire.

These are not two yardsticks.

Iteration is your answer.

The German Empire was defeated in WWI, the Nazi’s “rose from the ashes” and 20 years later the Third Reich invaded Poland and WWII began.

The engineering iteration upon the previous weapons, saw the war machine now employ cannon that could span the English channel, unmanned V2 bombs, U boats, and any number of other more advanced hardware (including ultimately nuclear weapons).

Pretty obvious that the First Order is based upon the hardware of the Empire (TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Stormtrooper armour, Starkiller Base, etc), and so iteration is your answer to why they are more advanced.

But that still doesn’t answer the question of why they were able to build a far more ambitious project with far less resources. If we saw that they used a robotic workforce and had a lot of automation for their fleet it would make sense, but we get no indication that it’s different from the Empire in this regard. Hux even says that it’s a machine ‘that you have built’. Yet another missed opportunity if you ask me.

Well, how did the Empire do it? They built two huge battlestations in secret. The First order built a superweapon on a small planet. Not quite the same level of construction required. the weapon is more powerful, but the setup is not larger. And we see this one fleet. How many fleets does Snoke have? How many fleets did the Empire have? We see and increase in the technology, but we don’t really see a larger force. The Empire had to dominate the galaxy and keep the rebels at bay. The First Order destroyed the Republic capital and fleet (one fleet in one system, but evidently all the Republic thought it needed) so they don’t need the huge resources the Empire had to have the fleet and ships we see. When you move beyond the movies, the Empire was massive and there is no indication the First Order is anywhere near that big.

Post
#1166061
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

chyron8472 said:

You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.

I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed.

I think this is inaccurate and an oversimplification. Time and time again we get these arguments, that us critics didn’t like TLJ, because of expectations and what not. It’s not about wanting hero Luke. It’s about what means are used to achieve what ends. The OT is in part about Luke’s growth as a character. In TLJ Luke has regressed to a deplorable state. Is this problematic in of itself? No, not at all. However, the means by which this was achieved, and to what ends, is what makes TLJ a bad Star Wars film in my view. The means, a sixty second flashback, is far too compressed IMO. It makes Luke’s transition from hero and Jedi to curmudgeon, who abandons his family, friends, and the GFAA at large, just not believable to me. This situation is compounded by the ends, which ultimately amount to a big reset in the Star Wars universe, where an even smaller rebel force has to fight another tyrannical regime, while another new hope has to somehow reinvigorate the Jedi.

So, for me personally deconstructing Luke Skywalker, while jarring, might have been worth the journey, if the franchise really went in an interesting new direction, whilst respecting the underlying themes of the overarching saga as set up by Lucas. However, since the ST for me personally amounts to little more than a reboot, whilst undoing almost everything the OT’s heroes achieved on a personal and macroscopic scale, I just disagree with the idea that the ST films tell their own stories and expand our understanding of the universe. It’s story consists of a mishmash of OT story threads, held together by a plot designed to defy expectations, and to avoid the OT’s resolutions. At the same time it provides very little understanding how and why the GFFA regressed back to the OT’s macrostate, because the film is too preoccupied with pulling the rug from under our feet at almost every turn, in my humble opinion of course.

The ST is like a rollercoaster. There’s fun and excitement to be found around every unexpected twist and turn, but ultimately the journey just leads back to the beginning of the ride, which makes it pretty pointless, if like me you wanted to go places.

Yes, that was oversimplified. But it is clear you had expectations and that you didn’t like where things went and that you didn’t really find the film engaging. But the thing I have problems with is because of that you have created a conspiracy theory that this was done deliberately to reboot the series and piss off long-time fans. There is not foundation or evidence for that. Rian Johnson made what he felt was the right middle chapter of the trilogy to grow the characters and set things up for the final episode. He wrote it before TFA came out and before fans spent two years building things up about things he didn’t consider important. And as proof that he did not do what you claim, I, a 1977 fan who saw the original film 10 times before July 1979 and has seen every film in the theaters and bought the home video versions, do find his story to be very well done and to fit perfectly with the OT. Right now I consider TLJ and Rogue One to be tied for fourth place of all time best Star Wars films. I loved it. So, far from disappointing me or pissing me off, he met my expectations, which was to get a good story that furthered the characters and universe. But, regardless of the other aspects of your feelings on TLJ, it is clear you had expectations that colored your interpretation and enjoyment of the film. People are entitled to have expectations and not enjoy films based on that (even a trailer can give people expectations), but I feel that you need to keep expectations to a minimum and just try to enjoy it for what it is. That was my philosophy for the prequels and now the sequels. I has been my philosophy on Star Trek and Doctor Who as well. So far Star Trek is the only one to truly disappoint me.

Post
#1165788
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

So in almost every scene of the movie I had a knife twisting in my side about how bad this was and didn’t make sense. Makes it really hard to appreciate the good aspects.

You are seeing the movie as awful because you expect to see it that way. You have preconceived ideas about how the Star Wars Universe is supposed to work, whether you decided them on your own or were given them by EU. You feel the movie twisting a knife when that knife belongs to you.

You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.

 
But it doesn’t make sense that we could have sent people to walk on the moon because planes don’t crash into the ground when they fly in straight lines, so the Apollo missions must have been faked since we know the Earth to be flat.

I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed. I was looking for a good story and I researched how likely Rian Johnson was to deliver that and was pleased with the potential and the final product met my expectations (being a good story). I watched Twelve O’Clock High and the space chase and the command structure wrangling and Poe’s lessons are so in keeping with that film. They lessons are very character specific and are quite different from that film, but you can see the same story telling at work. Finn starts out, once he wakes up, with a mission and Rose shows him that he should be on a different mission and he goes from someone traveling along with the resistance to being one of them. Rey is forced to face her parents. She was forced to face that they were never coming back in TFA, and in this one she is faced with them being just normal people, of no particular importance. Both revelations shake her to the core and her character has gone from looking for a place to belong to finding it (why else did she take the ancient Jedi texts). They stories played out in their own way and are nicely woven together to create a good final product.

TLJ has none of Abrams ridiculousness and his contrived story telling methods and sticks to traditional story telling, just like Lucas did in the OT. I felt that he understood the Hero’s Journey and Cambell’s work as well as the 30’s sci-fi serial and thee 50’s Samurai films that really gave Star Wars its flavor. It was a great middle chapter that gave purpose to Abrams film. Hopefully the ending that Rian was writing towards is something that Abrams can complete rather than doing his own thing. I see several paths to reach a conclusion, either not skipping time or skipping a few years. We shall see what IX brings. I almost wish they’d do what so many book series adaptions have done and split the next on into two films, but I think Rian had an ending in mind and I think I see part of what it is. I think he was going with Lucas’s balancing the force concept and this entire trilogy would be about finishing the prophesy.

And as for bringing this back to an Empire vs. Rebellion, isn’t that what the Thrawn trilogy did? True it was still the New Republic, but he brought the Empire back big time - bigger than the First Order (though we really don’t know how big it is, but the New Republic (whose capital and fleet were destroyed) in TFA is a lot smaller than the Legends New Republic. The Thrawn trilogy was something many considered as standing in the place of the ST or good material to adapt for the ST. But this is 30 years on instead of 10, and that is 30 years for a slice of the old Empire to grow and build a large military industrial complex that can put out huge ships and a lot of manpower.

I really don’t know what people were expecting from a sequel trilogy, but then again I don’t know what people were expecting from the prequel trilogy either. The story GL chose to tell wasn’t as iconic as the OT, which means it was never going to be as good, and then it was flawed with too much GL in the scripts and some strange directing choices that I can see and appreciate, but that don’t really forward the story. Abrams almost did better than GL, but Rian nailed what this trilogy needed and set a course forward. I have little confidence that Abrams will pull off a stirring finale to the saga on his own. But if he has script and editing help and is working off of what GL, Rian, or both, had in mind, it could be incredible. Or he could flub it like he did TFA.

Post
#1165213
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale. To me that means their home base is the location of one of the Empire’s manufacturing centers. Palpatine like to control everything so it is reasonable to assume that Snoke, given his very similar abilities and personality, could take over such a facility and keep it going. The ships are just an offshoot of the scale and designs of the old Empire. Snoke’s ship is huge, but it is no where near as large as the Death Star (and old Palpy had two of those built). And from the official descriptions of Snoke’s ship, it is not only a very large Star Destroyer, but a mobile space dock for building and repairing the smaller Star Destroyers. Compared to the two Death Stars and Starkiller base (which mechanically is less complex than either Death Star since it was built on an existing planetary body), Snoke’s ship is nothing.

Post
#1164480
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

ElectroDroid said:

My rating for TLJ has now fallen to a 3/5 to a 2.5/5.
The only thing I liked in this movie was Rey and Kylo Ren. That was literally it.
I sort of dislike Rian Johnson’s style. He just seems like some egoist that thinks he needed to ‘bend genres’ and ‘break tropes’ and ‘be shocking and Avant-garde’ to prove how Nolanesque he is or something. Not someone who’s suited to make a blockbuster movie.
Every bad decision in this film is being defended as if the filmmakers were shackled to the story and the thing just wrote itself (“that’s what’s realistic”). Sorry, but as someone who’s a film major, that’s not how the force works.
I’m glad some of you got joy out of this movie, but if Luke can turn his back on his sister and friends, I can turn my back on Star Wars. Solo is probably the last one I’ll see, as I’m actually looking forward to that one.

EDIT: Apologies for originally saying I hate Rian Johnson 😉. Hating a director you don’t know is silly. His filmmaking just rubbed me wrong, personally.

People can do inexplicable things after a tragedy. If that rubs you the wrong way that’s great. Do you have a nice honest opinion about why you don’t like it - fine by me. But the one thing I did doing preparation to see this movie is I found out that Rian Johnson had been inspired by three movies and I looked them up and found out what they’re about and watched two of them. I’m trying to watch the third one right now. And I wouldn’t call any of his storytelling avant-garde or new because none of that he was looking at less than 50 years old. One of them, Twelve O’clock High, was a big influence on George Lucas’s plans for the first Death Star Battle. Ryan Johnson Drew from it interesting command lessons and a few other things that went deeper into the story. Three Outlaw Samurai has a lot of similarities, though not in plot, to Hidden Fortress, the original plot inspiration for Star Wars.

I personally find Rian Johnson storytelling to be very inspired. I think it’s just the right amount of subtlety and action and makes a perfect complement to the previous movie. Definitely not as subtle as the prequels, but this movie was mostly action with some carefully told character development for each of the main characters. I’m not swear I say settled because on the surface it doesn’t seem like each of those things is terribly important, but when you look at the character development from the last movie to the end of this movie it is a huge jump in these characters development. I love it I love what they did with Luke. Luke was the hero in the original trilogy and this Trilogy he’s not. The success of the original trilogy lasted 10 20 years, we haven’t been given a time frame. And then things went to hell and Luke went from Legend to grumpy old Mentor, which is a classic Mythic trope. And Mark played the role perfectly. I rank this and Rogue one right after the original trilogy in quality. And I find it terribly I’m using that Frink and I agree on this movie because he’s so totally did not agree on The Force Awakens. So I challenge anyone who didn’t like this movie to tune into IX and see what they do before you throw the whole sequel trilogy out the window.

Post
#1164468
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

I never thought of the Death Star having hyperspace capability. As we try to rationalize travel times in a sciencey way that probably isn’t very realistic. But such is the burden of trying to make space fantasy = science. But let’s follow that thread. I think it very likely that in calculating the hyperspace jump, they didn’t account for the location of the orbit. Some slight additional travel time might be expected (in the movie, half an hour) to adjust, but that’s no big deal. Any jump with something the size of the Death Star would presumably expend a tremendous amount of energy. Just makes sense to finish the last 30 minutes of the journey in normal space.

Getting back to TLJ situation: the chase could go on for another day or longer. I don’t recall if the FO somehow knew exactly how much fuel they had. We know that the ships in question, in the movie, absolutely do have hyperspace capability. That should answer how the two situations are different.

In A New Hope the Falcon jump to hyperspace to escape the Death Star and go to Yavin 4. The Death Star is right behind them and the only way that could happen is if the Death Star has a hyperdrive. It’s there in the original story as it played in 1977. I think the reason is that Capital ships Star Destroyers and larger have a hard time making smaller jumps. And they’d have to time it just right so that the ship they’re chasing doesn’t see them and evade them, so it’s not really a valid flaw that the first order ships didn’t do a mini jump to get ahead of the resistance Cruiser.

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#1164247
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Think about the convieniece in the first movie. The driods just happen to get picked by Jawas that stop first at the Lars homestead. The one homestead with a connection to Kenobi. Any other would have done as far as R2 is concerned because Luke want part of his plan, but Luke is crutial to GL’s script. Star Wars has a lot of convenient plot points like that. Usually we don’t think about them.

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#1162812
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

And according to the dialog, Luke feels the rise of the dark side this time was his doing. He blames himself for Kylo Ren. In one respect he is right. The moment he discovered his nephew was strong in the force, he should have started training him. That Leia knows who he is indicates that he had some political role in the New Republic at one point. Or that he had taken over a chunk of the old Empire and his rule was known. How he influenced Ben Solo is not explained. But it is clear from the dialog that Luke waited to train Ben and by the time he started it was too late. Luke was left for dead and he headed out to find the something and ended up on Ahch-to. Luke clearly feels that the Jedi training techniques are flawed and don’t provide what some need to avoid the dark side. His first lesson to Rey is on balance and he freaks out when she doesn’t hesitate to explore the dark side. I think that fear he showed really is telling for how badly Ben’s fall hit him.

Post
#1162696
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Luke was a living legend, the man who destroyed the Death Star, redeemed Darth Vader, and witnessed the death of the Emperor, the very end of the empire. That would not be an easy role. But a necessary one to rebuild the Jedi. Palpatine had done a damn fine PR job of destroying the Jedi and undoing that would be necessary. Luke’s exploits would go a long way. So it makes perfect sense for the Galaxy to know about what went on in that tower on the second Death Star. So Luke becomes a legend. Eventually he takes on a dozen students only to have it all go to shit thanks to the darkness he didn’t see in his nephew until it was too late.

This post has been edited.

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#1162593
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

If Snoke turned Ben’s heart, that calls out for answers to why and how. I recall discussions in this forum (before TLJ) on how lacking in credibility it was that Luke could realistically have been convinced to turn to the dark side in the OT. That seems an entirely reasonable argument and I’m fairly convinced by it. There just wasn’t enough established in the movie to explain why Luke would turn.

I’ve made a similar argument, but it’s not that I don’t believe it’s possible that Luke could turn (I think they set it up quite well in ESB), I just think they dropped the ball when it came to exploring the temptation Luke should be facing throughout ROTJ.

In TLJ, we’re not given anything except Luke’s assurance that Ben was lost. We don’t know what Snoke could have possibly done to take Ben beyond the point of no return. I’m not ignoring Luke’s statement, I’m saying it doesn’t really explain anything.

Why should we have anymore than that? We don’t need to know anything more about that for the purposes of this story.

It does matter for the the credibility of this story and the characterizations. It’s strange to me that you would advocate for a movie showing as little as possible. Efficient storytelling has its virtues but if one is to accept that Snoke had an iron grip on Ben (and that Luke, of all people believed it) it calls out for more. If you can see how ROTJ dropped the ball, I don’t know how that isn’t apparent here.

I can accept that Luke saw something so horrible that raw defensive instincts kicked in. Others here have a harder time with that, but it makes sense to me. Note that is different than Luke concluding that Ben was already fallen.

So you refuse to accept a fact that the film presents then?

When it comes to a story, saying that one “refuses to accept a fact” is a strange statement. Stories are not facts that must be believed. A good story makes itself credible. If there are holes or poorly established elements, that’s the story’s problem. I’m not trying to challenge anyone’s enjoyment of the film, but there are gaps that don’t work for many of us.

This is not the story of how Ben was tempted to the dark side. He’s already Kylo Ren at the start of the film. I don’t know why you don’t see the distinction there. Yeah, we’re asked to take Snoke turning Ben to the dark side as a given. Why is that so hard to accept? I really don’t get why you won’t.

What I am addressing is Luke’s actions and thought processes. You’ve not seen me contest Ben’s turn to the dark side. That Ben was being tempted is established and accepted. Glad we cleared that up. An issue we have been discussing is whether Luke could have done something to save Ben. Specifically we are dealing with a scene that was shown from the past that is supposed to inform our understanding of both Luke and Ben. I have no trouble believing that after leaving Luke for dead Ben finally ran into the arms of Snoke. What is in dispute is that Luke concluded from Ben’s feelings alone that Ben was beyond his ability/desire to help him. And that is thin gruel in my view.

Luke had an instinctual reaction to seeing Ben had turned to the dark side. If Luke had managed to sneak back out of Ben’s room without Ben realizing that he had ignited his saber, I have no doubt Luke would have tried to work things up differently.

And I see no reason why Luke wouldn’t have done after-the-fact what you think Luke would have done absent the confrontation. As opposed to Luke concluding that night that Ben was already fallen and beyond his ability to help him, as was insisted upon in the movie.

As I’ve said, I don’t think the question in Luke’s mind is whether or not Ben is irredeemable, but whether Luke has the ability to redeem him.

As we wind down here, let me agree Luke’s ability (or at least belief in his ability) to save Ben/Kylo is the question.

What doesn’t make sense is that Luke would give up afterward. And this goes again to the idea that Ben is lost and yet having no idea why that is. It begs for an explanation of exactly what Snoke did and of what Ben did to become beyond hope.

No and no. Luke didn’t quite give up, from his perspective going to the island to die and let the Jedi Order die with him was his solution to the problem (however misguided, of course). And I don’t quite think that Luke thinks Ben is “beyond hope,” he just doesn’t think he can help him.

And I like “antihyperbole,” AKA understatement which is not a synonym of “hyperbole” although a similar concept.

The question is why Luke thinks he can’t help Ben.

Because of the way he failed him. I don’t think Ben is quite open to the kind of strategy Luke took with his father.

Back to the real question, again. We can only guess at what influence Luke might have had with Ben. In what way did Luke fail Ben? Simply that he didn’t see Snoke’s influence? Not saying that isn’t bad, but it’s more negligence than anything.

Um, he almost killed him? I don’t think Ben would be so willing to talk after that.

You’d be surprised how far an apology can go. I’m sure there’s even a Greeting Card line in the Star Wars universe: “Sorry for almost killing you in your sleep with a [blaster/lightsaber/thermal detonator].”

Ben/Kylo wanted nothing more than to kill Luke. Luke knew confronting him from that point on wasn’t going to be any sort of peaceful encounter. Luke had some soul searching to do and ultimately came to the conclusion that trying to confront Kylo again would only make matters worse. So he decided it was time for him, and the Jedi, to end.

Was this the right decision to make? No, of course not. But I totally see his reasoning. Luke has failed Ben and his best friends in the worst way possible. He put his trust in the force and it lead him to almost do an unspeakable thing. He thought he could bring back the glory of the Jedi Order but he only managed to bring about the same sort of tragedy that befell is merely a few decades ago. Of course Luke is going to have a crisis of faith in the force, the Jedi, and himself.

This argument works a whole lot better than saying Luke determined that what he sensed in Ben indicated Ben was already fallen and beyond Luke’s ability to save him. That narrative strikes me as untrue. That Luke had a crisis of faith and behaved cowardly is something I can agree with you on. Whether I like that idea or not, it works in this story. And when Luke tells Rey that Ben was already fallen, that is Luke’s cowardice and shame speaking - as opposed to a fact we the audience must accept.

I’m not sure if you’re misconstruing the argument, if you forgot how we got to this point, or if we genuinely have not been on the same page. The idea of whether or not Ben has already fallen is important in regards to Luke igniting the lightsaber, not whether Luke should give up on Ben after he burns his temple.

Luke says Snoke had already turned Ben’s heart and I still don’t see any reason to doubt that. (Unless we’re going back to how do you define “fallen”? in which case I don’t think being “fallen” or having your heart turned means you’re irredeemable, and I think Luke agrees.) Just because Luke says that doesn’t mean he believes Ben is incapable of being saved. Obviously I think in that brief moment where he ignites the lightsaber Luke does thinks that Ben is beyond hope, but of course that moment passes “like a fleeting shadow.”

As I said, I can understand Luke igniting his lightsaber on raw instinct when he senses super bad feelings in Ben. To my mind, being “fallen” requires something more. In ROTJ it appeared that killing Vader might do it for Luke. In the prequels, it was Anakin betraying Windu and giving himself over to the dark side for selfish reasons. In my mind, there should be something that seals the deal. If Luke only sensed really super dark feelings, that doesn’t seem like proof that he is already fallen.

Okay, so it really does go back to “what is your definition of fallen?” I definitely disagree with you there, I’ve never really thought that you needed commit an action that seals the deal in ‘turning your heart.’ Although I do think committing an action like the kind you mean can further your devotion to the dark and snuff out some of the light (like killing Han was supposed to do) or it can be the impetus for a turn to the dark. But I don’t think it’s necessary and I think it’s possible to give yourself to the dark side in spirit alone.

We have seen that Kylo’s commitment to the dark side appears a little shaky. And yet before committing a single act (that we know of), Luke was convinced Ben was - by any reasonable Jedi measure - gone, replaced by Dark Kylo Ren.

That’s the thing though, I think Obi-wan’s assessment that Anakin was replaced by Darth Vader was inaccurate, I don’t think that’s really how that works, and I think Luke agrees considering he thought there was still good in Vader. Luke only considered Ben too far gone in that brief instinctual moment where he ignited his lightsaber.

No, not just in that moment. In TLJ he believes that neither he it Rey can bring him back.

Post
#1162586
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I posted that long block of text because it covers the scenes that relate to the current discussions. In TFA we hear from his parents that Kylo was already going down the dark path when he stared training with Luke. He wanted to be on that path. That is a frequent theme with him. He wants to be dark. I think it is safe to say that Luke saw that and knew it was too late.

There is a lot in both movies that reinforces that Kylo is on the path he wants to be. He idolizes Vader. I think this emphasis plus what Luke said is enough to make it a fact that it was too late before Luke ever entered Ben’s hut.

Luke’s hubris and ultimate failure is in thinking he could overcome something like that. His success had gone to his head. For some reason he waited until Ben was old enough to run into problems to start his training. And then Kylo was not only fallen, but he took some of Luke’s other students and killed the rest. How could Luke fail worse than that. All of his students gone in one night. Luke failed in so many ways that don’t seem all that significant until you add them together.

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