The 2nd regrade looks a bit too bright and pale to my eyes, perhaps the brightness could be toned down just a bit.
Note that the black borders are brightened up too.
Some encoding issues, but nothing too major.
Same color schemes as the earlier DVD's. Those films weren't as popular as the earlier Renaissance titles, so Disney didn't pay too much attention to them (Luckily).
Well, we'll have to wait for the MGM BD, and see if they have the original mono.
I'm afraid I don't, but you could check the last line's background and compare it to mine.
If it sounds like burning wood, that's a new sound effect.
If it sounds more like a weakening explosion, it should be the original.
Unfortunately, Lil Brutto's LD audio didn't have the final line in it.
So, in the meantime, if anyone has an NTSC DVD that has that final line in the original mono with the original sound effect, let me know.
I don't think that this comparison captures the feel of it in motion.
The German BD is a lot dirtier, in a good way.
@ElectricTriangle,
Actually, the German BD looks more natural, and the Italian BD, to my eyes, looks over bright.
And yes, the German FAFDM, does use the MGM master, but it doesn't use the filtering that MGM used for the BD.
How are True Lies and T2 going?
@Lil Brutto,
You have a PM :)
I will definitely be able to do a V2 with it.
@suntech,
I'm afraid a PAL sourced audio will have to be re-encoded, and I would like to do as little encoding as possible, so an untouched, preferably lossless source is a better fit for that kind of work.
@TheHutt,
If a proper source would have been available to me, I would have certainly used it.
I could do a version 2.0, as the only thing that would have to be changed is that last line. The rest has already been properly fixed.
quin82 said:
I really love what you did to the mono mix so far :) Problem is, and it has nothing to do with your work, is the source audio itself. These milliseconds of silence, which are throughout the whole movie, really hurt the soundtrack, especially when music is playing. It really stutters and drags along most of the time.
But I think that's a small price to pay at the moment before a better, maybe even uncompressed source, can be used.
But thanks to your work, it is still a much, much better experience now :)
Yeah, I've noticed those too, but what can you do, I can only work with the material I have and I'm glad my work makes for a better, if still not the best experience.
MGM's record with original mixes hasn't been that great. It certainly won't be lossless.
The picture may fare better, but it's more likely that it comes from the same dated master used for the DVD.
Sure, I just need to upload it.
I'll PM you, and anyone else who would like to try it with the link.
Okay, so in my Leone film thread, it was noted that the mono mix for Duck, You Sucker/Once Upon a Time…The Revolution was mastered in lossless 2 channel DTS-HD MA, but that one channel had a short delay, and the ending was kept in Italian.
So, working with the original DTSHD-MA file, I used the left channel, as it was the more precise of the two, and filled in the 2 instances of Italian at the ending from the 5.1 AC3 HDTV file (downmixed, of course).
However, while the first line (Johnnieeee!!!) felt seamless, “What about me”'s background sound effect sounded slightly different than the Italian mix, which creates a slight dissonance, but only for about 2 seconds, as the rest is the original lossless audio.
However, unless someone has a better source for that last line, this will certainly do.
V1.5 update: Lil Brutto generously provided me with the lossless LD audio containing the missing lines, and I have updated the file accordingly. The LD audio has the original sound effects, but has a slight hiss, so the change in source is still noticeable, but a lot less jarring than V1.
I exported in 1 channel PCM WAV, and it synches perfectly with the Italian BD.
Well, it's not just the grain, obviously the transfer to film was made with color changes that would occur to the animation in mind.
I really don't mind if a straight, grainless CAPS transfer is made, provided a film print is used to color correct it.
Since LD's and VHS tapes are low res formats, the grain really isn't very noticeable, since it is mushed away because of the low resolution.
Grain became really noticeable only when BD's came along to reveal all that detail, so I don't think it should be re-inserted.
I do recall, when this project was just starting, that there was a lot of video noise. Perhaps that can be attributed to the capture card, and maybe that would be a way to improve the video, using less filtering later.
@mvd24
Check out AMPS, and you will see that there is a discussion regarding Cinderella and The Lion King.
Also, I extracted the WIP from the BD, and it is on AMPS as well.
Updated the list to show if the top choices are available anywhere.
I'd like to thank everyone who helped me correct the first list, and if I'm wrong about What is available or not, you are welcome to PM me.
TheHutt said:
Re: FAFDM:
The video is not zoomed in, it's just digitally processed (DNR+resharpen); the German disc uses the same MGM video master, but without digital processing.
The German BD uses a mixture of the MGM and Italian master and a 3rd unknown source. The Master itself isn't zoomed in, but the BD is. I saw captures showing that it has less information than the German BD, but that is another matter, it's still a bad disc.
TheHutt said:
Actually, I heard that's not valid for MGM's "Dollars 1+2" - there mono is real mono. However, lossy.
Oh? Well, even if that's true, the German BD's are still better.
And you're right about FAFDM being cut on the MGM, and pretty badly too, almost 50 seconds are gone.
Just in case, I'm listing releases to avoid too.
@Gogogadget
If you are referring to the Dollars trilogy, then all of MGM's BD's suffer from the same problems:
The video is DNR'd, EE'd, zoomed in, soft and overall shitty.
The mono soundtrack on each is a fold down from the 5.1 remix.
That's why I didn't even gloss over those, they are unacceptable, and as far as the film presentation goes, there are much better option that I have listed.
The one exception being the GBU 4K, but even that has only detail going for it, and it had to be regraded. The soundtrack's the same as the previous release, so again, no reason to actually depend on it.
@ TheHutt
Thanks, I updated the list to reflect that.
@ lightsabre
Fixed it :)
As you might have figured out, Sergio Leone’s films got the shaft not only when they were originally released, but also in our more enlightened days.
In this list, I will concentrate on the best available sources for the sound and video. This list will be updated when new sources are released.
The Dollars/ Man with no name Trilogy:
A Fistful of Dollars (1964):
Video: While the Italian restoration is commendable, the Germans took it one step forward using the AVC codec. However, the opening titles are in German.
Sound: The Italians included the original English mono in lossy AC3, while the Germans included it in lossless DTS.
Top choice: Fan cut using the opening titles from the MGM BD and the German video for the rest of the film. Such a cut is unavailable at the moment.
**Avoid: **The MGM BD. The video is DNR’d, EE’d, you name it.
For a Few Dollars More (1965):
Video: The Germans used more than one source to create an uncut version, the only one in existence on home video. But for some reason, they included a newly made opening card in German which replaced the original English one.
Sound: The Germans once more include the original English mono in lossless DTS.
Top choice: Fan cut which uses the opening card from the MGM BD and the German video for the rest of the film. It is available on a certain paradoxical forum.
Avoid: The MGM BD. The video is DNR’d, EE’d, you name it. The print used was also cut by 50 seconds.
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (1966):
Video: The Italian BD has better colors while the 4K regrade by kk650 has better detail.
Sound: None of the BD’s offer the original English mono at all, not even in lossy AC3. the only way to get the original English mono is from the LD synched by TheHutt.
Top choice: No top choice, the Italian BD/kk650’s regrade with the LD mono soundtrack are the top 2, and as far as I’m concerned, the only ways to watch the film at the moment. The regrade is available at a certain paradoxical forum.
Avoid: The first MGM BD. The video is DNR’d, EE’d, you name it. Also, no original mono.
The Once Upon a Time/“America” Trilogy:
Once Upon a Time in the West (1968):
Here is where things get slightly more tricky. Changes in this film were mostly made during the 1985 restoration due to ignorance by the restoration team. The “rising” scene was put back into the film, which removes the edge of the tavern scene, and the finale music was replaced with “Farewell to Cheyenne”. Since this was the most common version for the last 30 years, Paramount would have gotten quite a backlash for making changes to the film’s “original” structure. The German and French TV versions should be the real DC’s and have the original finale music intact.
Video: Paramount’s BD has no contestants like MGM had in the Dollars trilogy. It’s pretty good, but has the “rising” scene which should be cut. There is an Italian BD, but it might be a port.
Sound: While I commend Paramount for including the original mono soundtrack (Albeit in Lossy AC3), the music during the end credits is still wrong.
Top choice: None at the moment, but a fan cut is being worked on, which uses the Paramount BD as the main source for the video, and the LD as the main source for the audio.
Avoid: Nothing as yet.
Duck, You Sucker/Once Upon a Time in The Revolution/ A Fistful of Dynamite (1972):
Video: Italian BD is the best HD release at the moment, and I have heard no real complaints so far. However, it lacks English subtitles which the Spanish BD has. Both use the same master, but the Spanish BD uses the inferior MPEG2 codec and is at 24 FPS rather than 23.976
Sound: Italian BD includes the original English mono soundtrack in lossless DTS while the Spanish BD includes it in lossy AC3. The mono mix is presented in 2 channel dual mono on both releases. However, there is a lack of synchronization between the channels. The last line of the film is delivered in Italian for some reason, as well.
Top choice: A fan cut using the Italian video, fixing the DTS mono and including the subtitles from the Spanish BD. I fixed the English mono myself, but it is not perfect, as the final line has a slight hiss, as the source was different. However, anyone who has the Italian BD video can certainly use this.
Avoid: The Spanish BD. Worse encoding of the same master as the Italian and lossy audio.
Once Upon a Time in America (1984):
Video: The old (2011) Warner BD isn’t bad, but when compared to the Italian extended edition, it’s showing less detail and image information than the Italian BD. However, the Italian BD compresses more than 4 hours of film with 3 Lossless audio options (2 of them are the Italian dub) on one BD50. At 17 MBPS VC-1, it walks a fine line on the compression issue. The video is also yellow tinted and the saturation lowered by at least 50%. The extended Warner BD is from the same master as the Italian BD, so the tinting and saturation problems apply. However, it is slightly better encoded with the AVC codec at 15 MBPS. The original cut provided is the exact same Disc released in 2011.
Sound: All releases offer the English soundtrack in 5.1, and while I don’t have any issues with it, it would have been nice to have the original mono present. The LD could be used to preserve it.
Top choice: None at the moment. A regrade of the extended BD to match the colors of the first BD would be the best we will ever get in the foreseeable future. Such a regrade has been undertaken by kk650, and it is available through a certain paradoxical forum.
Avoid: The Italian BD. It’s has worse encoding than Warner, and it is the same master.
@Doctor M & Spaced Ranger
The wording is a bit sketchy, but it simply means that what you see on the LD is what you see on the DVD, the full roadshow version, and that it has been released outside the US under the "Walt Disney Classics" banner, since before that, a different video master was used, showing the orchestra preparing for the concert instead of seeing Deems Taylor.
However, the next paragraph mentions: " In the 2000 and 2010 releases, Deems Taylor's voice has been overdubbed throughout by Corey Burton because most of the audio tracks to Taylor's restored scenes have been lost"
So, I'm sorry, but it seems that the changes to the narration for the 2000 restoration were universal and final.