dahmage

I am not ready to rank it yet, but currently what i feel is not far off from what you posted up there ^^

but not 4th…

ChainsawAsh said:

Nope, he just does. He does say at one point that he “must get [his] proper arm” back, though.

yep. it is clearly back in TFA, and no there is no more explanation, but it is such a silly little thing that there really shouldn’t be time spent explaining it.

J0E said:

oojason said:

J0E said:

And why didn’t the one chick that Leia was having a lesbian relationship with tell Poe about their plan to evacuate everyone off of the ship? If they did that then Poe wouldn’t have sent Finn and fat asian chick to get captured and have their plan discovered.

‘and fat Asian chick’ has a name - if you can’t be bothered to learn what it is - then it could likely give the impression you didn’t think too much about your post there. Think twice about using that as a description for another person on this site too.

Same for the ‘one chick that Leia was having a lesbian relationship with’.

Okay? I was unaware that describing someone by their race, gender and body size is bad?

Ok cool. So you are terrible on purpose.

Handman said:

All I wanna know is where did Threepio’s red arm go?

rewatch TFA

Ryan said:

Collipso said:

Honestly I think Hamill puts it in a much better way than any of us could.

https://youtu.be/hpu8pD9C-1s

Did you read through the comments in that video? Seems like every comment they are hating what Disney has done to Star Wars and hate what they did with Luke Skywalker. Even read some comments saying they think the prequels are better than the new Star Wars Disney movies.

I really think in 5-10 years you will see the level of hate of these Disney Star Wars movies like what happened with the prequels.

are you suggesting we take youtube comments as representative of the world at large? LOL

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

You’re talking semantics. He instinctively thought about killing a sleeping boy, his nephew, who hasn’t yet committed any crimes for a split second. The Luke we knew didn’t show those instincts.

I suppose. I really don’t want to make this feel like i am arguing with you, because you don’t deserve that, but i feel like the things you took from this film are just so different than what i see.

I feel like the film already answered your point. Luke was dead tired of being viewed as the perfect legend. the movie was very explicit about that. and as many other people have shared already, the film really worked this angle in lots of ways. Just think about it, your view of who and what luke is, is exactly what drove him to exile himself in the film. It is a terrible burden to have people think that you are incapable of having human flaws. I LOVED that.

When luke finds rey and kylo touching hands, yell “No Touching!”

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how these powers were first introduced to the audience, starting in 1977.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

I’m pretty sure he reads her mind, doesn’t he? He even talks about dealing with Skywalker after they kill the rebels. Or are you talking about how he should have read her mind while she was still on the island?

Yes, exactly. Snoke wants to find and destroy Luke Skywalker. To do this he enacts an elaborate scheme to connect Rey and Kylo’s minds, to convince Rey that if she comes to Kylo, he will turn back to the light side. However, this is a ruse, because Snoke wants Rey to reveal Luke’s location. However, since he was able to allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, see and even touch each other (influence their visual cortex, and cerebrum), he should have been able to read Rey’s mind directly as he did in the throne room. He could thus have immediately discovered Luke’s location, while Rey was still on the island, and send Kylo and his troops to destroy both.

I don’t mean to seem like i am jumping in here, but i find myself wondering if they really can read each other’s minds when connected via the force. I don’t remember that ever happening? They saw each other’s 'future’when they touched hands… that is all i come up with.

Kylo could see who her parents are in her mind. He stated this in the film. He subsequently reveals the information in the throne room.

my memory isn’t perfect, but wasn’t this during the hand touching?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

also, wasn’t the point of connecting their minds, to trick Rey into coming to him? finding luke from Rey was just a part 2 of the plan, not the whole plan. Rey was someone to be dealt with on her own based on her force use in TFA, snoke knew this.

Yeah, but why trick Rey to come to him, if he can send an armada to come to them, and get both Rey and Luke?

this is again your thinking though. no evidence that he knows where they are!

DrDre said:

Novus_Opiate said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.

I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility.

I’m not saying it’s out of the realm of possibility. I’m saying it could have been developed better. Luke doesn’t just have the idea float around in his mind, he activates his lightsaber and contemplates killing a sleeping boy who hasn’t yet committed any crimes.

sorry, but “contemplates killing” is your own wording, and it is clear that you are over-inflating the problems in your descriptions of parts of the film because you didn’t like it. it wasn’t contemplation, it was an instinctual reaction that lasted a split second.

also, wasn’t the point of connecting their minds, to trick Rey into coming to him? finding luke from Rey was just a part 2 of the plan, not the whole plan. Rey was someone to be dealt with on her own based on her force use in TFA, snoke knew this.

DrDre said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

Dre, you’re trying to say that Snoke not being able to read Rey’s mind whilst she’s on Jedi Island is a plothole?!

You’re frustratingly inconsistent. One minute you’re arguing a case that Force users need to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune. The next you’re saying that Poe having his mind read during interrogation by Kylo isn’t canon, and only Force Users can read other Force Users minds - even when you’ve been shown to be wrong about that.

No, I’m very consistent. I’m stating:

1. In the OT the Force users originally (at least up till 1983) needed to be geographically near each other to telepathically commune.

2. There’s no evidence in the OT itself, that Force users can read non-Force users minds. This has to be inferred from EU material and movies released after the OT.

3. The Jedi mind probe is a retcon, that was subsequently prominently featured in TFA. I have no problem with this.

4. The ST changes the rules by allowing Force users to telepathically commune over much larger distances. I have no problem with this either.

5. That TLJ applies the ST rules inconsistently. This is a problem for me.

The truth is you’ve devised some personal ‘rule system’ for how force powers work, it ignores actual canon and makes sense to no one but yourself, but you cant seem to grasp that.

I don’t ignore canon, but I also don’t ignore how these powers were first introduced to the audience, starting in 1977.

The truth is we are shown new Force powers on pretty much a movie by movie basis. If you’re going to be adamant and say that only the Force powers you saw in ANH in 1977 are valid and all the rest are bogus then you’re going to be disappointed by every new Star Wars movie that comes out, because I guarantee the Force will evolve in every episode because audiences thrive on ‘the new’. The force powers shown in The Last Jedi don’t contradict those that have gone before, in fact the whole approach to the Force as a naturalistic elemental power rather than one wielded exclusively by those born to be Jedi (“the vanity of the Jedi to think it belonged to them”) is one of the great successes of The Last Jedi.

I’m fine with introducing new powers as long as these powers are used in a consistent manner in the same movie, and don’t cause inconsistencies in previously released films, that weren’t there before, or can be reasonably explained in-universe.

I suspect you will reply to this as you seem determined to have the last word, but for me you are the type of Star Wars fan that nitpicks the fantasy to death - and sadly it appears you have killed the enjoyment of it for yourself.

The Force powers introduced in the ST are fine by me, but it makes no sense for Snoke to be able to link the minds of Rey and Kylo, allow them to read each other’s minds, see each other and touch each other, and then claim Snoke can’t read Rey’s mind. This is nonsense.

If Snoke can do all these amazing things with the Force from a trillion miles away, including allowing Kylo to read Rey’s mind, and vice versa, he can read Rey’s mind himself, period. The fact that he doesn’t do this to find her and Luke’s location is inconsistent and contrived. It’s that simple. I will still enjoy the movie, as I have, but it’s a movie with flaws, and this is one of the big ones.

I’m pretty sure he reads her mind, doesn’t he? He even talks about dealing with Skywalker after they kill the rebels. Or are you talking about how he should have read her mind while she was still on the island?

Yes, exactly. Snoke wants to find and destroy Luke Skywalker. To do this he enacts an elaborate scheme to connect Rey and Kylo’s minds, to convince Rey that if she comes to Kylo, he will turn back to the light side. However, this is a ruse, because Snoke wants Rey to reveal Luke’s location. However, since he was able to allow Kylo and Rey to read each other’s minds, see and even touch each other (influence their visual cortex, and cerebrum), he should have been able to read Rey’s mind directly as he did in the throne room. He could thus have immediately discovered Luke’s location, while Rey was still on the island, and send Kylo and his troops to destroy both.

I don’t mean to seem like i am jumping in here, but i find myself wondering if they really can read each other’s minds when connected via the force. I don’t remember that ever happening? They saw each other’s 'future’when they touched hands… that is all i come up with.

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

Why would you want to cut the bit with Kylo’s mask?

Because pick a scene - for every scene, there’s someone who didn’t like it.

this sums up why super-fandom can get tiring.

Hal 9000 said:

Right as the movie is about to end, whatever ends up being the last shot, we hear a echoey ghostly voice of Luke saying, “It’s time for The Last Jedi… to end,” immediately prior to the iris to credits.

+1

or you perhaps it could be a repeating gag anytime the screen fades to black, or when the movie starts to feel loong… not sure how i feel about that myself…

MalàStrana said:

It’s one shot which is really an issue, the one where he walks to Ren. The close-ups are fine (I say “bad” for a SW standard !).

it is the walk or gait you are talking about, right? it stuck out to me too, but it very well could be because of his disfigurement. basically, i am not so quick to call it bad or a mistake. but it doesn’t seem natural, that is for sure.

vague lists can tie practically anything together. this is so 2015/2016…

TavorX said:

dahmage said:

Except that isn’t what happened…

Okay it’s fair to say I’m probably off since I’ve only seen it once; without using a snippy Luke quote from TLJ, what am I wrong about here?

You said

I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber.

That only happened in kylo Ren’s version of the story.

Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo brens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.

Except that isn’t what happened…

Novus_Opiate said:

Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.

I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:

Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn

Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.

Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.

Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.

The next is destroying the past and moving forward:

Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber

Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.

Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.

The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?

The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.

The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.

I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.

Let me know if I missed anything.

Pretty good I think, except you mean Rey and Luke, not kylo and Luke.

I did see your comment about the robes and looked for it when I was next in the theater. But I felt like there was another time that Luke wore those robes. Didn’t he have them on when he was training Rey? Or some other scene in between.

dahmage said:

Did anyone catch Joseph Gordon-Levitt in this? I didn’t, will look again tonight.

Ahh, my strong suspicion was correct! On the second viewing, I strongly suspected the this particular alien.

“Ayup, those are the shuttle parkers,” Slowen-Lo drawls as the police capture our heroes over a parking violation.

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/17/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-mark-hamill-second-role-easter-eggs/

DominicCobb said:

yhwx said:

Making the categories expandable and collapsable also kind of ruins using the “find” feature. You have to expand every category for it to be searchable by the browser. I’m not sure if that trade-off is worth it.

You fucked up by not reserving the second post in this thread and using that as a non-expandable duplicate for finding.

Lol

TV’s Frink said:

It breaks convention of replacing a word rather than just adding, but maybe that’s ok.

Maybe you could replace the word “The” if you are really worried about consistency.

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

I feel like the ST collectively (so far) feels jarring. TLJ is extremely well written and put together, and successfully executed its apparent goal of subverting what came before (including, no, especially) TFA. However, it does feel like a smartass taking a turn at telling the story (y’know, when people tell a story one sentence at a time).

I feel disappointed that I didn’t get the legendary Luke, and the movie actively wants me to feel that way, so I can’t fault it for that. I was someone who, when they announced they’d be doing 7, 8, and 9, ventured into the post-ROTJ EU to take in the broad strokes of the continuing adventures of the legendary Luke Skywalker. (This trailed off when they announced the EU was no longer canon at all, not that I was expecting them to be beholden to it. I figured they’d probably ignore the EU and contradict whatever they happen to contradict, leaving the EU to deal with it.) Luke is a different character here and the film deliberately thwarts everything that I went into this moving looking forward to. And… it did so in a series of 9 movies with only one left.

If your small town has an apple pie baking contest, and someone submits the best peach cobbler in the world… what do you do? I don’t know, this movie more than any previous one is hard to swallow, by design, which is good and bad which is good. I’ll have to chime in later after a week or more once I can sit with this.

Luke’s plot line is literally about how he was hyped up to be the Luke of legend and TFA and yet isn’t. Both Rey and Luke acknowledge this, but then Rey says they need a legend, to ignite that spark of hope.

So at the end, when Luke shows up on Crait, he’s not the Luke that failed that we saw on Ahch-to, he is the Luke of legend (with the sword of legend), and his standing up to the whole of the First Order and Kylo Ren and emerging without a scratch is what inspires hope of rebellion the galaxy over, as we see in the final scene.

Yes, yes and YES!

Luke was written and acted brilliantly. I think there is enough depth to make for quite a few viewings, pulling out more nuances each time. God damn…

And even after Luke “died”, the dice stayed real just long enough to connect kylo Ren and Rey one last time… snoke was long dead at this point. So was that just luck, or did Luke do that?

Second viewing. Love this film.