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ZigZig

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11-May-2017
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21-Apr-2018
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379

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Post
#1197414
Topic
Religion
Time

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

“I have trouble expressing what I’m thinking.”

^

see also:

chyron8472 said:

ZigZig said:

chyron8472 said:

Nuance is difficult for me in a text-only setting.

FTFY

Yes.

“Ce qui se conçoit bien s’énonce clairement” (Nicolas Boileau)

or, in English : “What is clearly thought out is clearly expressed”.

So maybe this whole idea of “I’m 100% sure that God exists but I cannot explain clearly why” is not as clearly thought as you say it is…

Post
#1197354
Topic
Religion
Time

CatBus said:

TV’s Frink said:

CatBus said:

TV’s Frink said:

CatBus said:

Chyron knows there’s a God. He’s 100% certain of this. I know there aren’t any gods. I’m 100% certain of this as well.

How can you possibly know that? The only thing I find more unlikely than someone knowing for certain God exists is someone knowing for certain that gods don’t exist.

Basically via Occam’s Razor, but not even that philosophical. I am comfortable making the following statement:

There is absolutely, positively, not a giant pink-and-mauve duck flying in space, hidden in the dark side of the moon, with the capacity not only to survive in space, but also to be undetectable to any attempt to observe it.

Now, this duck, by its very definition, cannot be proven not to exist, yet I am absolutely certain that it does not.

Gods are far more implausible than the duck, so by extension I am certain that they also do not exist.

You do realize that the nature of God would be such that the odds are we can’t even conceptualize it, right?

As with the duck. It’s more of a wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey astro-duck. And it ain’t there.

God :
God

Post
#1197024
Topic
Religion
Time

Dear Chyron8472,

I have trouble reconciling these two angles of your speech :

  1. Sometimes, you say that your opinion is not irrefutable :

chyron8472 said:

Okay. But to be clear, I do not say that I know better than you (at least no more than you might say you know better than me).
I do not say my position is superior.

chyron8472 said:

You said that I expect people to take my testimony as objective fact:

moviefreakedmind said:

I’d appreciate not being expected to think of your personal experiences as objective fact for everyone to take seriously.

I don’t expect that.


  1. But most of the time, you say that your opinion is irrefutable :

chyron8472 said:

That would be healthy if there was no God, but there is.

chyron8472 said:

Yes there is. I’ve had personal experiences that prove it beyond the shadow of the remotest possible doubt.

chyron8472 said:

There is evidence.

chyron8472 said:

God literally created time and space. There was no “beginning” before the beginning because before the beginning there was no time. As our universe expands, so does the boundaries of the space-time continuum. God created it. Therefore, he does not have to exist within it.

IMHO, talking about God and his faith requires enormous humility, and your way of asserting certain things is sorely lacking of humility. It deserves your message, and it seems to me that you do not understand that your “opponents” are not opposed to the idea of God, but to your way of imposing your point of view without nuances.

Post
#1189623
Topic
Religion
Time

Mrebo said:

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell

ZigZig said:

According to Jesus’ exact words, Gehenna is the place where soul and body are kept far from God and/or are litteraly DESTROYED (so it is the opposite of “Eternal torment”) by an unquenchable fire. So the fire is unextinguishable, OK. But that doesn’t mean that unsaved suffer eternally in this fire, just that they are destroyed in this fire.

So basically, Pope Francis said yesterday exactly what I wrote here a week ago.

I guess that makes me a SuperPope.

Post
#1189242
Topic
Religion
Time

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I have a question for Christian users here. What exactly do you find inspirational about Jesus Christ? I find that a lot of Christians see him as a role model as well as a god and I’m curious about specifics.

moviefreakedmind said:

Dek Rollins said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Dek Rollins said:

moviefreakedmind said:

The “fire insurance” is the only reason to dedicate your life to Christ. You may say there are little benefits, but if you weren’t going to roast in hell there’d be no reason to suffer through church, evangelizing, praying, and all that. Life’s too short.

I feel like this is kind of a glass half empty or half full thing. Your reasoning isn’t incorrect, but I feel it’s more important to focus on the eternal reward of faithfulness rather than the eternal punishment of unforgiven sin (or whatever Hell may be).

The reward isn’t as desirable as the punishment is horrifying.

Dek Rollins said:
they spend more time wacking off than they do imitating Christ’s love.

The reason they do that is because it’s a natural urge and desire of human beings (which God supposedly created). It’s especially a very natural part of growing up and developing. Encouraging people, and especially youth, to repress themselves and be ashamed of themselves for something that’s biologically ingrained into them is one of Christianity’s biggest faults today.

I mean, that wasn’t my point, but okay. I don’t disagree with you.

Oh, well that’s how I took it.

I was just referring to the fact that they have no desire to express the love of Christ to others. The “wack” was just an example that I chose based on its place in religious society.

most people don’t want to hear about the love of Christ. I certainly don’t.

These two things do not go together.

Just like religion and facts.

ZING!!!

I’m sure you’re feeling clever

I’m always clever. Feelings have nothing to do with it.

Wrong. I feel love for you because of your cleverness.

Post
#1187494
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:
the animosity in Northern Ireland definitely stems more from culture and identity than faith.

OK

chyron8472 said:

Protestant divisiveness over there is not actually about faith at all

Not OK

PS: thank you for making the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Okay, I get what you’re saying. For the record, I did find chyron’s assessment simplistic, I was just commenting on the tone of your response.

Well maybe he struck a nerve after all 😃

Post
#1187489
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:
the animosity in Northern Ireland definitely stems more from culture and identity than faith.

OK.

JEDIT: Note that if you take into account the historical beginning of the conflict (Irish Confederate Wars and Williamite War In the 17th century) - I guess that it is what chyron summarizes by " the whole Catholic vs. Protestant divisiveness over there", there was undoubtedly an important religious dimension.
If you speak only about “the Troubles” (after 1960), then OK, this is a segregation problem based on ethnical and sectarian criteria more than a question of faith.

chyron8472 said:

Protestant divisiveness over there is not actually about faith at all

Not OK

PS: thank you for making the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Post
#1187444
Topic
Religion
Time

chyron8472 said:

My parents went to Ireland recently, and they said they learned that the whole Catholic vs. Protestant divisiveness over there is not actually about faith at all, but is simply a culture war.

Not true. There is a cultural, social and historical dimension, sure. But this is also a question of faith. And the “war” is not only a culture one. There were lot of innocent deaths in both camps, killed by bombs, by the army or by the police. Just listen to U2’s “Sunday bloody sunday”.

chyron8472 said:

They also were told that basically anyone who isn’t Catholic is a “Protestant”, even if they are atheist or Muslim. Doctrinal disagreements have nothing to do with it.

Not true at all. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

chyron8472 said:

I feel that many people who proclaim themselves as Christians just take the label as though passed through the family.

By propagating here the mistakes your parents told you about Ireland, that’s exactly what you’re doing too: taking the label as though passed through the family.

Post
#1185985
Topic
Anyone else totally disregard Leia being Luke's sister?
Time

“Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back”
The way Lucas described “book three” back in Dec 1975 says otherwise:
“In the third book I want the story to be just about the soap opera of the Skywalker family, which ends with the destruction of the Empire.”

Post
#1185299
Topic
Anyone else totally disregard Leia being Luke's sister?
Time

“Return of the Jedi was originally going to be about as dark as The Empire Strikes Back”
The way Lucas described “book three” back in Dec 1975 says otherwise:
“In the third book I want the story to be just about the soap opera of the Skywalker family, which ends with the destruction of the Empire.”

Post
#1184871
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal.

Again, citation needed.

My citation is the goddamned bible. Jesus Christ talked about Hell more than anyone. In fact, it’s one of the main focuses of the gospels.

Matthew 13:49-50 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mark 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Also, here’s a verse for those that say Christ didn’t damn the religions that don’t revolve around him:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 13:49-50 - It is the explanation of a parable about the end of the world (and this parable existed before Christ). It doesn’t contain the words “Hell”, “Gehenna” or whatever, and it doesn’t imply that the wicked must suffer forever, just that they’ll be thrown into fire.

Matthew 25:41 : As I already said, Jesus talks about an “everlasting fire”, but never says that people will suffer forever into this fire (but will be punished by a simply immediate destruction). How and where did Jesus say that sinners will suffer forever in this fire ? And it is the end of a parable, so a symbolic story, not a “factual” text.

Matthew 25:46 : same as 25:41 : the fire is unextinguished, but the punishment is simply an immediate destruction. How and where did Jesus say that sinners will suffer forever in this fire ?

Mark 9:43 : same as Matthew 25:41 and 25:46 : the fire is unextinguished, but the punishment is simply an immediate destruction. How and where did Jesus say that sinners will suffer forever in this fire ?

Matthew 10:28 - “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”.

  • “Hell” is an English translation for “Gehenna” (the word “Hell” is never used by Jesus).
  • OK, so soul and body will be destroyed. Isn’t that the exact opposite of “everlasting suffering” ?

John 3:36 : Not a single word about Hell or suffering in this verse.

John 5:29 : Not a single word about Hell or suffering in this verse.

Mark 9:48 - same as Mark 9:43, Matthew 25:41 and 25:46 : the fire is unextinguished, but the punishment is simply an immediate destruction. How and where did Jesus say that sinners will suffer forever in this fire ?

John 14:6 : Not a single word about Hell or suffering in this verse.

On the opposite, there are also many quotations in the New Testament that suggest clearly that Hell does not exist :

John 3:36 - “[sinners] will not see [eternal] life.”. So no Eternal torment if no Eternal life…
Romans 6:7 - “he that is dead is freed from sin.” : idem.
Romans 6:23 - ‘the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.’ : idem.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - “who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might” : idem.

I won’t argue further, I explained my POV as clearly as I can.
I don’t want to debate about the existence of Hell, everyone believes what he wants, as long as he is sincere and respectful (as everybody is here).
I’m just saying that this belief is based on an interpretation of texts that allow several different understandings. It is an abuse, in my opinion, to present this belief as “facts” stated “exactly” or “literally” by Jesus.

Post
#1184766
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal.

Again, citation needed.

Post
#1184764
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.

it is a parable presented in a series of 5 parables : a deliberately short and fictional story that Jesus uses to illustrate a teaching.
Taking it in the first degree as a fact is deliberately ignoring the will of a symbolic story that Jesus clearly shows here.

Post
#1184756
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

those are his exact words.

moviefreakedmind said:

I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different

OK.

I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.

I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.

Post
#1184742
Topic
Religion
Time

one69chev said:

Whilst we are on the subject of hell, I believe it exists; how it functions, I could not say but I would guess it would somewhat resemble the local Polish Visa office on any given day at about 13:00.

lol

Or it would somewhat ressemble to the “Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread” a few weeks ago…

Post
#1184734
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.

I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.

Post
#1184723
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

He does refer to the unsaved being punished with eternal fire and torment; those are his exact words.

Exact words ? Citation needed.

According to Jesus’ exact words, Gehenna is the place where soul and body are kept far from God and/or are litteraly DESTROYED (so it is the opposite of “Eternal torment”) by an unquenchable fire. So the fire is unextinguishable, OK. But that doesn’t mean that unsaved suffer eternally in this fire, just that they are destroyed in this fire.

[Matthew 10:28]

…rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

[Matthew 5:29]

…it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna.

[Matthew 5:22]

…whoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna.

[Mark 9:43]

…It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire.

Some Christians think that Gehenna/Hell is a place of Eternal torment (https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/gehenna/, https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_168.cfm).

Some Christians think that it is just a place where unsaved remain separated from God for all of Eternity (https://www.gotquestions.org/Gehenna.html).

Some Christians think that Jesus never associated Gehenna with torment (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011252).

It is so much a question of socio-historical context, of translation, of Christian tendency, of literary interpretation, and of personal interpretation, that it seems to me difficult to just pretend that “Jesus said that”.
I respect your faith and your interpretation, but it is not correct to say that those are the exact words of Jesus.

Post
#1184698
Topic
Religion
Time

I’m not debating about what you believe or the way you understand some Biblical concepts. I’m just saying that (AFAIK) Jesus didn’t say a word about “Hell”, despite your previous post. He mentioned Gehenna, which can probably be understood in a different way than “hell as an eternal life of suffering”.

Post
#1184579
Topic
Religion
Time

chyron8472 said:

I did not answer because I was not here. But yes, I do believe that Hell exists. Simply put, believe so because the Bible says it does, in particular because testimony about Jesus Himself says that Jesus says it does.

Citation needed.
AFAIK, Jesus talks about “Gehenna” (which was a valley of torture near Jerusalem where “fire never ends” and where “bad souls die”), not about Hell as we understand this word today.

Post
#1182074
Topic
Religion
Time

As “tongues” is the French word for “flip flop sandals”, I’m a little bit confused with this religious concept.
May I say that Jesus was speaking in flip flops ?