Fang Zei

Okay, I got a question:

What exactly is the "resolution" of the final masters for AOTC and ROTS? I'm not talking about the HD "camera negatives" but the actual resolution of the final masters. I'm wondering because the Lowry guys were very specific back in 2004 about how they were working on the OT-SE at 1080p, which means the SE is now "stuck" at that resolution. TPM was shot on film just like the OT, but just about every shot went through the computer at what couldn't be more than 2K (The final master was on film anyway since DI was a brand new thing at the time; Lowry will likely restore it at 1080p for the "ultimate edition" just like they did for the '04 OT set). AOTC was shot on a bleeding edge camera with a vertical resolution of 1080 (I'm not sure if the horizontal was a full 1920 though). ROTS had a better camera, with full 1920 by 1080. A funny thing about the "one complete saga" idea is that we go from a scope lens in TPM, to spherical in AOTC and ROTS, only to go back to scope for the OT. I wish Lucas had shot AOTC and ROTS with scope lenses, if only to keep a visual continuity with the anamorphic lens distortion of TPM and the OT.

In case you're wondering, yes, some movie actually did just that (digital cinematography with a cinemascope lens). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CineAlta read the second paragraph of the "History and use in motion pictures" section.

I guess I'm specifically wondering what the highest resolutions that the PT was worked on were. We know that AOTC and ROTS were projected digitally at 2K, but does that mean the fx were actually done at that rez or was that simply a slight upscaling for the digital projection? My guess would be the latter. I saw ROTS in digital and it wasn't anything all that amazing in terms of resolution, even back in '05. So I'm guessing whenever Lucas finally finishes the 3D conversion of the films, TPM and the OT will simply be upscaled to 2K in projection just like AOTC and ROTS.

skyjedi2005 said:

Actually they are my opinions and those Fincher movies are all killing movies and not even close to star wars material.  You think you would actually look for people who work in that genre style.

But that's the thing.

Kershner and Marquand weren't exactly making space operas prior to Star Wars.

That's why the prequels should've been handled like Empire was: not written or directed by Lucas.

Here's a compromise I would've been willing to accept in an alternate universe:

The SE still happened in '97 (Kershner didn't care about the changes made to Empire and Marquand was dead, there's only so much I can complain about). GL got three directors - maybe even signed all three of them in advance - to direct the three prequels. I'm thinking people like Spielberg, Fincher and Johnston. Darabont could basically be the PT's Kasdan. The SE hits dvd in 2004 just like it did, and then maybe later on there's a PT+SE boxset of the complete I-VI saga. When the blu-ray debut finally happened (which still wouldn't be until after 2009, this is Star Wars we're talking about here!), Star Wars '77, Empire and Jedi would each get the Blade Runner treatment.

Well, in any event, the o-neg is lost to us as a means of restoring and remastering the OOT. I say just as well. Robert Harris has said that the o-negs aren't even neccessary to do a full-on restoration anyway. Besides, when I look at what happened with the Blade Runner set, it was a similar situation: they used the o-neg for the SE-equivalent "Final Cut" and used (I assume) interpositives for the U.S./international/director's cuts. If they did that for each of the OT films, I'd be more than happy

Sky, I think what he said was that the dvd version will be the only version there is out there. What he probably means is that content-wise that'll be the only version available, but obviously it'll be available on blu-ray further down the line since Lowry restored it at 1080p. They did the same thing for the Indy films. I even remember reading that Lowry did those at 4K! Someone please correct me if I heard wrong.

ChainsawAsh said:

My prediction is that this will be the only Blu-Ray release of the theatrical versions of The Motion Picture, Wrath of Khan and The Undiscovered Country and any future releases that improve on the quality issues raised with the transfers of I and VI will be the extended/director's cut versions instead of the theatricals.

and it's a lowdown dirty shame if true.

It's the whole reason I decided to bring it up in this thread. The Trek films are just as near and dear to my heart as the OT. Undiscovered Country was one of the first movies I saw in a theater, which was one big reason I was so excited for the blu-ray as it's the first release of that version of the movie on home video ever.

Remember how we all felt after we got confirmation the OUT dvd was gonna be just the laserdisc transfer? Yeah, that's about how I'm feeling right now.

But C3PX is right, it looks like - just as with dvd - we'll have to wait for the double dips of the studios' big catalogue titles on blu-ray.

(Since this is the most recent thread having to do with the GOUT) ....

Well, Paramount just released the original versions of the first six Star Trek films in a boxset on blu-ray and - with the exception of Wrath of Khan (which recieved an all out restoration and therefore had zero excuse not to look great) - it seems they seriously did a half-assed job. Undiscovered Country is the biggest offender, taken from a 1080i master.

Y'know, I've decided that with these big franchises the studios are going to keep going back to the well until it's bone dry because the vast majority of people picking up their releases are fans of the franchise first and movie fans second.

captainsolo said:

I don't believe for one second that Lucas would have been stupid enough to splice the 97 footage directly into the 77 original negative.

I know it sounds stupid, but that's actually what happened. With any movie that was shot on film, the original camera negative is the highest quality source that there is. That's why Lucas cut the alterations directly into the negative instead of making a copy first and cutting the changes into the copy.

It feels like it's been forever since we've heard anything about what's happening with the films. Lucas was quoted sometime last year as saying that the process for converting the movies into 3D is kinda expensive, something on the order of 10 million dollars per movie I think. Apparently he was considering cutting his losses and not going through with it. But we've gotten multiple reports from people who've seen demonstrations of converted scenes from A New Hope, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the release ends up happening after all.

Right now there are rumors from thedigitalbits.com that we could see some of the movies on blu-ray as early as next year. I somehow doubt that's going to happen. If what happened with dvd is any indication, Lucas will wait at least a couple more years until blu-ray is selling better than dvd. By that point the 3D conversion will probably be finished, so 2012 could see the 3D theatrical release and then the blu-ray (hopefully with remastered OOT) later on in the year.

There's two problems I have with what George is saying,

1) Change the movie all you want, but at least provide the older "drafts" in acceptable quality. Is there a reason they need to stay buried?

and

2) I'll grant him the "director's perrogative" argument when it comes to ANH, which he actually directed. But guess what? He didn't direct Empire and Jedi. He could at least be more accurate by saying "I wrote the story for the saga and executive produced episodes V and VI. The movies all now belong to me legally."

Yes, I know Kershner didn't have a problem with the changes made to Empire.

Yes, I realize there are unsubstantiated accounts of how Lucas directed some of Jedi.

....

By the way, I completely agree with Axia that Lucas will remaster the OOT eventually.

George doesn't own the rights to THX-1138, so I'm hoping beyond hope that Warner Brothers includes the original cut when they put it out on blu-ray next year. But somehow I get the feeling that's not gonna happen. Would love to be surprised though.

It's the same situation with American Graffiti. Universal owns the rights to that one, and they could easily branch both versions onto the same disc.

Of course, I'm saying all this under the assumption that George didn't cut some kind of a deal to get more control over those movies.

All I'm trying to say is that when the time comes for Lucas to finally remaster the OOT (and hopefully it'll eventually happen), I don't think he'll give us any other option than to buy it packaged as a second disc to the 20xx version on the first disc. I guess I'm just revising the question for myself, carry on.

I think I should clarify my previous post (sorry, I just had to get my umpteenth blu-ray idea out of my system):

I'm not big on the idea of the OOT being sold on its own as one release and the PT+SE being sold as another. I would rather see the initial blu-ray release have each of the six movies available individually with the specifications I listed above and the option to get all six together in a twelve-disc set. Later on, they can release a simplified set with only the final 2012 version of the saga, but I would want the movies to get the archival treatment first for those who really want them. I guess what I'm also trying to say is that Lucas wouldn't in a million years put out a remastered OOT-only set. This truly is a hypothetical situation. It would either be packaged with the revised version or not included at all.

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem, no.

Here's how I would prefer the hypothetical blu-ray release to go down though:

TPM:

-both the original 1999 cut and the final 20xx version branched onto the same disc. I don't really care if the '01 version isn't included, it should've been the finished version anyway.

AOTC:

-the same cut that's on the dvd and, if Lucas so desires, a finalized 20xx version branched onto the same disc (although I can't imagine what he'd want to do with it that he couldn't with 2002 technology).

ROTS:

-same situation as AOTC.

ANH:

-disc 1: the finalized 20xx version.

-disc 2: the '97 version, mastered from the '97 IP.

-disc 3: the '77 and '81 versions, mastered from the 77/81 IP's, seamlessly branched onto the same disc with all of the 35mm sound mixes.

ESB:

-discs 1 and 2: same as ANH

-disc 3: the 1980 version, mastered from the 1980 IP, with all 35mm sound mixes

ROTJ:

-discs 1 and 2: same as ANH and ESB

-disc 3: 1983 version, mastered from the 1983 IP, with all 35mm sound mixes

I wouldn't care about losing the '04 version of the OT since, as with TPM, the dvd should've been the finalized finished version anyway.

Lucas/SE fans are actually being huge hypocrites by ignorantly criticizing us OOT fans who complained about it being a laserdisc dump on dvd, saying things like "you'll never be happy with what Lucas gives you" and all the while demanding new revisions to the SE!

We could at least agree on what we'd want in a remastered OOT dvd. Meanwhile, they make threads like that one you linked to where everyone throws in their ridiculous ideas of what should be in the next/hopefullyfinal SE.

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT HE DOES WITH IT?!

Oh, and for the record, I post very occasionally over there as lawnmowerman603 and if you look through that thread you'll actually see that I'm clamoring for a remastered OOT on the next release.

C3PX said:

Maybe so, hell, I'd probably even prefer that over the original. But I'd still like to have it preserved where I can compare them side by side. If I can't have both, I'd rather have it the way it was originally experienced by the audience.

Back when the dvd came out, my roommate picked up the single-disc edition (I didn't know this until I noticed him watching it on his computer with headphones on one day). I remember him saying "the cgi isn't as jarring here as it is in Star Wars."

Warner is supposed to be putting THX-1138 on blu-ray next year according to the Home Theater Forum's recent chat with them (the transcript of which you can find right here).

Even though they could probably fit both versions on a single BD-50 (either version is less than 90 minutes long), I somehow doubt that would happen. Even though Lucas doesn't own any sort of rights to the movie, I could see him getting all up in arms about the version the studio took away from him and cut two minutes from getting released in any form whatsoever, even if the newer version is also included.

Universal could easily include both versions of Graffiti on an eventual blu-ray release. Again, who knows if they actually will.

I'm especially curious about what the deal is with that random, what the fuck inclusion of cgi in the Raiders hdtv broadcast. I would certainly hope they're not considering that a permanent revision, it really looked horrible in the clip I saw youtube. My biggest problem is that the older version looks objectively better to me.

Finally, there's Star Wars.

Y'know, it occured to me that you can't watch the original versions of the six films on any one format! On acceptable dvd quality, you can only watch AotC and RotS, as TPM and the OT are the altered versions. On laserdisc, you can only watch the OT and TPM, as AotC and RotS weren't released on that format. VHS is a funny story though. If Lucas hadn't made RotS dvd-only, you could actually sit down and watch the entire saga on pan-n'-scan vhs.

Lucas, for the blu-ray release of the saga, would do right by Star Wars fans to finally allow the option of watching all six movies in their original theatrical conforms on the best home video format available.

Again, who knows if that will actually happen ....

Yes, it is a tad ridiculous that we've now gotten this and yet still no remastered OOT. Lucas doesn't actually own the distribution rights to any of his movies, he just owns the rights to the movies themselves (and even that isn't true of THX and Graffiti). At digitalbits I've read a transcript of a chat with someone from Warner Home Video and they actually said THX might get a blu-ray release as early as this year. GL wouldn't have any say in that. Even if he owned the rights to the film itself, WB owns distribution.

It actually begs the question of why 20th Century Fox didn't/doesn't just take the best surviving OOT film elements from their own vaults and put out a decent set themselves. Does this all stem from GL's renegotiation of terms back in the mid-90's?

The funny thing is, about a year ago I was hanging out with a friend of mine who was reminiscing about growing up in The Philippines and watching stuff on betamax, including Howard the Duck. I wasn't sure if it'd been released on dvd here in the States yet, and I figured if it had I would've heard about it. We did a google search and saw it'd been released on region 2, but my friend must've forgotten about that part cuz I randomly got a text message a few weeks later from him saying "don't forget what I want for my birthday, dude: Howard the Duck!"

I doubt he would've heard about this region 1 release. The only movie news site he reads is comingsoon.net, not chud or aintitcool like me.

Looks like I know what I'm surprising him with.

I would be content if they at least put out the oldest and newest/final versions in equal home video quality.

That said, I think it would be really cool if they included all of the theatrically released versions. This would basically mean the 77/81, 97 and final versions for Star Wars; the 80, 97 and final versions for TESB; and the 83, 97 and final versions of ROTJ. They would have to do three-disc sets for each movie, since none of the three versions could really be branched with each other. They could get someone like RAH to restore the older versions and he could use the OUT and 97 IP's as a starting point.

For Star Wars '77, they could still presumably use that technicolor separation master we've heard so much about. That, along with the '77 IP, would provide a pretty good reference.

The '04 version is what I think will end up as the "lost version" most likely. If they do indeed put out the movies theatrically in 3D in the year 20xx, I think it'll probably have some additional (and probably minor) alterations from the '04 version. Hey, if people really end up wanting a preservation of the '04 version, they can come right to this very website for information!

As for the prequels, well, I can't imagine Lucas would alter AOTC and ROTS. Digital Yoda in TPM is a given, but that's about it. I would really hope that he includes the original version though, since it's one of the highest grossing theatrical releases of all time. I can't help but think GL made that longer dvd cut to distance himself in some way from the summer of '99 and all the negative reactions.

If they really wanted to go all out they could branch in the 35mm versions on the AOTC and ROTS discs, or even the AOTC IMAX edit, but I'd settle for the versions we have. Just give me the theatrical TPM and I'm happy.

Thanks for bringing attention to this, Mielr.

I filled it out and put the following in the "add your own comments" section. It's pretty much a copy-paste of my last post in the SE vs. theatrical section:

"The pattern we've (perhaps coincidentally) seen continued by the cgi The Clone Wars movie is one-new-star-wars-release-in-theaters-every-three-years. 2011 will be the next cycle, and the clone wars show is supposed to have run its course by then. Wouldn't it be a smart marketing move for Lucasfilm to put out the 3D conversion then? 2011 is the year before the 35th anniversary, kinda like how 1996 - the year before the 20th - was when they were originally planning on releasing the SE. They could use that to build up hype for the live-action show, which at this rate won't hit until 2012 at the earliest. They could put out the definitive blu-ray sets with Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and both versions (oldest and newest/final) of the Original Trilogy and The Phantom Menace - with all of the versions in 1080p - at some point prior to when the show debuts. Maybe they could throw in a preview for the show on the set or - better yet - wait until the show debuts and advertise the hell out of the blu-ray during commercial breaks."

Guys, seriously, the more of us who fill it out, the more LFL doesn't think it's just a bunch of random people who coicidentally all want the same thing.

R2-918 said:

There was speculation from the Digital Bits and other DVD news websites that there was going to be a Big 30th Anniversary 9 disc DVD box set released back in 07' but it was delayed due to poor sales of the 06' GOUT DVD sets.  Some of the speculation was that there was going to be more changes to the movies and there was going to be a lot of new Bonus material included in this 30th Anniversary set. I think we'll probably see this Mega DVD box set released before any of the films are released on Blu-ray but then again the Digital Bit's sources have informed them that some of the Star Wars movies (probably only Episodes 1,2 and 3) may get a Blu-ray release next year.

I'm betting LFL probably just said "hey, let's wait a few more years instead. We'll make more money in the long run if we wait until we put out the blu-ray."

The digital bits' sources are usually correct, and I somehow don't doubt we'd get the prequel bd's before the originals, I just don't know about it being as soon as next year. I keep wondering what's going on with the 3D theatrical re-release they keep talking about. One rumor said they're not quite at the point of no return in regards to spending money on the 3D conversion process and George isn't sure it's all worth while, so it might simply not end up happening. If that were the case, I'd consider a 2010 blu-ray release a possibility.

In any event, if the 3D conversion is a definite green light go, I would think we're not seeing the blu-ray until after that hits theaters. It would be a lot easier for LFL and Fox to go "Hey everyone, you've only been able to watch the (SE) OT in good-quality-for-dvd and, if you've really been lucky, hdtv broadcasts. Now we bring it to you like you can only truly experience in a movie theater!"

Okay, current prediction from me:

The pattern we've (perhaps coincidentally) seen continued by the cgi The Clone Wars movie is one-new-star-wars-release-in-theaters-every-three-years. 2011 will be the next cycle, and the clone wars show is supposed to have run its course by then. Wouldn't it be a smart marketing move for them to put out the 3D conversion then? 2011 is the year before the 35th anniversary, kinda like how 1996 - the year before the 20th - was when they were originally planning on releasing the SE. They could use that to build up hype for the live-action show, which at this rate won't hit until 2012 at the earliest. They could put out the definite blu-ray sets with AOTC, ROTS and both versions (oldest and newest/final) of the OT and TPM at some point prior to when the show debuts. Maybe they could throw in a preview for the show on the set or - better yet - wait until the show debuts and advertise the hell out of the blu-ray during commercial breaks.

Yeah, I wish there was some way we could see definitive numbers on how the GOUT's sales stack up against the 04 set's, though I really don't think there were that many people who didn't buy it because they knew it was non-anamorphic. Most people probably think all standard dvd's are 4:3 letterbox (how many times have we gone over to a friend's house and needed to set their dvd player to 16:9 because the picture was all stretched out?), so the people who didn't buy it either a) aren't star wars fans or b) already had the '04 set and don't care about the alterations. But there's obviously a large number of people who are neither because the GOUT still sold quite well. Even the knowledgeable on this very forum were saying they bought it hand over fist because it might be the best we ever get.

When the blu-ray comes out, there won't be some way of fooling everyone who doesn't know any better. There is only 16:9, so that's what the OOT will have to be if they include it. Of course, I'm sure they could pull something just as annoying and include a 16:9 480p mpeg-2 transfer in the corner of the same disc that has the nice 1080p SE, just so they wouldn't have to put the original version on its own disc.

Here's what I'm thinking: it only took six years for dvd to overtake vhs, which is why Lucas released the OT in '04 instead of waiting even longer like he'd originally planned. The live-action show is hitting circa 2012, and I'm betting Lucas will put out the blu-ray right before then. Live-action tv is the only medium Star Wars has never been told in, barring the holiday special. Call me naive, but I would think they'd want to make the blu-ray the definitive set at least so far as non-downloadable content goes (bd-live will allow them to put out more extras later). Once the show is on the air, I would think it'll be all about the show and - later on - the blu-ray and dvd season sets. Blu-ray will be big by 2012, but I'm thinking it's not going to be so big as dvd was in '03 (six years into its life). Maybe zombie's dire prediction of "star wars on blu-ray" being enough of a selling piont will come true, but people only had nine years with dvd before a new format came out. They're not going to be in a rush to buy Star Wars again unless it has what a lot of them want.

Right, it's just that I see it being infinitely more complicated to track down those scanned pieces of negative (if they even bothered to save the initial scan on a computer before they SE'inized it, and they probably didn't) and then cutting those back together with the unaltered pieces of the restored '97 negative. I think it would just be easier to take an interpositive and do whatever restoration necessary. Then they can make a 1080p transfer of that.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think LFL did with the '97 negative after it got scanned for Lowry's digital restoration in '04? I mean, I somehow doubt Lucas intends to have Lowry restore it all over again. He didn't want it to be done in anything higher than 1080p 'cause then it would look better than AOTC and ROTS. So is there any reason for them to hold on to the o-neg anymore?

Ridiculous, quite right, but apparently that's what happened. The original negative is the highest quality source for the movie, coming straight from the camera, so that's what Lucas wanted to use for his so called restoration. Instead of making a copy of the o-neg first and cutting all the alterations into it, he just cut them straight into the o-neg.

I've heard people say time and again on these boards that if they were in control of the situation they'd take the altered '97 negative and basically de-alter it. The rationale seems to be that the o-neg will always be the highest quality source, so we shouldn't even consider using another source like an IP or a print. Honestly, it makes no difference to me if an IP were to be used for our long-sought-after remastered OOT. I mean, the prints that you go to see in movie theaters are several generations removed from their o-negs, and a print is basically the highest quality you can actually watch a movie in, short of digital projection of course.

It reminded me of the Star Trek: The Motion Picture poster.

Yes, it would be great if they could somehow include all versions in a future blu-ray ala the Blade Runner set: '77, '81 (same as '77, just with "Episode IV A NEW HOPE at the beginning), '97, '04 and the inevitable (and hopefully final) version in 2012 or whenever we end up getting it.

But if they could at the very least throw in the original versions (remastered this time, argghhh!!!!) along with the final version, I'd be happy. That way we could have the oldest version and the newest, final version. They should at least make sure they do that for each movie: Star Wars (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1977 version), Empire (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1980 version) and Jedi (disc 1: final 20xx version, disc 2: 1983 version). If we could be given the choice of watching either the final revision of the OT-SE in 1080p or the OOT in 1080p, I think all the fans would be happy.