Guys, lets stop thinking that the OOT getting a decent release is beyond the realm of possibility.
I was just reading the blog on their website and apparently Jay has a new OOT petition in the works.
Bump-and-a-half here, but I was actually trying to find the thread started by the guys who are making this documentary and I couldn't seem to find it (the forum search seems to be broken so if anyone can find the thread and post the link to it I'd appreciate it).
They're still taking submissions until September 30th. Here's something that recently occured to me:
How many movies can you think of that have been significantly altered from their original form, eventually released on dvd in excellent quality (but still in that altered form), only to have the owner come out with a laserdisc-to-dvd port of the original version - only available packaged with the high-quality alteration - and say "Sorry, folks. That's the best you're ever gonna get."
Yea, I can't think of a single example outside of our coveted OT.
This is the real issue for me.
It's not that we got the OOT in 4:3 letterbox several months into fucking hi-def optical discs of movies being available on the market. There are still movies out there that are in the same condition (The Abyss, for example).
The real issue is that Lucas put out the high-quality alteration on dvd first and said the original version would never hit dvd, only to put out those very same original versions just two years later sourced from 1993 transfers and available only if you buy the high-quality alteration.
For dvd releases, it doesn't get much more shameless than that.
LFL basically said "People will give us their money because this is the original version of the most popular movie of all time and most of them won't even realize they're buying an inferior-quality product because they probably don't even know that 99.99999 percent of widescreen dvd's are enhanced for widescreen tv's because most of them probably don't have hdtv's yet and don't even know what anamorphic video is. They probably think they don't have any choice but to stretch out the 4:3 letterbox picture over that wider screen. Hey, this is a brilliant business strategy! Why put a single dime into restoring or even so much as remastering the OOT? This is Star Wars, they'll eat it up!"
Meanwhile, we get a Blade Runner set with all five versions on it plus deleted scenes.
"Is he fulfilling his destiny or has he destroyed his legacy?" is a line from the trailer for this doc. When you allow your franchise to gradually become nothing but a product, even to the extent where the film that started it all is reduced to being a curious piece of "nostalgia" (LFL's words, not mine), then that's certainly "destroying your legacy" in my opinion.
Baronlando said:I wonder if Warner Bros could release the original THX1138 even if they wanted to. Maybe Lucas gained control of it when they made the deal for the rerelease (by Lucasfilm paying the bills for an extensive restoration and new effects for a movie that has never been a big catalog title)
On side note, the making of documentary on the THX dvd has an anamorphic clip of Star Wars and it's the original version (Luke looking at the sunset, before the little mountain in front of the lower sun was digitally erased). I wonder what the source was, it looked pretty good.
Well, that's certainly what I fear, and with our luck it's probably the case. Although I should point out that on the dvd packaging there wasn't a single copyright notice for GL, Coppola or anything. It was all WB. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't sign some kind of deal saying "we'll never release the old version."
Oh, and I never knew until now just exactly what was done to that sunset shot for the SE (or the '04, whenever it was). I only remember someone commenting on the family guy star wars episode that "they used the '93 colors" for the sunset.
SilverWook said:TCM has shown THX a couple times, and it's the new version. Not a good sign.
Yeah, but don't they simulcast in HD now when they can (I don't get cable channels in HD, that's why I ask)? In that case, since there is an hd master of a version, they'd show that. Besides, they'd probably show the newer version anyway. Like the other week they showed the not-original version of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid and Robert Osborne pointed this out in his intro. Wish I'd known they were showing THX, would've loved to hear what he had to say (assuming it was during a timeslot where he does an intro). Actually I don't get TCM at all anymore as of two weeks ago. My cable service (Cox) scrolled a notice across the top of the screen for the last month or so leading up to it, saying we'd have to get a new cable box just to continue getting TCM at all, and I don't even like using one in the first place (QAM ftw).
Anyone can download the Holiday Special from google video. If the fan preservations of the OOT laserdiscs didn't count as piracy back before the GOUT was announced, neither does this.
regarding the OOT:
What gets me .... what really gets me is that the OOT on blu-ray has been built up so much by everyone that for LFL to not include it at this point would just be milking the cashcow. "Gasp, oh we have to buy this because this is all we'll ever get." Yeah, fell for that with the dvd back in '04, not falling for it this time.
When I look at all the bd releases I thought would never happen....
-The original versions of Star Trek: The Motion Picture and Star Trek VI
-Both versions each of Pitch Black and Chronicles of Riddick
-Close Encounters: all three versions
-Blade Runner: all five versions (for fuck's sake)
....that's when LFL holding out on the theatrical versions of all six films just seems beyond ridiculous. No one ever started a petition to get the original version of Star Trek VI on video at all and yet we got it anyway, in high-definition no less! Yes, I'm aware it's a sub-par 1080i upconversion job, but that's far, far more than the OOT can say for itself.
Warner Brothers should get the original version of THX-1138 out there, Universal should do the same for Graffiti and LFL, well, if they haven't gotten the message by this point they never will.
The Conan movies have actually been on my wishlist for a while also. Conan the Destroyer's dvd is just a port of the laserdisc, so it hasn't even been remastered yet. Maybe Universal will wait until Lionsgate puts out the new movie to release the old ones on blu-ray, but then again they might not want to wait that long.
Legend will surely get released on blu-ray with both versions at some point.
Sky, THX-1138 is on the table for a blu-ray release sometime in the next couple years. Someone from Warner said so in a chat that's transcribed at digitalbits:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/032409htfchat.html
I would love it if they included the original version (as far as I know it's up to them and not Lucas), but we'll just have to wait and see.
Something that's at the top of my list is Mallrats, hopefully with both versions. I got the tenth anniversary dvd back when it came out, but I didn't discover until months later that the dvd-18 had a scratch in it causing the movie to skip right around the time Brodie tells the story about his cousin on the airplane. I tried bringing it back to the local shop I'd gotten it from even though they had a two-week policy. They wouldn't let me exchange it. I was too lazy to ship it off to the studio for a replacement. The scratch was on the theatrical side and when Universal ports the hddvd over to blu-ray, it'll pretty much undoubtedly be the theatrical version they put out. So I could just hang on to my dvd for the extended cut on the other side and get the blu-ray to get a non-scratched copy of the theatrical.
For a slightly different reason, The Blues Brothers. My sister borrowed the 25th anniversary dvd from me but she keeps all her dvd's in a case and OF COURSE she jammed more than one dvd into several of the sleeves. Blues Brothers, a dvd-18 like mallrats, didn't get out unscathed.
I'm sure Universal will port Dune over to blu-ray at some point. Maybe they'll wait and see if Paramount actually greenlights the new Peter Berg project and then time the blu-ray to coincide with the theatrical release (although that's years away at the earliest, so maybe they'll just get it out to blu-ray sometime soon just like every other hddvd).
Lionsgate said way back in '06 that they were planning on bringing the Dune miniseries to blu-ray, but still no dice.
Oh, and The Abyss. We'll probably get this in the next year or so now that Cameron is finally finishing up Avatar. I never got the dvd after hearing it was non-anamorphic.
It should be "Han shot before Greedo shot before Han shot."
skyjedi2005 said:Why does he torment the fans who loved star wars so much that at first they were willing to forgive the prequels and the special editions, until he announced his intentions to bury the originals forever indirectly.
This is by far my biggest gripe with the whole GOUT issue. I would've preferred nothing over the middle finger he gave us.
LOL, I was just on my over here after reading the news at digitalbits.
Wouldn't the IP's be all we need to worry about? The solution would be even simpler than what zombie suggests. All they'd need to do is take the IP's, make sure they're usable (this is a where an actual restoration would be involved) and then scan them to make a new OOT transfer. The real trick would be finding said IP's. Lucasfilm's official response to us back in '06 was "existing prints are in bad condition." That could literally mean anything, but if well-preserved IP's are out there somewhere then the OOT could hypothetically be remastered.
The actual original camera negatives - the ones LFL had restored photochemically and then permanently altered for the 1997 SE - are what were scanned and digitally restored back in '04. The OOT hasn't been scanned at all since 1993, which is why that's what we got in '06: a laserdisc transfer.
Janskeet, I seriously doubt it was any less than 1080p. I just don't think it was any more than that either.
Does anyone know where I can get ahold of a theatrical TPM transfer with NTSC timing?
adywan said:Fang Zei said:Does anyone know where I can find a torrent of the theatrical TPM? I'm not talking about Ady's project, I just really want to get my hands on a copy that's better than the vhs but isn't the dvd cut, preferably one with NTSC speed and not the 4% PAL speedup.
It's kinda funny how AOTC and ROTS are the only ones officially available on dvd and in anamorphic video in their theatrical versions, and even then it's the DLP versions not the 35mm.
ROTS isn't available in its theatrical form. Even the DLP version had the wipe in it that is missing from the DVD
Heh, well now I finally have an answer to something I was wondering about myself. I saw ROTS in DLP twice but that was bookended by 35mm screenings which is why I could never quite remember.
Was the additional dialogue between Padme and Anakin right after his confession scene in the DLP of AOTC or is that also something that was added just for the dvd? I ask because I only saw AOTC in 35mm.
Does anyone know where I can find a torrent of the theatrical TPM? I'm not talking about Ady's project, I just really want to get my hands on a copy that's better than the vhs but isn't the dvd cut, preferably one with NTSC speed and not the 4% PAL speedup.
It's kinda funny how AOTC and ROTS are the only ones officially available on dvd and in anamorphic video in their theatrical versions, and even then it's the DLP versions not the 35mm.
This is an incredibly awesome find, dumb_kid!
They aren't the 35mm versions, but they are the versions that were shown digitally in auditoriums with DLP projectors. Granted, most people saw the 35mm versions when they went to see the movie in theaters. Only a hundred or so locations were showing AOTC in digital back in '02. The only place in the Commonwealth of Virginia showing it was actually the closest theater to where I live, but I didn't have a hankering to see Clones again until like a month after opening day - when I'd seen it in 35mm at the AMC Union Station in DC - and by that point the DLP screen had switched out AOTC for Scooby-Doo. So I never got to see it in digital. I'm 99% sure that the dvd version is 100% identical to the digital version though. The only thing I'm not sure about is that additional moment in the Lars homestead garage after Anakin's confession when Padme consoles him. I'm not sure if that wasn't added until the dvd. If someone can verify whether or not that was in the digital version, please say.
I saw ROTS on both film and digital. The wipe was definitely there in the film version, and obviously it's not there in the dvd. I'm not sure if it was there or not in the digital version but I think it was gone.
Apparently that wasn't the only difference. I remember reading people's claims that Vader's "NO!" scream and the subsequent wipe to the next scene was different, and that there was a difference in the background during Anakin and Obi-Wan's last verbal exchange on the lava flow. Not sure if any of those are true.
In any event, I'm pretty sure the Episode II and III dvd's are identical to the DLP versions.
True enough - and really I was being a bit hyperbolic - although I do think the absolute perfect treatment (at least so far as each OT film is concerned) is to have the final version on disc 1, the '97 version on disc 2 and the original version on disc 3 with branched '77/'81 opening crawls for ANH.
But on the fan/peer pressure note:
Ever since those fateful days in May of 2006 when Bill Hunt posted that incredibly long rant about how stupid it is that Lucas was actually claiming we'd never see the OOT in any better quality than the GOUT and Robert A. Harris basically offered to restore the damn things for free, I just haven't been able to shake the feeling that Lucas will get the message by the time he's prepping the blu-ray.
After all this grief we really shouldn't have to be putting together another petition of any kind, but we do. I think the closest we could possibly get to a petition that couldn't possibly be misconstrued is this:
"Dear GL, do whatever you want with your most recent (and hopefully final) revision of the original Star Wars trilogy (Star Wars: A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi). We would like you to please take Robert Harris up on his offer to restore the original versions to their former glory. Please tell him, once he is finished with the restoration, to convert them to SMPTE rec. 709 24fps 1080p. We would also like the original 35mm sound mixes preserved.
Since we assume you will be placing the revised version on the first disc of each blu-ray case, we would like the remastered original version on the second disc.
We can't imagine you would have anything more to revise in Episodes II and III, and they are (as of now) still the versions that appeared in digital projection during their original theatrical runs. Episode I has already been slightly re-edited with a couple scene extensions and there are rumors of still further revisions, specifically the replacement of the yoda puppet with the Episode II/III digital counterpart. If you could please include the original 1999 theatrical cut of the film via seamless branching, it would be very much appreciated by all of your completist fans.
Thank you for taking the time to read our petition.
signed,
Your Fans"
There, I'm spent.
The Blade Runner release alone should be shaming Lucas into preparing a monster-sized blu-ray set for each of the movies, but it probably isn't.
We're definitely not seeing another release for a while.
Those recent PT and OT boxes will likely be the last release until the blu-ray.
LFL has several seasons of The Clone Wars blu-rays to sell until then, not to mention the original Indy films which current rumors place at next year.
I really can't think of a better time to release the blu-rays of the six SW films than right before the live-action show goes on the air and I just can't shake the feeling that LFL will - AT THE VERY LEAST - throw in the fully remastered original version on the second disc of each OT film.
It's just been built up way too much for them to not do it.
Enough of this "you people will never be happy" talk that the gushers are so fond of.
If Lucas doesn't at least give us - the OOT fans - the opportunity to hand over our hard-earned cash for what we've been clamoring for this whole time then forget about the middle finger he gave us with the GOUT because this my friends would be the real insult.
This is slightly off topic, but ....
Wasn't there an HD broadcast of the theatrical cut of TPM way back when? 'Cuz if there was, that would mean there's an HD master still sitting on the shelves in the vault at LFL and they wouldn't have an excuse to not include it in the eventual blu-ray.
Do you guys think the '97 version should be included in the eventual blu-ray set? It would be nice to have a complete historical record of the theatrical releases of the movies. They'd have to make it at least three discs per film (one for the final version, one for the '97 and one for the unaltered), but since the transfers on each disc wouldn't take up all 50 gigs they could spread alot of extras over the extra space.
It's all especially ironic when you consider that Lucas is on some film preservation board with Scorcese et al.
In regards to whether LFL is sitting on a nice OOT transfer, well, I suppose that's possible but the actual facts we've gleaned make more sense. Jim Ward noticed all the demand for the OOT on dvd but Lucas only said "fine, just so long as I don't pay a dime to remaster it." Hence they ported the laserdisc master to dvd.
We'll see the OOT restored someday, folks. Hell, if Robert A Harris owns prints of it and even offered to restore it for free, then that rainy day scenario might actually be a reality. Oh, and here's a thought. What if (bear with me here) - what if LFL does decide to hire someone like Harris to restore the OOT for the blu-ray set? They could use that person's attention to detail at restoring - while not altering a thing - as a huge selling point to people like us!
I'll say this, it's not so much a matter of forgiving GL for "not doing it before," it's that he deliberately insulted so many fans by pretending to do it. When I step back and look at the big picture (wish I could, but we're stuck with the GOUT - zing!), this wouldn't have happened if this were any other big successful studio picture, but it's not. It's one of the mere handful of films owned by Lucas, several of which happened to become some of the biggest box office hits of all time (Star Wars and Indiana Jones). At the end of the day, to hold onto his independence, maybe going back to the well an aggravating number of times really is necessary.
But that's just me giving Lucas the benefit of the doubt.
In any event, I didn't have a problem (nothing to forgive) until he fake gave us what we wanted by dumping laserdisc transfers to dvd, something fans had been doing for years.
Yeah, except it's not like they're ever gonna redo all that cg in a higher resolution. I doubt they were even considering "hey, should we save the camera negatives for when we can do the effects at an even higher rez than 2K someday?" The processed version of the shots were considered the final version. Lowry will simply remaster TPM someday just as they did the OT. They didn't have the '97 effects shots saved on a computer in '04, Lowry had to restore them just like every other shot on the OT's negatives. If you look closely there's even a little framedrift still there. It will likely be the same situation for TPM. They'll restore it in 1080p to remove dirt, dust and scratches, but there might still be some framedrift and other anomolies. Just as with the OT, they'll never be able to erase some telltale signs that it was shot on film. Even though AOTC and ROTS are forever stuck at 1080p, Lucas probably cares more about the fact that he was able to completely cut film out of the equation.
It's indicative of Lucas' fascination with digital technology.
After he shot AOTC in HD and knew he was going to be doing the same with Ep3, he probably thought "well, these two movies are always going to be stuck at that resolution, so I certainly don't want to remaster the SE at any higher a rez. At least I can remove all the dust, dirt and scratches."
Heh, the last two posts kinda highlight something interesting to me:
How many times have we heard people say things like "Star Wars was great before it started sucking." It would be pretty easy to forgive the SE if Lucas remastered the OOT because there honestly wouldn't be anything left to complain about on that front. We would actually have both versions in the same presentation quality (1080p).
But there's always going to be that dichotomy between the OT and the PT. For one thing, Star Wars '77 was the last film George Lucas directed for two decades and he got different directors for Empire and Jedi. Some have argued that the man who stepped back into the director's chair for Episode I was a much different person from who we knew and loved. Visual Effects in the OT served the story, and even in the SE not every single shot had some sort of visual effect in it - far from it, in fact. The one big thing to take the edge off of "what might've been" for me is remembering that at least the OT was made first. The prequels - to me, anyway - will always be the prequels.
There are at least two things I want to see done with the blu-ray:
1) Lucas should make up his mind about how he wants his movies to be. In other words, take a page from Blade Runner and make this version the final version.
2) Remaster the OOT in 1080p. They did it for the SE, they can do it for the OOT.
and yes, of course he would be forgiven. I never even had a problem until he gave us the finger with the GOUT.