Darth Wagner

This is absolutely great work, Adywan! But it also brought some logical thoughts to me with it. I think screenplay should be overdubbed from

"Our first catch of the day"  to

"Our first target today".

It came immidiately to my mind as I saw SD shooting at Rebel Transport. Makes one wonder why are they shooting at them if they want to "catch" them. You might overdub it yourself too , cause you're english. :-)

720p looks really great. Cheers and a big thanx!

ChainsawAsh said:

Off topic, I was just watching Episode III since I hadn't watched it since opening day at midnight.  I forgot what a steaming pile of shit it is.  Every aspect of it feels like it was made by someone who hadn't even gone to film school, much less someone who's made several movies in his life.  Incredibly choppy editing, no flow between scenes, horrid dialogue, childish attempts at humor ... what the hell happened from 1977 to 2005?

Rant over.  Back on topic.  Sorry for the distraction.

Maybe you are like 28 years older. And you're right about this beeing off topic.

@ Yeyl :

Everybody has some thing he liked in the GLs' Version(s) which is not going to appear in Adywans'. BUT the ammount of things we all like to see in his edits is so much bigger then the ammount of things we ev. loose. It's incomperable.

It's rather easy not to get overly emotional about it trough a simple thaught that it's his work. Throwing suggestions is welcome and practical. Judging his decisions and his character is simply out of place and is not going to achieve anything.

Still, one can himself put things back. It's not forbidden. And it's much more creative then making a big discussion about editor's reasoning. And than you have a perfect SW movie only for your joy.

Cheers

BarBar Jinkx said:

Savage said:

Well, I prefer the score as is in the movie for that sequence.  The concert arrangement has a very full, ominous sound, while the originally scored piece seems somewhat "smaller" to me....

 

I have to agree it felt flat to me and without the same emotional impact as the final release version

 

Thank you for your comments; in the 80's cinemas it made sense to hear it that way because it still was a typical way to score a big movie (orchestral sound), music was loud in the stereo dolby surround mix and we didn't have subwoofers then. In SE DVD that same ominous sound sounded suddenly thin and oldfashioned to my ears thus the whole music score which drove the original movie loud was degraded to "one of the things you hear" in 5.1 with now much important subwoofered foley track (sounds). Interestingly, music score was not subwoofered because somebody obviously didn't care. Executor reveal in 5.1 is a best example of that . That's why I believe that this deliberate version might do justice because it's less strings but more brass driven, which also better represents empire and one can put a lots of sub-engine-noise below without disturbing the sound.

Well , that's my opinion, but let's see what others and especially Adywan think about it - I suggest it  to be tested.

http://rapidshare.com/files/201159867/Executor_reveal_original_composition.mp3

HotRod said:

Ooooh!!  I like that arrangement!! Very subtle and not too in your face different!

And does solve the problem of Adymans music score becoming an 'edit - copy - paste' like AOTC's bloody movie soundtrack. What a shambles that was!!

Yes , HotRod, you're right. I hope others would write comments on that arrangement too, though. I know , it's not the picture it's the sound but anyway.... not less important

@ Imperial Fighter

Thank you for analysis of the Hoth battle (mostly) continuity problems. You really made the difference! Great stuff!

@ Vaderios

Thank you for your talent, creativity and work! It's a pleasure to look at it all the time! However, I disagree with a fully sunny weather with Alps in the Hoth battle. It looks like war came to Switzerland, very weird :-)

@ Adywan and all

I just discovered something you probably already concidered. If not: the original music for "Executor" reveal. I discovered a version of Imperial March which was composed only for that reveal originally, but finally replaced with the concert-version of that theme in the finished movie.

As you already used that same concert-version for your Death Star reveal in ANH:R (which was a spectacular take on that sequence) might it be possible to use the originally purposly composed version for Executor reveal in ESB:R?

IMHO it would make sense because it sounds like a very similar but stronger variation with lots of background horns supporting rythmically, therefore less "oldfashioned" then used beginning of a concert version.

Also there is less "SE-need-to-be-heard-but-is-not-because-of-the-subwoofer-engine-rumble" Contrabaass & Vcello-harmonical-fundament of the concert-version. In this deliberate version you can use as much engine-rumble it needs and a lots of brass-section comes trough anyway.

Musically, it's not just neutral "represantation of Imperial theme" but sounds rhytmically like "towsends of people moving heavy warmachinery forward" (an accent on the 1. beat but in every second bar) which suites much better for that scene - Williams knew exactly how,what and why he did.

Also, it would avoid "repeating" of a track you now already used in ANH:R which seems to be very conveniant.

It looks like win - win situation if you use it.

Please listen to it and write what you think about it. It's on a 2CD soundtrack edition from 1997, CD1 , a second part of an "previously unreleased" track 4 : THE IMPERIAL PROBE / ABOARD THE EXECUTOR .

I isolated only this second part for everybody to hear it because that's where music starts in the original movie, after "We better start the evacuation". After "reveal", it goes to Herr Admiral Ozzel - conversation with Vader and others, like the concert  - version in the movie.

Have fun !

MP3:

http://rapidshare.com/files/201159867/Executor_reveal_original_composition.mp3

Hello Ady. One Idea - there ARE some filmfreaks around; maybe someone could land you a good expensive cam for a certain ammount of time... someone who doesn't need it for a few months that is. I'm sure he could trust you not to break it :-))))) ... but christmas is on the way anyway

Greets, s.

Thanx for responding, Imperial Fighter. I could have written it simplier: Trough more intercutting of whole finale, the Duel sequence we discuss could have been parted in two on the point when Luke enters the tunnel (with another Leia/Lando - action inbetween). That would make an impression, that Luke needed much more time to reach to Vent pod and "dispecify" the number of ways/tunnels he went trough... and it could have look like this in the first unsucsessful cut of the movie.

This is for everybody who finds my "book" in the previous post to hard to read :-) 

Now Adywan has only material which he has to work with and I hope he will lose this problem if he decides so, of course. I hope he will not cut this duel sequence in two cause it feels great as it is now. If Luke comes out from an elevator instead a tunnel, it all would all be in the wright place - but he told in one of his later posts, he doesn't know yet ...

I agree with you completely and ... let's see what he'll decide....

One more issue for ESB - fans which i like to mention was cosed by this "wrong floor" problem of accessing the Vent pod. Step by step please now, very dangerous issue. It's called "intercutting".

@Imperial fighter: I tried to find any reason for flipping any image in a Vent pod till Platform duel-part. The only one I saw was the completely wrong tunnel-direction Luke is stepping out from. I couldn't find ANY other reason to flip anything else really, because everything else looks exactly where it should be.

As I said before, there may theoretically be more tunnels Luke goes trough to come to the round window chamber and not only that long one in extended access arm, tunnels and elevators which bring Luke not only to higher floor but also to exit the tunnel from almost opposite direction to the extended access arm, because someone designed the room that way (no foult on anybody).

What brings me to another issue. I have a very good reason to suspect that it wasn't planned to look "wrong" way on the end, and it just came to my mind WHY because it was an issue on my my own recut of ...The Phantom Menace.

In one of Star Wars Documentaries about making ESB Kershner talks about how the first version of a movie was much more intercutted between different action places and "it just didnt work" so they had to recut it again in a completely different, much slower manor (that means remaining on the same place of action for longer time so people watching could have more time to feel and identify with characters wich keeps the tension high rather then jumping all the time from place to place and all you can see in a short cut is a group of people running trough a corridor like later in Ph. Menace).

The new result was much better for everybody then, and they left it this way, connected it trough sounds and music and we all loved it exactly this way because it was like magic. Of course I would like it to stay that way. 

Now... back to our tunnel - floor problem. I suppose that the Duel sequence "Carbon chamber - Tunnel - Round Window Chamber" , in final film presented as ONE was in the first edit intercutted in TWO and it looked like this: "Carbon Chamber - Entering tunnel (maybe even some walk trough it so we see how long it is) - INTERCUT Leia and Chewie running around to save Han - Luke exiting another tunnel after elevator or something - Round Window chamber duel". In that version there were no soundeffects suggesting that the  tunnel is ca 20 m long and is in the same room/place/hall as round window chamber etc. (if there were any at all at that stage).

In second and final, slower intercutted ESB edit two different duel places are in one scene and Luke's approch between them looks wrong despite they tried to cover it by showing the Vent pod from outside (suggesting direction of a long(!) tunnel) much later after Luke falls out a window plus long intercut with Leia & co.! And, admit it, folks, as you first time saw this movie, you didn't think go like "oh that's how  Vent pod looks like from outside, so the tunnel Luke exited 2 scenes before was made in wrong direction!! Bingo!!".

That first more intercuted edit of ESB may be the answer for all geografical problems with that scene, but it would be interesting to ask Lucas or Kerschner... if they remember .... :-)... to find out definitely, among some other things too.

Personally , I wouldn't like any intercutting tempochanging changes in Adywan's version, except it works absolutly great, which he can judge really well, so I trust he will do a good job with this, regardless which way he decides to go with it.

Hm, much ado about nothing from me... I just saw this entering /exiting tunnel sequence again. It's too short sequence to even assume there are diffrent entering and exiting tunnel. Secondly there is a constantly same audio backround which suggests (at least in the finished movie) that the tunnel Luke walked trough is in the same facility/floor/room/place and therefore like, ca 20m long. Manipulating entering and exiting tunnel colours in such short sequence would only have credibility if we saw a lots of similar different tunnels before in the movie but we didn't. Adywan will probably need to find another way of dealing with this "wrong floor issue" but i'm sure he will. And if not... well, we can still enjoy the story, design and the feel can't we? :-)

ImperialFighter said:

Darth Wagner said:

In the movie it's not specified how many tunnels Luke uses to get from the carbon chamber to that round window chamber. Theoretically there  may be more different tunnels Luke uses - that would be an "exuse" for the wrong position of a round window chamber regarding extended arm access tunnel which Luke entered and exited in the movie.

Not quite sure I'm getting what you mean here Darth Wagner.  Surely there is only one  possible route of access to the suspended 'Vent Pod' as far as any kind of 'access tunnel' is concerned, and that is the single long 'extending support arm' isn't it?

Yes, of course! BUT there could be another tunnels of same kind or  tunnel-like corridors INSIDE the Vent Pod trough which Luke accesses the round window chamber. It would be solved like this:

1. Luke enters the white-lighted tunnel. Imaginative location: Beginning of an extended support arm

2. Luke exits the white-lighted tunnel. Real Location this time: The round window chamber in the vent pod.

How can he exit it on completely other much upper level?

Because he may went trough more same looking tunnels in the infrastructure of a vent pod.

Why would Vent pod have 200 same looking tunnels?

Why not? Corridors in Death Star also looked similar cause they probably had only few made.

If Adywan changes this PRESUMABLY same white lighted tunnel in first being more red and second being more blue  then it would be clear that theye are different tunnels.

It's strange they didn't consider this Bespin continuity nightmare in the first place, the drama in the movie is on it's peak, so the most people didn't care where it all exactly happens ... but still...

I had the same way of seeing this thing as Imperial Fighter says. Carbon Chamber was for me somewhere else in the city understructure, near hanging "ramp" incl. round window chamber where Luke and Vader continue their duel.

In the movie it's not specified how many tunnels Luke uses to get from the carbon chamber to that round window chamber. Theoretically there  may be more different tunnels Luke uses - that would be an "exuse" for the wrong position of a round window chamber regarding extended arm access tunnel which Luke entered and exited in the movie.

One simple way to lose this problem could be a different lighting for tunnel during entering vs. exiting scene. I can not anticipate if this would be convincing solution.

Another could be, as Adywan said, to make him get out from some kind of elevator instead a tunnel. Adywan?

Great work again Adywan! :-)

GoodMusician said:

The original cue is too loud and distracting... lol

Distracting from what? Watching a little pod fly through space... this isn't dialogue! lol

You have to realize that Empire Strikes Back is the OPPOSITE of a normal film. The characters end up in a worse place then they began.

The music, as such, does the opposite as well... the big battle is in the beginning of the film, with the "big" internal battle at the end... to kinda balance it out...

But its really like a normal film backwards... this would explain why williams wrote sooo much music for the opening of the film... becuase normally only the end has a lot of music...

Notice too that at the end of the film, not a lot of music is used (the battle between Luke and Vader for example)

But yea... I can see why people want the other... but at the same time, I worked very hard to try to fix the film version of "Probe Droid" but the release is flawed. The horns are flipped and the mixing is all wrong.

Unless hes ok with that or don't plan to change the sync of the music... then I suggest trying the original unused one.

Dear Good Musician

1.You made a great and probably completely correct edit of that composed music with the picture on your last video post here. Congratulations for that, you are a true fan of this films.

2. As "good musician", you probably know that silence is one of the most important things in music... espetially in movies.

3. We can not know WHY EXACTLY  so many  music exists for that opening of Empire. You think it's deliberately to show "the reverse movie", I think it's a normal scoring process, somebody else thinks something else. The only way to find that one out would be to ask John Williams himself

4. Although the music goes well along with scenes in your edit as it allways does with Williams, I think IMO IMO :-) :

a) "probe droid apperance"- music in your cut sounds more to be intended for "Luke on Tauntaun's apperance riding in snow" which probably was 1.st intenton of an editor without probe falling down to Hoth twice but once

b)  your replacement of the echo-station fanfare with continuation of previous music unfortunately (musically) suggests that rebel base is very near poor Luke wich lessses the tension. Fanfare made of hornes and trombones sounded strong and safe as a contrast to Luke's position. I would like to keep them where they are for a strong contrast's sake

c)  I understand the argument of "reversity of a classic screenplay-movie- structure", but it's originally done in some quiet way and not as the main thing. This issues usually come along after seeing a movie a 1000th time when one gives more attention to the structure then to what's going on in the movie. For the sake of the latter, I think Lucas was right removing the music in places. Hoth sequences are even colder that way, Luke is really lonely that way, the movie really "starts" and dont suddenly "lasts"(as in your cut) that way, Han is really lost that way, strong icy wind doesn't disturb music that way (or vice versa - that sounds really weird in your cut athough not so intended when composed), the duell in Bespin is scarier that way,  and the whole opening of a movie doesn't sound like a cheap scored 30's movie. I wold like it to remain that way but with completely remastered score getting more  spectrum and brightness in sound, like ROTJ.

d) A genius composer like Williams can compose anything for everything - it'll always sound great. BUT there are another people working on the movie too , and they have their arguments too, it's a team work (maybe I should not write such stuff here but sometimes one seems to forget that) as this here is too.

f) I would suggest Ady to let you underscore the whole silent version of this movie with him because it would be great to recover the whole score for that occasion like he did on a DVD-9 of ANH-R. That would be really great thing!!!!!!!!!!!

Greets from another musician