Creox

Servii said:

Jesus Christ, this is exhausting.

Usually, when I debate with someone, we eventually come to some sort of understanding, or at least agree to disagree. But I see now that that is never going to happen with you. We’re just going around and around in circles now, with you asserting your baseless conclusions as facts, over and over again. And frankly, I don’t want to waste anymore of my life talking about this with you, so I’m going to be blunt with you now.

What are you expecting to happen when you make these threads? Are you expecting to actually change people’s minds? Do you actually think you’re going to convert people to your way of thinking that this awful trilogy is somehow great if you do enough mental gymnastics for it? Or are you making these threads because you want to argue about it with people? Either way, all you’re doing is stirring the pot needlessly by talking about how much you hate legitimate criticisms of a movie. It’s bizarre, fanatical behavior.

I would love nothing more than to move on with my life and ignore the Sequel Trilogy going forward. As far as movies go, my mindset is to “let people enjoy things.” But that mindset has to be a two-way street. If I let people enjoy things, you have to let people dislike things, as well. That’s how this works.

I get it. You saw these movies in the theater. You loved them. A lot. But you’re going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people are going to dislike or even hate those same movies you love, no matter how much it pisses you off to think of that. You have to let that go.

And? What’s wrong with that?

The fact that you said this makes it clear that there’s no more point talking to you. You will never understand why people have a problem with this. Star Wars does not belong to the creators of the Sequel Trilogy. They merely had the privilege to play around with the world and characters that George Lucas created. The OT and Luke Skywalker are the heart of Star Wars. They were from the beginning. They always will be. If a future work made by different creators undermines that or steals away the original story’s significance in order to prop itself up, then it doesn’t deserve our investment. It’s bad fan fiction.

Enjoy the movies, though.

I thought your discussion was interesting to a degree. It appears you are unhappy you couldn’t change minds either. You make a sweeping assumption that the ST is bad…objectively. Not correct.

oojason said:

A couple of unboxing type videos for the 18-disc blu ray box set of ‘The Skywalker Saga’ (they should give an indicator of the quality of the box itself, disc housing etc. In the UK they are £60-65.):-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlU__hc70qw - at the Rick Adams youtube channel. (6 mins)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIOBud3h9MM - at the smerdp youtube channel. (10 mins)

blu-ray•com’s https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=324306 discussion thread on the 18-disc set.

blu-ray•com’s https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Star-Wars-The-Skywalker-Saga-Blu-ray/259251 info thread on the 18-disc set.
 

I have not found a review for the 9-disc DVD box set as yet. (in the UK they are around £40-45.)

 

It is apparently available in the US too:-

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Skywalker-Complete-Blu-ray/dp/B082WXD4ZH - $149.99. It may be cheaper and also available elsewhere?

Reading the comments from those in England I was quite surprised. I pre-ordered in December and received mine in four days after it shipped.
I live in central Canada!

Not sure of how the story of the Whills would have turned out (obviously) but I can tell you when I first read this was GL’s plans for an ST I was very puzzled and very glad he never got to do it.

DominicCobb said:

My thought is it’s someone in the casino remotely. Sort of like Palpatine’s full size hologram having a walking platform in TPM.

That was my thought as well…or someone who cannot breath or live in the atmosphere…same thing either way. Strange thing to hang your thoughts on the entire movie on imo.

KumoNin said:

I suppose you could look at it as getting it out of the way. I would be inclined to agree with that, although he already was “some guy”, so there was no mystery to begin with, not a real one anyway. I agree that he had to have character growth (learning to trust droids), but, as I stated, was a quick 180

Well, if he didn’t trust droids after those sscenes then he likely never would. OTOH, maybe he just trusted that one.

The opening of every SW film always gets me amped no matter how many times I’ve seen it. With the OT I currently think the opening scene of ANH is still awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfLyMAHrQE

Omni said:

DominicCobb said:

CatBus said:

I should point out that Star Wars won an Academy Award for editing (due in no small part to the work of Marcia Lucas), so being in awe of its original editing is not unwarranted.

People tend not to realize I suppose that Lucas oversaw the editing team and even did some editing himself on the film.

This. The editors said it themselves when receiving the Academy Award.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk&t=460s

This seems a good place to put this but I’m assuming many here have already seen it.

Dat_SW_Guy said:

It seems as if the entire forum members have gone into depression, some waving their white flags at Disney, others in denial about how they really want to love and accept this trilogy, and others just outright planning an armada against The Mouse.

Well, predicition for WW is about $180m I guess.

Not surprising in some ways as you have three distinct eras of filming this saga. Late 70’s to early 80’s, Late 90’s to early 2000’s and mid to late 2010’s. Technology has had distinct influence on how each eras filmed looked along with the change of how Hollywood makes them. With the consolidation of companies owning them. I see a wee bit of the change we now see in the blockbuster even as far back as ROTJ.

My point, of course, is that each era has it’s defenders and critics. With that in mind I would be amazed if everyone got along. Somewhere along the line people stopped just going to movies to have fun but to compare it to the one era they enjoy the most. IMO of course.

Dat_SW_Guy said:

Interesting tidbit: While I was scrolling through r/starwarsleaks, I read a thread regarding the death scene of Ben, in which it points out numerous inconsistencies in the shots (i.e Rey clearly delivering dialogue that have been cut out) that suggest that they originally were planning to have a completely “different ending” in which Ben Solo could’ve lived.

Link to reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eetirx/the_scene_where_ben_dies_is_actually_reversed/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Link to original twitter post pointing out the isses:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Centennial_2/status/1209242571639267328

JEDIT: Here is the OP of the Reddit post’s idea of the actual sequencing of this scene:
“I think that the right sequence in this scene is: he comes back from the pit, heals Rey, lies down due to exhaustion, she wakes up, pulls him up, they do talks, he laughs and then they kiss, implying that they both would’ve survived.”

The one comment that stuck out for me suggests studios frequently film that kind of scene backwards to avoid injuries for the actors. Definitely would explain some of the confusion.

oojason said:

luckydube56 said:

adywan said:

Strange that no one is factoring in the fact that a bootleg dropped 2 hours after the midnight screening in the UK has finished. BEFORE most other places even started showing it. Now there have been 3 different bootlegs appear in 3 days. This didn’t happen for TFA or TLJ. It was a week before a bootleg dropped for TLJ. On social media there are posts filled with people saying that they no longer have to pay to go and see it.

And then there is the fact that this one has been released the weekend before Christmas. People are avoiding going out during the day to the cinema because of the Christmas rush. I’ve seen many people saying they can’t go until after Christmas.

Outside of this site the reaction towards TROS has been overwhelmingly positive.

But what i can’t believe is just what this site has now become. Fans openly wishing for these films to fail? Seriously? This place has now become everything it had always been accused of. It was bad enough when TLJ came out , but now it’s become a place i no longer enjoy visiting.

The sequel trilogy is objectively a piece of crap. The OT still reign supreme and nothing since has approached it.

Whoever founded this site understood that consciously or subconsciously. There would not likely ever be anything to match or even rival it within the same universe.

Whether you had different expectations or not, the name of this site says it all.

No, the name of the site does not say it all…

There is a massive difference between appreciating or cherishing the Original Trilogy (plus wanting the theatrical versions to be made available) - and being civil about other Star Wars content you may not like…
 

From the ‘About’ section…

We’re a diverse and welcoming community - this site is afterall based on a love & geeky reverence for all things Star Wars 😃
This is especially so for the Original Trilogy (obviously) - yet also a respect for everything else Star Wars too. Yes, even The Holiday Special, maybe…
 

If anyone thinks this site, given its name, is a place to bash on other Star Wars content with vitriol and constant negativity - to the point of toxicity - then they are very much mistaken.
 

Valid criticism and opinion are always welcome - wide-ranging views and interpretations are welcome too.

Some members are over-stepping the mark with their repeated criticisms - to the point of continuous negativity. Some have not seen the film, nor plan to, and stating why is perfectly acceptable. However, some are going far beyond this - seemingly going into related threads and making continued negative posts about content they have not seen, informing others here how awful the thing they hasn’t seen is… Some have seen it - and are doing similar…

Members here have left, are leaving, and considering leaving… whether temporarily or permanently… because of such repeated negativity from a few others on here - that is not going to continue.

If people can’t post in a civil manner here, nor have a modicum of respect for fellow members, and wish to spread their habitual agenda of negativity… they won’t be posting here at all - that goes for anyone.
 

This site is a vast one - and covers many aspects of Star Wars over a long, long time. There are many topics or issues to discuss - I suggest people find something they do actually enjoy posting about - rather than spending their considerable time and effort in repeatedly bashing or hating on films or the people who made them - and for some here who claim to not care about, or have not seen.

Some people will like the film, some will not, others mixed etc - it is not the end of the world because someone has a different opinion. Don’t be ‘that guy’.
 

It’s Christmas - peace and goodwill to all, Season Greetings and all that.
 

Word…cheers and Merry Christmas.

Ronster said:

I prefer watching older films. I want them to feel dated. I like the way older films look and sound.

We now live in a world where films are pretty pristine to the point where it feels very machine made rather than hand crafted.

You can feel the humanity more in old tranfers of older films. And I kind of miss that sort of retro hand made feel.

It is important not to lose that but all these new releases something seems to get lost with all the technology most of the time.

Agree 100%

My favorite film is the Maltese Falcon for many of the reasons you cite.

Ronster said:

That is correct…

My Top 10 that need something done…Re-Edit and Restore

1.An American Werewolf in London*

2.Conan The Barbarian

3.Star Wars (A New Hope)

4.Enter the Dragon

5.Apocalypse Now! (Still pending the Apocalypse)

6.Total Recall uncensored*

7.Dune David Lynch Directors Cut

8.Gladiator Uncensored version

9.Alien Further Extended and Uncensored

10.Stargate Extended and uncensored with completed special effects

*Never had alternate version

I Can dream though… Let’s face it. I’m still not Happy with most of the re-cuts that these films already had and this is the main Reason why it is important to always keep the theatrical versions. you always have that to go back to.

Star Wars stands out as a totally different beast to these films though.

Highlander would be 11th but it’s no biggie over the rest of these.

Raiders of the Lost Ark would be 12th but again it’s done well but it’s a tease on some deleted scenes.

13th Would be Jaws for the Alex Kitner Death Censorship amongst music cues removed and stuff.

Essentially when a alternate cut and deleted scenes surface or you know about what is missing you can get a syndrome about it some what, and It can be hard to shake off… But only on films of huge magnitude with amazing artistic merit.

Just as an aside. I am looking forward to Villeneuve’s Dune next year more than I did with TROS. I know, I’m a heretic.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

Well I still disagree that a Palpatine figure was needed, but that’s hardly my issue with it. We agree on the main point, which is that she could have remained a nobody, even with the plot as is.

Honestly, Palpatine’s return probably wouldn’t even rank in the top 10 of my problems with this film.

Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

I understand your POV just fine, but you’re forgetting the end of the movie. Or, you would be if you had gotten to that part.

Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping.

I can read synopses with the best of them.

Man, so salty.

NFBisms said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Of course the film could be a lot of different things with many different plots. My main point with this whole discussion is that considering the film we got I really don’t care if Rey was a Palpatine or not. She could also be a nobody and I would be fine with it as long as they could make it work. As I said to Dom, It is hard to present an antagonist for Rey in this film without someone like Palpatine. The relationship between her and Kylo is a different thing imo and has been from the beginning. It took the emperor to change them both.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against. Unless you are saying stick with Kylo as that?

Antagonist? Again, I think there are a lot of ways they could play with it. I think keeping Kylo as the antagonist for at least part of the film would be important, with them ultimately together coming to terms with the darkness and lightness within both of them. What if Kylo turns halfway through, and then the final battle is against the Knights of Ren, but the battle isn’t be to destroy them, but to save as many of them as possible (in this version they’d be the other students from Luke’s academy). Of course that’s just one way. What if Rey and Kylo switch sides halfway through? And then it becomes Ben trying to save Rey from the darkness? Or again like I said, you could even keep Palpatine and make her want revenge. Or maybe there doesn’t need to be a big force bad, and it’s a battle for the heart and soul of the people of the galaxy to rise up against the First Order? Point being, I think there are a million ways they could have done this film without having to undermine what they had been setting up.

Antagonist, right you are. I’m jumping in here between clients and not paying attention as much as I should with what I’m typing.

You make some interesting points and, again, I like the ideas. I guess my main issue with regards to my initial posts was that I am not concerned about Rey being related to anyone. It’s just not a problem for me. I think her being a nobody works if most of the plot is different but it doesn’t work with what we have. Of course this movie could have been made in a million different ways.

ray_afraid said:

Here’s something: I can totally see myself in George’s shoes.
I remix & remaster music & I sometimes go back several times making new changes before I’m satisfied.
I do graphic design & so long as it’s a personal project with no deadline, it will be changed many many times months after “finishing” it.
I like to poke at & tweak my creations, often being much happier with it than I was before.
So, I don’t hold this against George at all. But, again, suppressing the original version is simply WRONG.

I agree…and I think, from what I’ve read of this long thread, most people also agree. Just release the original, untouched but cleaned up and remastered along with every other version you want aka: Blade Runner.

Ronster said:

AN Redux came first then now he shaved it back to a halfway house between the theatrical and Redux all are available though on the new release.

Coppolla should Nudge him…

Although I’d say he Copped out of the possibilities of what I can see 😃

Groan!!

😃

Hal 9000 said:

So how did Leia know Rey was a Palpatine but Luke didn’t?

I would think it would be specific, not just that she sensed it. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Luke have? (At least once he reconnected himself to the Force.)

I think he did?? or am I misremembering?

OutboundFlight said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

Exactly. Although the ST is a muddled mess of two director’s visions, the one unifying theme I’ve noticed is Rey forming a family not with her past but with her future.

This theme is not present in the OT. There Luke was trying to redeem Vader while not falling to the dark side himself. The question of whether Luke would fall to the dark side was a legitimate one, but I think the bigger question was whether Vader could be redeemed.

Furthermore, what does Luke say when he refuses Palpatine? “I’m a Jedi, like my father before me.”

Rey doesn’t have that luxury. Her past is firmly rooted with darkness and the Sith. If she were to follow the OT’s footsteps, she might be able to switch sides for a while but will ultimately return to her family… in this case, evil. By rejecting Palpatine, Rey is finally letting go of her haunted past, and accepting her family with the Resistance: Finn, Poe, and all the other friends she’s made this trilogy.

It’s literally the name of the movie.

Yeah, I do see her struggle as different from Luke’s. If the big problem is everyone is related then there are different ways to do that but it doesn’t sway me tbh.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against. Unless you are saying stick with Kylo as that?

Ronster said:

Creox said:

crissrudd4554 said:

Creox said:

Slavicuss said:

Creox said:

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

Spite. He’s pissed the fans didn’t take to his prequels the way they did the original films. So he denies them the originals they hold dear. That’s my take.

He also believes the original versions came up short (for whatever reasons) and wants to improve them, but that’s no excuse for trying to bury them. All versions can coexist as other box sets (CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, ALIEN, BLADE RUNNER, etc) have demonstrated.

I cannot think of another director that has treated one of their films in this manner…does anyone know of one?

Not as dramatic a situation as Star Wars but Milos Forman basically foresworn the theatrical cut of Amadeus after releasing the directors cut.

But I can still watch one or the other regardless…interesting. Thanks!

no you can not see theatrical version. It has been buried on that one at least in HD…

Enter the Dragon is also not available in it’s theatrical presentation.

There is not many out there but there are a few…

Look at it this way many theatrical cut’s could do with directors cuts but without the original theatrical version being ditched… If anything there are more theatrical cut’s needing Directors Cuts than there are Theatrical versions being made unavailable.

Let’s take the Apocalypse now! Final cut as an example… You could be upset that Coppolla never restored the scenes to the ending sequence and the End credits with the camp being napalmed, the shot of the Boat going passed the Plane that is crashed by the River. That is really the meat and potatoes and cinematic magic but it is glossed over.

It’s the Same for Lucus no doubt what you or I might see as the total 100% should be included or restored is glossed over and unimportant. The directors mind is what it is what he want’s to do and what he does not.

You can look in disbelief and shrug and say well why are you doing this?.. Apocalypse now is a massive miss on what could be too afraid to go there no doubt same as Lucus and from the same school and circle of friends but both with the power to do what they want with those films.

Damn…thanks again. The more you know.
Does that include AN Redux?

crissrudd4554 said:

Creox said:

Slavicuss said:

Creox said:

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

Spite. He’s pissed the fans didn’t take to his prequels the way they did the original films. So he denies them the originals they hold dear. That’s my take.

He also believes the original versions came up short (for whatever reasons) and wants to improve them, but that’s no excuse for trying to bury them. All versions can coexist as other box sets (CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, ALIEN, BLADE RUNNER, etc) have demonstrated.

I cannot think of another director that has treated one of their films in this manner…does anyone know of one?

Not as dramatic a situation as Star Wars but Milos Forman basically foresworn the theatrical cut of Amadeus after releasing the directors cut.

But I can still watch one or the other regardless…interesting. Thanks!

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.