Creox

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

I don’t see how getting rid of Snoke makes him anything but more interesting, and I think on the second part, you’re misreading it entirely.

Kylo Ren is Darth Vader in reverse. He starts out as the complex, and conflicted villain, but as the trilogy progresses, he becomes more, and more the one note evil villain Vader was in ANH. As a villain his arc seems completed. He’s rejected his family, killed the past, and taken his master’s place. All his family is dead. Since I don’t expect he will be redeemed in episode IX, the only thing left for him to do is die.

Snoke is not dead. Come back 2 years from now and you’ll see I was correct.

I’ve read some ideas that he’s the prime Jedi. Don’t know where that lore originated but it sounds cool. Well see if you’re right.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/75245044/it-will-be.jpg)

TLJ has set things up perfectly for the franchise to fit in the mold.

TLJ does more to show that it won’t be tbh, but I have thought it would become more MCU-like since the announcement of standalone films.

This. I honestly don’t understand the opposite mindset.

My explanation is, because you approach TLJ from the perspective of a fan of both the series, and the film itself. Having spoken with a few of my friends who are not Star Wars fans, but liked TLJ, they liked TLJ, precisely because it is a more an MCU type movie with fun characters and lots of humor, and not the typical Star Wars film. In my view it has all the hallmarks of a MCU film. Even it’s Jedi heroine is more the super hero type, having been magically given these amazing super powers, like so many of the MCU heroes, while it’s villain is irredeemably evil waiting to be dispatched, and replaced by the next villain of the month.

Well obviously I disagree completely, but especially about the villain. The MCU is of course infamous for its shit villains. But Kylo Ren is quite possibly (and I say this with sincerity) already one of the all time great villains.

I also thought he was a great villain in TFA and to a somewhat lesser degree in TLJ, but much of the complexity, conflict, and family history that made him interesting to me have been removed when he replaced Snoke, and was given up upon by Luke and his mother. He’s now irredeemably evil it seems, ready to be dispatched.

Interestingly, I see Kylo as more interesting and fleshed out. I think he is still very conflicted as he wants to get rid of the old ways entirely but he also didn’t pull the trigger on Leia.

DominicCobb said:

SW is nothing like the MCU. And I say that mostly liking the MCU.

I really like some MCU stuff but on the whole I’m growing tired of the well worn formula…the kind of formula TLJ jettisons. For one example I can tell ya that I was not a fan of Thor Ragnarok which people ate up and the critics loved. I thought it was quite bad…worse than JL tbh.

The Infinity War needs to change things up or risk people just tuning out.

DominicCobb said:

Well this thread grew in my brief absence (I suppose not a surprise at all).

All I’ll say is I’m with NFB, what TLJ did is exactly what SW needed to not become any other blockbuster franchise.

For me that’s a good thing. It doesn’t copy the OT so much as extend it into the future…obviously. I think if they had changed the formula too much as Dr. Dre appears to be suggesting I think the general audience would have been lost and the hard core fans would have lost it even worse.

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

Jeebus said:

I agree that Rey won the fight. Not that it means anything, though; because it was established that Kylo was an emotional and physical wreck that was completely unfit to fight anyone.

This is how I saw it as well. He just killed his dad, was hit by a bowcaster and his planet base is blowing up. Rey is much more than we know imo.

I just registered so…hi all 😃

Just wanted to jump in to this discussion as I have been following the shitstorm this film has created. I really liked it. I felt like I did when I first watched the OT to a large degree. It has stayed with me for the last week and I’m quite excited about how JJ is going to finish it.

I liked the fact it didn’t follow a well worn path and surprised me. I liked the action and touching moments. I really liked that they made Luke more human and allowed him to redeem himself.

Cheers and kind regards.

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Edit: and I loved how she’s a nobody. Her parents being special would’ve been no excuse for her unrealistic abilities.

I think that holds only if you think they are equal in the force which apparently they’re not. I’ve read somewhere that imbalance in the force diminishes or increases ones abilities in it. Perhaps that is the issue?