Collipso

before killing an

that were caught

that his life

if we’re looking at the actual big picture, VIII and VII have to be in line with the original 6, which in several aspects, they’re not, which breaks the immersion for several people.

danced with the

unborn giant elephants

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think some great points have been made recently

• what exactly is Jedi ‘Training’. The indoctrination aspect of this makes complete sense, and helps clarify why on earth the PT jedi thought you had to start training at youth, when in the OT we saw Luke start in his 20’s or whatever. It is very convincing to believe that the training has little to do with force talent. it always seems like the raw Force ability needs to be there, i have never seen that be otherwise (please correct me if i am wrong).

Aside from the references in the film, that suggest a Jedi prospect needs to study in order to reach his or her potential, here’s what George Lucas has to say about it:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life,” Lucas has said. “It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

I appreciate Lucas’ statement, but to be honest, he has said so many contradictory things over the years, and what he has said isn’t always what he put in the movies, so i find it best to stick with what is in the movies.

what he said is in the movies though.

if he could

can the holiday special be remastered in HD? i thought it had been shot on tape, therefore that would be impossible. what about the ewok movies and the 80’s cartoons, can those be HD?

GotG’s cast released a letter asking for gunn to be rehired.

chris pratt posted it on instagram.

ytttt said:

Like Ben Kenobi ran off to a desert planet when everything went to hell?

maybe watch rots again?

Chewielewis said:

Jay said:
I think most disagreements over TLJ originate from people presenting their interpretations of certain scenes as the only valid—and therefore obvious—interpretations, with any interpretations running counter to theirs being completely wrongheaded.

I think thats the thing, if you interpret the film as it is supposed to be interpreted then its a fantastic film. It doesn’t have a 90% RT score and 85 Metacritic score for nothing. People who watch films for a living are capable of seeing its worth, I think that counts for something.

and you’re doing exactly what jay described. “as it is supposed to be interpreted”. great.

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?

This, but also not many people would call a place absent of sex and alcohol a “utopia.”

I’m not even asking for that. I’m just asking for it to be less explicit and not glorified. There’s no reason to show an explicit sex scene between teenagers.

what do you mean with glorified? a sex scene here and there isn’t as big of an issue imo, nor it is glorifying sex between teens. i mean, why is it that much different from a sex scene between adults?

also, when you have something like 13 Reasons Why, which doesn’t exactly glorify anything but is pretty fucked up nonetheless, said thing is usually HEAVILY criticized.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?

This, but also not many people would call a place absent of sex and alcohol a “utopia.”

i agree, but you get my point.

people aren’t supposed to watch those sort of tv shows before they’re at least 16 or 17, but nobody cares. also, most teens are like that, so why would they change from displaying reality to a twisted utopia?

i’ve been playing call of duty, something i hadn’t done in some good 3 years.

it’s 5 am and i’m still up. god, i hate myself.

i just saw a comparison drawn by the official star wars twitter between ezra and rey, and while they’re “both alone, both searching for belonging”, ezra still has to work really hard to improve his force abilities, and he IS a natural. rey, on the other hand…

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).

I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.

But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.

Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.

I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.

Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.

I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.

False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.

As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.

You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.

It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.

Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.

darthrush said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.

yeah because that’s exactly what i meant

Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.

Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.

It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.

Thanks?

No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.

I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.

Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.

i’m sorry i wasn’t clear dahmage. to explain the post you didn’t understand: i was pretty angry with some IRL stuff and gave a more emotional response than usual, and ended up using a super ultra hyperbole. i said rey’s the “best jedi ever”, but what i really meant was that she’s quite capable jedi-wise two movies in already and she had 0 training so far, so i don’t see why IX’s writers would go out of their ways in the final movie of the trilogy to give her some sort of training, given that it’s been pretty clear that it’s not necessary to her.

again, sorry for coming across as unclear to you quite often. you’re one of the posters i enjoy the most here and i’ll try to improve from now on to avoid complications in the future.

…Rey must reach a point no Jedi before has reached…

He [Luke] became a classic Jedi and it could not help him save his nephew from falling.

see, those are two of the biggest issues i have with TLJ and the ST in general.

Luke in RotJ had reached said point no Jedi had previously reached, and given what happens in the OT, it’s quite a big leap in logic for me to believe that Luke would go from his RotJ self into a classic jedi that couldn’t save his nephew and almost appealed to killing him due to that.

TLJ standing alone is a better movie than as the eigth part of the Star Wars saga: Luke, Rey and Kylo have great arcs, Finn and Poe have good arcs, etc. the problem here is that it’s not standing alone, and therefore Luke’s arc makes no sense (because how he’s gotten to the starting point makes no sense to me), Rey’s force abilities make no sense (given what we already know of the force and how hard it is to master it from previous movies), and that kills a third of the movie already, the A plot, the third of the movie that was supposed to ‘carry’ the other two.

now, some of you may read as if i have a problem with luke failing. i don’t. i have a problem with luke acting the way he did when facing his nephew’s possible turn to the dark side, given that he himself had been tempted before and had also turned one of the darkest and most evil guys ever back to the light side. so it feels weird that that’s Luke’s greatest failure.

where’s that ric pic fella

dahmage said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).

I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.

But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.

Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.

I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.

Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.

I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.

False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.

As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.

You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.

It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.

Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.

darthrush said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.

yeah because that’s exactly what i meant

Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.

Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.

It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.

Thanks?

No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.

I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.

Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.

i’m sorry i wasn’t clear dahmage. to explain the post you didn’t understand: i was pretty angry with some IRL stuff and gave a more emotional response than usual, and ended up using a super ultra hyperbole. i said rey’s the “best jedi ever”, but what i really meant was that she’s quite capable jedi-wise two movies in already and she had 0 training so far, so i don’t see why IX’s writers would go out of their ways in the final movie of the trilogy to give her some sort of training, given that it’s been pretty clear that it’s not necessary to her.

again, sorry for coming across as unclear to you quite often. you’re one of the posters i enjoy the most here and i’ll try to improve from now on to avoid complications in the future.

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Time goes by too slowly! It pisses me off.

Sorry, no, it goes by too fast.

i agree, except with the ‘sorry’ part. leave that to warb

DominicCobb said:

Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.

yeah because that’s exactly what i meant

why would rey even need a teacher though? she’s the best jedi ever and she’s only known the force for about a week. no training was required so far, i don’t see why we’d change things now.

personally, i miss fridays