CWBorne

You can find all sorts of quirks with Vader in a ANH in contrast with ESB. He seems much more emotional in the former, and while ruthless doesn't seem like he would kill his own officers at the drop of hat. (In fact given that Vader only kills officers via force choke in ESB, you could easily imagine that he's just really desperate to find Luke and typically wasn't like that through out his entire run in the Empire). 

Thinking about it, Darth in ESB and on is really a combination of the physically intimidating Vader and the cold, ruthless Tarkin from the first film. 

Just finished the two radio adaptations of ESB and ROTJ. A bit disappointing as they don't have nearly as much extra material as ANH. Still Empire is a bit better in terms of what they did add, as other than a cute cameo with Arica and some fun references to Shadows of the Empire, there's not much to Jedi, especially given that Mark Hamill and Billy Dee Williams aren't involved in it.  

Vader constantly having to provide exposition about actions is hilarious; you make a drinking game out of the number of times he narrates what he's going to do Luke next. 

Recently listened to the ANH Radio Drama. Pretty damn cool, as the extra bits add some great insight to Leia and Luke, and overall it feels like Star Wars if it was a miniseries as opposed to a movie. Hell the first hour of it is all stuff that's not even in the movie. Still need need to listen to ESB, and ROTJ, though that the latter was made so much later, without Mark Hamill, and incorporation certain elements from the EU makes me a bit wary. 

Been thinking about ways to avoid the Mandalorians having lightsabers in battling the Jedi and go with some other style fight. Had an idea in my head about them sporting really long, powerful, gauntlet gloves that lightsabers can't penetrate, perhaps ones hot enough to do real damage if they hit. In general I'm envisioning Mandalorian fighters being much more acrobatic with a lot of Jedi actually being more defensive and technical. 

In hindsight its remarkable how lucky Lucas was in Luke and Leia not having nearly as much romantic subtext as they could have in the first two films. 

Wexter said:

OR... the creator could have put some effort to try and make the prequels look like they actually take place BEFORE the OT.

That would actually strike me as the easier way to go. 

I'd say he's disappointing the fans more by not putting out good quality versions of the original films.

See that's the inherent problem most fans have with Lucas. Yeah they're not crazy about the changes but those complaints with be far less frequent if he just put out a cleaned up pristine version of the OT. George can go nuts all he wants. Hell he can get Rip Taylor to dub Vader for all I care provided the original film is preserved. Its the same reason Blade Runner fans aren't bitching about there being 5 different cuts of the movie, because the initial one hasn't been ignored or suppressed.

The whole notion of younger fans not being able to get into the original films merely due to older effects is flawed to me because a lot of kids by their very nature are able to suspend disbelief and embrace the universes that are presented to them. The visual style alone attracts fans.

In fact the entire concept of doing a visual overall (everything short of an outright remake) is flawed because the films were not shot, edited, or scripted with the intent of having 21st century effects inserted into them. Its why the additions are so jarring, not simply because they are different from what everyone's used to, but because its goes against the flow of the whole production. Its like adding CGI to the robot in Metropolis. You can claim its to add the story of the film and a reflection of Rotwang's brilliance in mechanical design, its still going to stick out because Fritz Lang didn't use the angles and cuts he did so certain effects could be added.  

Obviously its early in the draft, so I'm sure you have much more planned, yet I will say to be careful in regards to what's be revealed and when. If there's more plot twists and turns fine, but if not that much you may wish to consider spreading out the information revealed at bit more broadly than just the first 35 pages.

The Dark Jedi thing for example could very well be something that Kenobi reveals later. Its a tricky balance of course, as you're trying to keep the audience intrigued about this universe but not confused as to what's going on. Again, this may not even be a valid complaint depending on what you have planned. 

Also it doesn't hurt to be specific in giving characterization to the clones. The multiple types is a good touch, and ship design is a a good visual shorthand, but an audience might be expecting notable/unique about them. The design of the Stormtroopers and the look of Vader immediately got the audience interested in ANH. Something to remember. 

Read the whole thing. Like the interplay between Skywalker and Kenobi, the action opening was a good choice, and the ship going to light speed and tearing up the clone vessel was a great touch. 

Certain elements feel a tad too reminiscent of ANH, so it might help to go a different route with them. Maybe the ship they get looks great, but runs terribly in contrast to the Falcon. The test with Anakin isn't him with his senses blocked, but perhaps overloaded with either sight or sound so he has to focus his abilities and mind on one thing. Just an idea. 

A decent portion of the dialogue has excess unnatural exposition but you already admitted that.

Finally I think it would help to get just a bit more development between Anakin and Obi-Wan before they leave Tatooine. Doesn't really seem like the former sees so much force potential in the former, and that he's along because he's just a helpful pilot. I guess I just think that Anakin's decision to be a Jedi needs a seem a bit more meaningful, because it feels more like him choosing a career choice.

Overall I will say there's tons of potential with this.  

Definitely some interesting ideas here. 

I will say it'll be tricky focusing on a character like Ben who's never brought up once in the original films except apparently with Kenobi doing a subtle tribute via his alias. Not saying it can't be done, but it sounds a bit difficult. 

The limited number of Jedi does seem to put Kenobi's comments about them being the guardians of peace and justice in a curious light. Don't get me wrong the excess amount of the Jedi in Lucas' prequels certainly diminished the concept as a whole, but it does strike me as odd that that there would be so little of them.

I await to see what the infertility of the Jedi means thematically and in terms of character, but at the moment it seems a bit unnecessary. Yoda and Kenobi didn't seem to have children, but that no more implies that Jedi can't have them due to biology than it does because of their beliefs.  

I've had similar feelings regarding the Jedi joelwatts. The Jedi from the original series always struck me as being independent and ensuring peace and justice in the galaxy. Maybe there was some very loose organization, but no real hierarchy beyond master-student and certainly not a council to direct them. The sheer dogmatism about attachment and love taught about the Jedi never seemed to fit with the compassion and connection to the the living Force that was so emphasized in the OT. 

I think that also explains why some were skeptical of the Jedi, specifically because they weren't an institutional body being monitored or checked by the likes of the Senate. Knights almost being mythical in that many didn't see them or the use of the force would demonstrate why those like Han and Motti were disbelieving about it so many years later. 

From what I recall offhand ( keep in mind this is from both notes and novelizations, so dubious canonicity abounds):

-Jedi Knights have been guardians for 1000 generations.

-Obi Wan and Anakin fought the Clone Wars which happened when they were younger. Skywalker followed Ben on an idealistic crusade which may or may not have been the wars.

-The Republic rotted from the inside due to greed and those power hungry. 

-Palpatine gained power at some point thanks to ambitious politicians and powerful commercial entities, but was not necessarily at the same time of the Clone Wars.

-Palpatine seduced Anakin to the dark side.

-Boba Fett is dressed in the armor of a group of warriors who fought the Jedi, in the Clone Wars, supposedly the Mandalorians. 

-Skywalker became Vader and fell into a lava pit (and possibly a nuclear reactor) in a battle with Kenobi, thus scarring him. 

-Anakin did not know that his wife was pregnant when he turned. Mother Skywalker went with Leia where she was raised by Bail Organa (royalty apparently) and his wife who was the minister of education. Her real mother died when she was 2-3. 

-Luke and Leia were separated to keep them safe from Vader and Palpatine.

-Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother. (This sticks out most in comparison to A New Hope which implies otherwise). 

Its a mixed bag for me. I definitely miss the mid 90s period of Star Wars for me, one filled with expectations not soured by the prequels or some of the excessive darkness of the EU. 

However one of the things I've grown to accept is that I can't expect a franchise to remain just perfect for me. Star Wars means a lot of things to a lot of people. Yeah I'm grateful that I grew up in a period of watching the OT, but if some kids today get a kick out of the prequel films and the Clone Wars TV show, good on them. One of the beauties about this franchise is that you'll always find something you'll like.

I mean yeah, those young fans from 84 to 91 didn't have the prequels or special editions to muddle up their love of the series, but they also didn't have the writing of the Thrawn Trilogy, some of character exploration of the X-Wing books, a unique experience of KOTOR, whimsical fun of Lego Star Wars, or the creative efforts of fan films/edits. When you look at everything, I don't think its that bad of a trade. 

In spite of Lucas' best efforts the original films will survive in some form long after he's gone. Hell in 10, 20 years we might see some energetic and motivated people make their own version of the prequels. Readers will be able to enjoy the EU long after Karen Traviss will have laid down the pen. I think fans will still enjoy this franchise many decades from now, and that's something to be happy about.  

I need to read the Thrawn trilogy again to really take in its aspects so I'll leave that ambiguous. Thus, for me its the original films. Oh and certain elements from the Glove of Darth Vader and the Marvel comics. 

Because I refuse to refuse to believe in a Star Wars universe that has neither Moffrences or this guy running around it it. 

The friendly conversation between Obi-Wan and Anakin in episode three after they land the ship on Coruscant. For that scene, everything works, the acting, the dialogue, even a little of bit of the direction. Its one of the few scenes that actually feels like a real conversation between two genuine and likable people. Its actually one of the few times any of the films feels like it has room to breath rather than getting the plot moving or continuing the ham fisted character arcs. Had we gotten more of this between the two, I probably would have enjoyed the films more. 

I don't really like Watto, but I will say he and Palpatine are the only characters in the film who's motivations and characteristics make some degree of sense. Other the fact that as slaves go, Shmi seems to not really do anything for him Anakin seems to have way more time and materials than is credible, everything else does fit. He's a sleazy junk trader who likes to bet and thinks he can make some money off some naive off-worlders.

Its simple not particularly meaningful, but compared to most of the other characters its down right Shakespearean. 

Finally, someone's addressing the glaring flaws of this film. I'll continue. 

4) Poor use of characters. C-3PO helped to translate Artoo's beeps and provide exposition in A New Hope. All he does here is annoy other characters and get blasted by Imperials; just so he can be the wacky comedy relief. Way to ruin the dark tone of the film Lucas!

5) Sudden character betrayal. Lando's betrayal of the characters has absolutely no impact because he's been introduced in the film and we hardly know him. Now if beloved character "bearded Rebel guy who talked about the Death Star" had done it, then the audience would have had some real impact. 

6) No continuity. Why isn't Luke talking about Beru and Owen? They were his adoptive parents and not once does he mention them. Guess they just didn't matter. And why didn't we have a scene of Han reminiscing about shooting Greedo? That was a good scene and its never brought up again even when Han's dealing with another bounty hunter and talks about Jabba. What a waste.

7) Powers as the plot demands. So Ben can appear as apparition as well as speak to Luke. Well I'm glad that was explained. Oh wait, it wasn't.   

8) Offscreen shenanigans. Han had lots of money that he could have payed off to Jabba, yet there's no indication of why he didn't or what happened with it. Evidently Han ran into a bounty bounter on Ord Mantell which had a big impact on him. Yet we don't see any of it, not even a flashback. So I guess there was some other movie story that Lucas didn't feel was necessary for the audience to see. Real nice.

9) Discriminatory character treatment All the major figures get character development. All the human characters. Artoo, 3PO,and Chewie get nothing more than supporting roles and don't seem different at the end of the movie. This is the way Lucas treats beloved icons of popular culture. 

10) Inconsistent character points Lightsaber is the weapon of the Jedi Knight; Yoda never teaches Luke with it. Vader's appeared loyal to the Emperor in the past; is now offering to overthrow him. Luke reveres Ben's lessons about the Jedi including their weapons; still uses a blaster which was called a clumsy weapon. Was this movie made with the first draft of the script or something?

Hmph, what an absurd movie. 

Something I wonder about with the developments in make up, props, and effects is if you could have a visual style similar to that of the original films. I mean, maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but I would think some practical effects would be easier than an abundance of CGI and green screen.  

Actually you just have a meal with a couple of stagehands holding props that you talk to.  

Coppola, Lasseter, Columbus, Kaufman, and Lucas will be added to the dinner in post.  

yotsuya said:

I just thought of an odd parallel, yet somewhat opposite, that Star Wars shares with Star Trek. We all know how we feel about Lucas around here. He is the driving creative force behind the Star Wars Saga, yet he did not do it alone and we all know that an relish in giving the others their due.

Star Trek fans are not quite the same. For one thing, Roddenberry never pissed them off quite like Lucas has pissed of his fans. ST fans praise Roddenberry as the creator of Star Trek. Well, the classic series has as much outside input as Star Wars did. They turned down the first pilot (as too cerebral... a complaint that can be leveled at the first feature film and the pilot of ST:TNG, both projects he helmed directly) and asked for changes. Those changes, plus the input of all the talented writers and actors and further interference from the network, is really what made Star Trek great. Yet to hear ST fans today, it was all Roddenberry. What BS.

That is what I love about the community here. Lucas isn't some god, he is just a man with an idea that has grown beyond him. I love hearing the detail about the creative process and especially how the efforts of one person, Marcia Lucas in this case, helped to make the first trilogy what it was. Films really are a team effort and that really needs to be acknowledged.

The interesting thing about Roddenberry is that many of his flaws occurred prior to an age in which that information could easily spread and that he ended up with little involvement towards the end of his life and thus could commit no sins in the fans eyes. Being kicked upstairs so you're no longer have direct control over major projects seems to have its advantages in terms of one's legacy. Having Berman and Braga to piss the fans off and supposedly tarnish your vision certainly helps too.  

Hell Gene has a pretty spotless reputation even though he once wrote lyrics to the Star Trek theme song that never got used just get some of the royalty money that would have all gone the guy who actually composed it. And even ignoring controversy regarding the original trilogy restoration, Gene still has a better rep than George.  

Padawan's not too bad; it just... reminds me of younglings too much. You know that kind of "space language" that Lucas actually averted pretty well in the original films that seems to just stick out much more in the prequels. Its not like we had fancy names for "Knight" or "Master" after all. Its a minor pet peeve. 

Language in regards to the Jedi is tricky because you run into the obvious problem of why such terms are not brought up again. I do think it can be done, but one has to be careful with it. The Darth thing is intriguing though, as I've had similar thoughts regarding terms of that and "sith" to describe not people but concepts. Anakin using the Darth name as a figurative f*** you to the Jedi and his old life and an acknowledgement of how his old name and life has no meaning anymore would be very interesting to watch, especially if its part of a greater plot line of him seeing the dark side as stronger and more adept towards his goals.  

Something that caught my attention when watching ESB again recently is that Kenobi and Anakin are specifically referred to as Jedi Knights, while Yoda is called a Jedi Master. No big deal in and of itself, as it would perhaps suggest that Yoda is higher than the two amongst Jedi. That's certainly how the prequels went, doing Padawan(sigh)>Knight>Master. 

But given how vague it is, it had me thinking that perhaps, there were several different types of Jedi. Maybe knights were the ones acting as peacekeepers with masters as specifically that, teachers of the deep ways of the force, who maintained a deep connection to the Force throughout their whole lives. I mean Obi-Wan does specifically say that "Jedi Knights" were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. With that its not too hard to imagine Obi-Wan and others acting in such a fashion, with old teachers like Yoda far away from the front lines because they're fighters. Maybe's that's why Kenobi was considered unusual for taking Anakin as student given that usually Jedi masters fill that role.

Granted this has the risk of perhaps being at bit too specific and/or dogmatic, but its intriguing to envision Jedi acting in roles far more diverse than we saw in the original films, because well, there's more than two of them. Jedi acting as builders, planners, thinkers, etc; using the connection to the Force in ways beyond just as peacekeepers. Hence the Clone Wars leads to them getting involved as soldiers in numbers far beyond just the initial knights. Wouldn't that be telling of how devastating Palpatine's purge is; that we're eventually left with a knight and a master, with all the other kinds wiped out.

(Of course this would potentially contradict the skepticism towards the force if the Jedi aren't just isolated knights doing their own thing, but they're might be a way around that.)  

Just a thought, not something I've given specific direction for, but I figured worth bringing up. 

twooffour said:

CWBorne said:

The dinner table scene with everyone in the Skywalker's home always struck me as a microcosm of so many of the dubious elements in the films. Bad comedy with Jar Jar, numerous reminders of the idiot plot (apparently Qui-gon and company can't trade with anyone else for a smaller ship?), horrendous dialogue, and the acting, oh lord the acting. Lloyd is cringe inducing, Jar-Jar is in full shucking and jiving mode, Portman & Neeson feel like they're practically asleep, and Pernilla August seems as if belongs in a whole other movie. 

Its basically at this scene that I sunk in my theater seat and realized that I didn't care about any of these characters. There was nothing engaging about them, and that his was likely the best it was getting.

Ironically, Lucas commented on that scene that he felt like it was a potentially boring drag to the more actioney pace of the film, but had to be there to provid some exposition etc.

Now, everyone will say "what, Lucas doesn't want dialogue, just 'splosions, well figures!!"
It really turned out to be a problem, but only because it sucked so much :D

Well the thing thing is, you can have slower scenes, provided something interesting is going on and the characters seem like they, you know, give a damn. 

Look at the scene with Owen, Beru, and Luke in ANH. The former two are able to tell so much with facial expression alone, and you can clearly tell that something larger is going on than just what's being said. Also, in a remarkable twist, Owen and Luke are clearly shown as getting upset, as if they're passionate about something. Remarkable, isn't it? 

I typically hate reworking scenes from the films, because so much is just bad that trying to fix them seems fruitless, but I'll give it a shot here. What if there was an obvious undertone/subtext of Shmi being very nervous about taking in these mysterious strangers in her house, and some subtle signs that Qui-Gonn senses that she might just alert some authorities and isn't sure if he can trust her or her son? You have Padme trying to engage in some talk with Shmi (the latter only giving her a look when she brings up the Republic's anti-slavery laws), but the whole scene is rife with tension because no one's sure who will do what.

Thus when Anakin does speak up about getting them the part (and it would be the first time he does in this scene having just observed beforehand) it takes everybody a bit back and is a demonstration of the boy's innocence and kindness that in spite of the obvious difficult atmosphere, his first instinct is to help. Do that and have Jar Jar keep his mouth shut the whole time, and just maybe this bit would seem a bit more lively. 

Its not a real outright hate, because at the end of the day, I still have my memories and feelings of the original trilogy, and the stylistic, acting, and story decisions are so contrasting that its pretty easy to just to place the films in discontinuity. I can still sit down and watch ANH, ESB, or ROTJ on VHS and love them. A few bad movies can't make enjoy them any less, no more than badly done Sonic games will take away my enjoyment of those of the 16 bit era. 

No, what I feel towards the prequels is more of a quiet disappointment and sadness at what they could have been. Call it the writer's mind at work, but I can't help but look at so many elements of those movies as so much lost potential. Yeah, any films that came out were bound to have some that dislike it, but part of me does lament that of all the stories of the Republic and Anakin Skywalker we could have had, that's what we got. 

It also has me feeling some pity for Lucas, as I think had he stepped away and let others in as far as working on the films, then maybe he wouldn't be dealing with quite such a mixed reputation and divisive fanbase. His frustrating decisions regarding the original trilogy restoration aside, its quite unfortunate that such an imaginative thinker and a guy who loved film so much will have a legacy written with a "yeah, but..." for all his cinematic achievements. 

At the very least I'd like to definitely feature Tatooine early on just to demonstrate how different it was. I've been debating whether or not to have the Obi-Wan/Owen confrontation in the final moments of the last prequel, as truth be told the actual information given in the scene (Kenobi explaining to Lars what's happened and Lars' anger and resentment towards him) is almost less important to me than showing the crumbling authority and dying economy/livelihood of the planet. Hence demonstrating this world at three stages (Growing prosperous with some planetary authority, devastated by trade problems/conflict, a dusty rock with farmers just eking out a living). 

There's a certain story redundancy to showing it yet again, but there's also some visual elements which intrigue me. As I said, that third prequel scene is still up in the air.