Star Wars prequels were mapped out in 1981, only nothing like the way they turned out — Page 2

Ben : The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

That would seem to imply there is something special about Luke and Leia and their connection to their father that worries the Emperor but interests Ben and Vader.

The only real connection they have this point is blood.

The look of horror on Leia's face when she discovers Luke is Vader's son doesn't make it seem that affection for her absentee father is a threat Vader or Ben can use against Palpatine.

Though ironically Anakin's latent affection for his child is what defeats Vader and his Emperor.

Imperialscum said :

Actually being a good composer has very little or nothing to do with the ear (ie biological structure and so on). Being a good composer is all about mental capacity, perception and imagination which are not genetically linked.

What I was trying to tell you is that the quote doesn't necessary mean that Luke and Liea are storng in the force because of their father. Like I said, it can simply mean that they all happen to be strong in the force. An observation, nothing more.

An example: "my family is good at math"

There is a connection between the mind and genetics it's just not as simple as eugenicist Nazis seem to think it is.

If a family is strong in anything (including Maths) it is almost certainly having the right body and the right upbringing.

Luke and Leia have only their genes in common at that point.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Ben : The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

That would seem to imply there is something special about Luke and Leia and their connection to their father that worries the Emperor but interests Ben and Vader.

The only real connection they have this point is blood.

The look of horror on Leia's face when she discovers Luke is Vader's son doesn't make it seem that affection for her absentee father is a threat Vader or Ben can use against Palpatine.

Though ironically Anakin's latent affection for his child is what defeats Vader and his Emperor.

You have crushed your own argument. The threat that Emperor was afraid of was the very same thing that ended his life in the end. That is Luke triggering something good in Vader that eventually led to return of Anakin.

How is that of any use to Vader?

How is that of any use to Ben who pushed Luke into killing Vader?

Sorry mush but if anything is crushed it's it your wet cardboard thinking.

But at that juncture the Force is still a mystical thing, not something that can be explained through science. The 'will' of the force is why Luke is strong with it. Not genetics. We're talking fantasy not a scientific documentary. For crying out loud remember the whole theme of the film! It's escapism, its fantasy! The only thing we relate to it is the emotion. Not the science. 

Ryan McAvoy said:

...was fully filmed during principle photograhy on ROTS. But Lucas went back in during post-production and rewrote much of the dialogue and called his main cast back for pickups, to change Anakin's fall to be about losing Padme. All of this material is sitting on a tape somewhere in the Lucas archive but I doubt it will ever see the light of day.

 

I would love to see that version. I get that they thought it was missing some relatable emotional angle, but I don't  think the movie recovered from being changed so much after the fact. It's  like they skipped right to the Special Edition stage of fuckuppery without us ever getting to see the original.

It is down to probability mathematics.

A child raised by one or more depressive parent will be more likely to be depressive than a child not raised by a depressive parent.

There is the inherited brain chemistry and cerebral architecture and there is the fact that being raised by someone who is depressive is in of itself depressing.

That doesn't mean that every child born to and raised by depressive parents is going to be the same it just makes it more likely.

In Luke and Leia's case they haven't been raised by the same parents let alone the one with the magic wish power.

So the only source for this family strength that Ben and Vader hopes to use against the Emperor and Palpatine fears is genetic.

Anakin and Vader are practically two people occupying the same body.

Vader wants Luke to give him the edge he feels he needs to kill the Emperor and replace him.

Anakin wants to be with his family.

Anakin's latent love of family kills Vader and the Emperor.

And if Palpatine is so smart to foresee and fear that affection why does he force a fight between the two in a room with a bloody great hole in the floor leading to a bottomless pit?

I can swallow the hubris that would guide him to actually turn up to the station in person as per his own deliberately leaked intelligence and not send a decoy or clone but that's just taking the piss.

Bingowings said:

Ben : The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

That would seem to imply there is something special about Luke and Leia and their connection to their father that worries the Emperor but interests Ben and Vader.

The only real connection they have this point is blood.

The look of horror on Leia's face when she discovers Luke is Vader's son doesn't make it seem that affection for her absentee father is a threat Vader or Ben can use against Palpatine.

Though ironically Anakin's latent affection for his child is what defeats Vader and his Emperor.

Imperialscum said :

Actually being a good composer has very little or nothing to do with the ear (ie biological structure and so on). Being a good composer is all about mental capacity, perception and imagination which are not genetically linked.

What I was trying to tell you is that the quote doesn't necessary mean that Luke and Liea are storng in the force because of their father. Like I said, it can simply mean that they all happen to be strong in the force. An observation, nothing more.

An example: "my family is good at math"

There is a connection between the mind and genetics it's just not as simple as eugenicist Nazis seem to think it is.

If a family is strong in anything (including Maths) it is almost certainly having the right body and the right upbringing.

Luke and Leia have only their genes in common at that point.

Wtf are you going on about genetics for? It's a fantasy film FFS. The only thing that we connect to it through is the emotion of the characters. NOT the science of it. (Banging head repeatedly against wall)

As Bingo said earlier it was ROTJ that the rot set in, the title of this thread states that the prequels were mapped out in '81.....before all that 'Force flows strong in my family' stuff.

J

George started it.

Bingowings is an ignorant twat.

:: Warned for personal attack. Please read this announcement.

 - M

timdiggerm said:

Hey, it's me. said:

Bingowings is an ignorant twat.

Well this is no way to discuss things on a forum.

I've been addressing his questions but he's chosen to ignore me rather than debate his point. So to me, he's ignorant. And I feel my point is valid. So he's a twat as well.

Hey, it's me. said:

timdiggerm said:

Hey, it's me. said:

Bingowings is an ignorant twat.

Well this is no way to discuss things on a forum.

I've been addressing his questions but he's chosen to ignore me rather than debate his point. So to me, he's ignorant. And I feel my point is valid. So he's a twat as well.

You haven't really been addressing what I've been writing you are saying the force is mystical and more akin to magic therefore discussing it in genetic terms is nonsense.

After the first two episodes I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you.

Going back to my first post on this train of thought I said Jedi is where the rot set in and I expanded on why I thought this and I didn't call you a vagina.

I'll have you know I'm an over qualified twat :-D

It is relevant to the conversation because in ROTJ the Skywalker family are claimed to be 'strong in the Force'.

In lieu of some magic spell or curse the only thing that connects Luke, Leia and Vader/Anakin alone is their blood relationship, their genes.

Not a nurture relationship, no environmental factors, no unusual diet they don't even like their dad (Leia doesn't even know he is her dad until very close to the end of the last film).

It's a very light jog between that and having microscopic lifeforms in your body.

King Arthur is King Arthur because of the blood of his father yes but that's because authority is passed through his family not any particular abilities (other than his athletic potential).

King Arthur is good at swinging a sword because he was squire to his step-brother and trained by his step-father (both trained knights).

Fantasy is fantasy but it still has to stay true to it's own rules.

On another thread the problems with the Han rescue plan in ROTJ were discussed. You wouldn't say, it's a fantasy so it doesn't matter if that part of the plot doesn't make sense so why shouldn't other aspects of the story be held to the same standards?

Heilemann said:

Having issues with the force being strong with the Skywalker family is having issues with fables, mythology and fairytales at large. Fate and destiny are as integral to Star Wars as they are to the King Arthur legend.

Not that that'll satisfy the ever present whiners, who keep hanging around here for reasons that elude me.

Hurray someone understands it.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

King Arthur is King Arthur because of the blood of his father yes but that's because authority is passed through his family not any particular abilities.

King Arthur is good and swinging a sword because he was squire to his step-brother and trained by his step-father (both trained knights).

Now you can still say his family (he and his father) was good at sword fighting, can you? It would be an observation of facts that doesn't have to do anything with any kind of inheritance...

Skywalker family was strong in the force. An observation of facts - Luke was strong, Liea was and Vader was. It doesn't mean it was inherited. Yes?

Their family don't have prepacked sword wielding ability that can be plotted with before birth or in early childhood.

Ben and Vader assume that Luke and Leia are 'strong in the Force' without training.

Stronger than Han or Chewie or Sy Snootles or Cliff Richard.

The only thing that connects Luke, Leia and Anakin at a fundamental pre-trained level is their shared genetic information (unless they all share a magic tattoo that nobody talks about).

Heilemann said:

King Arthur is King Arthur because of the blood of his father yes but that's because authority is passed through his family not any particular abilities (other than his athletic potential).

King Arthur is good at swinging a sword because he was squire to his step-brother and trained by his step-father (both trained knights).

Fantasy is fantasy but it still has to stay true to it's own rules.

King Arthur pulled the sword out of the stone because of his blood.

His royal blood gave him the mystical authority to pull the sword (only the King could do it and he is the King).

In modern parlance his magical ability to pull the sword was genetically determined.