Religion — Page 67

TV’s Frink said:

darth_ender said:

But most atheists hate God

How can you hate something that you believe doesn’t exist?

WYSHS

And…

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/

yhwx said:

darth_ender said:

Note to ywhx, this last bit is ad hominem, as it does not address the issue, but merely attempts to defeat argument by attacking the man. I point this out to you because you, feeling like Lord Haseo, would not point out his faults. To really hold a legitimate point of view, you must be willing to challenge your own views. I do not see you as willing to do so.

I am always willing to change my views. I always view my opinions as in a box and can be changed at any time. Some opinions take a lot to change, and I haven’t seen anything here that makes me want to change an opinion.

I brought this up because I notice you are not one to play fair. You will jump right in when you agree with someone, but not when you disagree. Have you not read the difference between his posts and mine? Yet whom did you call out as fallacious and ad hominem-ing? Me.

However, I will give you credit that you have repeatedly shown a change of heart on this site when you felt someone made a good refuting point, so I appreciate your flexibility there.

darth_ender said:

Jeebus said:

darth_ender said:

Let me ask you an honest pair of questions. Yes, of course there will be follow-up, though it may be several days before I can spare a few minutes to return to this. Here they are:

Has religion contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Evil things are done in the name of religion, but that does not make them speak for all religion. Nor do all religious or religious people bear the sins of those who have committed evil in their name.

Also, just because crimes are committed by people who are religious does not mean you can ascribe their crime to being religious.

Actually I can, it’s pretty easy to do when terrorists are going around screaming “Allahu akbar” and named their organization the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Perhaps I misinterpret your point, though.

So ultimately, while evil has contributed evil to this world, I caution you not to paint all of religion as evil based on what some have done with it.

Has atheism contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.

Not that I know of, but I assume you’re gonna refer to the Communist regime of Stalin. As far as I know, the actions of Stalin were not committed in the name of atheism, he did it because he wanted power. Stripping people’s religion from them was an effective demoralization tactic, so that’s what he did. And it’s not like communist Russia was a godless society, their god was the state. Bear in mind, I don’t know a whole lot about communist Russia.

Now there are points where I would bring up Communist regimes like the USSR, but I wasn’t planning on doing so yet. Since you brought it up, however, let’s go ahead and address it.

First, it’s always easiest to state that the Soviet Union exercised a religion wherein the state was the object of worship. Really that would be more accurate of Fascism/Nazism, whereas there was more of a personality cult surrounding Lenin and Stalin, and there was an ideology that demanded exclusive devotion. One could not be a member of any political party except the Communist Party, and anything else was seen as disloyal. But such excuses do not pardon the fact that this was a nation that actively fought against belief in God or other organized “traditional” religion. There were no rites, holy books, or prayers. What existed was propaganda, suppression of dissension, and cover-ups of the crimes of the leaders and the Union as a whole. But the nation was, for all intents and purposes, actively atheist.

Which leads to my second point: any ideology can be used for evil. How many atheists have called for the destruction of religion. Look at the likes of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, and others. They cling not only to an ideology, but in fact are so firm in their conviction, so aggressive in their stance, so negative in their rhetoric, so once-sided in their arguments that…one could almost consider them a religion! Sure, they are not as severe as the USSR, but really the same ideological purity exists on a lighter level there. But how tolerant are they of other viewpoints? Do you think they put up with atheist fortune tellers? Atheist Jains, Buddhists, or Confucianists?

I disagree, I’ve never seen an atheist lobbying about the evils of Buddhism. They focus on Islam and Christianity. Islam because it inspires terrorism, and contributes to the oppression of women and gays. Christianity because of the few Christian politicians who try to incorporate their religion into politics. Tennessee tried to get the Bible to be the official state book, but luckily the governor vetoed it. That’s the kind of thing that atheists fight against.

But to return to my original reason for asking these questions, let’s recap:

Yes, there is evil committed because of religion.

However, as atheism is not an ideology (supposedly), there cannot be any evil because of it.

But then it begs the questions:

What good has religion contributed to the world?

Though I think it’s misguided, it gives people emotional comfort.

And if atheism is not an ideology and cannot contribute evil, then how can atheism contribute any good?

It can’t, and it doesn’t have to.

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Or do you really think there aren’t plenty of examples of people using religion as an excuse for violence against gay people?

Of course there are.

Ok, so my logic is sound then.

As for the other point, granted, but I’m reasonably sure violence against gay people is much more common than violence against anti-gay people, and further that religion often plays a part in it.

Atheists and atheist nations have been hateful and prejudiced as well. The difference is that atheists have been quicker to be more accepting in recent decades (as in tens of years compared to hundreds of years of intolerance), whereas religious folks have taken longer.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

The point is that calling it a sin can (in certain deranged people’s minds) justify hate and violence, and that makes it hate by extension at the least.

So because someone misinterprets what I believe to justify their hate and violence, means that I hate as well?

I’m not understanding this logic.

It means that your religion helps to encourage hate, intended or not.

Even though we believe in loving everyone, even our enemies? Even though we believe that committing acts of violence is also sin?

Those people ignore that.

But there are those who emphasize these greater laws, even when they perceive homosexuality as sin. So why paint them all the same? Why hate all religion when religion first promulgated such universal love?

moviefreakedmind said:

Jeebus said:

I disagree, I’ve never seen an atheist lobbying about the evils of Buddhism. They focus on Islam and Christianity. Islam because it inspires terrorism, and contributes to the oppression of women and gays. Christianity because of the few Christian politicians who try to incorporate their religion into politics. Tennessee tried to get the Bible to be the official state book, but luckily the governor vetoed it. That’s the kind of thing that atheists fight against.

My problem with a lot of American atheist activists (I can’t speak for ender) is that they fail to see the obvious contrast between the problems we’re seeing within Islam relative to Christianity. As scary as Tennessee making the Bible the official state book is, it pales in comparison to your previous sentence. That’s not to say that they don’t have a point on that issue, but a lot of atheists not only ignore the problems within Islam, but actively defend Islam. That’s what blows my mind.

I agree. I think a lot of atheists are afraid to criticize Islam because they don’t want to be called racist (which is predicated on the idea that all Muslims are Middle Eastern, which is not true) or any other slanderous names. I think that if any religion needs criticism, it’s Islam.

Jeebus said:

Haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m skeptical of it’s legitimacy. I value things like this;

more than a single quote that he may or may not have said.

Here’s one of the many quotes that contradict the one you’ve posted; “We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian.”

Look at this with an open mind, please.

Even if Hitler wasn’t a Christian, the overwhelming majority of people who committed his atrocities for him were. And if that’s the case, then I could have just as easily said;

Jeebus said:

Do you? The homogenous group of Christians known as we believes in loving everyone, even their enemies? Maybe you personally do, but these guys don’t;

Here was where I planned to introduce Communism with pictures of the Red Army and The League of Militant Atheists.

And while I can see the display of the KKK, as these men justified their evil with religion, the Nazis were evil due to their devotion to the state, and some of them happened to be religious. There were atheists among the Nazis as well. And for all the diverse and contradictory quotes, the infallible Wikipedia tells us that most scholars believed it was Hitler’s intent to eradicate Christianity from the Third Reich ultimately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

darth_ender said:

Jeebus said:

Haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m skeptical of it’s legitimacy. I value things like this;

more than a single quote that he may or may not have said.

Here’s one of the many quotes that contradict the one you’ve posted; “We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian.”

Look at this with an open mind, please.

Even if Hitler wasn’t a Christian, the overwhelming majority of people who committed his atrocities for him were. And if that’s the case, then I could have just as easily said;

Jeebus said:

Do you? The homogenous group of Christians known as we believes in loving everyone, even their enemies? Maybe you personally do, but these guys don’t;

Here was where I planned to introduce Communism with pictures of the Red Army and The League of Militant Atheists.

And while I can see the display of the KKK, as these men justified their evil with religion, the Nazis were evil due to their devotion to the state, and some of them happened to be religious. There were atheists among the Nazis as well. And for all the diverse and contradictory quotes, the infallible Wikipedia tells us that most scholars believed it was Hitler’s intent to eradicate Christianity from the Third Reich ultimately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Looks like my Nazi picture got scaled down, that’s too bad. When I made that claim I was more sure that Hitler was a Catholic/Christian… whatever, but MFM’s quote was interesting. I’m still skeptical of it’s legitimacy, but I have reconsidered whether Hitler was a Christian for political reasons, or it was his true belief.

I’m not sure what’s so bad about Wikipedia, though. It’s good as a resource for finding better sources. All those little bracketed numbers are other sources that you can look through, and Wikipedia is more of a repository of that information.

darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.

Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.

I am not referring to your ignorant generalizations of the Bible, I am referring to the fact that you literally said, “I hate Christianity.”

There are no generalizations. There is good stuff and there is bad stuff. For me the bad outweighs the good because there are other works in which I can learn the same lessons that The Bible teaches. Also “I hate Christianity” =/= “I hate Christians” but then again you already know that.

I don’t have time for a youtube video. I will simply say that if it was racist of me to say I hate black culture, it is equally hateful of you to hate religion. That was why I used my dramatic example. I have little time to post here, so I wanted to get some attention and draw the parallel that if you hate the chosen culture of a people, you in many ways are hating on the people themselves. Sorry youtube video, and sorry Lord Haseo.

It’s just someone saying “bullshit” but I’m glad I didn’t waste the time to find an informative video…not that it would have helped any.

Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.

Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.

You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.

Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”

That’s why I brought it up

But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”

Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).

You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.

Lord Haseo said:

There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.

Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?

Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.

No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.

See: Lord Haseo 😉

WRONG ATHEIST

yhwx said:

Discussion from Good News thread continues here

Don’t you think one of them could have done this if they wanted to?