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ROTJ "Pre-film Training" Edit

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When Luke is introduced in ROTJ, he seems more mature than he was in ESB. He has also built a lightsaber. This and other things seem to lend to the belief that Luke trained with Yoda prior to the events of ROTJ. However, in Jedi, officially Luke has done no training with Yoda.

“There are several things in the movie that let’s the audience know that some time has passed.
Luke’s demeanor is very different, showing a shift in his character and maturity since we last saw him. He’ built a new lightsaber. That means hes tracked down the how-to guide and all the parts n pieces. Maybe you can do that in an evening, but I’m doubting it. He’s wearing Jedi robes/outfit indicating that he’s become more involved in the Jedi ways.
Lando has infiltrated Jabbas palace to the point that he can walk around there freely and seems to have some sort of guard job. Luke & Co. knew where Han was being taken, but it’s not a place you can just walk into and do as you please. It would take time to work your way in and be accepted as part of the gang. That don’t happen overnight either.
Yoda has gotten very weak and is about to die. No signs of that last time we saw him.”
-ray_afraid

This was a hot topic of discussion in the ROTJ-Revisited thread (see http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/STAR-WARS-EP-VI-RETURN-OF-THE-JEDI-REVISITED-EDITIONADYWAN-NOW-IN-PRODUCTION/id/56441/page/24 ), however, Adywan has said he will not make changes to the crawl or do any restructuring. This is completely understandable, Adywan obviously wants to focus on fx improvement and changes that are more universally agreed upon (like Endor battle expansions).
However, that doesn’t mean this issue cannot be addressed in a separate fanedit!

Thanks to the following users (sorry if I forgot any):
Nhoj3
ray_afraid
DominicCobb
.Mac.
darth_ender
NeverarGreat
ChainsawAsh

Restructuring the first act (moving endor scenes to beginning) was discussed, but some feel that it creates as many problems as it fixes. For example, Luke is wearing his glove and he shows up late to the Rebel briefing. Still, I’ve always thought Jedi could use a good restructuring, so some people are going to try this, even if it doesn’t get past the proof of concept phase.

The other edit is much less radical. Nhoj3 came up with the great idea of instead revising the crawl to say that Luke has been on Dagobah, but has since left. After some discussion, NeverarGreat came up with a better crawl that addressed the issue of Luke asking Yoda about his parentage. This is that crawl:

It is a time of open war. As the Rebellion gathers its strength for a decisive strike, Luke Skywalker has returned to the hidden world of Dagobah to complete his Jedi training.

Unable to face the question of his true father, he awaits word from his friends as they prepare to rescue Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt.

Little do they know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly been constructing a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star…

The plan for this edit will be to put this opening crawl at the beginning of ROTJ, as well as the removal of Luke’s line “I have a promise to keep to an old friend" now simply say “that’s right R2 we’re going to the Dagobah system”.

This post has been edited.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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It may not even be necessary to remove the line ‘I have a promise to keep, to an old friend’, since he has promised to ‘finish what he begins’ and complete the training. No doubt he believes that he has left his training unfinished yet again to go rescue Han Solo, only to be corrected when he goes to Dagobah one last time. Also, this line made it seem (to me) that Luke had spent more time with Yoda than we were led to expect given the events of ESB, so it could further imply their close friendship. In the theatrical version of the movie, it just sounds like Yoda is a friend and also happens to be old, which is rather less compelling.

DuracellEnergizer: "^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts."
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I have the same thoughts as NeverarGreat. To me the relationship seemed warmer, in comparison to ESB. So it seems to me there was some more training or time together between the movies. Like in ESB, Luke said he would complete his training, so his line still works.

It may seem slightly off when Luke sees Yoda and he talks about being old … but added sick. When Lukes goes off to save Han, during that time Yoda got sick. The time span could be weeks from when he left Degobah to help save Han. So that whole scene still can work. An older person can get sick and go relatively quickly, even if you saw them weeks before. (happened to me a few times)

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I think I’m going to do a quick and dirty edit of the structure I posted in the ROTJ:R thread over the weekend to see if it works pacing-wise. I’ll throw it up on Vimeo when I’m done to use as an example in this thread.

Also, thanks for making this thread, Yoda! Hopefully we can keep this discussion out of the ROTJ:R thread from here on out.

Beginner of many projects, finisher of few

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Here’s the alternate structure I posted in Ady’s thread:

ChainsawAsh said:

Ideally, for me, the sequence of events would be:

  1. Opening crawl, establishing that Luke is finishing his training while Leia and Lando make plans for Han’s rescue upon Luke’s return.
  2. Vader arrives at DS2, meets Jerjerrod.
  3. Leia as Boushh sells Chewbacca; edit out Threepio or recolor and redub him.
  4. Luke and Yoda; Yoda dies.
  5. Leia rescues Han and is captured herself; Han in jail with Chewie
  6. Luke and Ben convo, probably shortened; Luke leaves Dagobah
  7. The Emperor arrives at DS2
  8. Reinstate deleted scene of Vader communicating with Luke and Luke building his lightsaber
  9. Droids go to Jabba’s, deliver Luke’s message (shortened, add Leia reactions, no “favorite decoration” Han on the wall)
  10. Droids conscripted into Jabba’s service
  11. Luke arrives at Jabba’s

And the rest of the sequence of events play out more or less as normal.

I also like the proposed idea of moving the Luke/Ben convo to Endor, which might help with the pacing here.

But the big problem with all of this for me is the rebel briefing scene. I’ll play around with that a little this weekend when I do my half-assed proof-of-concept cut.

This post has been edited.

Beginner of many projects, finisher of few

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Unfortunately I think the ideal sequence of events is probably impossible to achieve.

You’d want to use the lightsaber construction scene, repurposed on Dagobah (as many have suggested). Then after the sail barge assault you’d want to use the sandstorm scene, and then follow that up with Luke talking to ghost Ben at his hut. And I don’t think it’d be possible to make any of that work.

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I’m not sure it’s impossible, hopefully (hopefully)just really complicated and time consuming.
Building a model of the Kenobi hut interior to a scale large enough to manipulate the light to match the Dagobah set footage from the existing version. Getting a body double for Mark so the construction of the saber can be redone without the issues that deleted scenes have. Making new transparent images of Sir Alec with the trees of Dagobah removed.

It’s possibly all doable but who’s gonna fly it kid… 😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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^ Usually you’d need some pretty good upsides to invest a lot of time and effort into an idea, such as the late Starkiller Firing in TFA:Gentle Restructure. I’m not sure what the potential upsides to such a change actually are.

Another possible crawl, this one playing up the finality of the conflict and differentiating it from the plot of the previous films:

It is a time of open war. As the Rebellion gathers its strength for a decisive strike, Luke Skywalker has returned to the hidden world of Dagobah to complete his Jedi training.

Unable to face the revelations of Darth Vader, he awaits a summons from his friends as they attempt to rescue Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt.

Little do they know that the EMPEROR, intent on completing his Imperial fortress, has been secretly constructing a Death Star to secure his tyrannical rule once and for all…

This post has been edited.

DuracellEnergizer: "^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts."
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and Starlight Project

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I always got the impression that Luke had returned to Dagobah in between films and completed his training. As said, there is a feeling of a decent amount of timing having passed (on the order of at least months to half a year or more) and a distinct shift in Luke’s manner, maturity and mastery on some level of the force. It would be cool to see a few scenes like Luke constructing his Lightsabre but in my mind theyre completely unnecessary and I don’t know how you’d integrate them into the movie anyway without completely changing the tone of the movie, especially at the start with the rescue mission at Jabba’s palace.

.Val

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Valheru_84 said:

I always got the impression that Luke had returned to Dagobah in between films and completed his training. As said, there is a feeling of a decent amount of timing having passed (on the order of at least months to half a year or more) and a distinct shift in Luke’s manner, maturity and mastery on some level of the force. It would be cool to see a few scenes like Luke constructing his Lightsabre but in my mind theyre completely unnecessary and I don’t know how you’d integrate them into the movie anyway without completely changing the tone of the movie, especially at the start with the rescue mission at Jabba’s palace.

Yeah, many others feel the same way you do, which is why the “crawl edit”, which simply edits the opening crawl of Jedi so that it explains that Luke did go to Dagobah for training, has some people excited.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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NeverarGreat said:

It is a time of open war. As the Rebellion gathers its strength for a decisive strike, Luke Skywalker has returned to the hidden world of Dagobah to complete his Jedi training.

Unable to face the revelations of Darth Vader, he awaits a summons from his friends as they attempt to rescue Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt.

Little do they know that the EMPEROR, intent on completing his Imperial fortress, has been secretly constructing a Death Star to secure his tyrannical rule once and for all…

I prefer this one. It has a little more punch to it. “Question of his true father” was a little clunky.

Man, I just love this idea though. It’s strange how an adjustment to the opening crawl can make the movie so much better. It’s weird, but for me, this aspect of the original film always bothered me.

NeverarGreat’s revised crawl brings with it these general improvements to the overal feel/tone/plot of Jedi, at least for me:
-It explains why Luke has progressed as a Jedi.
-Yoda does truly feel like an old friend, now that Luke has spent much time with him.
-instead of Yoda happening to die when Luke shows up, its more like he was already sickening and was just holding out until Luke could finish rescuing his friend.
-when Yoda says “your training is complete”, it actually makes sense. In the original version, it seems like he’s contrdicting himself from ESB, saying “eh, now that I’m sick, you don’t need training.”
-You can tell that the question of Luke’s father is something both of them have avoided. Only until the matter at hand is resolved (rescuing Han) and Yoda is on his deathbed, do both of them confront the uncomfortable truth.
-Since Luke is on Dagobah (never shown but that’s what the crawl tells us), and not Tatooine, his arrival at Jabba’s palace is even more enigmatic and cool. It really makes him seem like an awesome Jedi coming to rescue his friends

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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Here’s my ideal opening for ROTJ. It’s from the “wish list” thread and is now 6 years old, but… here it is. I hope you can follow.

Opening text would have to be altered to mention that Luke has returned to Dagobah to continue his training.

After opening text, we pan down to Darth Vaders Super Stardestroyer near the uncompleted Death Star.

Cut to Darth Vader in his mediation chamber talking to Luke telepathically through the force urging him to join him on the darkside.

cut to the deleted scene of Luke in the cave working on his new light saber. Edit the exterior of the cave to resemble Dagobah. Luke shakes the voice in his head and continues working and then igniting his saber.

Cut back to the Super Stardestroyer and we see Vader’s shuttle leave for the Death Star (why was he leaving from a standard Stardestroyer originally?) continue to the original opening scene with Vader and Jerrod.

After that, cut to Yoda’s hut on Dagobah for Yoda’s death scene. After Luke says “So I am a Jedi.” Cut Yoda’s line about having to face Vader again and just cut to him saying “When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.” This way we get the idea that Luke has continued and now finished his training with Yoda. Yoda dies then cut to the Emperors arrival on the Death Star then back to Dagobah for the Obi-Wan scene, then on to Tatooine.

This would give the beginning of the film a more menacing tone with Vader still haunting Luke and more of a build up to the action at Jabba’s palace.

I know some feel that this opening would drag and be boring, but at this point the audience should be invested in the characters and story enough for this to be interesting. It certainly is to me.

And as for Luke showing up late to the briefing, footage would need to be altered so that he’s already there. (the “I’m with you too!” moment is corny anyways.) His moment with Leia (“What’s wrong?” “ask me again sometime.”) should be before the briefing begins.
As for the deleted footage of Luke in the cave not being HD and looking terrible next to the other footage… Yeah, I dunno.

This post has been edited.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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To me, I’d rather watch a movie in SD with effective use of deleted scenes than a movie in HD missing out on its full storyline potential.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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There are so many good ideas in this thread. I feel such a restructuring could be very effective in one or a combination of more than one of the previously mentioned ideas.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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I’m actually pretty excited to throw together a rough cut of this (including the deleted scenes). Here’s hoping I don’t have to work Saturday!

Beginner of many projects, finisher of few

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darth_ender said:

To me, I’d rather watch a movie in SD with effective use of deleted scenes than a movie in HD missing out on its full storyline potential.

I think the problem with the deleted scenes is more about film damage.

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DominicCobb said:

darth_ender said:

To me, I’d rather watch a movie in SD with effective use of deleted scenes than a movie in HD missing out on its full storyline potential.

I think the problem with the deleted scenes is more about film damage.

I made a version of the light saber scene once that I didn’t think was too bad. It wasn’t perfect, but I thought it was passable.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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ray_afraid said:

Here’s my ideal opening for ROTJ. It’s from the “wish list” thread and is now 6 years old, but… here it is. I hope you can follow.

Opening text would have to be altered to mention that Luke has returned to Dagobah to continue his training.

After opening text, we pan down to Darth Vaders Super Stardestroyer near the uncompleted Death Star.

Cut to Darth Vader in his mediation chamber talking to Luke telepathically through the force urging him to join him on the darkside.

cut to the deleted scene of Luke in the cave working on his new light saber. Edit the exterior of the cave to resemble Dagobah. Luke shakes the voice in his head and continues working and then igniting his saber.

Cut back to the Super Stardestroyer and we see Vader’s shuttle leave for the Death Star (why was he leaving from a standard Stardestroyer originally?) continue to the original opening scene with Vader and Jerrod.

After that, cut to Yoda’s hut on Dagobah for Yoda’s death scene. After Luke says “So I am a Jedi.” Cut Yoda’s line about having to face Vader again and just cut to him saying “When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.” This way we get the idea that Luke has continued and now finished his training with Yoda. Yoda dies then cut to the Emperors arrival on the Death Star then back to Dagobah for the Obi-Wan scene, then on to Tatooine.

This would give the beginning of the film a more menacing tone with Vader still haunting Luke and more of a build up to the action at Jabba’s palace.

I know some feel that this opening would drag and be boring, but at this point the audience should be invested in the characters and story enough for this to be interesting. It certainly is to me.

And as for Luke showing up late to the briefing, footage would need to be altered so that he’s already there. (the “I’m with you too!” moment is corny anyways.) His moment with Leia (“What’s wrong?” “ask me again sometime.”) should be before the briefing begins.
As for the deleted footage of Luke in the cave not being HD and looking terrible next to the other footage… Yeah, I dunno.

There would be some problems with this sequence, especially with the lightsaber building. The whole reason the scene was cut in the first place was that it played much better to have the saber revealed during the sail barge fight. Similarly, Luke’s wearing a black traveling cloak in the cave but not when he’s walking around on Dagobah. So he goes from looking menacing and slightly evil to having Beru’s haircut in Yoda’s hut, then back to him being a menacing badass when he’s (re)introduced on Tatooine.

The theatrical version has problems, sure, but I don’t see how it can be changed without creating more problems than it solves.

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DominicCobb said:

darth_ender said:

To me, I’d rather watch a movie in SD with effective use of deleted scenes than a movie in HD missing out on its full storyline potential.

I think the problem with the deleted scenes is more about film damage.

I agree, it is problematic. I’ve seen several people attempt to clean them up with amazing results, but no one has had the ambition to follow through on it. Perhaps someone will go to such lengths as to make the scenes passable as SD footage.

I will be forever haunted by the fanedit that will never come to pass, and which I will only fail at myself: Star Wars: The Lost Cut. Ryan McAvoy did an amazing job incorporating deleted material, and it was acceptable because he deliberately lowered the standard so that the whole movie was black and white and would have eventually had film damage throughout. It gave it character, yet allowed for the deleted scenes to be reintroduced. I loved it and wanted to see it completed, but he didn’t feel he could do it justice and gave up permanently 😦

I feel a “Lost Cut” could be made for all three OT films and would be a lot of fun!

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I’m actually pretty excited to throw together a rough cut of this (including the deleted scenes). Here’s hoping I don’t have to work Saturday!

Looking forward to what you create (assuming you have the time)!

This post has been edited.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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NeverarGreat said:

ray_afraid said:

Here’s my ideal opening for ROTJ. It’s from the “wish list” thread and is now 6 years old, but… here it is. I hope you can follow.

Opening text would have to be altered to mention that Luke has returned to Dagobah to continue his training.

After opening text, we pan down to Darth Vaders Super Stardestroyer near the uncompleted Death Star.

Cut to Darth Vader in his mediation chamber talking to Luke telepathically through the force urging him to join him on the darkside.

cut to the deleted scene of Luke in the cave working on his new light saber. Edit the exterior of the cave to resemble Dagobah. Luke shakes the voice in his head and continues working and then igniting his saber.

Cut back to the Super Stardestroyer and we see Vader’s shuttle leave for the Death Star (why was he leaving from a standard Stardestroyer originally?) continue to the original opening scene with Vader and Jerrod.

After that, cut to Yoda’s hut on Dagobah for Yoda’s death scene. After Luke says “So I am a Jedi.” Cut Yoda’s line about having to face Vader again and just cut to him saying “When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.” This way we get the idea that Luke has continued and now finished his training with Yoda. Yoda dies then cut to the Emperors arrival on the Death Star then back to Dagobah for the Obi-Wan scene, then on to Tatooine.

This would give the beginning of the film a more menacing tone with Vader still haunting Luke and more of a build up to the action at Jabba’s palace.

I know some feel that this opening would drag and be boring, but at this point the audience should be invested in the characters and story enough for this to be interesting. It certainly is to me.

And as for Luke showing up late to the briefing, footage would need to be altered so that he’s already there. (the “I’m with you too!” moment is corny anyways.) His moment with Leia (“What’s wrong?” “ask me again sometime.”) should be before the briefing begins.
As for the deleted footage of Luke in the cave not being HD and looking terrible next to the other footage… Yeah, I dunno.

There would be some problems with this sequence, especially with the lightsaber building. The whole reason the scene was cut in the first place was that it played much better to have the saber revealed during the sail barge fight.

Meh. I never felt the “saber reveal” was a big or impressive moment anyway.
JEDIT- I mean, It’s a great moment because you realize Luke’s about to kick ass and the day is saved, but not because of the lightsaber itself. I feel the cave reveal is a better “Oooh new lightsaber!” moment.

Similarly, Luke’s wearing a black traveling cloak in the cave but not when he’s walking around on Dagobah. So he goes from looking menacing and slightly evil to having Beru’s haircut in Yoda’s hut, then back to him being a menacing badass when he’s (re)introduced on Tatooine.

I got no problem with that either. He’s cloaked and serious/focusing in the force while building his saber, more casual when chatting with Yoda, and trying to look imposing while entering Jabba’s palace.
What is lost is the idea that Luke may have changed for the worse in the time between films. I don’t find that much of a loss either as even as a small child I never was worried he’d gone dark. If he had, he’d have abandoned his friends and the Alliance. He’s clearly (to me anyway) just trying to look like a badass.
My problem with the idea for this cut is that Luke’s introduction in ROTJ is pretty badass… But in this cut, his introduction would be more mystical with the cave scene/Vader taunting him and I think that could work well to. I do think additional footage would have to be shot for it to work though. A Luke double would have to be used.
I’d have to see it all cut together to know if it would work for me, really. But I think it’s worth a shot.

This post has been edited.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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I am eventually going to make a crawl in blender with the following text:

As the rebels gather their strength for a final attack, Luke Skywalker has returned to the hidden planet of Dagobah to complete his Jedi training.

Struggling to face the revelation of Darth Vader, he awaits word from his friends as they prepare to rescue Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Janna the Hutt.

Little do they know that the EMPEROR, determined to secure his rule once and for all, has been constructing a battle station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star…

This post has been edited.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

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I like it a lot. I’d still keep Neverar’s opening line (It is a time of open war), which feels more in line with the opening lines of ANH and ESB. But the rest flows better, especially the third paragraph.

Not sure about “revelation” versus “revelations,” though. The plural sounds better, but I mean, it was only the one revelation, wasn’t it?

Beginner of many projects, finisher of few

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