RE: Starting point for Luke.
Luke ran off to ‘save’ Han, Leia etc and ended up minus an hand and needing saving himself.
It makes sense he would go straight back to Dagobah fulfill his promise to his Master who was justified in urging caution and get answers for the Vader being his father thing.
It also makes sense for Leia to be as reckless as any other Skywalker and rush in, get herself captured and need rescuing from the now fully trained Jedi Knight.
When Luke and Vader are talking on the dock for the AT-AT, consider having a faint sound in the background of the AT-AT walking away. It’s a great personal conversation between the two and the way the troops walked away it feels like they are just hanging out in the open AT-AT. You’d have to remove the head of the walker in the very last shot of the scene.
Also, I know some think Revisited shouldn’t change to match the prequels, but when Vader says “Obi-Wan once thought as you do”, is a glaring discrepancy. Obi-wan never once gave Anakin a chance to turn from the dark side. It would be so much better if he said, “Your mother once thought as you do,” because Padme really did ask Anakin to leave with her.http://boards.theforce.net/threads/obi-wan-once-thought-as-you-do.22740126/
Thanks for the link. But even after reading through it, the line still doesn’t jive. If the line could be switched to “Your mother,” it would be so much better for the moment. I don’t think Vader feels like he let Obi-Wan down because he believes he’s right. But being forced to acknowledge his last moment with Padme to Luke would have to sting.
If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”
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Luke also seems to have gone through at least some more training at the start of ROTJ. He’s much more of a novice during his duel with Vader in ESB. It makes sense that he’d have finished his training with Yoda as soon as he could so he’d be ready for Vader next time.
Ideally, for me, the sequence of events would be:
And the rest of the sequence of events play out more or less as normal.
^THAT
Luke can pick up things with the Force without having been trained in ESB. He has the ability to progress without Yoda. For all we know, Yoda was just trying to keep Luke safe and hidden on Dagobah and the training was never really going to end. Once he shows up, Yoda reveals the truth, that he can’t teach him anything else.
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I mean, I’m not going to bitch and moan if the sequence of events isn’t changed, it’s worked well enough for 34 years for me. I just think such a restructuring would improve the film.
But I also think it won’t work very well without reinstating the Vader calling/Luke building the lightsaber scene, and Ady has already said that the deleted scenes are in too poor of shape for him to use. If someone were skilled enough in restoration to get that scene (cough and Jerjerrod’s conflict cough) to an acceptable level of quality, then I think the restructuring is very much worth considering.
ROTJ makes no sense in this regard. Yoda makes a pretty big deal about Luke needing to finish his training, to the point where it is very hard to believe the only reason was to shield him from the truth about Vader, which is what ROTJ implies. And sure, Luke learned his lesson after his failure at Cloud City, but I don’t think that’s enough for him to show up acting like a full fledged and wise Jedi Knight at the start of the next film. I think you can try to rationalize it but honestly this is simply just a silly and poorly thought out aspect of the film.
The question is though, can it be fixed? Redtructuring is an interesting idea, though I don’t know how necessary. I honestly think it can be accomplished fairly easily with a crawl rewrite and some very minimal dialogue changes.
doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda?
But, again, Lando and Chewie are the ones who took off on the mission to find Han. Luke opted out saying "call me when you find him."
It just makes sense that in the meantime he would return to Yoda. Charging off again after failing last time makes it seem like he didn’t learn anything from his previous failures.
ROTJ makes no sense in this regard. Yoda makes a pretty big deal about Luke needing to finish his training, to the point where it is very hard to believe the only reason was to shield him from the truth about Vader, which is what ROTJ implies. And sure, Luke learned his lesson after his failure at Cloud City, but I don’t think that’s enough for him to show up acting like a full fledged and wise Jedi Knight at the start of the next film. I think you can try to rationalize it but honestly this is simply just a silly and poorly thought out aspect of the film.
Yup, Dom nailed it.
Yoda hanging on for Luke to return from saving Han and dying in mid greeting (job unfinished) was really silly.
Like Fett’s death is another box ticked that didn’t even need ticking, ticked in the most dramatically clunky way possible.
All of this “crawl” talk today is ironic because I’ve been drafting a post on it for a few days now. I’ve cut out some of the lead in that talked about ROTJ’s weak points and focus on the bit about improving the crawl to make what follows make more sense.
I too was hoping that restructuring the scenes might improve things but after watching the ROTJ Spence Final Cut I’m not so sure that it can be done and still feel “natural”. Smoothing out these types of changes are what pickup shots are for, and that’s not really feasible for anything involving the principal actors.
Instead of bending over backwards to put Luke on Dagobah first, what if it was done through a revised crawl?
Proposed Revisited ROTJ Opening Crawl (85 words, 7 more than original):
While his friends have scoured the galaxy for Han Solo, Luke Skywalker has evaded Darth Vader’s relentless pursuit by continuing his Jedi training on the secret planet of Dagobah.
With Han finally discovered in the lair of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt, Luke has left his training once again to join his friends in a daring rescue attempt.
Little do they know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly been constructing a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star…
Which leads into the opening of the movie as we know it. It’s not perfect but it does address a few issues:
Granted it begs a few questions. Why did Luke wait to ask “the big question”. Still I think it would work, as Mark Hamill’s delivery of “IS Darth Vader my father?” sounds like a question that has been asked many times before. Some of Yoda’s response may have to be trimmed to make it work, but I really think that it’s worth considering.
doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda?
But, again, Lando and Chewie are the ones who took off on the mission to find Han. Luke opted out saying "call me when you find him."
It just makes sense that in the meantime he would return to Yoda. Charging off again after failing last time makes it seem like he didn’t learn anything from his previous failures.
Completely agree.
In the wake of Force Awakens, we’re still arguing that a Jedi needs extensive training? 😉
This crawl is well-written, but it begs the question of him leaving then going back and being surprised that Yoda is dying if he had JUST seen him a week before.
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I think moving the Dagobah scenes to the beginning MIGHT feel a little akward in regards to Skywalker’s almost dark-sided behaviour in Jabba’s palace. Not that it would totally lacking any sense, but don’t you think it might feel a bit strange: Skywalker talking to Yoda and Kenobi about being a Jedi & stuff and in his VERY NEXT SCENE he runs around force-choking people?
That’s part of why I think the Vader “calling to Luke” thing from the lightsaber building scene is necessary for this to work.
JEDIT: You can also cut Luke using a Force choke completely, which might help with that. And maybe cutting the Obi-Wan conversation, so he’s going from a darker place (confirming his father is Vader and watching his second mentor die) to another darker place (being telepathically tormented by his evil father) with no “certain point of view” convo in between.
I’m all for cutting the Force Choke.
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If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”
Luke can pick up things with the Force without having been trained in ESB. He has the ability to progress without Yoda.
^ This.
I’ll also include what I’ve said before from another thread:
I think this does make perfect sense from a logical perspective [to have Luke training with Yoda from the end of ESB to ROTJ], but, the dialogue that is said during this scene keeps it from working nicely, for me anyway. Let me explain why: It would be extremely odd of Luke to be training with Yoda for even a short while and waits until Yoda’s death bed to finally ask that most compelling question - the question that has been echoing in his mind continuously ever since Vader’s revelation. There is no doubt in my mind Luke would ask Yoda this question ASAP. Sure, it’s kind of odd he doesn’t immediately go to Yoda for more training, but it’d be even more odd if he did go there and didn’t ask about Vader right away. So because of this situation, it just wouldn’t work moving this to the beginning of ROTJ - it needs to remain in its original place. I admit, even that deleted scene of Luke finishing his lightsaber is rather cool, but it needs to remain as just a deleted scene [and it sounds like it can’t be salvaged anyway due to its quality].
I said more, including how then he got knowledge for constructing his lightsaber and how the plan for rescuing Han could make better sense, so for anyone curious can click my name of that above quote to see the rest.
I get that, but from the tone of the conversation (Luke’s inflection and Yoda’s sigh), I have no problem interpreting that as Luke having asked the question before and Yoda having avoided answering it.
That’s part of why I think the Vader “calling to Luke” thing from the lightsaber building scene is necessary for this to work.
While Ady has said that no deleted scenes will be included because of poor quality, I feel that this scene has the greatest potential for reshooting with body doubles and some conscious changes (i.e. not showing Luke’s face). I don’t know if that holds any appeal for him, but I think that’s it’s at least possible, and I really like how it connects two disparate parts of the film. It also plays really nicely with the revised crawl that I just proposed in that Vader is desperate to find Luke.
I only have one suggestion for this, but I think it improves the film greatly:
Start the film with Luke on Dagobah
It just makes so much more senseDo you have friends?
How long would you let them hangin on a wall? Weeks? Month? If they survive that long at all.Luke’s waiting to hear from Lando before he does anything. This is set up at the end of ESB.
In the meantime, nothing’s stopping him from going back to Yoda and it makes more sense that he would.
You can click the link in my sig for my ideal opining to ROTJ.
Oh, come on.
How long does it take to find Jabba?
How long does it take to sell him some spice at an unreasonably low price, and offer him more, where this came from?
How long does it take to see that Han is hanging on the wall?
How long does it take to make a “phone call”?
Actually I don’t think Luke has even time to recover properly.
If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”
I have no idea where this 6-12 months came from.
I think I read 6 month in the book, but Im not sure. It was like 30 years ago.
But it just does not make any sense.
ROTJ makes no sense in this regard. Yoda makes a pretty big deal about Luke needing to finish his training,
And he nearly finished it, by facing and surviving Vader.
In the wake of Force Awakens, we’re still arguing that a Jedi needs extensive training? 😉
Well, it takes some time to find a lightsabre 😉
In the wake of Force Awakens, we’re still arguing that a Jedi needs extensive training? 😉
This crawl is well-written, but it begs the question of him leaving then going back and being surprised that Yoda is dying if he had JUST seen him a week before.
I guess the only way is during that time he was away (from days to weeks depending on travel time, etc) then Yoda got sick (which he admits, as well as being old) and Luke, like any of us, says reassuring things … granted it was about age.
Though when an older person gets sick, deepening what it is, it can be a relatively quick death …
“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”