very good. on other threads, posters scoffed, snickered and sneered at how i lamented younger fans, due to the cruelty of timing, missing the beauty of the glory years. this thread will vindicate me!
unitl ROTJ, r2d2 and c3p0 were just as iconic as vader. The PT hurt the droids, especially 3PO. Maybe its a stretch but I still say 4. if this was 1980, it would have been 8 ;) It was a modern day Wizard of Oz.
the great thing about yoda was you had this sequel to a film that was already one for the ages with all kinds of famous characters and he becomes just as famous and carries a good part of ESB.
and it was Jabba - not palpatine - that became another classic character.
boba fett was big at the time but I maintain that he didn't become what he is now until the early 1990s.
CatBus said:
In fact, I'd say Star Wars ranks pretty evenly with the Beatles.
Many people have said over the years that Star Wars was cinema's beatlemania. as a matter of fact, when I asked my dad how big and immersive the beatles were, he said only star wars reminded him.
If you make a top ten list of the most recognizable film characters - star wars has 4 or 5 of them. No matter what has happened its still the most storied saga in movie history.
this is why its heartbreaking when I see a star wars fan under the age of 31 - to miss something so special (except for maybe the eve of TPM and flashes of 1997).
let me put it this way - there is a very good reason lucas was able to get away with the crap he did during the PT.
for a long time - star trek was the cult favorite and star wars was the cultural phenomenon that captured the imagination of an entire generation. now - star wars is rapidly evolving into a bigger cult than star trek ever was - a cult of personality. which is exactly how lucas wants it.
georgec said:
Hoth-Nudist said:
That was a great read! Very insightful. Im glad she found happiness after Luca$. If only more people new the real story about the true success of SW, and not just George.
It makes me wonder why some of these people haven't spoken up more. Kurtz has offered some nice tidbits in interviews recently, but none of the other major players seem interested in talking about the behind the scenes action.
My guess is that they accepted a long time ago that George was beyond reason, and it's simply not worth it to them to compete against the perceptions of millions of fans. Knowing the truth about their contributions is peace enough for them.
They may not be spilling the beans, so to speak. But the fact that almost none of the cast and crew from the OT were surprised at amateurish nature of the PT speaks volumes, IMO. Dissapointed, but not suprised.
digitalfreaknyc said:
Ewan got crap? He was fine.
That whole movie was a mess. It was like your dad telling you that he's taking you to the circus and when you get there, you witness a car-wreck.
I meant to say - jake lloyd was happy to be on star wars - and so was ewan.
but they both feel differently now.
Hey Zombie,
Robin Gurland was the casting director for Episodes I and II - but she was not in episode III? any particular reason why? My first impression is she got tired of seeing her hard work go to waste cuz lucas would just have the actors read their lines, but it could be something as obvious as she moved on to other opportunities and Episode III did not require major casting.
Bingowings said:
walking_carpet said: and maybe McDiarmid cuz he was revisiting his greatest role and it was more interesting compared to the other PT characters.
Several classy writers including a certain Mr Shakespeare of Warwickshire would like to have words with you :-D
hmmm...based on wiki, looks like he is more of a theatre actor than movie actor.
alright, ill re-edit to most-famous role.
darth_ender said:
walking_carpet said:
(anyway to search your prior posts? i feel like I've said this before somewhere else).
I'm telling you, carpet, if we just had that twitter-like feed, you'd find all your old comments in the George-bashing thread ;)
no no no..im not talking about apologists, personality cults, Once Proud Saga Formerly Known as Star Wars and what not...i talk about those things every third post. i just coulda sworn i talked about how almost all the actors hated their experience on the PT. verbatim! maybe deja vu
besides..that thread only had a couple of my posts. It was the red tails thread that i really went off on him ;P
Wolfman said:
After the film we had a short chat on the changes that have been made to the film since and how George has suppressed the original.
so he knows wolfman was removed?
SilverWook said:
Kids can be thoughtless and cruel.
Having a nice big bank account from TPM is probably the best revenge. ;)
I know liam neeson got some kind of profit sharing deal, but did jake lloyd have a big contract?
probably enough for college tuition ;)
[sigh] man...the scene with him and his family signing that contract; they were so happy at the time.
The criticsm he got was out of control.
so was ewan...
and poor ahmed best :(
how annoying it was to see rick mccallum joke around about trying to get natalie to sign a 3 picture deal without having yet see one script. Im not a fan of hers, but knowing how she was once pretty picky with roles, she would have been so appalled at how meaningless her character would end up being (anyway to search your prior posts? i feel like I've said this before somewhere else).
I think samuel L Jackson was the only one who was happy the whole time cuz it was just one giant play-time for a fan. and maybe McDiarmid cuz he was revisiting his greatest role and it was more interesting compared to the other PT characters.
not sure if we have won yet; would still like to get my copy of OOT ;)
but for the sake of film history, this is a big deal and a relief. whats the point of awards and recognition if a film can be radically altered from what made it a landmark? I tip my cap to all those that have been tireless advocates.
guess it also means we live to fight another day.
DavidBrennan said:
I actually just got banned from TFN because I used the word "effeminate" to describe Filoni. (The dude has a thick lisp, a womanly gait, and, well, let's just leave it at that.) I'm sorry, but I can state obvious observations, can't I?)
if you called harry knowles fat, smelly, a suck up and a shill, TFN would've loved you.
hard to believe its been so long since I first went onto that website in 1997 - back when it was still the Texas A&M star wars fan website. After 2000, things totally changed. and after 2006, it was just a shadow of its former self.
The bashers' sanctuary was always praised by lurkers for having the most knowledgeable fans.
those were the days....The Star Wars Inter-Fido network, StarWarsfan.org, PrequelWatch.org, aldera.net, sirstevesguide
there was once a thread on TFN 1999 called "Two All-Beefed Padme's", 3 months before TPM. for me, thjat thread represents the absolute last time SW fans were able to celebrate and enjoy.
TheBoost said:
This is less about how the visuals were achieved, but about the lack of passion put into them.
Think of how awesome the following should have looked
- A guy fighting with two lightsabers at once.
- A lightsaber duel in the dark.
- A guy fighting a four-armed monster each arm wielding a lightsaber.
i was excited when I first heard about the a lightsaber fight in the rain for AOTC. I assumed that the rain would cause obi-wans lightsaber to sizzle and crackle...
but it didn't :(
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
American Hominid said:
I don't know, I'd give the prequels a tad more credit than that, if only because their (very) general plot already existed in the 1970s.
Really?
whatever plot lucas had in the 1970s for the PT you could fit on a napkin - maybe the reverse side of the same napkin spielberg used to write up his pre-nup with amy irving
his coruscant stuff is great
both of these pictures remind me of chicago
we never really did get to see coruscant on a street level, except for when anakin chased zam in AOTC.
woulda been kinda nice to see anakin and padme - just the two of them - taking a walk down the city streets, reflecting on things and contemplating their futures. and no, i don't mean the lame-ass walking-and-talking scenes we have now ;P
do conceptual artists not count as part of the design team? was he uncredited at the time?
[sob] i wonder how many mattes of his were removed by the special editions?
anyone know why he was not included for the oscar for art direction? they got john barry and norman reynolds - why not mcquarrie?
im surprised at this - i thought all along he won. thank god he got one for cocoon
the pt had models - but many of the models would have been actual sets or partial sets in the OT. i guess the trade-off is you can build actual sets, but only so many and then you lose the diversity of locations. one of the model makers also said that the digital camera gave problems because it was too 'clean'
for vehicle models, the problem is they would have one or 2 models engulfed within hundreds, if not thousands, of cgi objects.
[sigh] have movies become 'overproduced' ? you may remember during the late 1980s, the music business focused on hit singles, slick big-budget production values and a lot of synthesized/keyboard music. then came eric claptons unplugged album and everyone was like 'wow, check this out!"
not too long after, almost every music genre (rock, pop, rap) became more stripped down and rebuilt from the ground-up.
maybe not a great analogy, but do movies need an 'unplugged'? how about the artist? its black and white and silent!! will that change things?
doubleofive said:
Lucas must have been a fan of "Jingle All The Way".
of all the annoying things lucas says, one of the most irritating is when he says he made anakin 9 years old because a 9 year old would be more traumatized by losing a mom than a 12 year old. yeah...and a 14 year old girl would develop a crush on a 9 year old for the next ten years [rolleyes]
just say - i wanted jake lloyd, and leave it at that.
I've said before, I dont think lloyd was the problem. he was ok in the dinner scene (better than august and portman). and he seemed pretting convicing as a kid that was handy and good with mechanics - maybe lucas saw that. but i never saw greatness or strength in the force other than being told by qui-gon. and lucas' idea of going all the way back to when he was a kid to show he was once good falls flat because - well, he's a kid! if thats all lucas was capable of to show how someone is good, than he truly is a horrendous storyteller. and he is ok with putting a child actor in a position to fail.
its sad to see the documentary of him signing that contract and everyone so excited. this is a film so many people wanted to see and/or be a part of. the way lucas conned, tricked and misled everyone (not just fans but also cast/crew) with his "story and characters", "i had this story since 1977" garbage, makes him beneath contempt.
canofhumdingers said:
glimpses of everyday life on a foreign world.
THIS ^
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
uninspired application of said visuals.
lmao, 5 words that describe what took me 5 paragraphs to say. i guess my post is a PT version of Puggo's OT post ;P
Hoth-Nudist said:
And I cant stand the jedi vs battle droid cgi mayhem. Cant see myself watching that crap ever again.
And I concur about the silly design of the battle droids. They look like something a preschooler would design. Hardly menacing and overly boring. Get a sack Luca$!
but but but...lucas said it was supposed to be that way!! the battle droids were intentionally lame!! he told spielberg this!!
a cynic would say that lucas simply was too lazy to choreograph an action sequence and only cared about the quantity of cgi (not quality). thats how the battledroids were contrived.
good thing we're not cynics ;P
anyways - so when we talk about the visuals, are we talking about strictly what we saw on the final screen or also the concepts, paintings and model work? if its the former, i wouldn't say boring just not engrossing or cozy. The jedi temple had cool drawings and it looks like it was based on the Duomo in Florence - but many shots in the films look so sterile. Utapau looked cool on paper, but it did not work for me at all in ROTS. Polii massa maternity ward also sucked as did many of the order 66 planets. Kayshyyk, OTOH, was great all the way through (too bad we saw so little of it).
I've said on other threads that AOTC for me is the most photogenic of the movies (at least on DVD - in theatres, the protype digital camera and projection caused problems). I liked the fireplace scene (speaking strictly of the visual, mind you) because it was cozy and had actual lighting and color creativity - it was the polar opposite of the over-the-top picnic scene. The Art of AOTC book is the only PT merchandise I own. there is one thing in particular thats kinda neat that no one else seems to have noticed. But even that movie has stuff i dind't like - the cloning facility with the babies looked lame. there was an abandoned concept drawing I saw that looked better than what was in the movie. I already mentioned that horrible shot of obi-wan, mace and yoda walking and talking. and enough has been said about the bone-headed decision to cgi all the clone-troopers.
We all like the 'used universe' of the OT and you dont see it a whole lot in the PT. That could be one reason. But Cloud city looks like something out of the PT and it always looked cool.
just feel the lighting, framing, editing and camera work for scenes that were predominantly cgi left a lot to be desired. sometimes it was cool - the scene in TPM with darth maul and sidious on the coruscant balcony at night. but it was few and far between. the ROTS opening space battle certainly wasn't inactive but it was just a bunch of spacehsips and lasers and explosions occupying every square inch of the screen.
ROTJ coulda looked better too, especially on endor and death star scenes that were not in the throne room. For years I could not describe it but someone said it looked flat and like a TV production - and i think thats perfect. Compare dagobah in ROTJ to ESB. For awhile I thought there wasn't much that could be done - endor looks like earth, no getting around it. and most movies in the mid 80s (worst movie decade ever) also looked like ROTJ.
sadly, as the third part of red letter medias ROTS review showed, lucas simply is not a 'visual' filmmaker as much as he insists he is.
condolences to Ralph McQuarrie 's family.
An absolutely brilliant and creative mind whoss contributions to star wars cannot be overstated. Most posters on this thread have already provided great examples and anecdotes that even I wasn't aware of until now.
RIP
fishmanlee said:
walking_carpet said:
timdiggerm said:
Yeah, he might be thinking of when they used the Trade Federation theme to introduce the clone troopers in AOTC. Terrible decision, I thought.
im referring to the temple raid in ROTS; its the same music that was meant for the arena scene.
people complain that yoda's theme and the corsucant night-chase was shoved into the droid factory sequence in AOTC, but this was even worse.have you heard the original music for that scene? (The Droid Factory)
no. you have link?
Cobra Kai said:
Yeah I do actually have memories of seeing Empire at the theater when I was 3, and then of course Jedi in 83 (i sat in the first row with my best friend).
whoo-hoo!
CatBus said:
Same with Lucas, really. Maybe Lucas WANTED to make a trashy slapstick derivative space adventure with terrible dialogue and a backstory that's somewhere between inconsistent and incomprehensible. Honestly that DOES describe Buck Rogers, oft-cited as a SW inspiration. Maybe that WAS the "original vision" he's always going on about.
yes but the real reason he wanted to make a trashy derivative poorly scripted film is not because of some sentimental attachment or homage. its because it requires less work and less talent - 2 requirements for anything lucas is involved with. later on, after the TPM backlash, he did it intentionally to spite the fans.
So when Star Wars became a huge phenomenon, Lucas thought it was a validation of his "derivative slapstick" philosophy. He completely failed to grasp that it was the other stuff people liked. It's not a matter of his having hated Star Wars all along, it's a matter of him never comprehending what Star Wars was about to begin with (as far as its fans were concerned).
not really, he knew all along. His closing comments in the Making of TPM book prove he knew he was making a worthless movie. for the OT, he just internally and publicly accepted credit for it. and its also one thing to know and recognize a good thing and entirely another to try and recreate it yourself if you dont have the talent.