Alright, after playing around with my browser settings, clearing the cache did the trick. Odd!
Hopefully this also helps anyone else who runs into this.
Thanks for the info, funny enough I did actually upload from desktop. I’ll give it another shot when get back on my pc.
Curious if this happens to other users. Avatar pic works just fine on mobile but on a PC I still have the normal generic avatar (it does appear on the account settings page, but not anywhete else).
I can live with it but if someone knows a fix that’d be great.
Rey’s parents should’ve remained deadbeats who abandoned her. I’m actually fine with her being the Emporer’s granddaughter, but they still should’ve kept her parents being pieces of trash, too.
On that note, it seems a great missed opportunity not to have Rey actually go search for her parents at any point.
I vote Esai Morales for Poe.
Laurence Fishburne for Finn.
Tom Cruise as Kylo (seriously just cut and paste him from ‘Legend’)
Sean Young as Rey in Force Awakens, but the rest of the cast and crew feel she is too “intense” and makes them feel uncomfortable, so they recast her with Jamie Gertz afterwards.
I can honestly see them just putting Hammil, Fisher, and Ford in old age makeup
of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:
Of course the movie certainly does leave the door open for sequels, which is clearly the intent given the 12-film saga idea and Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, but the original film itself does not necessitate a follow up.
What we’re all intuiting is that Star Wars is a tribute to sci-fi adventure serials (among other things), so even as a standalone movie it’s still trying to feel like it’s setting up the status quo for a series of episodic tales starring this ensemble of characters (that we will more than likely never see). The downfall of the Empire and Luke’s rise as a Jedi knight are inevitable, but it still implies that until then these folks are gonna go on a series of fabulous adventures. It’s built into the “happily ever after.”
It’s important to remember the first Star Wars was a postmodern film, the central gag being “we don’t make movies like this anymore, but LOL what if we did?!” All these somewhat dangly threads are all part of the joke. Darth Vader riding off in his TIE fighter is like Dr. Claw shaking his fist proclaiming “I’ll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!” We don’t actually need to see any more because we already have seen it pretty much: even if they continue from each other, we know they’re all going to follow this same formula just like the serials of old. (It’s actually quite a bit like how Spaceballs tells us about its non-existant sequel “Spaceballs II: The Search For More Money”).
It’s not until Empire that the series becomes earnest (that it fully reconstructs the space opera rather than simply celebrate it is Empire’s great triumph, though I’ll wager it’s exactly what Lucas doesn’t like about it going by his “they made it too good” remark).
Channel72 said:
The earliest known drafts of Star Wars, which are significantly different from the 1977 film, still follow the same basic story structure and end with all major plot threads resolved.
I’m sure you already know this, but I thought I’d just clarify a bit for posterity’s sake (like I did in the “Random Musings about the Empire Draft” thread), a couple drafts in Lucas took the story and “broke it in half” and the next few drafts were pretty obviously two-parters (I think it’s often assumed it eventually became thirds, hence the trilogy, but I’m not actually sure if that’s so during the scripting phase). Finally Lucas decided to “steal” the ending of the second part and used it for the first part (the battle with the Death Star), essentially reverting it to standalone status but leaving at least a whole extra movie’s worth of material floating out there.
For both the original trilogy and the sequel trilogy I use the title (well, except the first, which I just call “Star Wars”) while the prequel trilogy I use “Episode _”. I might also prefix “Star Wars” to the sequels if I’m bringing it up out of context.
And that’s not really a conscious decision on my part, it’s more that, frankly, that’s what they’re called. Well, technically the prequels had the whole “Star Wars: Episode _ - The Rest of the Name,” but you look at the logos with EPISODE BLANK in huge text and the rest all tiny, it’s clear what the “main” title is, while the rest is relegated to subtitles (and I do recall most people referring to them as “Episode _” or sometimes “Star Wars Episode _” in conversation, with the exception of certain Star Wars fans when talking to each other).
I’m a little skeptical of the idea that they ever REALLY changed the names of any of these movies. Like, if we were to go look them up in national film registries or whatever, they’d all have their original titles and I doubt the stakeholders would actually want to change them. I think they have a “marketing title” that is fluid with the times (note in the years the sequel trilogy was in its various theater runs the prior films all retroactively became “Star Wars: The Name of the Movie” to match, eliminating the “Episode _”; nowadays it seems a bit more loosey-goosey), but the release title is sort of the “primary key” of sorts.
I’m probably not describing anything us long-term fans don’t already know, but I’m pretty sure these are still the ULTRA OFFICIAL IF YOU WANNA GET REALLY TECHNICAL ABOUT IT titles of the movies:
Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace
Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones
Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith
Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker
^ Lol it’s all good. I think there are a few fake vintage reactions videos going around at this point. I know there’s at the very least there’s one for “I am your father.”
An article on the crowd reaction in the movie theater watching the end of Return Of The Jedi back in 1983:
“Star Wars fans scream for Darth Vader twist in 1983 reaction video” at the Digital Fix
The video:
“Darth Vader’s Redemption - Cinema Reaction (1983)”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhHn6oD-B7M : a 2 minute video at Clavis YouTube channel.
I found it interesting to see, but if I were in the movie theater I would have gone back to a later viewing to try and watch the ending in more quiet surroundings!
Sorry to say but that’s 100% fake. The crowd noises are memes and clips from other movies. I’m a bit stunned that a site that seems to take itself as seriously as that one appears to fell for it.
Channel72 said:
There is a very strange, almost serendipitous scene in Empire Strikes Back that has always fascinated me. It happens after the scene where Chewie flips out and starts attacking Storm Troopers just before Han is about to be lowered into the carbon-freezing pit. Han intervenes and tries to calm Chewie down before things get out of control. While this is happening, Boba Fett aims his blaster at Chewie, but then Vader stops him from firing by pushing down the barrel of his blaster. Then - there’s this weird shot of Leia just staring at Vader for a few seconds. This is followed by a shot of Vader, seemingly staring back at her (although we can’t tell for sure because of his mask). Leia then walks over to Chewie and starts trying to calm him down. It’s the strangest thing, as if Leia and Vader instinctually exchanged some non-verbal agreement to prevent the situation from escalating further.
This moment had always intrigued me, too, especially since it’s underscored with a very ominous instance of the Imperial March that gives the impression This Means Something. I think I’ve more or less put it together thanks to the transcript of Irvin Kershner blocking that scene out from Alan Arnold’s Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back. (Excerpt: https://phantastiqa.com/unscripted-how-the-famous-i-love-you-i-know-scene-really-came-together/)
From that we can see: (a) Kershner wanted to make it clear the reason Chewie and Leia are brought there in the first place is so Han will “behave” and (b) Kershner and Fisher had great difficulty figuring out what Leia should be doing exactly before they take Han in to be frozen (at one point Fisher suggests she slaps Lando - and then she actually does it!).
I think Leia’s glare at Vader is meant to handle both those things. She’s realizing that Darth Vader knew Han wouldn’t cause trouble while she (she especially) and Chewie are there and that’s why they’ve been brought there in the first place.
I think it gets even cooler if you read into it further (and the scene makes it very easy to do so): Leia realizes Darth Vader knows Han Solo loves her. Like, he can sense it with the force and shit. And it confirms for her that Han isn’t just attracted to her or just “really really like” her, he’s seriously, genuinely, deeply in love with her. And I think here is where she goes from “attracted/ really really like” Han to being in seriously capital-L love with him herself, and admits it to him. And his “I know” response doesn’t bother her, because she also knows he loves her, too.
Channel72 said:
Also, Leia seemingly has no reaction to the fact that this implies Vader is also her father. (Luke tells her Vader is his father in the same scene.) Maybe her reaction is delayed or she doesn’t immediately make the connection. She’s upset a few minutes later after Luke leaves, when Han comes by. But it’s implied she’s upset mostly because Luke had to leave.
When Leia makes her aghast “Your father!” I always imagine her thinking, “Boy am I glad Darth Vader isn’t MY father! I can’t even imagine…!”
“Star Wars Special Edition” for me will always be an event first and foremost. They’ve long since stopped calling it that so for me the ongoing alterations are almost a separate matter that just happened to start here. It wasn’t until a few years later when a box set with all the alterations simply going by “Star Wars” did I realize they were trying to make this a permanent thing.
But when I hear “Star Wars Special Edition” I remember not only finally being to see the movies on the big screen, it brought the entire magic of big enthusiastic crowds and pop culture saturation along with it.
Channel72 said:
But on the other hand, there is some evidence that Lucas actually decided that Vader was Luke’s father even before Leigh Brackett wrote the first draft. Kaminski points out how ridiculous this claim seems, because it means Lucas purposely withheld vital story information from Brackett, even while paying her to write the script (presumably out of paranoia of leaking the twist). And yeah, this does seem kind of ridiculous - but maybe it’s more like Lucas was just indecisive about the idea.
I’m thinking he hadn’t decided yet, as we have multiple accounts about Lucas taking his time to mull over where exactly he wanted to go with the character. The thing is, as far as Empire goes, whether the twist is there or not is just a matter of a few lines in a couple scenes near the end. All the real details about Darth’s past are handled in the third film. In their story conference they went over Darth Vader’s motivations and he even gave Brackett a treatment to work off of. I don’t think he wasn’t counting on her bringing in the ghost of Skywalker Sr, that seemed to be something she added on her own.
NeverarGreat said:
Could the words ‘Father changes into Darth Vader’ be a reference to a Force vision, much like Luke’s Dagobah Cave experience? In the finished film Luke defeats Vader and his face turns into Luke’s face, but perhaps there was a version where Luke’s father appears to him in a dream or vision but then changes into Vader to represent the revenge that Luke feels that he needs to take.I suggest this alternate explanation merely because if I suddenly had the idea to combine the two characters, I would simply write ‘Father is Darth Vader’, or ‘Father changed to Darth Vader’. It’s very strange to use the present form of the word ‘changes’ since it suggests something which happens within the film, rather than being a revelation of an unchanging fact.
A couple things immediately apparent with these notes are that they’re pretty much stream-of-consciousness, and they’re not just for Empire in particular but the entire saga (oh, and George Lucas has absolutely terrible handwriting, lol). The whole thing is in present tense and is almost the kind of thing you’d write on a napkin.
I’d emailed J.W. Rinzler a couple years back (this turned out to be mere months before he passed away - RIP) to get some clarification on these notes. Rinzler confirmed again they were undated and it’s possible they could’ve been moved around over the years so they could’ve been written anywhere from 1975 to 1978, but they were indeed found in the archives for Empire and he wasn’t just going back and referencing stuff found from the first Star Wars’ production.
I’m going to hazard a guess that the notes were written in the second half of 1977, before November of that year ahead of his conference with Leigh Brackett. The details read like the first film was already complete (the characters introduced in that film already have their correct names, for one), and appear to be trying to turn Star Wars into a 9-12 part saga (as opposed to the first 1-3 installments of a 12-episode serial). And in general you’d presume you’d want to get all your brainstorming and outlining done by the time you’re writing the first treatment.
On the other hand, you could suppose that after Brackett’s draft and subsequent death Lucas went back to the drawing board a bit to prepare for writing the second draft himself - and indeed the 2nd draft is the first time Empire opens with “Episode V” (on the typed copy, at least).
(More scans of the notes/treatments/drafts at link: https://imgur.com/a/B8Xd69U)
I think the origins of “Father Vader” are probably even simpler than Kiminski’s theory once you take what we know of Star Wars’ development into account.
The Star Wars that hit theaters functions mostly as a standalone story, Lucas having “stolen the ending” of the two-parter he’d had in mind and ending up with a movie that in the broadest strokes resembles what’d become the overall trilogy in condensed form, and there’s really only a few major plot points it didn’t cover, two of the biggest ones being:
With that in mind, when you hear the way Lucas puts it in the “From Star Wars to Jedi” doc from 1983: (https://youtu.be/YKhGkiHSlAA?t=3292)
“As that evolved as I did the first film, I didn’t know how the public would take all this and that it would be as successful as it was and Darth Vader would become the character he became. And so when I got down to the second film, I had to make a decision about whether I was really going to go through with this thing, of him being his father. And I finally decided that that really was the way, that was the original story and that was the one I really liked the most and so I had to stick with it.”
Yes, Lucas is still being cagey here and I’m sure he’s hoping people will take it that a Brilliant Plot Twist was always the plan… but strictly speaking, what he’s saying fits right in line with what we know. He had an opportunity to go back and tell “the original story” involving a cyborg father and a heroic sacrifice, because (completely serendipitously) the “black knight” villain had become the cyborg.
This is the storyline he “liked the most” over the one that moved the father’s death into the unseen past, the latter of which sounds exactly like the kind of compromise you make when you’re trying to shove everything back into a single movie (Obi-Wan Kenobi’s death would sort of serve as a substitute, though that was also entirely serendipitous - Obi Wan was going to live to the end but it was Marcia’s suggestion that he be killed off).
darklordoftech said:
In the 2nd draft, is Yoda still called “Minch”, is he called “Minch Yoda”, or is he called “Yoda”?
He’s called Yoda according to Rinzler’s Making of book (which is where I’m getting my info on the 2nd draft; I don’t have a file of it or anything).
Edited to add: While we’re at it, though, in Lucas’s notes Yoda is referred to by yet another name: Bunden Debannen, a.k.a. “Buffy”.
Do we know at what point in production the ‘darker’ script with “Had Abbadon” (the Imperial City) was jettisoned for a ‘lighter’ script with re-use of the Death Star instead?
Just to be clear, the Death Star was always there in ROTJ. In fact, there were TWO Death Stars being constructed above Had Abbadon!
That said, they weren’t as far along in construction as the one in the final film and I don’t think there were any scenes set aboard either of them. As well, there’s no need for fighters to enter them as their cores are exposed enough that merely bringing down the shield is a sufficient weakness for the rebels to exploit.
(Accidental post. Oops!)
Something I didn’t learn until relatively recently was that they didn’t show Yoda in any of the pre-release ads in order to leave his appearance a surprise.
I can’t say for sure if I would’ve figured out that the little green creature was the great Yoda, it probably would depend on what age we’re talking (I can’t recall a “first time” viewing of the original movies, I feel like I was born having already seen them). But I think I would’ve had some inkling I was in for some kind of twist, seeing how peculiar a place Dagobah as and how mischievous and tricky Yoda appeared to be. And if I were aware of any of the ads or extra material for the movies I think I’d find it odd that I hadn’t yet seen any person or figure who I could peg for another great Jedi master.
Come to think of it, if I hadn’t figured it out by the time Luke is in Yoda’s home, I think I’d probably find the scene profoundly sad, seeing this little old creature who is obviously stalling for time because he’s all alone and never gets any visitors, lol.
Whew! Lots of good stuff brought up here. There’s a lot I’d like to add/respond to, but foremost:
I think Michael Kaminski’s hypothesis is incorrect. He made a decent guess but I don’t believe that’s actually what happened, mostly because there’s evidence that Lucas was considering the twist before he’d written the second draft.
The April 1978 issue of Future Life magazine has a news item explaining that Leigh Brackett had been hired to write the script, and moreover that the production was considering a possible storyline in which Darth Vader turns out to be Luke Skywalker’s father.
Curiously, Kaminski actually does bring this up in his book, but he surmises that both the first and second drafts must have been leaked. I don’t believe this is the case, because:
The magazine would’ve had to have gotten this info from someone behind the scenes who’d gotten wind of what ol’ George was planning (Future Life was a spinoff of Starlog, who indeed had genuine sources), and as we see now with Marcia’s anecdote she confirms he’d been discussing the storyline with colleagues. This supports that the idea of making Darth Vader Luke’s father was being considered at least before the first draft was complete.
I have to imagine the 2006 unaltered DVD transfers will look like complete ass on any modern TV, but every so often I’ll watch movies on my PC at my desk, and if I’m using a highly customizable media software like VLC player where I can finnagle with the aspect ratio and zoom and sharpness and all to my heart’s content, the GOUT makes serviceable viewing.
I think the prices aren’t as crazy now as they once were. The full screen sets often go for much less because people think the bonus GOUT disc is also pan and scan. It’s not! 😉
Haha thanks for the tip!
‘The Secret History of Star Wars – Exclusive (Audio) Interview with Michael Kaminski – SWR #445’ (68 minutes):-Topics:-
• GL and his “liberties” with the making of Star Wars
• 3 films, 6 films? 12 films?
• Father Skywalker becomes Vader
• ESB’s aha moment
• The beginning of Skywalker Ranch
• The Marcia Lucas affair
• The dark days of Skywalker Ranch and Star Wars
• GL’s experimental films
• The Disney Era
Well worth a listen - especially if you haven’t yet read the ‘The Secret History of Star Wars’ book.
‘The Star Wars Report’ - a Star Wars blog and podcast network: http://www.starwarsreport.com
I’d read a lot of ‘The Secret History’ recently so it was pretty nifty to hear from Kaminski again so recently. I think it’s interesting that he still insists Lucas came up with Father Vader while writing the second draft, which made the most sense when ‘The Secret History’ first came out but since then both ‘The Making of The Empire Strikes Back’ and the full text of the ‘Future Life’ magazine piece had emerged and suggest Lucas was already considering it before then.
I guess it’s not the biggest deal (certainly the second draft is when Lucas decided to go with Father Vader, likely for all the reasons Kaminski outlined), but I was curious how developments since his book came out might have reshaped his theories, and it doesn’t seem like they have at all.
I increasingly get the feeling one day we’re finally gonna get our hands on the full 70mm cut for viewing and discover it’s virtually identical to the later cut we’re familiar with aside from the redone final scene. I have a theory that the other supposed differences actually come from one of the prints that mistakenly got sent out with “unfinished effects” shots that we’ve also heard murmurs about over the years.
It’s just a hunch and a guess, I could definitely be wrong, but every time we get a chance to see/ hear some more of the 70mm version the expected differences never seem to materialize.
I just caught this last week (we all knew they just had a wide expansion, right? 2000+ theaters) and I was stunned at how great it looked.
I presumed this was the new 4k master because it did not have the minty color timing of the blue rays, but looking up screen caps of the UHDs, they don’t at all look like what I saw in the theater. Much too murky and still had some of that “minty” look.
Thing is it really can’t be anything else, and I’ve noticed other movies that had rather obnoxious color timing on video or screencaps looked much more natural in the theater, I wonder why that is.
