savmagoett

TV's Frink said:

ABC said:

(... Un gars de chez moi ça, à tous les coups).

A guy of at home that, with all the blows?

Sure, why not.

Ha ha ha :D

Don't trust google translate ;)

ABC said:

savmagoett said:

For those interested:

 Good job :) . (... Un gars de chez moi ça, à tous les coups).

Ça dépends, t'es d'où? Moi de Bruxelles…

Ceci dit je le regrette amèrement TFU en Fr, j'aurai préféré en VO, j'ai pas fais attention :/

For those interested:

savmagoett said:

At the request of Vaderios, here's a little analysis of Cloud City proportions.

…

 

Actually it's not little it's huge, so click my sig for details… :)

At the request of Vaderios, here's a little analysis of Cloud City proportions.

The main establishing shots are those:

(THX to Vaderios for the HD screengrabs : )

The two shapes are similar but not quite the same.

The night one is broader (and from an almost straight camera angle).
The day one is narrower (and from a little lower camera angle).

I have a theory about that difference of width:
I think it's possible that the ILM guys, wanting to portray an enormous floating city, can have given a fish eye kind of effect to the mattes.
Such effect can shorten the broadest part of a wide horizontal shape, as the horizontal ends are further away from the camera, they are more affected by perspective than the vertical ends. And thus give the false impression the shape is narrower than it really is. (hope I'm making myself understandable?)
Cloud City saucer portion shape, for instance, is almost 4 times wider than it's height, so such an effect could occur…

So, my guess would be that the night matte was to portray a farther view of Cloud City while the day matte was designed to portray a closer view. But unfortunately, in the movie, the two views are used both in far range and close range, which messes things up a little. For instance, in the two screens above, the night matte is bigger but broader and the day matte smaller but narrower, it should be the opposite… (please tell me if this makes any sense to you guys :/ )

Another important shot is this one:

(This picture of the matte was missing a portion, so I completed it with screengrab from the movie)

In this close-up view the shape is even narrower. Again, as said above, perspective can explain the difference…
REM: I think the blueprint from "the essential guide to vehicles and vessels" book was drawn using this matte…

So, as the night matte seems to be the farther view of the city, we can assume perspective deformation is to a minimum. I choose to take that matte as a reference for my blueprint (however I used the close-up matte's better definition to draw the buildings portion, and a distant view (the Falcon arrival) for the end of the pylon):

Here's a comparison between the shots taking the height as reference, with my blueprint outlined in red:

About that:

vaderios said:
…
Also see some schematics about the two cloud cities

-Angel

vaderios said:

Ripplin said:

Why did they make Cloud City so different for the game? Just for aesthetics' sake?

This is an interesting pov Ripplin how a retro design can be modernized to our days.. meaning that the bulky one can be more slick and delicate. Plus the game version has the super structure be enormous compare the original one. just see how small are the buildings in the TFU one ;)
…

Actually Angel I think the picture you used for your mockups was actually an anamorphosed image to be used by the game engine which would wrap the picture around the 3D set…
As you can see the final Cloud City in the game is almost exactly the same as TESB:

About the superstructure being bigger than the movie version, I thing it may be just an impression, the POV si lower and closer here so the buildings portion is more affected by perspective and so smaller and less visible… So I think the slicker Cloud City was not intentional, but I agreed, it's kinda neat ;)

Well, here it is, tell me what you think…

(I'll talk about the size of that thing in another post, this one is big enough :p

About this bad "jedi rocks" music, it's interesting to know what was the idea behind the other musical numbers we don't hate (I think):

-for the cantina band: imagine aliens from the future finding old records of early jazz of the 30's and trying to play these strange music with their future instruments and musical culture…

-for the tune "Jabba baroque recital" it's the same idea applied to baroque music (obviously)

In doth case the model is old enough in our culture the be beyond old fashion, if you take my meaning.

For a new music to replace "jedi rocks" one could follow the same reasoning, just a though…

In fact I've just found out that this is described in page 78 of "365 days" the book of John knoll, which the nice hatch set behind the scene picture Ady posted is from, I just didn't remembered:

"Build on stage 2, the underside of Cloud City existed in two forms: a full-sized set of the antenna and hatch (Ady's picture), and a forced-perspective-arc model used for vista views. A number of the shots of the underside were taken with moving cameras, so a miniature was chosen over a matte painting to enable true perspective shifting."

Sometimes we just reinvent the wheel :/

BTW this book is a must have, lots of great behind the scene pictures…

ImperialFighter said:

Good call on the Falcon being the wrong distance from Luke though, which you just beat me to last night.  Glad to see that adywan is already going to fix that too.  :)

Anytime ;) hope you did not go into much work…

Young Imp, only when you'll be at peace with yourself, you will hear the force talk trough you, then you'll be able to see more clearly. Let me share my extraordinary wisdom with you.
got to get my pride back after my recent humiliation :p

If you leave aside Mark Hamill and his prop antenna you'll see that the backgrounds in all these shots are not different mattes but a model, the same in each shot, filmed differently, you can see it especially in these shots where the perspective is actually changing within the shot, as the camera is panning (note that Luke here is a stop motion animated miniature included in the model):

and this shot also shows it is a model:

Unfortunately there are a few shots that were similar so they did not re-shoot the model as often as they should. That's why you noticed some discrepancies.

For the sake of clarity I'll be naming this view with Luke on the left near the left Light "the reference shot":

....this differently angled matte that comes shortly afterwards....

In fact it is the same view of the model used in the reference shot, with a little more of the top. It's Luke who's misplaced here (if we take the reference shot as the good one).
(@Sluggo: this is also true in all the versions you just showed)
This can be improved by changing the background to have the left light near Luke. I could make a mockup if needed.

....it seems like these 2 lights are missing from the shot where the Falcon 'hovers' underneath Luke....or so I thought.... 

As for the missing lights, it's just that they go of frame it that shot because the camera needed to be lower to take the Falcon, and so (this time anyway) they lowered the filming of the model to have the correct perspective.

There are initially a few static matte shots identical to this one below (all shown in my page 664 post), where Luke is on the left of the frame, and the angle of the underside and the positions of the 'vanes' are exactly the same....

....until we eventually come to this one below, where there is now a  differently angled matte of the underside, and Luke is more to the right of the frame. 

Yes Luke is changing position in this shot too, while the background is still the same reference shot.
Obviously the goal here was to make room for the arrival of the Falcon, it makes sense from a filmaker's pov. So, let's get nit picky and change the undercity perspective for continuity sake. Here's a little mockup:

It's not that I don't remember, I just reviewed all this scene : /
but I see what you mean, we don't get to see the Falcon turning, it's more subtle, and so I skipped it, my vision must have been clouded by the dark side of the force ; )

Oh… yes, you're right… she does move away from the TIEs by the right?!?!

:/

I must be tired… :p

I'm not sure this hasn't already been pointed out, but the Falcon's rescue has some continuity problems.

n°1: in that shot the Falcon is coming to visual contact with Luke hanging the antenna:

but in the next shot the Falcon seem to be further away from Luke than the previous shot!:

n°2: during the rescuing TIEs are coming from the opposite side of the undercity, in front of the Falcon (TIE's are in the central view-port):

after retrieving Luke the falcon just flies away without any sign of turn around or crossing the path of TIEs and then is followed by the TIEs

Possible fix:

we could size up the Falcon arrival in this shot (as we wouldn't see anything if Luke was further away in the "visual contact" shot):

and make her turnaround to escape the TIEs and go back where she came from (Crossing the TIEs path seems more unlikely to me) something like that:

I'm not used to mockups, so it's a little rough, but you get the idea ;)

@ABC: impressive, most impressive :)

@Angel: I like it but maybe place it upper, don't make it too intrusive…

@Bingowings: I though about the same thing ;)

Sluggo said:

I'm wondering about the above still.  Is Luke outside or inside?  The set makes him look like he is walking inside of a hallway when he ought to be in an alley between buildings.

Now that you're pointing this out, there isn't any window frame or anything, it feels to me the corridor ends on some kind of terrace without real ending, but it doesn't mean it's outside, it could just be the open entrance of the building…

adywan said:

Angel, there's definitely some scale/ positioning problems with the hatch you have added. Maybe this pic will help (just click on the image to see it full size)

Wow, where the sith did you find this picture Ady?
I dig everywhere to find that kind of picture, buying every making of books, and I don't remember seeing that one!?!? It's awsome

(And Ady, I know you already stated you won't change this scene, so bear with us while we keep talking about it as it has started here…)

Monroville said:

…
I understand that this shot is done at an angle to show the entire door.. it doesn't necessarily mean that the entire underbelly of CC is angled like this.

Just to be clear, I wasn't pretending otherwise, even considering  the picture above it could still just be for technical reasons, I agree with you on that.
But on the other hand I do maintain the under-city is tilted (it's a pretty damn obvious fact, isn't it?) plus the tilting would solve Luke falling on the antenna.
So, everyone, wouldn't the whole scene be more consistent, logical and cool like this?:

savmagoett said:

…

…

adywan said:

It's a section of the vane. Sometimes things don't need to be made obvious to the audience. That was a huge problem, as i have said before, with the PT - everything was explained too much. But i've never believed that it was Lukes hand/saber becausse that would have been thrown out of the city a long time before and it certainly wouldn't have gone through the exact same shaft.  Luke lands pretty hard on the vane and part of it breaks off. I'm certainly not going to be making it look any clearer because it doesn't need it.

Even with that close-up shot as a proof, one could say that a piece of the vane is more logical than Luke's hand, not only because of the obvious delay problem, but also because Luke's chopped-of hand falling just at the same place Luke falls would feels to me like a bad joke, on the top of that, in the more dramatic scene in the whole saga?!?!

But I think that the matter could use some explanation nevertheless, the thing is puzzling (after all we all wandered at some point, even a 7 year old boy do (thx for that testimony Erikstormtrooper ;)

Maybe a subtle way to explain it could be to discretely put a similar piece to some of the other antenna around Luke and/or show something is broken on the antenna, some sparks and hanging wires at the tip maybe?

And BTW who said it's supposed to be a garbage exhaust? Sluggo's right it merely an vent, remember it's supposed to be a "tibana gas mine" so… "gaz"… "exhaust"… com'on guy's, don't let yourself be confused by the robot chicken ;)
and I don't find necessary to have a grate to be an exhaust vent, it doesn't disturb me, this is scifi after all…

as for why there is an antenna there, well maybe it's not an antenna, it could be some kind of sensor, monitoring the installation venting or something, anything that needs to be close to the exhaust, makes sense to me :/

in fact the shot could be considered "in favor" of the sloped undercity, thus partially solving the problem ;)

Something like that:

Forgive the crudety of this, I mockuped a mockup from Vaderios, so it's all Vaderios' fault :p

vaderios said:

Just testing some things of how can be done..

Considering this shot:

(note on that pic: See that the white balance is correct and set, but the walls are clearly redish. from that and only we can assume that bespin has red parts in the underbelly of the superstructure.)

I run some tests how this can be looked into the later shots..

So i ve made 3 examples.

The pivot was placed in Luke's antenna. so what you look is the same thing just rotated for more or less viewing of the details.

 

See and tell me

 

-Angel

Considering the shot just before, when Luke is falling, I think it should be the third one…

I imagine it's a WIP but you might place the thicker piece of the antenna (the attachment to the hatch). Also, I think the hatch itself is a truncated cone and there is a edge beyond the ring section with the lights, anyhow, I think some depth wouldn't hurt…

But… now that you're showing this, I'm not sure this is the thing to do, you see, seeing the hatch  make me feel that Luke should not have met the antenna by falling from there, or is it just me?

EDIT: oops too late :p

@ ImperialFighter:

That makes a lot of "convenient" of screen stern, don't you think.

Forgive me but for saying this but, aren't you going too far trying to make the shots acceptable regardless the common sense?

Personaly I think they made it all flat because it's easier to do, that's all.

And so it can be improved, the stern should be seen in some of the shots as well as the slope…

Let's face it guys… Star Wars IS cheesy!

:p

oops, I committed blasphemy… Nnnnnnnooooooooooooooo

Ha ha ha good one :D

something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAHYftmwY0U

no seriously… another idea? :/

vaderios said:

Save me savmagoett:D:D:D

Blueprint master :)

 

Show me what is accurate there

 

-Angel

 

Well… feed me with some HD captures of the city and I will "draw you the truth" :p

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

 Thanks for the feedback guys! I would agree with all of your improvement ideas...except maybe adding back the SE celebration around the galaxy shots. I don't hate the shots really...and I agree that it helps link the saga together visually...I don't know...it all happens so quickly...although that could probably be smoothed out with some editting.  Thanks! :)

You're welcome :)

We could put those SE celebration shots as an insert into the end credits, but it would be just not star wars :p

vaderios said:

Well considering that and taking reference the original schematics, when luke is on the antenna the bottom of cloud city(the top from our pov) should be tilted and not straight ;)

 

-Angel

Also also in some shots Cloud city seems to be a bit more squeezed compare the schematics. not a problem tho, it looks more good ;)

I wouldn't take this as an "original schematics", as for many things in star wars there never was any schematics made for cloud city, this drawing was made for a book "the essential guide to vehicles and vessels" so it's rather an illustration made to look like one but not really faithful to the original (those illustrators, however talented, can't afford to spend the time we fans spend on that kind of thing). So, generally speaking a lot of the blueprints in that book  are not faithful to the original or simply wrong…

RoccondilRinon said:

The trouble with both Yub Nub and its replacement is that they're so different, stylistically, from the rest of the score of the series. The result is that they call too much attention to themselves.

I completely agree with you RoccondilRinon, it needs to go more classic John Williams…

…

There was a mock-up I liked a while ago of an extended ending which used the concert version of the Force March included on the ROTS soundtrack album.
…
SSWR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUJL7c3-yro

Wow this is reeeeeally good, I mean compare to the original. Some very good ideas are putted here, Han's akward kiss back to leia removal, R2 & 3PO comment, the fleet going away in space (with more shots of Akbar, we all love that lobster man :) ), I know it repeating ESB but I just love that Falcon/Luke's x-wing flying apart shot and the hyperspace closing.
I like "the adventure continues" spirit of it, it fits well with the serial aspect of the saga. Overall it's simply "more Star Wars" great job!

I can think of some improvements though:
-keep the SE celebration around the galaxy shots, as it links the two trilogy
-shorten the Ewok celebration or enhance it with dialogs and chattering
-get Sebastian Shaw back of course
-Akbar's dialog is not great IMHO, change it  to something else, like dialog with the heroes for example
-get rid of Han's "Yaooooh" at the end, it doesn't work with his previous state of mind, and it's silly
-beware of the "neverending ending" effect (à la Lord Of the Ring), try to make it not too long ;)

anyway great ideas here SSWR1…

and another WIP:

these are attempts to make faithful representations with blueprint accuracy of the various falcon sets as they where built by ILM crew.
There was no ring corridor section in this set, but I put it anyway, for reference.

I know some of you will find the conical aspect surprising and illogical (it's ok, I thought that too at first) but I have evidence that leads to that conclusion, I'll post them and explain everything in the big (huge) Falcon analysis post…

So, meanwhile, what do think guys?

REM: the scale here is not the same as the previous post.

vaderios said:

Well considering that and taking reference the original schematics, when luke is on the antenna the bottom of cloud city(the top from our pov) should be tilted and not straight ;)
-Angel

yes I thought about the same thing, although there are possible camera angles which could give such POV, but a titled city underneath would be an improvement :)

you should try some mockups to see what it would look like ;)
maybe add the pylon in the frame…

It's been a while since I've fed this tread with some stuff so here's a little WIP of the ship I'm currently working on, I suppose I don't need to tell you what ship this is :)