leetwall31

The Prequels - Premise

The great Jedi war has ended. The Jedi vanquished the Sith, and the Galaxy is recovering from the war. It is now a time of peace.

HOWEVER

A new vote is up in the Republic to appoint the Jedi as the Republic’s Guardians of Peace. Some members of the Republic do not trust the Jedi still. From their point of view, the Jedi were strange wizards who brought their war unto the Republic. The average person had no quarrel with the Sith, so many blamed the Jedi for the war. But it was supposed to be the Galaxy’s last great war, so they went along with it.

The Jedi declared the Sith vanquished, but there was an investigation at the end to assure that all Sith were indeed destroyed. The committee could not prove this, but this was keep quiet. The Jedi basically ended the war prematurely. One Sith Lord managed to evade capture: Darth Plagueis. Using his powers, he was able to prolong his life but at a cost; he became horribly disfigured, but was able to maintain a normal appearance with the Force. His goal was to find a way through the Force to achieve immortality and wait for the Republic to fall for the Sith to rise again, but he could not do it alone. He needed an apprentice.

Episode 1 - The Force Awakens

Cut to modern day (1000 years later). The vote for the Jedi to become Guardians of the Republic is coming up. The vote is put on hold suddenly when a group of Neimoidians claim the Jedi are not Guardians of Peace because they failed to kill all of the Sith. Their proof? They’ve found one! Where? They’re not sure. Someone told them, and all they know is that he’s hiding on Naboo. The Jedi laugh at this and deny it. The Republic ignores it. The Neimoidians form a blockade around Naboo, and will not allow anyone to come or go. They shall prove to the Republic that the Jedi are liars, and they are wrong for wanting them to be our Guardians, by finding the Sith Lord on Naboo.

The Republic puts the vote on hold, and sends two Ambassadors to Naboo to negotiate release of the planet with the Neimoidians. The Neimoidians assure that they cannot be swayed, but allow the Ambassadors to come. The Ambassadors arrive, but are left alone in a room without the Neimoidians. The Neimoidians receive orders from their whistle blower to kill the Ambassadors to send the Republic a message that they are not to be taken as a joke. They do so.

HOWEVER

It turns out the Ambassadors are actually Jedi Knights! They were sent as Ambassadors to help the Neimoidians look for the Sith Lord just in case they were right. But now that the Neimoidians have tried to kill them, it is unlikely that will happen. The Jedi survive and seek to arrest the Viceroy for treason and attempted murder. They almost capture the Viceroy, but are forced to run away when they discover that the Viceroy have gathered a droid army to capture the Sith Lord. Understanding that the droid army is an invasion army to take over the planet, the Jedi stow aboard the army’s transport ships and go down to the Planet. They make their way towards the Capitol of Theed to warn the Queen of the Invasion.

Whilst on their journey towards Theed, the Jedi meet an interesting creature named Jar-Jar Binks. He’s a Gungan, or an underwater dweller. The Naboo and the Gungan’s do no get along, but Jar-Jar has hope for the two species. The Jedi Qui-Gon saves Jar-Jar’s life from the Invasion army. Mistaking Qui-Gon as a Nubian, Jar-Jar hatches a scheme to use the Jedi to help mend the sour feelings felt between his two peoples. He tricks the Jedi into following him under-water to the Gungan city of Ooth Gunga. He tells them it’s a shortcut to Theed. Upon their arrival, they’re arrested. The Jedi are also mistaken as Nubians, and Jar-Jar is arrested for violating the truce between Nubians and Gungan’s by bringing “enemies” into Gungan territory.

They are set on trial by the head Gungan, Boss Nass. He orders Jar-Jar to be executed for treason. The Jedi try to explain to him that they are not Nubians, but Jedi looking for a Sith Lord. The Boss’ hatred for Humans keeps him from listening and he orders them to be taken prisoner for bargaining power with the Naboo. Qui-Gon uses the Force to trick the Boss’ mind. The Boss’ decides to let the 3 go and provides them transport to Theed. They make their way to Theed, but arrive late due to their fiasco with the Gungans. The Droid Army has already taken Theed, and has taken the Queen prisoner. The Jedi rescue her and her aides, and hatch a plan to get her safely off of the Planet. They enlist the help of Fighter Pilots to attack one of the blockade ships, while the Queen, the Jedi and Jar-Jar escape in a separate ship towards the Republic capital, Coruscant. On the ship, they are introduced to a droid named R2-D2, who helps repair the ship just enough for them to escape.

HOWEVER

The ship was damaged during the escape, and they’re forced to land for repairs. They choose an outlying non-Republic planet called Tatooine. A poor, dusty place filled with forgotten people and pirates. Back on the Blockade ships, the Viceroy tell their Whistle blower that the Ambassadors were Jedi who broke into the Capital, stole the Queen and are heading to the Republic. The Whistle Blower’s name is unknown. He tells the Viceroy not to worry. He has sent an assassin trained to kill Jedi to find the lost ship. The Assassin’s name is Darth Maul.

Back on Tatooine, Qui-Gon heads into town with Padme (a representative for the Queen) to search for a new engine for the ship. He finds a dealer named Watto. Watto is a slave owner who deals in spare parts. One of his slaves catches the eyes of Padme, a young boy named Anakin Skywalker. Luckily for Qui-Gon, Watto is the only dealer in town with the correct engine part. Unfortunately Qui-Gon can’t buy it because his Republic Credits are no good on Tatooine, a non-Republic planet. Qui-Gon tries a mind trick on Watto for the part, but that doesn’t work either! Watto’s mind is not weak. One has to be smart and wise in order to survive on Tatooine this long. Qui-Gon leaves in frustration, to the dismay of Anakin and Padme.

On their way back, a violent sandstorm picks up, preventing the troupe from returning to the ship. Anakin recognizes the group on his way home from Watto’s shop, and offers them shelter in his slave hut. There they meet his mother Shmi, and C-3PO: a protocol droid he is assembling for his Mom from spare parts he finds in Watto’s shop. At night, Anakin tells them about his adventures in Pod races. He has a gift for foresight, which helps him predict maneuvers in races, helping him win. Watto often places him the races and uses gambling make money off of him. Anakin tells Qui-Gon that they could bet the parts for the Naboo ship in race, and he could win them for him. Qui-Gon takes this bet to Watto, but secretly bets Anakin’s freedom as well. Watto agrees, since Anakin’s win is highly improbable. Qui-Gon recognizes Anakin’s foresight abilities as powers of the Force. These certain powers are only common in very powerful Jedi who have trained for a long time. Qui-Gon takes a blood sample of Anakin to find his Midi-Chlorian count, which is unusually high for average Jedi. Midi-Chlorians are microscopic life forms that live in the blood cells of all living things. They transpose the powers of the Force to the beings who learn to hone them. Anyone can become a Jedi, as long as they learn to listen to the Midi-Chlorians in their blood. Anakin however, is already extremely communicative with his Midi-Chlorians, without any training at all. Where do the Midi-Chlorians receive their powers of the Force? Some say it is the Will of the Force, but it remains unknown.

Meanwhile, Darth Maul lands on Tatooine and begins his search for the Jedi. The Podrace happens, and Anakin is able to win using his Force abilities. He is able to look into the future and see how to best his opponent Sebulba in the final lap. Qui-Gon wins the parts for the ship, and informs Anakin that he is free, and can come with Qui-Gon to become a Jedi. Anakin is happy at first, but then becomes upset once he realizes his Mom cannot come and will remain a slave. After a tearful goodbye, Anakin leaves Shmi, promising to come back one day and free her. On their way out of town, Qui-Gon and Anakin realize they are being followed by Darth Maul. Maul attack Qui-Gon and the two duel with their lightsabers. Anakin and Qui-Gon barely escape, leaving Maul behind on the planet as they jump to hyperspace. Anakin is introduced to Qui-Gon’s Jedi apprentice, Obi-Wan Kenobi. On their way to Coruscant, Padme and Anakin bond. Anakin misses his mother, whilst Padme is missing home (she’s never been out of the palace before). Both are homesick. Anakin gifts her a necklace his mother gave him. The necklace prevents you from feeling alone or homesick.

The crew arrive in Coruscant. The Jedi head to the Jedi Temple to convene with the Jedi Council. Padme and the Queen head off to her Senate chambers to prepare for the session of Congress. At the Jedi Council meeting, Qui-Gon reports that no presence of the Dark Sith Lords was felt on Naboo. However they did encounter a lightsaber wielding assassin on their departure from Tatooine. Qui-Gon’s only conclusion is that he is perhaps a Sith lord. The Council dismiss this and claim that is not enough evidence to assume he is. Qui-Gon brings up Anakin, and demands that the Council convene with him. He tells them Anakin might fulfill an ancient prophecy that tells of a Jedi who will bring balance to the Force. After hearing his outrageous claims about Sith Lords, the council annoyingly agrees to see the boy. The council is beginning to wonder if they sent the right Jedi on this mission.

Congress convene’s, and the Queen meets up with Senator Palpatine, their Naboo representative. He explains that the current Chancellor Vallorum is highly unlikely to provide security for the Queen to fight the Droid Army and win her planet back. He’s too desperate to uphold peace, he’ll ignore an act of violence to prevent war. He suggests calling for a vote of no confidence in his place, forcing the Senate to elect a replacement Chancellor till the end of his term. The plan is to nominate Palpatine, who will act in the best interest of Naboo’s security. During the session of Congress, the Queen pleas her case to the Senate. She tells them Naboo has been invaded by the Neimoidians and they have a droid army, and they will not relinquish control of the Planet until they find the Sith Lord. The Senate finds a way to ignore her plea. Instead of providing security volunteers and supplies, they instead vote for a delegation to be sent to investigate the matter. The Queen is outraged. Now is not the time for diplomacy, this is an act of War! She calls for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum. The Senate rallies behind her and demand a new vote. Frustrated, the Queen decides to return home and fight the Viceroy herself.

Anakin is brought before the Jedi Council. His abilities of foresight are remarkable, but Yoda senses fear in him and they decide not to train him due to his age. He is too old to teach. The ways of the Jedi cannot be imprinted upon someone older 14. He will argue and rebel. Qui-Gon is outraged. If he is to fulfill the prophecy, then he must be trained! He decides to subvert the Council’s orders and take Anakin on as his own Padawan learner. The Council refuse to allow it, but it doesn’t stop Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan becomes jealous at this, especially since Qui-Gon is almost done training him. The Council tells them to forget Anakin right now, their mission is to find the Sith Lord. They send the Jedi on a new mission: return home with the Queen and draw out her attacker. Find him and arrest him, then we can find out if he is indeed a Sith Lord.

The Jedi, the Queen, Jar-Jar and Anakin return to Naboo. The Queen enlists the help of Jar-Jar. She wishes to reach out to the Gungans for help. For the first time in centuries, the Naboo wish to find peace with their neighbors. They find the Gungans on the run from the Droid Army in the swamps. She pleads with the Boss Nass to help their cause. They both live on the same Planet, and they can only defeat the droids if they all stand up together as Nubians and fight back. Boss Nass refuses to help the Queen, he doesn’t believe her. He thinks she wants to use the Droid Army to destroy all the Gungans by sending them into a hopeless battle. He doesn’t trust the Humans. Padme steps forward and gives him a reason to trust the Humans. She reveals to him that she is actually the Queen, and that the Queen to her right is a decoy. If she will trust her life with him, she can assure him he can do the same. Boss Nass agrees to help the Humans! They plan for battle. The Gungans will form an army outside of the city of Theed to draw out the Droid Army. The Queen and the Jedi will sneak into Theed to capture the Viceroy. Fighter pilots will take to the skies and destroy the Droid control ship to disable the Droid army.

The battle commences! The Gungans begin their fight, whilst the Queen and the Jedi sneak into the throne. The pilots make their way to their ships and fly off into space. On their way to the Throne room, Darth Maul appears and the Jedi engage him in a duel. The Queen and the security volunteers find another way to get to the Throne Room. Anakin jumps into a ship and uses the blaster cannons to fend of the Droids from the Queen. Unfortunately the ship is on automatic pilot and he’s taken up into space to fight with the other fighter squadrons agains the Droid control ship. Using his powers of insight, Anakin is able to find a small hole in the Control ships shield and enters inside it’s hanger bay. He destroys the ship from the inside and escapes with the other fighter pilots. The Droid Army falls down, defeated and the Gungans celebrate. Darth Maul unfortunately kills Qui-Gon Jinn. Obi-Wan bests Maul in the duel and kills the Sith Lord. Qui-Gon’s dying words to Obi-Wan are a sincere apology and a request for Obi-Wan to train Anakin. The Queen and others arrest the Viceroy and the day is won! Naboo is free again, and the Sith have been permanently vanquished from the Galaxy.

Senator Palpatine is elected Chancellor, and he returns to Naboo to celebrate. At Qui-Gon’s funeral, Jedi Master Mace Windu discusses with Yoda how unfortunate the Maul could not be captured, and how blind the Jedi order has been to ignore Qui-Gon. But who was Maul? Where did he come from? Who trained him? Is his master still alive? The Galaxy may not be rid of the Sith just yet. Obi-Wan begs Yoda to let him train Anakin. Yoda refuses because a more experienced master is needed. Obi-Wan won’t let up, and Yoda finally agrees. Your apprentice, Skywalker, will be.

A celebration is held in the Capital of Theed. The Boss Nass and the Gungans parade towards the Queen’s palace and she offers them a gift of her appreciation. PEACE, shouts the Boss, and the planet celebrates as once divided peoples are now united under a common banner. All is well in a Galaxy far, far away.

Closing notes on Episode 1

Palpatine is the Sith Lord on Naboo, even though he is introduced off world to the audience. He is also the Whistle Blower in the Senate. He kinda told the Neimoidians the truth…the Sith Lord comes from Naboo. He feeds their fear of the Sith still existing to get them to do his biding. He orchestrates this whole scheme to feed the Viceroy’s fear into acting Violently against his people. He knows that the Republic won’t respond with violence since there has been a thousand years of peace, and he’ll use this to vote Vallorum out of Office.

HOWEVER

Palpatine plans for the Queen to stay on Coruscant. He planned to get elected, and send Security Volunteers to Naboo to fight the Droids, and he would allow the Viceroy to escape. If the Viceroy were caught, then Palpatine’s secret could be at stake. The Queen decides to go home and fight them herself, and she arrests the Viceroy, to the dismay of Palpatine. Palpatine was Darth Plagueis’ apprentice. They both found ways to live longer over the thousand year period (both are horribly disfigured, as the audience will see soon enough). Palpatine grew impatient and argued with his master. Waiting for the Republic to die out is pointless, we need to act now to take out revenge. Plagueis refuses, he can wait. Palpatine kills Plagueis, and plans the Sith’s revenge. Palpatine hatches this scheme and begins to train Darth Maul. He tells the Neimoidians that Maul is an assassin. But he is a Force user as the Jedi discover, therefore a Sith Lord. Palpatine doesn’t train Maul enough though, because he plans for the Jedi to kill him instead of him being captured. In the end, Maul was just a ruse to feed the Republic and the Neimoidian’s fears about the Sith Lords still existing.

I cannot argue with that!

RogueLeader said:

I’m glad you like that quote! I would definitely suggest checking out the Tao Te Ching, if you’re into that kind of stuff. It obviously can apply to life, but you can apply to Star Wars and the Force, too.

I definitely just might! I’ve always loved Buddhist philosophy. But I’ve always kinda been hesitant to indulge myself in it because I find that I can figure all their teachings out if I just practice meditation regularly. I can kinda develop my own philosophy about life too.

RogueLeader said:

Regarding the midi-chlorian quote:

The quote from the 70s, as it is in Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars goes:

”It is said certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells.”

But, George had Rinzler edit that quote when he wrote his book, so the original quote would’ve been like this.

”It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different.”

So no, midi-chlordans was not an original idea.

Are you sure tho? I mean, don’t get me wrong, but the idea is still there, he just hadn’t come up with a word for it yet.

Thanks for the quote btw!!

RogueLeader said:

The Journal of the Whills was originally a framing device for the early drafts of Star Wars, but George didn’t really expound on what the Whills were. His original idea was that R2 at some point in the future would recount these tales to a Whill, who I guess was a physical being that kept a journal. Which, to me, makes me wonder how that would fit with the whole microscopic world George was talking about in the more recent interview with James Cameron.

That’s an interesting idea of R2 telling a Whill the story, but I don’t think George kept that idea because the Whills kinda go back to the “inter-dimensional” beings when they appeared at the end of the Clone Wars show. R2 definitely couldn’t meet one of them.

RogueLeader said:

And don’t worry man, I have a feeling future films or shows will dive deeper into the Force, and maybe even IX will, who knows? There’s so much content ahead, the Force will inevitably be explored more.

I hope so! Demystify the Force!

RogueLeader said:

You’re good, man! I guess we get a little aggressive sometimes over these opinions, even me. I totally get why people don’t like the new movies. I guess I just want to share why I like the movie because I hope other people can see what I see, and find a way for them to enjoy it as well.

From my own experience, I saw TLJ with a couple of friends my age, and my mom, my dad and my uncle, who have all been Star Wars fans since 77.
Most of my friends, some of whom were big fans during the prequels like me, really didn’t like it. My cousin, who is my age, did, he is a Star Wars fan but never was hardcore about it.

One of my friends who went with us is Japanese, and he really enjoyed it. He likes the Star Wars films, but he is more of a big film buff in general. Not just American classics but all kinds of foreign films and avant garde, obscure pictures. He knows more about films and film theory than most people I know. He really dug into the themes and such, and felt the movie had more to say than most blockbusters. I think he preferred it over TFA.

My parents and my uncle loved it. My uncle actually got really annoyed by some of my friends because he felt they had very surface-level reasons for not liking it, and felt they couldn’t admit they were disappointed that things they were expecting to happen, or wanted to happen, didn’t happen.

My sister and brother-in-law saw it later and loved it, but I’d say they’re casual fans too.

I actually saw TFA with my friends too, and one of them had read a whole leaked synopsis of the movie before he saw it, so the whole ride to the theater (which was like an hour) he was saying how bad it was going to be. Just priming us and shit. None of us really wanted to hear that. He sat behind me and I could hear him every once and awhile chiming it negatively. And as the credits rolled he was just talking crap.

This was the first saga film to come out in 10 years. I was sitting with my dad. Star Wars has always been a good part of our relationship, and I was just wanting to enjoy this experience with him. I was so annoyed by my friend, I turned around and said “Fuck you.”

He immediately shut up, and I felt so bad. I’d never really confronted my friend that way before. We got outside and I apologized and he did too, and for the rest of the trip back we had a civil conversation about the movie, good and bad.

I love my friends but for IX I’m just going to see it with my family.

Anyway, that’s my experience.

What a great story man! That was pretty hard-core what you did to your friend (I know what it’s liked to be yelled at in a movie theater lol). You guys kinda made up tho which is nice.

Your Japanese friend reminded me of myself, because I too enjoyed the themes in the movie the way he did, I just wish Rian Johnson went all the way with them. The seeds were there, but in the end they were still only seeds. That’s me tho, I followed this movie in post-production too much. I did the same thing with the Dark Knight Rises, and I wound up feeling disappointed too. Maybe I should stop doing that. Maybe that’s why I didn’t like it.

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft?

No. Funny enough, this was just discussed on the site very recently: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017

I’ll take your word for it, but that link didn’t really make sense to me. Do you have maybe a quick quote from that thread I could read instead?

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

That’s the point tho. If there was an order of people who used the Force and studied it for over a thousand years, they figured out what it was. I don’t think the Force is life necessarily, I think it’s supposed to be a by-product of life. It’s an energy that’s given off by living cells (Midi-Chlorians). Jedi/Sith harness that energy for their own use. That’s all we’re saying here. The Force isn’t life, and it’s not a religion. Outsiders call the Jedi a religion. It’s not, it’s a real practice. I think people who meditate can relate. Meditation is considered a religious practice, but the people who do it know that’s it’s really not, it’s a great mind hack to ease your temper and stress.

DominicCobb said:

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

Lol I get where you’re coming from. But I digress: it’s a newer and more interesting trilogy than what we’re getting now. I think the real reason they didn’t go for it was because George’s trilogy probably officially ended the Star Wars story. Wasn’t Star Wars a story told in a Journal by the Whills in the first place? If they’re gone, then there’s no one left to keep telling us the stories.

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft? I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

DominicCobb said:

I can’t really speak to that. I love it because in my mind it is a good movie first, and a great Star Wars movie second (I also consider myself a film fan first and a Star Wars fan second). I also wouldn’t categorize my friends who like it less as “ordinary people”/non-Star Wars fans. In fact, the reasons they gave for disliking it were all things that they felt didn’t fit in a Star Wars movie, in their minds (there were arguments had, I assure you).

I haven’t really talked about it with non-friends/“ordinary people,” so I’d have to think about that. I know after it came out I talked with a coworker who thought I’d hate it because I was a Star Wars fan and there was the backlash and whatever. She liked it. Don’t know if she’s even seen all the Star Wars movies.

Thanks for that info!

DominicCobb said:

Oh, I’m sorry. I’m, what was the word you used? “Silly.” That’s right. My bad.

No man I’m sorry, I’m the one who’s being silly. You need to help me out, cause you’re the lucky guy who figured out how to like Episode 8! I’m so jealous, cause I wanted to love it so much!

I think we’re getting waaaaaay off topic here btw lol

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

This feels very narrow-minded to me, that you would lose respect for a person just because they like a certain movie. At least your being honest, I guess.

You know what, you’re right man. It was narrow-minded of me. DominicCobb, I’m sorry about that. Losing respect over something like this is silly. I was wrong for that.

I don’t even know you man; I’m the one who’s being silly!

RogueLeader said:

Awhile back there was a rumor that there is some kind of MacGuffin the characters will be after, and I speculated that it could be the Journal of the Whills, and maybe we would learn something about them or the Force indirectly through that. It would be a nice way to tie that original idea into the last Saga film, while not being too out there for general audiences.

I like this idea! Introducing the Whills would open up the world more.

RogueLeader said:

It would be cool to learn more about the Whills and such, but I can understand their hesitation to approach that subject, because audiences, and especially fans, were really critical of the midichlorians as a concept back in the day (and it still is something a lot of people choose to forget). I don’t think people want the Force overly demystified, and honestly neither do I. I think how the Force works should be left up to interpretation to a certain extent, and the more you explain it the less flexible it becomes.

I hear ya man, and that’s why I kinda hate Disney. They’re not choosing the brave storytelling route. Whether or not the fans like Midi-Chlorians, they’re real and a part of the Saga. They were there since the first draft too, and I personally never had a problem with them. Keeping the Force mysterious limits the story. If it’s always mysterious (which it’s not anymore) we can never learn and grow. So there’s no story to tell really. And why wouldn’t we want to figure it out? The Force is like the coolest thing ever! Why wouldn’t we want to study it and figure out how it works, and where it comes from? The answers to those questions can open up a whole new world to us, a world beyond the galaxy far, far away.

RogueLeader said:

I compare it to Taoism a lot. The first chapter of the Tao Te Ching basically says, “The Tao that can be named is not truly the Tao.” Basically, trying to understand or quantify the Way universe works is essentially a fruitless effort, and you really have to surrender yourself to it in order to be in-step with the Universe, if that makes sense. It’s like faith, and that comes back around to how George originally meant for the Force to be a meta-religion that can stand in for any religious faith or belief system.

That’s the greatest quote I’ve read all week. Thanks for that!

But what I think George was going for was making the Force a by-product of the Midi-Chlorians which are controlled by the Whills. The lifeforms in the galaxy see it as religious power of course tho because it’s beyond their understanding.

RogueLeader said:

It would be cool for them to explore the Whills more in some other form of media, but maybe it was the right call to not overexplain it in the Saga films. For me, I would just like for them to possibly address this apparent cycle of Darkness and light that exists in the universe, and how Force ghost Luke, Rey and potentially Ben Solo will play a part in dealing with it. Which I think is subtle enough for audiences to understand and apply it to real-world issues in their own lives.

I don’t think it was the right call. I’m the kind of person who likes to break new ground with every step. I just wish Star Wars would be intelligent again is all. It’s too mainstream for that now, we have to reject the creator’s stories so we can stay commercial. sigh

I think George’s idea was that reason why we have cycles of dark and light is because of the Whills; they’re feeding off of us through the force and they’re causing these conflicts so they can stay alive, using us like puppets. But that’s too intelligent.

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

I get what your saying, but anecdotal information isn’t really evidence. Many of the people I know who saw the movie liked it, and I read a lot of good opinions about the movie. Does that make me right?

All opinions are anecdotal. That kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion. But damn, I really wanna find some people who liked it now. I knew nobody who did.

Since you seem to care, for what it’s worth I know no one who didn’t like it. Have a couple friends who disliked certain aspects, but that’s as harsh as it gets. Most of us are baffled by the backlash.

Interesting. Would you describe your friends as Star Wars fans?

Yes. In fact I’d say that the people who like it less are the people who are less of fans. I like it more than anyone I know personally and am also the biggest SW fan I know. If that helps with your research.

That makes sense. See none of the people I asked were Star Wars fans. I think only the big fans like this movie, mainly because it’s just Star Wars. If people who don’t really care about Star Wars don’t like it, then that says a lot, because they’re judging it on the basis of whether or not it’s a good movie by itself. I think their opinion matters more. Star Wars fans will love it (duh), but what will ordinary people think?

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

Speaking for the people who think it’s a silly movie, it comes off like fast food. It’s just so obviously fake, processed and insincere. We can’t help but look at the people who defend it as kinda silly themselves, because to us it’s just such an obviously poor attempt to be what it is. But most people may miss that because it’s packaged in a specific way that averts you from it’s flaws. It doesn’t expect you to think, and if you did, you’d recognize that it’s not good too.

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

I am deeply disappointed that I have lost your respect. I don’t know what I will ever do without it. Maybe someday I can be as smart as you.

That was really immature.

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

I get what your saying, but anecdotal information isn’t really evidence. Many of the people I know who saw the movie liked it, and I read a lot of good opinions about the movie. Does that make me right?

All opinions are anecdotal. That kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion. But damn, I really wanna find some people who liked it now. I knew nobody who did.

Since you seem to care, for what it’s worth I know no one who didn’t like it. Have a couple friends who disliked certain aspects, but that’s as harsh as it gets. Most of us are baffled by the backlash.

Interesting. Would you describe your friends as Star Wars fans?

Speaking for the people who think it’s a silly movie, it comes off like fast food. It’s just so obviously fake, processed and insincere. We can’t help but look at the people who defend it as kinda silly themselves, because to us it’s just such an obviously poor attempt to be what it is. But most people may miss that because it’s packaged in a specific way that averts you from it’s flaws. It doesn’t expect you to think, and if you did, you’d recognize that it’s not good too.

It’s fine that you like it and have your own opinion about it, but it’s just that you lose our respect a bit, and seem less credible to us about what makes a good movie a good movie.

RogueLeader said:

I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

Yeah this aspect of the lore is interesting to me. That’s why I wish they would’ve done George’s original sequel trilogy idea, because they would’ve delved more into this. The Force is an energy field of life, and the midi-chlorians in our blood help us communicate with it (or something like that), and the Whills feed off of the Force and can control it. So they sound like a parasite. I’ve always been fascinated with the Whills since I’ve seen them mentioned in the very first Star Wars draft. Who/what are they? Are they good/evil? We’ll never know now it seems 😕

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

I get what your saying, but anecdotal information isn’t really evidence. Many of the people I know who saw the movie liked it, and I read a lot of good opinions about the movie. Does that make me right?

All opinions are anecdotal. That kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion. But damn, I really wanna find some people who liked it now. I knew nobody who did.

I think a sequel is a good sequel if it evokes the essence of it’s predecessor and also pushes the story forward into new territory (which Episode 8 hardly did at all).

RogueLeader said:

leetwall31 said:

No one is posting videos month-after-month about how AWESOME Episode 8 was. The only people who do that are Die-Hard-Fans, and they’re not saying it was AWESOME. They keep doing this month-after-month because they care about Star Wars the most, so Disney should listen to them more.

“You know it’s-”

That’s funny

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I might get to the rest of your post later, but that one really jumped out at me.

Probably not worth it my man.

Dominic, why are you on a discussion forum if your mind is already made up?

Not the issue, I just mean to say these points have been debated ad nauseam here and elsewhere.

I understand, but don’t assume since I’m making the same point I won’t be able to say it in a new way that might convince you. Labeling things before you look at then will prevent you from learning new things. Always stay open minded.

nl0428 said:

leetwall31 said:
That’s good advice man, to all of us. Personally, I just wish they had made George’s sequel trilogy instead. I don’t like this retreading they’re doing in the new movies. George’s trilogy sounds so crazy and new, so I wish we could’ve had that instead. Then they could’ve done this retreading plot line.

I believe that this is a technique that George Lucas had for the saga that Abrams and Johnson are continuing. Here’s what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7ZW1gtCljs

Oh I totally agree with the poetry stuff. That was genius. I meant retreading in the sense that the stories similar. I’m fine with things happening in a similar fashion, but not when the exact same story with different characters is being told. That’s just pointless.

I don’t think the same story is being told. I thought The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi felt different. They did follow a similar act structure to the original trilogy in some ways, but I never felt like I was watching the same story all over again.

The Force Awakens feels like classic Star Wars, that’s why we loved it; we had forgotten that feeling. And I still disagree man. Let’s look at the story parallels, maybe you’ll see what I see:

Original Trilogy

• The good guys are small and weak, the bad guys are powerful and strong
• Villain is an ex-Jedi who turned bad and murdered the other Jedi
• The villain’s master is an old, frail and powerful leader
• Droid has McGuffin file that everyone is after
• Orphan on desert planet gets swept up on an adventure
• Character from previous trilogy dies
• There is a Planet Destroying Weapon that is destroyed
• Orphan is trained by an eccentric hermit on remote planet who refuses at first
• The Villain wants the Oprhan to join him
• Eccentric hermit dies on remote planet
• The Villain kills his master

Sequel Trilogy

• The good guys are small and weak, the bad guys are powerful and strong
• Droid has McGuffin file that everyone is after
• Villain is an ex-Jedi who turned bad and murdered the other Jedi
• The villain’s master is an old, frail and powerful leader
• Orphan on desert planet gets swept up on an adventure
• Character from previous trilogy dies
• There is a Planet Destroying Weapon that is destroyed
• Orphan is trained by an eccentric hermit on remote planet who refuses at first
• The Villain wants the Oprhan to join him
• Eccentric hermit dies on remote planet
• The Villain kills his master

These are major plot points, only differences are in characters, location and time. They are trying to tell us a new story, they’re trying really hard. But it’s not.

ChainsawAsh said:

leetwall31 said:

Every Star Wars Episode makes a ton of money, it doesn’t mean anything.

Solo didn’t and now the whole idea of standalones are on hold. It does mean something.

Solo’s not an Episode.

ChainsawAsh said:

I might get to the rest of your post later, but that one really jumped out at me.

Haha I don’t blame you man, it’s late. Rest up for the fight -ding ding-

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I might get to the rest of your post later, but that one really jumped out at me.

Probably not worth it my man.

Dominic, why are you on a discussion forum if your mind is already made up?

ChainsawAsh said:

The movie was a massive critical and commercial success.

It pretty much only made half of Episode 7’s box office. I’d imagine a lot of people didn’t want to see it a 2nd time; it’s not an exciting or really interesting movie, it’s a bit of a bore. Rotten Tomatoes is not the critics’ consensus btw. To get a broader view, I like to read both RT and MetaCritic. Also I’m beginning to wonder if critics on RT are getting paid to give certain movies a pass these days.

ChainsawAsh said:

They don’t give a shit about a portion of the fan base loudly complaining on the internet.

I really hope that’s not true. And it’s not the just the internet. Majority of my friends (whom aren’t Star Wars fans in the first place) really didn’t care for it. I can’t recall hearing any good opinions on it the time it came out. It was always “eh”.

Remember the last time the fans complained on the internet? It wasn’t hogwash. The prequels weren’t great, and they were upset about that, because they wanted them to be great. They’re complaining again because they think the same about Episode 8. No one is posting videos month-after-month about how AWESOME Episode 8 was. The only people who do that are Die-Hard-Fans, and they’re not saying it was AWESOME. They keep doing this month-after-month because they care about Star Wars the most, so Disney should listen to them more. Even Mark Hamill isn’t a fan of this movie, and he was a fan before all of us.

ChainsawAsh said:

If the majority people really hated it that much, the home video sales wouldn’t have been as good as they were.

I always found that fact to be weird. Keep in mind most people don’t even buy Blu-Rays these days. It’s not a very popular market.

ChainsawAsh said:

TLJ made a ton of money. That’s all that matters to the studio. It’s a business, after all.

Every Star Wars Episode makes a ton of money, it doesn’t mean anything. And I’m aware Disney is all about the money, which is why when I heard they bought LucasFilm back in 2012, I felt a little annoyed. We don’t need people milking Star Wars, and I know that’s all they’re out to do. If they weren’t, then they would’ve made George’s original sequel trilogy. They wouldn’t even risk that, so it shows they’re quite cowardly when it comes to story telling. They’re not interested in continuing the story for the story’s sake, they’re interested in doing it because it’ll get them more money.

ChainsawAsh said:

Rian made them money and was easy to work with (notice how TLJ is the only post-Disney movie without a ton of behind the scenes drama, reshoots, and crew shakeups). Of course they’re going to give him more movies.

Good point.

nl0428 said:

leetwall31 said:

nl0428 said:

Everyone has their own thoughts and opinions, but I also think it’s important to not set yourself up for disappointment by marrying yourself to theories and speculations that you’ve come up with. J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson have been telling this story, and I believe that by the time Episode IX comes out, people will either understand the story/trilogy, or still not be fans.

That’s good advice man, to all of us. Personally, I just wish they had made George’s sequel trilogy instead. I don’t like this retreading they’re doing in the new movies. George’s trilogy sounds so crazy and new, so I wish we could’ve had that instead. Then they could’ve done this retreading plot line.

I believe that this is a technique that George Lucas had for the saga that Abrams and Johnson are continuing. Here’s what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7ZW1gtCljs

Oh I totally agree with the poetry stuff. That was genius. I meant retreading in the sense that the stories similar. I’m fine with things happening in a similar fashion, but not when the exact same story with different characters is being told. That’s just pointless.

RogueLeader said:

They might make animated adaptations of the films for very young kids, but they will never remake any movie in the Skywalker Saga.

They will, a long time from now. They won’t remake individual movies, but they’ll remake the whole saga. This series has a great story, that hasn’t been done properly.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

You asked what Disney sees in him. They see a man who makes movies people want to see. If you can’t understand how this translates to Disney wanting to hire him to make movies, I don’t know what else to say.

“They see a man who makes movies people want to see”…before the man who made movies people want to see finished his movie, a movie that ended up dividing half the fanbase in a similar fashion to the prequels. They judged him too soon. Big mistake.

Here’s what really happened: Disney assumed the audience was going to love this movie, but they turned out wrong. A good portion of the audience, does not. I don’t think they understand who the fanbase is and what they want. They assume they do, but they really don’t.

If they were interested in continuing the Star Wars legacy/lore for story’s sake, they would’ve made George Lucas’ trilogy. But they didn’t, they’re rehashing old stories that have worked in the past. They’re only interested in “continuing” the lore for money’s sake.

DuracellEnergizer said:

leetwall31 said:

nl0428 said:

What about Kylo Ren? He’s a part of the family.

I guess…but it’s only on his Mother’s side. And worst of all, he murdered his own father, and attempted to kill his own mother. Why should we care what happens to this dude? What are the odds the family even wants him back? They seem to be down for just killing him now. Episode 9 has to answer these questions, and like I said, it’s gonna be tough.

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

What about Kylo Ren? He’s a part of the family.

Kylo will probably die. And he has no heir.

I’m interested to see what they do with him. If they make him repent, I hope it’s not done in a cheesy way. He needs to be punished for what he’s done, and lifetime in jail seems fair. I have this really bad feeling he’s gonna go good, he’s gonna find love somehow, and he’ll be forgiven for everything.

Like grandfather, like grandson.

Not really

rodneyfaile said:

I don’t think I’ll live to see the end of Star Wars, so I’ll take all I can get before I die.

It depends on how old you are. I think I will. This Disney thing will not last long.

SilverWook said:

Remakes are not happening.

They gotta. Over half of the Star Wars movies aren’t considered good. They’re gonna remake them at some point in the very distant future. Probably beyond our lifetimes. It’s too good of a story to squander.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

leetwall31 said:

I really want to know what it was that LucasFilm saw in Rian Johnson that made them believe he could do this. He has good story ideas, sometimes(they’re kind of hit or miss). But I find his execution style to be all wrong. He’ll come up with an amazing idea, but then play it off a certain way in the film that destroys it. He’s not a great story teller that respects mythology and cultural impact. He’s more of a conventional film maker, with quirks. That’s not enough really to helm a Star Wars trilogy.

Have you even looked at the TLJ box office numbers? Just because you’re didn’t like the movie doesn’t mean his work has no appeal for others.

No one looks back on money. People do look back on art however. Where is this money going? What do these box office #s lead to? Somehow in 5 years, all the money the movie made will be gone. It’ll be spent somehow on another project. But what about the movie itself, and the story it’s trying to tell us? That’s what we should wonder about, because that’s what lasts. No one cares about or remembers how much money an artist made for their paintings. What matters 100 years later is if the painting was good or not.

Also, they gave Rian the new trilogy before the movie came out. There were no box office numbers, so I don’t know why you’re brining that up. And I didn’t say I didn’t like Episode 8 btw.

nl0428 said:

Everyone has their own thoughts and opinions, but I also think it’s important to not set yourself up for disappointment by marrying yourself to theories and speculations that you’ve come up with. J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson have been telling this story, and I believe that by the time Episode IX comes out, people will either understand the story/trilogy, or still not be fans.

That’s good advice man, to all of us. Personally, I just wish they had made George’s sequel trilogy instead. I don’t like this retreading they’re doing in the new movies. George’s trilogy sounds so crazy and new, so I wish we could’ve had that instead. Then they could’ve done this retreading plot line.

RogueLeader said:

Well it looks like to me they are pushing the standalone film ideas to the streaming service as multi-episode shows, and for actual movies it will just be multiple-film series, or trilogies, like B&W’s project and Rian’s trilogy apparently are. I personally doubt we will get anymore anthology films on the silver screen in the near future.

That’s a much much better idea. The anthology movies play like tv movies anyway.