_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
...now you have *just* to do the full de-specialized edition... (-^,)
haha I can already hear people picking up their pitchforks...
No, there is already one despecialized edition to rule them all and it will have no other master ;)
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Difference is subtle, but I spotted it in previous comparisons... (^^,)
Maybe a really-little-tiny decrease in saturation in the 'normal' version could be OK, but as it is now, it is not mandatory IMHO.
After much thought I just went ahead and did an encode of the whole of Star Wars with slightly less saturation than the normal settings just to check how it looks and to my surprise the whole film just looks 'right' now, just how i'd imagine the film print looks in terms of saturation, when with the previous normal settings it just looked like a desaturated version of the 'technicolor' release. This is 100% what i'm going to use now for the normal settings. Thanks for that little nudge in the right direction. :)
I also tried boosting the saturation of the technicolor settings just to see what it looked like and it was a bust, the colours are just too strong, so i'll be sticking with the technicolor settings I have. I now have my normal and technicolour settings finalised so I can finally leave the labyrinth that is regrading Star Wars and move on! Thank God!
frank678 said:
I'm finding it hard to see the difference on the esb clips at the moment. I think I may have melted my brain (!)
haha that can happen when you spend too much time looking at regrades, I speak from experience! When that happens I usually leave that film for a week or two and do other things. In your case I hope it won't take you so long to recover haha
frank678 said:
kk650 said:
I've got to be honest with you and say that i'm not seeing what you're seeing here, tests 3 and 4 don't look plasticy and shiny to me, they look basically the same as 1 and 2 except for the colours, where 1 and 2 have slightly more green in the blacks and slightly more red in the whites compared to 3 and 4. Most likely it is something to do with your monitor settings.
I'm happy with how the whole film looks now, nice and balanced colourwise, like I'm sure you will be too, as you yourself said here before about a clip where I used the same settings as in clips 3 and 4: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/kk650s-Star-Wars-Saga-Regraded-and-Semi-Specialized/post/690474/#TopicPost690474 .
Thanks for all the help and feedback on Star Wars, I didn't end up going down the greener path in the end but your thoughts are much appreciated!
Yes I think either my monitor or more likely my mind is playing tricks on me. Also I still think BOTH results are good= when it comes down to describing subtle differences its easy to lose the wood for the trees (!)
God you're telling me! I thought regrading Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition was hard but it was a picnic compared to regrading Star Wars, its so inconsistant that its just so easy to lose your way, which is why having you and everybody elses thoughts was so invaluable in keeping me on the right track.
Could you have a look at the Empire Strikes Back clips I just posted up and let me know which you prefer, the first more saturated one or the other less saturated one?
Okay, here's a clip from Empire Strikes Back using my latest settings. I feel that the colours are well balanced overall and the fleshtones look natural, would you all agree?
https://mega.co.nz/#!T5Bk0SpR!QCJrOkZeQSQBzV5ulqojO-iYXC0D-AwDjCbsUyEPdz4
Do you guys think that I should do a more desaturated release for Empire Strikes Back as well, with the clip above using the settings for the more colourful release?
EDIT:
Here's an example of how a 'normal' version could look like:
https://mega.co.nz/#!ihwVCQIL!z1dD6zs8IBIXX_-aXvuyC2BSIfhkeeOH_tbBqHtcWgs
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Difference is subtle, but I spotted it in previous comparisons... (^^,)
Maybe a really-little-tiny decrease in saturation in the 'normal' version could be OK, but as it is now, it is not mandatory IMHO.
I agree, I really do not want to desaturate the normal version any further unless I absolutely have to, I want both versions to be appealing to watch after all and the normal version is right on the verge of being a little dull colourwise IMHO. Perhaps I could increase the difference between the two settings by giving the technicolor version a little saturation boost, making it a little more colourful? Anybody think that would be a good idea?
frank678 said:
kk650 said:
The contrast of both settings are the same, I imagine the reason why you find clip 2 and 4 less heavy is because they contain more green overall which mutes the colours and makes them less heavy. Perhaps the reason you find clips 1 and 3 heavy is not so much to do with the colours but the saturation?
>>
One of us I think has confused the numbers? Anyway, yes I agree I've found certain colour casts can dilute the balances. I was ignoring colour in favour of the overall effect. Let me post stills from final test 2 followed by final test 4 =
V.
I prefer 2 over 4 because what I'm seeing is a slightly plastic-y, over shiny quality, in 4. I'm looking at the faces as if I was looking at them from a certain distance in real life and what seems to have the most natural texture for the dimensions. However, I have no idea how much any of this is shaped by my monitor settings. So would you would do best to go with what YOU see/prefer.
I've got to be honest with you and say that i'm not seeing what you're seeing here, tests 3 and 4 don't look plasticy and shiny to me, they look basically the same as 1 and 2 except for the colours, where 1 and 2 have slightly more green in the blacks and slightly more red in the whites compared to 3 and 4. Most likely it is something to do with your monitor settings.
I'm happy with how the whole film looks now, nice and balanced colourwise, like I'm sure you will be too, as you yourself said here before about a clip where I used the same settings as in clips 3 and 4: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/kk650s-Star-Wars-Saga-Regraded-and-Semi-Specialized/post/690474/#TopicPost690474 .
Thanks for all the help and feedback on Star Wars, I didn't end up going down the greener path in the end but your thoughts are much appreciated!
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Thank you very much! I like it best, overall color now seems perfect. Good job!
I suggest to post both 'normal' and 'technicolor' versions here:
http://screenshotcomparison.com
so anyone could see differences between them "on the fly".
Cool! I've created some screencap comparisons taken directly from regraded encodes rather than the preview window so this is exactly what it will look like on the finished release. I think you will be surprised how little difference there is between the two, its a lot more subtle than I expected. Maybe i should desaturate the 'normal' one a little more to increase the difference? What do you think?
Everybody else please feel free to check these out as well and post your thoughts on how both the normal and technicolor version of Star Wars Semi-Specialised looks:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63375
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63376
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63377
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63378
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63379
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63380
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63381
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63382
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63383
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/63384
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
May I ask you to post some screenshots from the 'normal' version?
Sure. Unfortunately my imageshack trial just ran out so i've put the screencaps from the 'normal' version of Star Wars in a rar you can download below. Let me know what you think:
https://mega.co.nz/#!r4QUjQaD!XWEt-2pwpPQ6FYRXMjagA-EL2IUPw_96JwhXnBN3TIU
frank678 said:
yep still prefer final clip 2. keep in mind it's what only looks less heavy on my monitor. :)
The contrast of both settings are the same, I imagine the reason why you find clip 2 and 4 less heavy is because they contain more green overall which mutes the colours and makes them less heavy. Perhaps the reason you find clips 1 and 3 heavy is not so much to do with the colours but the saturation? Have you checked the clip with the 'normal' settings, seen whether you prefer those more muted colours,like _,,,^..^,,,_ and poita? Here it is below:
Test 1 normal:
https://mega.co.nz/#!TkZxwKbY!uij9ATczmbkXclZtkoict48I47qYXIGPDm4oYwkwmzs
For this 'technicolor' release though, after switching between them time and time again, test 1 and 3 just look more natural to me than test 2 and 4 which means funnily enough i've pretty much come full circle, I keep the blacks unchanged like before and the settings I will use are the same that I used with those latest screencaps taken from the whole of Star Wars.
So to sumarise for everybody that doesn't want to go through the thread to read up on all the details, these are screencaps using the same settings as i'll be using for the 'technicolor' release. These screencaps were taken from my regrader preview so they are a little more saturated/contrasty than the actual encode will be, as can be seen in the clip i've included below:
Here's a clip of the chat between leia and darth vader on tantive IV using the same 'technicolor' settings as the screencaps above.
https://mega.co.nz/#!i95TyJTL!sPajkQuEPEaRtu2dYdyGt46WACyUPDGzC4q-0Cn_uqw
I also plan to release a 'normal' version that is less saturated for those that find the 'technicolor' version too colourful.
Here's a clip from this 'normal' version:
https://mega.co.nz/#!TkZxwKbY!uij9ATczmbkXclZtkoict48I47qYXIGPDm4oYwkwmzs
Okay, here are the last two clips. final test 2 uses the same settings as final test 1 and final test 4 uses the same settings as final test 3. Again apologies for the size of the clips. Again please let me know which one of these two you prefer.
Final Test 2:
https://mega.co.nz/#!fx42UaAD!Y_gOrYGhiWKzIYe9o2N9aj7cehf9Xx1nGsVDnoDda5s
Final Test 4:
https://mega.co.nz/#!D9owDZQZ!S62zDBuplXb7nxeWeOUPvavKVmMT_59R5ffawJ9LMi0
@frank678: Could you have a look at these two new clips and see whether you prefer test 2 as well?
@_,,,^..^,,,_: haha yeah sorry about that! They are indeed very similar, I have difficulty telling them apart and i know what to look for! I agree with you about prefering test 3 by the way. Can you check these two new clips as well, see if you also prefer test 4, that uses the same settings as test 3?
As for the faces being too tanned well your confusion is my fault because I didn't explicitly state it, these tests are for the more saturated version, not the less saturated 'normal' version which I showed you a clip of before. I'm pretty happy with the settings of the 'normal' release that you said you felt was almost perfect so they'll pretty much stay the same, no need to do any more tests. It uses pretty much the same settings as the screencaps that I posted earlier in the thread that poita really liked so you and him seem to be pretty much on the same wavelength.
You guys have got nothing to worry about, if you guys are interested in this semi-specialised release there'll be a less saturated version that is more to your taste, I'm planning two releases for this film, the 'normal' version and the more saturated version that i'll most likely call the 'technicolor' version unless another name comes to mind. To be honest one of the reasons I plan to make two versions is because I haven't decided which I prefer either haha
Okay, I've nailed it down to two possible settings now but I need your help once again guys.
These are the first two clips of my final test, taken from when obi wan scares off the sandpeople to the end of the conversation in obi wan's hut. The rocks in front of R2D2 will of course not be there in the final version, i'll be using the unaltered footage from the hdtv transport streams for those bits, so no need to worry on that front, what a pointless change by GL. Apologies in advance for the size of these clips, 1gb each. Please check out both clips and let me know which you prefer the look of:
final test 1:
https://mega.co.nz/#!jlQAwL4A!APGQuZKgQVIcozo287PjBf6WDs7eW25oYEmY9MQnaVA
final test 3:
https://mega.co.nz/#!Pkx3QI6C!qYQ52WvMbQW5aKy0zW8uEU4Yc8NP9QR2tOSdnMxZgZA
i'm right in the middle of encoding the last two clips using the same two settings as the first two clips but during a different part of the film, from when darth vader sends in the scanning crew to check out the millenium falcon to when luke, chewie and han leave the control center to go rescue leia. I will post these two clips up as soon as they've finished encoding.
@bkev: Thanks! I agree that this is probably as good as i'm personally going to be able to get Star Wars to look using one setting for the majority of the film. I don't know whether its 100% accurate but it looks good to me and looks good to you as well so thats really what matters most, it least to me.
@_,,,^..^,,,_: I'm glad you like this less saturated version more. I've removed the red that appears at the bottom of Vader's eye at 00:00:36 of the clip in my first semi-specialised release and will do in this new version as well, if that's what you're talking about. I always found it very distracting when I was first creating these semi-specialised releases so I selectively removed that red from the bottom of his eyes from the frames that were affected. However if you're talking about the slight reddish reflection on his helmet that's not an issue for me, does make me wonder what's causing it though. Could it perhaps be the colour of the helmet or what the helmet is made of that is causing it to reflect back slightly reddish light when the white light hits it at a certain angle?
@frank678: Yes, I see where you're coming and agree with you, the contrast in 2A is better, that's what i'm going with from now on. This is why it is so useful having a fresh set of eyes look at these clips, it helps keeps me honest and far away from slippery contrast slopes. :)
@frank678: Cheers, you're being incredibly helpful!
Is it possible you didn't like test 2 because you felt it had too much contrast rather than because of the colour? Can you have a look at this clip below, test 2a, where i've kept the colour settings of test 2 but reduced the contrast slightly and let me know whether you still prefer test 3?
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Test 2a:
https://mega.co.nz/#!vsRnSaaT!fDSja-9v4vEguH3gcehOMOuQ6faxezsQMpQd6sTC1F0
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If you still prefer test 3, can you then have a look at this new clip, test 4, and let me know which you prefer:
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Test 4:
https://mega.co.nz/#!y1wl1QDQ!jKnUX5jOj1Xejjov_EWcDT0zGBbxiYxf-hc4Cdypl1s
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@_,,,^..^,,,_: Thanks, glad you like the colour grading here.
You're not the first to mention the issue of saturation, poita also prefers a more desaturated look to the film. I think i'm going to release a version like that as well.
These are the settings I plan to use for this less saturated version. Please let me know what you think:
-
Test 1 normal:
https://mega.co.nz/#!TkZxwKbY!uij9ATczmbkXclZtkoict48I47qYXIGPDm4oYwkwmzs
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The final shot of the spaceship that has the colour grading changing as you say is in the original blu-ray source, nothing to do with my settings.
frank678 said:
I think the clip looks good, the balances look nice and natural. I would watch this over the blu-ray any day.
Cheers, I was sure you'd like the encode more than the overly saturated/contrasty preview screencaps.
Looking at the blacks in space at the start of that clip, I was not happy with the purple I was seeing there so i've selectively removed it, making the blacks look more natural.
Here are two clips with the purple removed from the blacks but slightly different from each other colourwise, guys please check them out and let me know which you prefer the overall look of for the whole clip, rather than simply focusing on one shot like the screencaps i've posted above.
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Test 2:
https://mega.co.nz/#!345wWJ6B!vMdqLFK5SAav2mAc8ANGU0QWwyuguIjzIbPO2TdbmGI
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Test 3:
https://mega.co.nz/#!XhxXgLxQ!TQig6XncJEprS5m_aLLIzE64fX-TamGLRLMG2zmgWrM
rockin said:
I really like it, there is however a little bit of purple/pinkness to some of the whites.
@rockin: Thanks for your thoughts. I'm glad you like how this clip looks overall, certainly a very good sign. As for the little bit of purple/pinkness to some of the whites though, take a look at these two screencaps taken from the same clip, same angle but one taken from the start of darth/leia's chat and one taken from the end:
Beginning of chat:
End of chat:
Can you see how the whites in the white lights have a bit of purple in the first shot while they do not in the second? Can you see how the corridor walls are more green in the first shot than the second? These differences are easier to see if you open both the screencaps in seperate windows and switch between them.
Both shots have been taken by exactly the same camera from the same angle with the same lighting. They should look exactly the same colourwise yet for some reason the colours are different.
This is a good example of the colour grading inconsistency shot by shot of Star Wars across the whole film. Unless you are doing a shot by shot regrade, which I personally am not, which of these two shots do I regrade for and fix so all the whites are completely white? Fixing one will invariably mess up the other screencap and other shots in the film. What I am aiming to do is to strike as good a balance as possible so with that comes an acceptance that the whites are not going to look 100% white in every single shot throughout the film, like the slight amount of purple in the white lights of the first screencap.
I do think the whites overall in this clip though look pretty accurate for the most part. Would you agree with that? Of course I have purposely chosen the one scene in the whole film that most highlights these sort of issues because there is so much white everywhere. Any other colour grading inconsistencies would be far less noticable in the rest of the film.
Okay, here's a clip of the chat between leia and darth vader on tantive IV using the same settings as the latest screencaps.
https://mega.co.nz/#!i95TyJTL!sPajkQuEPEaRtu2dYdyGt46WACyUPDGzC4q-0Cn_uqw
The encode itself is not as contrasty or saturated as the the screencaps would suggest, those preview screencaps really are quite misleading. Last time I use my programs screencap export function, from now on if I need to post a screencap, i'll capture it directly off the regraded encode itself.
Guys, please let me know what you think of the clip. Would it look more natural to you with more green overall in your opinion?
hmm thanks for your thoughts frank678. The saturation is actually exactly the same between the screencaps in post 8 and these latest screencaps, the only difference is that the screencaps in post 8 have more green overall which make them appear more muted in colour compared to these screencaps.
What i'm finding is that those preview shots are pretty misleading because i've just discovered that they are slightly different to what I actually see when I export the frame and the encode itself, the whites, especially of light sources, seem more yellow. From now on i'm going to post clip comparisons that actually reflect what the encode looks like.
The real question is how much green to go with, choices, choices... I'll put some comparison clips up later on so you guys can help me get out of this labyrinth that is regrading Star Wars...
@Hal 9000: That they look good to you is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for so thank you.
With this release I am mostly trying to make Star Wars appealing to watch on a purely visual level, of course I am trying to get the film looking as accurate as possible to how it looked in the cinema but making it visually appealing supercedes that in my mind. If you feel that i've achieved that then that's great.
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@NeverarGreat: I can see where you're coming as far as the whites having a very slight touch of green in certain shots like the stormtrooper armour but there is also slight purple in the armour as well. There at times where there's a touch of purple in the shadow areas in certain shots as well. Howver both these issues are within acceptable grading variation limits IHMO, remember that Star Wars is a very inconsistent film colour grading wise.
I have experimented with getting rid of both the slight green and purple selectively and while those particular shots are 'improved' in the sense that the purple is reduced and the white of the armour are more 'white', the rest of the film that doesn't suffer these issues is adversely affected. Using a single setting is about striking a balance and i'm happy with the balance i've struck here, a touch of purple and green that's barely noticable in a few individual shots across the whole film doesn't bother me greatly.
These 'problems' could also be part of the optics of the film when it was shot, slight purple in shadows is not uncommon in photography depending on lighting conditions, in particular in bright sunlight like that shot with Uncle Owen. In You_Too's regrading thread one guy here says much the same thing: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Digging-up-those-blacks-using-the-STAR-WARS-Blu-ray-for-preservations/post/549794/#TopicPost549794
I do a fair bit of photography myself and I have found what he says to be true in my experience. As for the stormtrooper whites being slightly green, I believe the star wars has always had a slight green tint to it as a lot of the films shot at this time did from what i've seen so that doesn't bother me, so long as the whites from white light sources and the fleshtones look right to me.
I'm glad that at least you find all the shots an improvement on my previous settings, that's really the most important thing.
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@bttfbrasilfan: Thanks bttfbrasilfan! That 70's warm technicolor feel is exactly what i'm going for here. I did do something about the crushed blacks, the blacks are now substancially brighter than the blu-ray with a lot more shadow detail visible so all the crushed blacks have been removed to my satisfaction.
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@Funcha: As I said to NeverarGreat above, I have experimented with removing the purple from the shadow details and it has a detrimental effect on the rest of the film. I suspect a lot of it was part of the optics when the film was shot, especially that shot outdoors in the direct sunlight with Uncle Owen where the purple in his hair is a lot stronger.
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@poita: I have all the project files of my semi-specialised editions using the same program that has served me very well for colour correcting, editing, audio editing, adding transitions and finally encoding. If I need to be very very specific in terms of selective colour grading, I use photoshop like I did to correct the lightsaber colours and make them all consistent with my first semi-specialised releases.
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@bkev: It's great to hear that you like how this looks, calling it the perfect release for you is quite the compliment so thank you! Just to clarify though, do you mean that its perfect for you in terms of the colours/image dynamics from the screencaps or in terms of this release including the good additions/changes of the special edition while removing the bad additions/changes?
Lightsaber color/consistency will not an issue with this release, the colours have already been fixed and been made consistent, I fixed all that already with my first star wars semi-specialised release and I have kept all the source files with the corrections so that will be very easy to implement. That lightsaber screencap was taken straight from the blu-ray with just the basic regrading applied but not selective colour grading so it doesn't reflect how the lightsabers will look in the actual release. If that's your only complaint then its a good sign.
No comments or feedback yet? I suppose that no out and out critisism like I had with the Empire Strikes Back screencaps is a good sign haha
You guys were definately right about the Empire Strikes Back screencaps having too much green, which was very helpful to me. If anything stands out as looking wrong or off in these star wars screencaps please let me know, these setting are not final by any means, I have no problem changing them if someone spots a problem. Its very easy to lose perspective when you spend a long time working on a single film, making it easy to miss problems staring you straight in the face so I always appreciate the thoughts of those looking at these screencaps with a fresh set of eyes.
On a slighly seperate issue, what are your thoughts on the saturation of these screencaps, keeping in mind that these preview screencaps are always a little more saturated than the encode itself? Do you think that I should also release a version of Star Wars with more muted colours like the screencaps I posted for poita before or should I just stick with just releasing this more colourful release?
I was wondering if there's an audio track of Once Upon A Time In The West out there that's superior to the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 on the blu-ray, a PCM stereo track from a laserdisc perhaps, anybody know of something like that?
Okay, after much experimenting I think i've finally settled on settings for Star Wars that i'm happy with across the whole film pretty much.
There have been a few changes compared to my previous settings, mostly being a reduction in the overall amount of green because I felt in hindsight after coming back to Star Wars after a two week break that there was still too much green overall and I also finetuned the fleshtones a bit.
Here are some screencaps below with my latest and most likely final settings. Please let me know what you think.
Damn, how lazy is taking the frames straight from the blu-rays rather than the film prints of the original trilogy!? If its taken from the blu-ray i'll definately be giving it a miss.
Watching that trailer, at 0:51 I had to do a double take because I couldn't believe what I was seeing, he included frames from Jedi Rocks and that awful closeup shot of Sy Snootles's CG lips among his favourite frames of the Original Trilogy!? That really does make me question his judgement here as far as favourite frames are concerned or maybe its all just a bit of a joke to him at this point.
Seems this was clearly a blatant moneygrab by GL. Thanks for warning me off guys! I can get much better regraded frames in 1920x1080 resolution off my regrader previewer rather than paying $80 for the priviledge of seeing that awful blue tint all over the original trilogy again. Can't believe I was considering getting this, just glad I asked you all first.
I was browsing online and came across a new affordable release of Star Wars: Frames that I hadn't previously been aware of. I remember when it came out as a limited edition set a few years back priced at around $5000 I believe which I thought was absolutely ridiculous but I wasn't aware that it had recently been rereleased for around $80.
Have any of you guys got the new rerelease of Star Wars: Frames and if you do, would you recommend it? Are the colours accurate to the films as they were shown in the cinema or are the frames taken from the blu-ray with the same bluish tint throughout?
I'm seriously considering picking this up for the original trilogy frames really and would appreciate the thoughts of anyone that already owns this.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
The coarse grain (that I called 16mm just to remember...) is actually the 35mm downscaled...
I'm aware that the "16mm" grain covers better the DNR, but it seems to me a little bit too coarse... maybe I should try something in the middle.
Yes, that 16mm grain is far too much, not a good look IMHO. The 35mm grain, while much better than the 16mm grain, has the problem that it doesn't do enough to hide the DNRed nature of the UHE.
You should do a test with grain double the size of the 35mm grain you just used if you can, see how it looks.
