http://www.starwars.com/news/j-j-abrams-to-write-and-direct-star-wars-episode-ix?cmp=smc|1069686719
Jesus.
Leia shot first.
She had a penis?
Han shot first.
Are you sure Luke was not the first?
It is neither shown nor said. At best, it is an inference, therefore inadmissible according to your own criteria, right?
My criteria do not apply to me.
Han shot first.
Are you sure Luke was not the first?
Not a single post on-topic yet. Frink, you urged them to take it here and now you come here and post off-topic stuff.
Can you guys please just start your own “Rape and Incest in Star Wars” thread?
I am surprised that DE has not yet made one.
I see you arrived here from the past via a time machine.
I have just noticed he already made one. I guess his reputation is well deserved.
Can you guys please just start your own “Rape and Incest in Star Wars” thread?
I am surprised that DE has not yet made one.
Holy shit this thread.
At least now you can appreciate the previous discussion.
You seem very focussed on the idea, that a character is only defined by explicit dialogue telling us how a character feels. Yet, a character is also defined by his or her belief system.
Personal inference and interpretation is a big part of film experience (for me too). However, unlike people around here, I do not use it in arguments because then it becomes as pointless as arguing which colour is prettier.
Belief system is of course an important part of the character. By far the best manifestation of it are the actions that the character does. The dialogue is less so since the character could “talk the talk but not walk the walk” but still at least it is unambiguous. The least reliable are interpretation from hints and so on, which are completely subjective and dependant on the viewer.
By the end of TESB it is very clear Luke’s belief system has been turned up side down. As such his character cannot be the same.
Well you might interpret that his belief system was turned upside down by the end of ESB and that he wanted to go back to Yoda instead of going for another friend-saving adventure. However, his action at the end of the film suggest otherwise.
He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.
And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness…
I’ll add to Mala’s point and say I don’t think he saw it as a fall that could have killed him. I think from the look of resignation on his face, he saw it as a fall he knew would kill him. I think it’s significant character development. He sees only two ways out: death or give in to Vader. It’s subtle in its execution (to the audience) but it’s far from the reckless kid we met in Star Wars. He’s willing (and attempts) to make the ultimate sacrifice to beat Vader and he makes peace with that decision. Nowhere near reckless.
Like I said, no matter how we call it, it is the same trait we have seen many times before. Attack on the death star was an “ultimate sacrifice” and he was basically choosing a very likely death too. When it comes to ESB, he basically made the decision to sacrifice himself already on Dagobah by going to face Vader in the first place. I do not see any significant change in character at all, especially after he decides to go for another one at the very end of ESB.
Now I am not saying that this any of this makes his character bad. I actually like it. It is just that his character does not develop a lot pre-ROTJ.
- edit - What Alderaan said.
Luke deciding to go with Vader instead of jumping would actually be a change of character.
There’s a big difference between participating in a high risk operation and choosing certain death. In one case you accept the high risk associated with the mission, which you believe can be achieved, and you hope your skills and your friends will be able to get you home alive and well. In the second case you die, end of story. It was a seminal moment in the saga, where Luke after many reckless choices refused to join his father, and resigned to his fate, and Vader failed despite winning their fight with relative ease.
Well both attack on death star and going to face Vader on Bespin were similarly suicide missions. Both had very similar outcomes as well. In the first case, Luke ended up alone in the trench, facing the choice of retreat or certain death (i.e. continue the mission). He chose the second and he would certainly die if Han did not miraculously save him. In the second case, Luke ended up without hand, facing a choice of joining Vader or certain death (i.e. jumping). He chose the second and he would die if antenna did not miraculously save him.
His choices/actions are practically the same in very similar situations. In this particular respect his character did not change.
By the end of the movie he was changed. His incubated little world was shattered. Crushed. He gained a wider understanding of his own nature and who and what he was up against. He started out uninformed, arrogant, and hotheaded. He ended up informed, humbled, and reflective.
Isn’t that what we call change?
Where exactly is this “change” reflected in the film? The only scene in the film that comes after indicates the exact opposite, as Luke decides to go for another friend-saving adventure instead of going back to Yoda.
He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.
And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness…
I’ll add to Mala’s point and say I don’t think he saw it as a fall that could have killed him. I think from the look of resignation on his face, he saw it as a fall he knew would kill him. I think it’s significant character development. He sees only two ways out: death or give in to Vader. It’s subtle in its execution (to the audience) but it’s far from the reckless kid we met in Star Wars. He’s willing (and attempts) to make the ultimate sacrifice to beat Vader and he makes peace with that decision. Nowhere near reckless.
Like I said, no matter how we call it, it is the same trait we have seen many times before. Attack on the death star was an “ultimate sacrifice” and he was basically choosing a very likely death too. When it comes to ESB, he basically made the decision to sacrifice himself already on Dagobah by going to face Vader in the first place. I do not see any significant change in character at all, especially after he decides to go for another one at the very end of ESB.
Now I am not saying that this any of this makes his character bad. I actually like it. It is just that his character does not develop a lot pre-ROTJ.
- edit - What Alderaan said.
Luke deciding to go with Vader instead of jumping would actually be a change of character.
Indeed. Luke has failed Yoda twice already (the cave, Bespin) but he doesn’t want to take his father’s path. Luke has changed… and his father begins to change as well (does he kill Piett at the end like he “should” do it ? No, he just walks away).
Did he go back to Yoda after that? No, he failed Yoda again by deciding to go on another “friend-saving” adventure just at the end of ESB.
Regarding Piett, it is my speculation against yours, but I think at that point Vader was in a different world and just did not care about such a petty thing. I doubt he spared him because he suddenly became a “better person”.
ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.
I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.
Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.
In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.
Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.
Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…
You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.
I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.
I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.
He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.
And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness that we have seen so many before and is pretty much Luke’s pre-ROTJ trademark.
It’s not recklessness; it’s nobility. Luke would rather subject himself to likely death than to turn to the dark side.
Call it whatever you like, however it is essentially the same old mindset we have seen before. The “nobility” when he decides to go on a suicide mission instead of leaving with Han full of money. The same old “nobility” when he decides to leave the training at Yoda to “save” his friends. The same old “nobility” when he decides to go for another friend-saving adventure instead of going back to Yoda. Very little change of character before ROTJ.
ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.
I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.
Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.
In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.
Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.
Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…
You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.
I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.
I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.
He decides to make a jump that could have killed him. For example.
And how did that develop/change the character? It is just another act of recklessness that we have seen so many before and is pretty much Luke’s pre-ROTJ trademark.
I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.
You don’t need to be shown everything on screen. Don’t fall into the Lucas trap.
Well I am not the guy who would need to be shown everything on screen but when it comes to characterisation the only thing that can actually develop the character is dialogue and (even more so) actions. Unfortunately, assumptions do no develop characters.
ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.
I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.
Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.
In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.
Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.
Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…
You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.
I disagree. For one a person who experiences trauma is never the same after such an external “disturbance”. This is the very nature of trauma, and Luke experienced trauma in more ways than just physical injury. He went to Cloud City, believing he might be able to save his friends from the clutches of the man who murdered his father, only to come up one hand short, and discovering that his noble hero father is the ultimate bad guy. A man is, what he believes in, and everything Luke believed, has turned out to be a lie. I would call that a life changing event. The Luke at the end of TESB definitely is no longer the naive young rebel he was at the start of the film. He is now a Jedi in training, who’s life has been turned upside down. The idea that he would just get a new hand, and go on as if nothing has happened (which is what you seem to suggest) is ludricous to me.
I do not necessary disagree with with your assumptions, but if we look at the dry facts, in the one scene that is left in ESB there is nothing that indicates any change in character. There are no actions or dialogue that would indicate so.
In fact, from that one last scene the only thing that is clear is that he was going to do another “friend saving” adventure instead of going back to Yoda, which can only indicate he did not change much or learn anything.
TFA had real characters…while return of the jedi had nothing but meaningless drivel and no story
That must be the most stupid thing I have seen in while around here.
ROTJ had some of the best character development in OT. While Han’s character development in ESB was great, I think Luke’s and Vader’s character developments in ROTJ were even a level above that.
I disagree. The Luke/Vader arc was great, but it was the only significant arc in the film. The other characters were just going through the motions, shells of their former selfs. TESB had great arcs for all the main characters. Every character was in a very different place personally at the end of the second installment from where they started off. This puts TESB miles ahead of ROTJ in the character development department.
Different place in terms of character? Not entirely true. For example, Luke does not actually change much in ESB. He is still this enthusiastic and reckless guy as he was at the beginning. He leaves Yoda’s training pretty much the same person (recklessly nonetheless). Leia again does not change much besides finally revealing her feelings to Han. The only one with a significant change is Han’s character. It is unfortunate that Lucas made Leia proclaim her love to Han already in ESB. I think iff he would leave that for ROTJ, those two character could be used way better in ROTJ.
In ROTJ Luke becomes completely different person compared to ANH and ESB. Same goes for Vader. While Vader was likeable and badass in ANH and ESB, he was pretty one dimensional. In ROTJ his character get a lot of depth and becomes very interesting. Even Leia and Han actually get development in ROTJ and are considerably different compared to ANH and ESB. While it might be a development you do not like but it is still a considerable development.
Anyway, I did not say ROTJ is overall the best in terms of character development. I just said that Luke’s and Vader’s character development are individually better than anything seen in ANH or ESB.
Luke doesn’t change much? Seriously? You throw out a pretty part of the story. I think this guy…
You are unable to differentiate between current state of the character due to some external “disturbance” and actual change/development of character. That scene is just Luke still being shocked due to the reveal and due to trauma related to his damn limb being cut off. So what exactly are the actions and dialogue he makes after that scene that indicate any difference (within ESB of course)? In the one scene that is left after that one I do not see any change of character.
- SW/ESB
- ROTJ
- R1
Am I non-controversial enough?
Well this is the closest to the truth, which is:
They could make something like Casino (1995). So basically the protagonist would be one of the Jabba’s lieutenants sent to, let’s say, Nar Shaddaa or Coruscant to establish a crime syndicate for him there.
Protecting Disney regarding not releasing OOT is pointless. No matter how you try to spin it, in the end it is entirely Disney’s fault that it is not being released. If they let Lucas put some restriction in the contract, it is their fault. If they wait because they do not want Fox to get a small percentage, it is their fault. And so on… and you can apply this to all the pathetic excuses people come up with around here.
I’m afraid that probably says more about you than the music.
This makes zero sense.
I guess some people just have a more refined taste when it comes to their “individual impression” beyond whether they can remember a piece of music they heard two years later.
You guess wrong. If something makes an impression on you, then you will remember it. If not, you will most likely forget it. That is just how human brain work.
Well, believe it or not there is a difference between remembering something and finding it memorable. You can watch a film and think “hey, this music is really good and works really well as a whole and as a part of this film” and remember that impression years later. Whether that means you can remember what the melodies are is something different.
I would say that generally, even if you do not remember the melody to extend to be able to hum it or “play” it in your head, if it actually made an impression on you, when you hear it again you will most likely recognise it. I did not recognise those two at all.
