imperialscum

I prefer the special editions over the originals. I guess I would take 2004 version (minus Hayden as a Ghost) as the best available version. I think that visuals are extremely important for world-building and immersion, so I welcome the visually improved/new scenes (e.g., the new shot of Ben’s hut in ANH).

(Note: I still think originals should be released in high-quality format. But then again, neither 1997 nor 2004 SE version were released in HD format.)

Hoop28 said:

imperialscum said:

Stardust1138 said:

See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.

https://youtu.be/nD5FqAJf3T0

Great interview, thanks for sharing.

Stardust1138 said:

George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.

Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: George is good when it comes to writing a general story outline, but horrible when it comes to dialogue and character arcs. Kasdan came on and was the guy who really fleshed out the dialogue and characters, as he did with Jedi. Had Lucas gotten Kasdan or someone who was half decent at writing dialouge for the Prequels they would’ve atleast been slightly more enjoyable.

Since Lucas’ draft had around 130 typed pages, I would argue that it was far beyond a general story outline, but it defined the details of individual scenes already. Nevertheless, I definitely agree that Kasdan is a great dialogue writer and made a great contribution. There is a noticeable style difference between ANH on one hand, and ESB and ROTJ on the other. I guess that might be one of the reasons why I have always liked ESB and ROTJ slightly more than ANH.

Stardust1138 said:

See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.

https://youtu.be/nD5FqAJf3T0

Great interview, thanks for sharing.

Stardust1138 said:

George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.

Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”

StarkillerAG said:

But the way those lines are differed is markedly different than it is in ESB. Seriously, compare this scene in ANH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLgsf8Pei6Q&t=238

You are pulling out pretty much the only example in the ENTIRE trilogy (besides “…and a traitor, take her away!”) where he noticeably raised his voice. Even throughout the rest of ANH his voice and behaviour is otherwise very calm. For example, “I find your lack of faith disturbing” is as calm as anything in ESB. And the two exceptions at the beginning of ANH happen on the same day within minutes. Probably he just had a headache that day or something.

Mocata said:

Calm is calm. Even had his most murderous during ESB he doesn’t even raise his voice.

My point exactly. If they wanted to convey that Vader is not a calm character, but an angry character, they would have instructed Jones to raise his voice during his acting. Like I said earlier, (voice) acting is a powerful tool to convey the character. Yet he speaks calmly all the time, even in the most challenging situations.

SparkySywer said:

I sort of agree with Neverar, I don’t really think the Jedi having an official age limit undermines the line in the OT. It’s still really dumb, though, and it feels like it’s a gross misinterpretation of the line in ESB, especially because Lucas was not the one who wrote it.

It is very likely that Lucas wrote the original premise for the line in the second screenplay draft. Of course, the final line was written by Kasdan, but I doubt the idea was not already there in Lucas’ second draft.

SparkySywer said:

That said, though, that’s pretty much as emotional as he gets, and that’s sort of the power of scenes like this (pardon the Special Edition). You can just feel, from both David Prowse’s acting and the acting of all the Imperial Officers on the bridge with him, that he’s losing his mind with rage inside. His failure to take in Luke Skywalker has driven him past his breaking point.

On contrary, his clam and slow body motion, head gestures and walking pattern indicate the complete opposite. They indicate disappointment and inner conflict rather than rage or losing composure.

I agree that the scene indicates that he had a braking point, but definitely not a braking point in terms of rage or losing composure. The breaking point was that the encounter with Luke caused a conflict inside him that is then continued throughout the ROTJ. The ROTJ Vader (that some fans hate) actually started here in ESB.

I do not really have any significant examples of changed opinion, since I normally get it right the first time.

While this does not really count as a changed opinion, I was however reluctant to try KOTOR when it came out, because I thought it was going to be some PT stuff. I did eventually gave it a try a couple of months after the release and it was (still is) one of the best Star Wars things ever made.

Years later, I was reluctant to try SWTOR too, but for a different reason (because I hate MMORPG since it takes one out of the story). I gave it a try at the release, and again, it was one of the best Star Wars things ever made (at least the original game content, most of the expansions were kinda shit). And it turned out that MMORPG elements could be ignored and the game could be played as a single-player with full story immersion.

StarkillerAG said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Or at best they are matched and Lukes fury gives him the edge.

Congrats, you figured out the intended goal of the scene. It’s supposed to show how powerful anger can be, showing why people would be tempted by its power. Luke trained himself before the duel, him and Vader are very similar in pure skill. But when Luke gave into anger, it allowed him to win easily. “Quicker, easier, more seductive,” as Yoda said.

I would not say that is the main reason. ROTJ spends a lot of time showing that Vader has an inner conflict (plus the final scene in ESB), and that is the main reason for his poor sword performance in the final duel.

Films have three powerful tools to build a character: acting, monologue and dialogue. If they wanted to show that Vader is an angry person, they could have easily done it through those tools. Yet they did not (or completely failed to do so in case they intended), since Vader in OT is a very calm character with extreme composure. For example, when Vader’s TIE was rammed, they could have used acting for him to punch the joystick, or monologue to say something in anger, yet he calmly flies away. Another example, they could have made Vader’s reaction to Motti impulsive, rather than slow, clam and witty.

G&G-Fan said:

How is this (slamming his lightsaber furiously) calm?
https://youtu.be/GueBXRYVhe0

Pointless “slamming” (i.e., intentionally missing) is obviously part of Vader toying with Luke. When Luke cuts Vader’s arm, his sword style changes dramatically and Luke is elegantly disarmed in a couple of seconds.

G&G-Fan said:

Also you don’t get anymore blatant then “Much anger in him… like his father.”

Since you seem to like to use PT as a reference, you can use it here as well. PT showed that Yoda was often wrong. This can be another instance for you.

All your arguments are essentially “just because he does not show it, it does not mean it is not there”. I am sorry, but it does not work like that when you are analysing things beyond your personal head canon. The fact is that there is exactly one instance in the whole OT where Vader visibly looses his composure (i.e., “Tear the ship apart” scene), and tons of instances where he keeps his composure despite strong challenges and provocations. And no, cold-blooded execution does not imply anger or loss of composure, especially when one is doing it in such a calm manner accompanied by witty comments.

If you make a comparison to PT Anakin, who whines and has rage outbursts at every slight challenge, OT Vader is a complete opposite. These two characters just cannot be the same person, unless dark side improves ones character in an extreme way.

I disagree completely. You took a couple of rare exceptions and tried to prove a rule that does not exist. Out of the few examples you gave, only one qualifies as him loosing temper to any reasonable degree, and that is “Tear the ship apart!”. The original “Bring my shuttle!” is more of an annoyance and does not really qualify as loosing temper (anyway I prefer SE version). But these two rare examples are eclipsed by the overwhelmingly clam portrayal of Vader for the vast majority of OT.

There are tons of scenes that strongly indicate his clam nature and extreme composure:

• “I find your lack of faith disturbing.” (Extremely calm and witty response to a very professional provocation from Motti. One of the best examples.)
• “I told you she would never consciously betray the rebellion.” (Even Tarkin gets upset by this point but Vader remains calm.)
• He remains surprisingly calm even after one of his wingman rams his TIE fighter at the end of ANH. Probably the most irritating moment for him in ANH and yet he does not loose his temper in the slightest.
• “You have failed me for the last time Admiral.” (This line is said in a very clam and cold manner. No sign of loosing his temper, even though Ozzel screwed up big time. The tonal stress on “last” is just a natural speech pattern since the word “last” should be stressed.)
• “Apology accepted, Captain Needa.” (Extremely calm and witty line, even though Needa screwed up big time. One of the best examples.)
• “Perhaps you are being treated unfairly?” (Calm and witty response to Lando irritating him.)
• “You are beaten. It is useless to resist.” (Even though Luke cuts his arm, he is completely clam just moments later.)
• He does not kill Piett at the end of ESB and just calmly looks around the space and walks away. His body gestures are evidently super clam in this scene, which is even a bit surprising.
• Pretty much the whole ROTJ is one big example (especially scenes with Luke).

Loosing temper and lack of composure are signs of weak-minded losers who can easily be controlled by the cues from the outside (words, situations, etc.). Sorry but that is not OT Vader, no matter how much you want to retcon the horrible portrayal of PT Anakin.

SilverWook said:

imperialscum said:

screams in the void said:

ahhh fuck 2020 man .

crissrudd4554 said:

Sad to hear.

Mocata said:

Damn all three of these guys are gone now, this sucks.

Why people say silly stuff like this? They all lived extremely long lives.

IIRC, Prowse contracted Covid.

At that age even a cold can be a serious problem. The point I was making is that when a person lives a very long and interesting life, the death is not a tragedy but a natural event. The sentiment “this sucks” is therefore very inappropriate.

screams in the void said:

ahhh fuck 2020 man .

crissrudd4554 said:

Sad to hear.

Mocata said:

Damn all three of these guys are gone now, this sucks.

Why people say silly stuff like this? They all lived extremely long lives.

I see the added celebration scenes as flash-forward, and that is how any intelligent viewer should interpret them.

ray_afraid said:

Certainly a valid concern.

It’s a lame concern. This is the biggest franchise on planet Earth. There’s no way to make a new StarWars anything without a potion of the fanbase hating it. Just make the movie you wanna make.
Anyway, I’d have zero interest in a Darth Vader movie no matter who was involved.

Exactly. If Disney could be brave enough to make something as shitty as ST, then anyone can take a shot at it.

But same here, I would have no interest in such film either.

JadedSkywalker said:

On one hand Lucas hated directing and that is why he gave it up. And on the other hand he hated to cede control of one of his films to anyone, except the exception being Steven Spielberg. He hated films going over budget, he hated the writing process and didn’t like the technological limitations in his way of achieving his vision.
Collaboration was a necessity but he didn’t like to do that either.

When it came to do the prequels he just decided the hell with it and wrote and directed them himself to avoid what happened on Empire and Jedi. Its his way or no way. It would have been the same for the sequels had he not sold to Disney.

I do not think he hated directing per se. He probably just hated directing under time, budget and overwork pressure. During the filming of ANH he was under a huge pressure. During ESB and ROTJ he had to create and handle several films (OT + Indiana Jones) and had oversee a major expansion of his company. He just did not have time to also be physically on the set everyday working with the cast and crew. Around the time of PT, he was under no such pressure any more and he probably enjoyed it (the result being bad, but that is not the point).

Also, I do not think he ever expressed any major dissatisfaction with ESB and ROTJ (besides going over budget on ESB). In the end, Kershner and Marquand stuck to his vision and ideas very well during the filming process.

As for the writing, it is probably a similar case. For example, he said he enjoyed writing a screenplay for ESB. To my knowledge, he only complained about writing for ANH.

The answer is no. Spending one third of the film on his rescue just to kill him would have been beyond stupid.

SparkySywer said:

Marquand as a director is a lot like Gareth Edwards. Good with action and special effects, lackluster on characters. Return of the Jedi has that aspect to it that I don’t think would have been there without him.

I would say the opposite. Before ROTJ, Marquand mostly directed films based on character-driven stories/scripts. Also, people tend to forget that it is the story and script that essentially define the characters and how much focus is on them (which were basically done by Lucas and Kasdan in both films). I am pretty sure Marquand did his best to try to influence Lucas and Kasdan to put as much focus on characters as possible.

That being said, still, ROTJ has by far the most character development in the entire OT.

Hoop28 said:

imperialscum said:

Hoop28 said:

So obviously Lucas had a much bigger presence during the making of Jedi than he did Empire, he was practically a Co-Director, but did Marquand leave any mark of his own on the film? I haven’t seen his other work so I can’t say, and I don’t know if Lucas has attempted to erase any sort of legacy Marquand had like he did so many others on the OT.

I think Marquand had pretty much the same role in ROTJ as Kershner had in ESB. In both cases Lucas led the creative part (story, characters, screenplay, world-building, etc.), while Kershner and Marquand led the implementation and contributed in various ways to the creative part. If you look at it like that, then Lucas was “practically a co-director” in both cases.

Like it was pointed out, Marquand had some important contributions to the creative part, besides directing the implementation. Like Kershner, I think he was a valuable part of the trilogy.

Well from what I heard, Lucas was annoyed with alot of the changes and alterations that Kershner made while directing Empire, so for Jedi he was on set way more than he was during Empire and reshot quite a few scenes, apparently the whole reason Jedi was filmed in the United States was so Lucas could be on set daily.

I think that is an old myth. Even when Kershner wanted to make some minor changes to the dialogue of a few Dagobah scenes, he had a discussion with Lucas and Lucas approved it before they went shooting. The only major thing that Lucas was “annoyed” with (that I am aware of) was Ford’s “I know” line. Even with that one, they still shot a few takes of the original line too, and Lucas eventually has himself convinced in the end to use the “I know” take instead of “I love you too” take.

Knight of Kalee said:

imperialscum said:

Knight of Kalee said:

Luuke Skywalker

That was very stupid indeed, and along with the clone of Jorus C’baoth, practically ruined The Thrawn Trilogy. I mean cloning itself is a stupid concept for something like Star Wars, and clones with force powers are beyond stupid.

Well cloning in SW was pretty much on the table since '77 when the Clone Wars were first name dropped, but yeah the way it was done left a lot to be desired, kind of a letdown for the otherwise enjoyable Thrawn trilogy.

I am not so much against cloning bodies (besides being a lame and boring story element), but cloning force abilities with it is beyond ridiculous.

Hoop28 said:

So obviously Lucas had a much bigger presence during the making of Jedi than he did Empire, he was practically a Co-Director, but did Marquand leave any mark of his own on the film? I haven’t seen his other work so I can’t say, and I don’t know if Lucas has attempted to erase any sort of legacy Marquand had like he did so many others on the OT.

I think Marquand had pretty much the same role in ROTJ as Kershner had in ESB. In both cases Lucas led the creative part (story, characters, screenplay, world-building, etc.), while Kershner and Marquand led the implementation and contributed in various ways to the creative part. If you look at it like that, then Lucas was “practically a co-director” in both cases.

Like it was pointed out, Marquand had some important contributions to the creative part, besides directing the implementation. Like Kershner, I think he was a valuable part of the trilogy.

Knight of Kalee said:

Luuke Skywalker

That was very stupid indeed, and along with the clone of Jorus C’baoth, practically ruined The Thrawn Trilogy. I mean cloning itself is a stupid concept for something like Star Wars, and clones with force powers are beyond stupid.

I have no feelings for it.

2004 Special Edition.