frank678

hairy_hen said:

I have no idea whether adding that much yellow to the image will also allow for maintaining realistic skin tones, since the source is so messed up, or if there's even enough colour depth left in it to work with at all

 

My fear is that the release source has been degraded/messed up past the point where you could get back to a point of presenting the startingly natural range of colour captured in Mikes screen photos. (This is why we people need 3D films today because films don't look as naturally rich, lifelike and non-digital as this anymore)

mverta said:

While you cannot trust the luminance in the following references, you can trust the hue about 98%. When seen in a scan, or by eye, there also tends to be a bit more perceived separation of tonality than appears here, where it's almost approaching a sepia-like quality. But color-wise, these are damn, damn close. These are from some 3800 shots I took of a private screening of a pristine Tech IB print of Star Wars (far superior to Senator, which has a lot of platter damage). 

This is really depressing. I think I prefer not knowing it looks THIS good and I will never get to see it projected :O(

I think I give up...

V2 is a really big improvement on the colour scheme on V1 in this comparison. So much more warmth and natural tones now. Everything looks blue and silverish in V1, good example being C-3P0. In V2 C-3P0 is a real nice gold!

I can wait for this as I know its going to be worth it when it comes out. Trying not to watch too many clips before then = so it can blow my mind in one massive hit!

You_Too said:

But actually I think the most "annoying" thing about the raw GOUT is the image shake, and g-force's script does a good job on stabilizing that. Maybe there is a way to tweak the script so it keeps the grain and detail but reduces the shake? Gotta ask g-force.

 

Well I've played the clips over a few times, switching between sections and for me the post-processing is an acceptable trade-off, the extra presence and easiness-on-the-eye trumps the more detailed/organic texture of its raw state. The thing is in its raw state it may be more natural but its just a bit too flat and lifeless, like trying to watch through a dirty window.

Putting aside the presence accurate colour settings add, in your judgement what adds the greater presence in the post-processing stage - is it the stabilization or the dirt removal - or both equally?

Thanks for posting this explanation and comparison shots. Its helpful to understand this stuff more clearly now.

This is tricky: I can see pros and cons for each. Without the modified G-force script and anti-aliasing you get more grit and a much reduced presence within the image but a touch more detail amongst the grit. With the G-force and anti-aliasing you get a less distorted and more lifelike image which is pleasing to the eye in some ways but is also a little too smooth and plastic-y to the eye also. This is a tough call to make - I think I'd have to watch the same clip with each setting over and over to see which my eyes tire of/adjust to more, to have a clear either/or position on this.

You_Too said:

Thanks Frank! Well of course it's not as sharp as the raw GOUT since I added g-force's script, but I did mod it a bit to keep a some sharpness. I added his script simply to try it out, and if you guys want the same clip but without anti-aliasing and motion stabilization I can reupload it.

Yes I would like to see the difference if you dont mind doing it over again :-)

(Just so I can better understand what g-force's script adds and takes away in this case)

Are you considering a longer form release of your versions outside the forums. I think a lot of people who are disappointed with the dullness of the Gout would consider these to have a preferable look. I know lots of people myself included are waiting for Harmy's V2 to drop and see how it changes the game but my view at the moment is the highest tech version doesnt invalidate earlier versions for those people in my generation who didnt grow up with HD and can still get enjoyment out of a "beat up" version. 

You_Too said:

And here comes another sample clip from SW: http://www.multiupload.com/J9TB5L2E54

For this clip I've used the latest settings + modded g-force script.

Well I think this looks really good, the colours are naturalistic - there's no jarringly over-bright or 'odd' colours, the colour improvement has brought out more fine details and added depth of field. The whole thing stays 'in tune' across the whole sequence. Because the image is not pin sharp perhaps you lose something of the full potential of improved colours but things like Luke's jacket at the 20 second mark looks incredibly lifelike. 

The best compliment I can pay this is I keep forgetting to examine the colours as I keep just following the scene.

EDIT: I made a couple minor new updates for the script. The first one is I lowered the saturation just slightly, so the movies don't feel too oversaturated. I got that feeling especially with skin tones. Now it feels a bit more natural but still more colorful than the raw GOUT.

I also changed the values for the resize at the bottom of the script. Now it corrects the aspect ratio while keeping all vertical lines of pixels. Though it's for the PAL version, of course.

EDIT: After weighing pros and cons I decided to leave the saturation. When I lowered it, it took away a bit of that overall theatrical print look. With saturation unchanged, the movies look more like those 70mm scans and I think that's not a bad thing!

When I first saw this newest update it took me a few minutes to adjust to this level of saturation (as I had never seen the Gout with so much solidity my initial reaction was "is this right?"). However, once I put aside my pre- conceived idea of what was possible/how faded the film print must be, I can't see any other way but to accept that this WORKS. The effect of having all the colours work together so that objects now appear to curve and round and extend in solid three dimensionals creates the illusion of real life including radically extending the depth of field within images. With this setting there is infinitely greater sense of the space/distance between objects. It was like all previous adjustments were in flat 2D and now it looks 3D.

Now, whether the colour palette exactly matches what was in the originally print - I can't say*. But I would be wary of making changes that flatten this depth you've now acheived. AND this setting also improves all three films which makes me think there must be something intrinsically 'right' about it.

*I got "The Making of Star Wars" by JW Rinzler today and I realized probably everyting I imagined about the colours is wrong. Example: in the book its got pictures of the interior of ben's hut with the caption saying it was shot in England - when I had imagined it was shot in the Tunsia and so have natural coloured desert light. What a fool i was!

Just had another look = this latest setting is awesome!

Damn I want to watch these now!!

Wow! I don't know how you did it but everything seems to have more presence with this new change. All the faces seem to be more full-bodied, like real solid objects and less like flat images - how did you do this?

You gotta post a clip with this setting!

The advances you have made since your first attempt are impressive - this one is a major advance.

It's o.k. I can see the difference now- in the sky behind the landspeeder being stopped by stormtroopers in Mos Eisley.

My preference is still for the previous setting - I prefer the old lighter blue sky to the new darker blue sky

That said, when comparing these two settings, they are not that different, and the new one does look better. To prove this I made a comparison of screenshots. Each shot in it is divided. Left half is old settings and right half is new. If you have a hard time noticing it, check the shot of the jawas carrying R2.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8991/differenceo.jpg

 

Damn the difference must be fine - I can't tell one side of a shot from the other at all. Can you post a screenshot with the new settings of a shot already in the thread that had the last settings. I respect your judgement that you reached the most accurate balance thus far, but I want to go back and double check if what I think I see, I really am seeing... (or if i'm losing my mind)

I'll have to double check properly later but my initial impression is they are all too blue now. I prefer the Star Wars settings you had just before this updated one (which bested the savestarwars.com gout correct and lee thorogood technicolor project to my eyes). My sense is that because you're recalibrating bit by bit and trying to get the best overall balance your eyes might get used to one setting that to others in a quick glance may not appear right.

This is only to my eyes/mind though, so please cross reference it with other feedback...

p.s. I guess this could become incredibly frustrating but you've got to go in all different directions to be able to find the middle point at which it all balances out the best. I think with Star Wars you might have already had it. Just don't burn out on this!!!

Of course, if anyone else knows a better way to correct the GOUT than what I'm doing, feel free to suggest something!

I know a way but unfortunately it will involve breaking into Lucasfilm, theft, and a possible jail term.

thanks - good to know, glad the JSC is not disappearing from view, don't have enough gigabytes (yet) to get this raw but good to know its an option

Can these files be played 'as is' on a computer media player or do they need additional processing? Or if they can will they look bad?

edited

Considering that, I might just settle with the current settings, or maybe tweak them slightly. Then I guess it's time to move on to ESB.

That's cool. At least you found out the limit to what can be done with the Gout with one setting/curve. Are you able to post a short clip in due course of one of the scenes thats come out most successful?

Of course they seem off. He hasn't corrected them yet! I won't say more though since he's asked us to keep it in his forum.

Understood. If you can get an invite to his forums he would probably be the best authority on what goes where, if he were willing to look at Gout correction.

pittrek said:

First of all - what are you trying to accomplish ? Are you trying to re-create the ORIGINAL colours of the theatrical version or are you trying to get colours which will "feel" correct ?

To me the aim would be the original colours - what the film looked like on the film inside the camera, not what it looked like in the real world outside the camera.

But thinking about what the real world looked like outside the camera might help in working back to what ended up in the camera by deduction.

Second, there's an obvious kinda yellow tint in that scene, at least in the shadows.

In GOUT, that scene is kinda cyan/blue-ish which means if I match it to that screenshot, more yellow scenes like some on Tatooine will be VERY yellow. The ending ceremony is also a bit too yellow already with my settings.

I think it's obvious that the GOUT comes from some much more inconsistent prints than the Senator version. Had the GOUT been sourced from a technicolor print, it would've been MUCH easier to dig up all that color the right way.

So bottom line, don't get your hopes up too high! I'm still trying to balance everything though, and to find a better way to increase saturation, so I might find a way to make it look better, but it won't ever be close to technicolor.

Well the way I imagine (i stress the word imagine) the light is falling and changing in the tantive corridor is like in this frame from 2001 - you see it can be blue in one corner and purple and yellow in another. Now the lighting in the tantive corridor wouldnt be anywhere as dark as this but this is how i explain the changes.

http://hopeliesat24framespersecond.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/7.jpg

The alternative is they were using different colour filters within the same sequence when shooting...

I can't really add any more ideas at this point without knowing more about how color correction is done. You may have to sit on this a while and wait for inspiration !

Look at the colours in this compared to those Legacy frames:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/14030018.jpg/

(All you have to do is make the GOUT match this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Yeah, Mike's screenshots are the best reference we have so far.

There's a bit more red in his shot though, but when I tried to increase red in mine, other shots looked too red. So I'm still trying to find the best balance!

Just an opinion but the colour in even Mike's screenshots seems 'off' somehow.

The resolution and detail are incredibly lifelike  - but not the colours somehow. 

 

I won't go for the look of the JSC though since in my opinion there's either too much yellow or too much green overall.

Is that yellow/green shift the colours decaying in the JSC print to create a light yellow/green haze filter-within-the-film? Imagine what the colours look like under that yellow/green haze or where those yellow/greens washed from?