Violet Jessop, “Miss Unsinkable.” She served on all three of the White Star Line Olympic Class liners when they had their infamous accidents (Olympic colliding with the HMS Hawke, Titanic’s iceberg collision, Britannic striking a mine) and survived all of them.
I’m continuing this from the Current Events thread because I have some questions that seem better suited here.
Current event that affects me (and the rest of the LGBTQ community) very personally.
I have read this article, which states:
“Sex means a person’s status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth,” the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring. “The sex listed on a person’s birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person’s sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence.”
Now, from what I’ve gathered elsewhere, and from the rest of this thread, is that gender and sex are two very different things. As such, I don’t really see how the bit quoted above is controversial, as that is what I’ve been led to believe for quite some time.
The main problem, far as I can tell, is that most laws were written before such a distinction was made, hence laws like Title IX will say that discrimination based on sex is not good, but did not make the distinction to mention gender. Have I got that right?
The article seems to be saying that the definition of sex itself is offensive, at least that’s the way it’s worded to me. Wouldn’t that be inaccurate?
Needless to say, I do think clarifying this all is necessary given how messy recent events have been, but to use it as an excuse to discriminate is abhorrent. It should be easy to see that all previous laws using “sex” should also extend to gender, seeing as they were written before there was such a distinction.
If I am misinformed, please do not hesitate to correct me. I don’t intend to be harmful, but this is how I’m currently understanding these events.
Reading the article, there seems to be an issue where it uses the terms sex and gender interchangeably, which muddies matters. Is the administration defining sex, or defining gender? The article said they were defining gender in the first two paragraphs, and then switched to saying they’re defining sex, and at least once switched back to saying they were defining gender. It could’ve used another editor, possibly one with some more experience with LGBT topics to help clarify what’s going on. That said, I think I have a rough understanding of what it’s trying to say.
The issue isn’t so much defining sex and gender as different. Canada has recently done that with C-16, though that was to make it clear that Gender identity and expression are protected concepts, rather than having to find relevant examples of case law which ruled that gender was protected by the same acts that protected sex.
Like you said, the issue is about the fact that this is an excuse to rollback protections. It would be one thing if they were doing an American equivalent of C-16, and then tighten up the definition of sex, but they’re not. They’re defining it so that they have an excuse to discriminate against trans people. They don’t intend on adding gender identity to Title IX; they want to erase that concept entirely.
Unrelated, but I’m actually kinda laughing at using chromosome tests to determine one’s sex like the administration suggests. There are a lot of problems with that, from Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, Klinefelter’s (XXY chromosomes), Turner Syndrome (only one X chromosome), cases where the SRY gene has been replicated on an X chromosome allowing for an XX chromosome male…
It’s kinda weird. Some of the most popular chaps here have been banned. I saw a post by Jay saying that these members were rude or some thin’ like that.
It’s a long story, and not one I want to get into in depth here. Suffice to say, the politics thread disappeared, and this is basically everyone’s response to that.
Congrats on your progress, Snooker! I hope everything works out in your favour.
What I’ve seen of the public debate over transgender issues, one side is talking about sex while the other is talking about gender identity.
You made a remark about the difference between gender identity and gender expression and I think that goes to the point that we’re not just talking gender as that term has been generally used, but rather this compound term gender identity.
Do you agree? Do you think there’s a way to bridge the gap so people are not talking past each other?
You’re not entirely wrong about there being conflation between physical sex and gender identity; however, I feel like I’m missing something in this statement. Like, I think I get what your saying, but I can’t quite grasp it as firmly as I’d like to. Maybe some examples of what you mean might help.
As far as trying to bridge the gap so that people aren’t talking past one another, the important thing is to listen. Listen to those affected, listen to the concerns of others so that they may be properly addressed…
I hope to better grasp it myself. It seems to me that there is physical sex, there is gender, and there is gender identity. As I understand it, gender identity can manifest in any number of ways and does not depend on making physical changes nor adopting any particular gender traits. But for all of these separate concepts, we use similar or the same terminology.
As an example of what I’m getting at, today in the news is the transgender cyclist’s win. And there are many comments that the win is unfair, that males are naturally stronger, etc. On its face this denies the gender identity of an athlete. But the objectors are speaking in terms of physical sex while the cyclist and allies are speaking in terms of gender identity. Neither side wants to recognize what they other is saying, it seems to me.
First, I wouldn’t consider gender identity and gender different things, as the difference between gender and sex is that the former is about how one identifies. Rather, it would be sex, gender, and gender expression.
With that out of the way, let’s dissect the example. While I don’t know the specifics of this case, I can say this: If she’s been on hormone therapy for a significant period of time, the advantage from testosterone is more or less nuked. In fact, it’s often possible for cis women competitors to have a higher testosterone than what medical professionals lowers a trans woman’s testosterone to. This has significant effects regarding muscle to fat ratios, as well as fat distribution.
Now, it doesn’t necessarily account for bone structure that she may have been born with. It’s possible that can also provide an advantage, but to my knowledge that has more to do with weightlifting and competitions of strength, rather than cycling.
The example to me seems to be more a case of talking past each other due to one side not being properly informed of the effects of HRT, and the other side refusing to educate.
What I’ve seen of the public debate over transgender issues, one side is talking about sex while the other is talking about gender identity.
You made a remark about the difference between gender identity and gender expression and I think that goes to the point that we’re not just talking gender as that term has been generally used, but rather this compound term gender identity.
Do you agree? Do you think there’s a way to bridge the gap so people are not talking past each other?
You’re not entirely wrong about there being conflation between physical sex and gender identity; however, I feel like I’m missing something in this statement. Like, I think I get what your saying, but I can’t quite grasp it as firmly as I’d like to. Maybe some examples of what you mean might help.
As far as trying to bridge the gap so that people aren’t talking past one another, the important thing is to listen. Listen to those affected, listen to the concerns of others so that they may be properly addressed…
WTF USA Today?
I mean, I guess they just wanted the ad revenue from having both the op-ed and the rebuttal. Or the Op-Ed process is looser than I thought. Still doesn’t sit right to have a sitting president write an op-ed to slam his political opponents.
Why isn’t the word palindrome a palindrome?
Hey congrats!
I guess that makes two of us!
Urge to use Nute Gunray meme, rising. . . .
Trust me, that was my first thought as well.
Hey congrats!
I guess that makes two of us!
Interesting. I’d need more examples to really be able to put myself in your shoes though.
What makes you think it’s not a psychological disorder? Or do you think that even if it is, the appropriate treatment is to undergo gender reassignment surgery or HRT, or alternatively, that it’s harmless enough that it’s pointless to label it as such?
OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, those who work in Psychology and Psychiatry believe that being trans in and of itself is not a disorder, but the distress that derives from it can be treated as if it were one. Indeed, the DSM-5 stresses that Gender Dysphoria is about the distress, not the fact that they identify as another gender identity. The International Classifications of Disease 11th edition, (the draft of which was released in June) will shift what it calls gender incongruence out of the mental health section, and into the section on Sexual health matters.
Thanks for the reply. It seems to me to be pretty arbitrary sometimes what is classified as a disorder and what isn’t–I recall the National Geographic article on transgenderism saying that an unusual amount of estrogen in a guy or testosterone in a woman was one cause of gender dysphoria, and other comparable biological phenomena could play a role as well. I googled the definition of “psychological disorder”, and it’s officially:
“A syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.”
My understanding was slightly different, but the definition still seems to apply to gender dysphoria. Clearly, the level of “disturbance” is much lower, but based on your anecdote about your friend having “vivid dreams of being a mother and [waking] up crying because that can’t happen” sounds like a disturbance in behaviour. The suicide rates of transgender people (regardless of whether they’ve transitioned) is abnormally high, which is strange if it isn’t in fact a disorder, unless the suicides are due to social rejection.
What think you?
The problem is mostly in the baggage the term disorder carries, as well as where that label begins and ends.
Would some parts of being trans fall under the clinical disorder label? Yes, very specific elements do. Namely dysphoria, which is defined specifically as the resultant distress. The diagnosis was changed to Gender Dysphoria because psychologists felt it described the problems they wanted to address in clients better than the old “Gender Identity Disorder” label did. It is a matter of curing the distress, not the variant identity.
However, most people who argue whether the disorder label applies are not arguing from this stance. Instead, the argument tends to go that the gender variance itself is disordered thinking, and that transition or supporting transition is an act of enabling said disorder. This, implies, if it’s not directly stated, that the cure shouldn’t be transition, and that transition makes us feel worse instead of better.
Now, of course, the people who make that argument tend to conveniently ignore that transition does help. Is the suicide rate still higher than average? Yes, but the fact that it goes down as much as it does after transition indicates that it’s worked better than alternatives. Why is it higher? I’m not an expert, but my guesses involve lack of positive depictions in media (it’s getting a little better now, but this was definitely a factor for the generation before me and when I grew up,) The possibility of friends and family ghosting you or turning hostile, the demonization from things like recent bathroom bills, dysphoria itself, how shitty access to transition care can be…
I could go on.
TL;DR:
It used to be labelled a disorder, but changing understanding of both dysphoria and what psychiatrists are aiming to cure led to a name that they felt was more accurate. Most people who srgue that it should be labelled a disorder still tend do be doing so from bad faith and a lack of understanding of the science behind it.
Wouldn’t have passed
And so do
In your OP you said that you’ve known since you were 17 and perhaps had some hints about yourself as far back as puberty, which seems perfectly reasonable.
I was wondering what your opinion is on those rare cases you hear of much younger, prepubescent children who identify as the opposite sex (which I think is okay in and of itself), who have parents who provide them with treatments such as hormone therapy and puberty blockers, which I think could be potentially quite harmful to a child’s development. Especially if it turns out that the child changes his mind and is not trans after all.
I mean, I remember liking girls at the age of six, but a lot can change between the ages of 6 and 12.
Thanks.
No one in the trans community is advocating for any sort of medical transition for prepubescent children. The Standards of Care for that age is all about treating them as they gender they identify as, and waiting to see what happens at puberty.
If the child decides to stop taking them, then the effects of blockers pretty quickly fade and puberty resumes as normal. It doesn’t actually cause transition, so much as give a teen more time to decide for sure. You aren’t allowed to start HRT proper until 16 usually, and the potential risks of harm stem more from having to be on blockers for that long, rather than doing that at all.
CatBus said:
Erm, well, I have high hopes for this thread at least 😉Thanks.
OK, in my defence, when I wrote that I had a presentation of Autism I had to attend in elementary school on my mind. It presented it as an acid trip, and not what autism was actually like, FWIW.
Interesting. I’d need more examples to really be able to put myself in your shoes though.
What makes you think it’s not a psychological disorder? Or do you think that even if it is, the appropriate treatment is to undergo gender reassignment surgery or HRT, or alternatively, that it’s harmless enough that it’s pointless to label it as such?
OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, those who work in Psychology and Psychiatry believe that being trans in and of itself is not a disorder, but the distress that derives from it can be treated as if it were one. Indeed, the DSM-5 stresses that Gender Dysphoria is about the distress, not the fact that they identify as another gender identity. The International Classifications of Disease 11th edition, (the draft of which was released in June) will shift what it calls gender incongruence out of the mental health section, and into the section on Sexual health matters.
Overall, transition (social or medical) is considered the primary cure for dysphoria. The medical field has tried to find ways to “cure” it without transition for decades, and transition has been the only one that reliably works.
As for my own level of offence to it: It’s not ideal to call it a disorder, but it has to show up somewhere in order for it to be covered by insurance (and considering the costs involved, most would rather insurance covered it). The problem is more that the people who usually call it a disorder or mental illness are usually doing so to imply that trans people are deluding themselves and that they should instead look for help to get a “cure,” and stop being trans.
I was going to ask if you were interested in reassignment surgery. I’ve not met many openly trans people, but the ones I have talked to have told me that they didn’t feel that they wanted or needed the surgery, which I was a bit surprised by. I just always assumed that surgery would be a primary goal or desire of transitioning people.
Undecided, personally. It’s actually not that uncommon to find non op trans people, but I’ve met the gamut of those who’re looking into getting it, people who want to but think the technology isn’t up to satisfaction yet, those who decided that the effects of hormone therapy are enough, and those who are undecided on the matter.
Another question. How do you feel about cisgendered actors playing trans characters? Movies like Boys Don’t Cry, which is one of my favorite movies, and others.
Generally, not really fond of it. It’d be, “not great but not bad,” when it’s cis people of the gender the trans character identifies as. The problem is that it’s usually trans women being played by cis men, which can get into some harmful stereotypes by reinforcing the idea that trans people are men in dresses with makeup.
And then there was that recent Scarlett Johansson controversy, where they were going to rewrite a real who trans dude into being a woman who dressed up as a man in order to get their way in life. Which is even worse. (so glad she rescinded that role.)
Do you know what I mean when I talk about acceptance without understanding? And do you have any words of wisdom or experience that might… not really solve the dilemma, because I think it’s always there… but maybe just show it in a different light?
I think I get you, though I have more experience with the overanalysis side you describe. It’ll be important for those close to those kids (particularly teachers, parents, and medical professionals), but not everyone else particularly needs to know the itty bitty details. For a lot of us, it’s more important that you stand by us even if you don’t fully understand, than to try too hard to be “validating.”
Then again, I’ve also found attempts to make the public, “understand what something is like,” tends to fall hilariously flat on its face, so I’m not really optimistic that trying to explain a deeper understanding than “she’s trans” is all that helpful.
What exactly does it mean to say that you are/were a woman in a man’s body? In other words, how did you know? How did you know you weren’t just a man with an above-average number of feminine characteristics? And if I’m using the wrong vocabulary in asking these questions, I apologize.
It doesn’t quite feel like, “a woman in the body of a man,” per se. Dysphoria is more of this nagging feeling that something’s not quite right, like if you wore you shirt backwards, except in my case it’s, “why are you growing facial hair? That doesn’t look right.”
Now the level of distress this causes varies from person to person. Myself, I get mildly annoyed. My friend? She has vivid dreams of being a mother and wakes up crying because that can’t happen. There are other still that would fall somewhere between.
As for, “why not just a feminine man?” Well, Gender expression versus Gender Identity is a long subject. Suffice to say, though, I’ve tried being a “feminine man,” and it falls flat for me. Heck, I’m not even especially feminine now, but the changes from HRT make me feel more comfortable in my skin than anything I could do relating to my presentation.
Trans Topics for Cis Dummies
This needs to be a thread. I’d like to learn more of the trans perspective.
I’ve been meaning to start one for a while, actually, but life has a way of keeping me from doing so.
I’ll get it done when I get back from my prescription pick up.
That would be great.
If it’s not too much to ask, what’s your sexual orientation and what impact did it play on the evolution of your gender identity? Are you attracted to women, and did that make it harder for you to realize you’re a transwoman? Did you initially think you were a gay man? Or was sexual attraction completely irrelevant?
Bisexual. It had… some kind of impact. My early sexual exploration was in some ways intertwined with my early exploration of my gender identity, but at the time I didn’t really have it fully formed in my head that being trans was a possible outcome. Rather, it was in this nebulous, “Hmm… I wonder what it’s like to be a woman?” kind of way.
That said, looking back, it explains a lot about why I’m attracted to men even though gay media didn’t do anything for me.
Have you had support from family, or are they hesitant or outright antagonist? If it isn’t too personal to ask.
For the most part, it’s been a positive reception, thankfully (as I’m still having a hard time finding suitable employment). I had my concerns about receiving negativity from both sets of my grandparents, but for better or worse, they’ve all died before I had to approach them about it.
Most likely Trump has had absolutely no part in this thing. I bet it’s just government inertia since it was passed a couple years ago.
From my understanding, it came from government regulation in 2015 that this would have a test every three years, and 2018 just happens to be that three year mark.
A bit, yeah. I still have anxiety issues, definitely, but the way I feel about myself is different, if not necessarily all positive. It’s kind of like, “Now I feel blue, but that’s ok, because before I only felt grey.”
This has been a thread I’ve wanted to do for a while, but wasn’t sure how much traction it’d have. That said, the recent discussion in the Religion thread seems to indicate that there is a niche that warrants its existence. It is said that the best way to absorb what you learn is to teach it to others. I’m hoping that by discussing the subject with others, I in turn can better understand my own thoughts and feelings on the matter.
I’ll start with a primer of myself, so we have a baseline of where I’m coming from. I am a 22 year old Transgender woman. That means I identify as female, and prefer to be referred to as such. I’ve known this about myself since I was 17 (2014), but if I wanted to, I could dig into my life deep enough to find hints about it as far back as puberty, or maybe even before. I have been on hormone replacement therapy (HRT) since January 23, 2018, or for about 8 months as of the time of writing this. I’m still waiting for the government to process my change of name and gender designation application, but if everything goes well, it’ll be completed by the end of the month. (JEDIT: Certificate for change of name just arrived! WHOO!)
So now, I open the doors for you. Ask your questions, but try to be respectful. I’m still human, after all.
Trans Topics for Cis Dummies
This needs to be a thread. I’d like to learn more of the trans perspective.
I’ve been meaning to start one for a while, actually, but life has a way of keeping me from doing so.
I’ll get it done when I get back from my prescription pick up.
Another example of Christian opposition to freedom:
If you call the normalization of mental illnesses freedom, then sure. Gender dysphoria is contagious among certain segments of the population, so I have a hard time believing that it’s normal and healthy to believe you’re in the wrong body. What happened to telling people to be happy with their body and the way they are?
Oh, buddy… Are you sure you want to have this conversation with me? We’re going to have this conversation. ROGD is a sham based upon a faulty study that was quickly rescinded. In particular, it only ever surveyed the parents of the teens, who have met on a “support forum.” In this context, of course it seemed sudden; teens are notorious for hiding things from their parents, especially if they believe the parents would be unnaccepting of it.
If you asked the teens themselves, they’re going to give you a far different answer. Probably something along the lines of, “It felt like something was off about me for the longest time, but it wasn’t until I met other people like me that I began to piece it all together and accept it.” It’s not that these teens are “catching the Trans,” it’s that they’re starting to meet others and not feel so alone about it.
OK, interesting. There was something in the article I linked to about some of the girls who identified as guys reverting back to identifying as girls after a year or so. I didn’t see an explanation for that in the article you’re linking to (not saying there isn’t one, just that I’m still kind of curious about it).
JEDIT: Oh, and I missed that you typed that out in response to people protesting drag queens. Drag. Queens. Believe it or not, Drag performers are not trans people. Well, not inherently. There are definitely trans people who either enjoy drag, or use it to explore their own feelings of themselves. However, just as many, if not more drag performers are cisgender, and just use drag as a performative art.
Desistance/detransition is a separate subject, though not entirely unrelated. Detransitioners (people who began transition but then stopped) are rare. However, most of the ones I’m familiar with all support transition, and access to transition care.
Also, note how these stories tend to focus on transmasculine individuals. Transfeminine individuals are conveniently overlooked, despite normally dominating the media discussing trans individuals. Focusing on the AFAB detransitioners supports the narratives of the bigoted, as their reasons for originally desiring transition (sexual trauma or misogyny) play right into the bigot narrative of why trans men exist.
By contrast, when trans women detransition (and they’re more likely to detransistion than transmasculine individuals), it’s usually because they get treated with suspicion and bigotry, compounded with the fear they won’t ever pass and always be seen as visibly trans. More often than not, they’ll also retransition at some point. A mighty inconvenient truth for the people who want to gatekeep transition care.
Desistors, (people who stopped IDing as trans before transition) Some might just be cis (and/or gender nonconforming), but there’s also the chance that they desisted because of the barriers that go into transition. Remember, as a child or teen, the hurdles that get between them and transition is terrifying. Likewise, repression is a common coping tactic among trans people early on, even if they have a supportive family or friend circle. It is especially more likely if you suspect or know that they aren’t supportive.
Well duh, they’re not necessarily trans people. I may misunderstand their intention, however. I thought the purpose was generally to support people who identify as transgender.
The people protesting it in the article don’t seem to realize there’s a difference. More often than not, it tends to work in my favour to assume people don’t get the difference, as well.
Drag is usually not trans support. Heck, Ru Paul, one of the more famous drag queens, is frequently decried for his transphobia. Likewise, terminology that drag performers may use to refer to themselves would be insulting to refer to Trans people as.