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danaan

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13-Dec-2011
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Post
#564312
Topic
'Why the SW prequels are better than the OT' - article inside
Time

I'd just like to add that Tim's idea that there is "simplistic" morality in the OT is simply false. He must have missed the entire ROTJ climax. The situation is:

If Luke kills the bad guys, he becomes a bad guy.

If Luke does not fight, he will be killed.

So, Luke can't win by fighting, but he also can't avoid the fight! That's a very precise moral dilemma (which the PT, btw, ruins), and one that, in my opinion, separates SW from just about all other popculture movies of this general genre. In those, it's rather all about vigilante style justice. In SW, it's your actions that define you as good or evil, not which badge or uniform you happen to wear.

As for the rest, it's simply the same old PT-fan line: the PT had cool themes, ergo it's good. As if execution didn't matter.

Edit: Oh, and I can add that the notion of "flawed Jedi" is true, the jedi in the PT are supposed to be flawed, that is an integral part of the PT thematic framework....but the ground work for that thematic framework is actually laid down by the OT. The Jedi HAVE to be flawed, because the Emperor MUST win - if he doesn't, the two trilogies won't connect. So, way to ignore how the groundwork laid by the OT dictates the premises of the PT...

Post
#559496
Topic
Prequel Rewriters - Questions to think about
Time

<div>The Setting</div>
<div> The War</div>
<div> Are you focusing on the Clone Wars?</div>
<div> YES:</div>
<div> Who are the Clones?</div>


They are a stop-gap measure to fill serious manpower shortages in the Republic armed forces. The ulterior motive is to militarize the Republic for the purposes of abolishing its democracy.

<div> How does the War pertain to them?</div>


They become the very convenient tool suddenly available to the Republic when it comes under the attack from the Separatists.

<div> What about the Clone Wars would cause Obi-Wan to refer to them as an "idealistic crusade"? What were the ideals? How was it a crusade?</div>

It's not Obi-Wan who makes that reference, it's Owen. And he does it because he considers them politics in its most destructive form. In some ways, he's right.

<div> How does Cloning become irrelevant by the start of Episode 4?</div>

The personnel issues have been solved through conscription and seriously increased volunteer recruitment, fuelled by the Chancellor's very effective propaganda.

<div> How is cloning limited to the point that the whole story doesn't get consumed by the idea of clones replacing major players?</div>


Well, since it's a stop gap measure, the Clones are used as just that- a disposable tool. Major players are established before the Clones come onto the stage.

<div> If Symmetrical:</div>
<div> How does War work exactly? How does hyperspace affect a galaxy wide war?</div>


This war will be very WWI-like. Hyperspace affects movements of troops, for sure, but since trade moves along established hyperspace lanes and planets are the resource base, there is still something to be said for frontlines and supply lines, which will dictate how troop movements can be made to achieve war objectives.

<div> Does your story feature "soldiers"? Who are they? Are the main characters soldiers in the War? Leia's and Ben's comments seem to indicate that they were.</div>


Yes, they will become involved in the war. Also, we'll meet the fighter squadron Anakin serves with, as well as a band of Mandalorians that act as good foils for the heroes.


<div> Who are the armies? Does the Republic have its own army, or do each of the independent planets have their own armies?</div>

The Republic does have its own army, but it starts out desperately underfunded and badly organized.

Who is the enemy large enough that this is a full scale war?</div>


This is the Separatists, a Confederation of systems that leave the Republic because of their belief in system independence. They have enough resources to field some considerable forces, but like the Republic, they supplement regular troops with some disposable troops, in their case droids.

<div> When did/does the War start?</div>


It stats when Anakin is about 25, old enough to have had some Jedi training and also some training as a fighter pilot.

<div> How does the War end?</div>


Roughly, with the end of Republic democracy and the defeat of the Separatists.

<div>Continiuity to the OT:</div>
<div> Do you show Obi-Wan receiving training from Yoda?</div>


No. He's much to old to still be an apprentice at the start of the story, particularly since the story starts with Obi-Wan becoming Anakin's mentor, indicating that he is old enough to be a Jedi Master in his own right.

<div> Do you show Anakin receiving training from Obi-Wan?</div>


Yes, some.

<div> Are Obi-Wan and Anakin friends? When do they have the chance to establish this friendship</div>


Absolutely. They are repeatedly bonding and showing their loyalty to each other, to the point of interfering with their proper roles as Mentor and apprentice.


<div> How many years before Episode 4 does your story take place and how old are the main characters?</div>


About 30-20 years before. Anakin goes from age about 20 to about 30. Obi-Wan from about 35-45. Etc.


<div> Will you show Yoda?</div>


As my story currently stands, yes. I've been thinking about this, and I'm still thinking about it, but at this point, it would be strange to not have Yoda be at least an actor of some significance. If the Clone Wars is the biggest conflict the galaxy has seen in 1000 generations, the greatest living Jedi is not likely to sit on the sidelines or meditate in a swamp.


<div> Will you show that Luke has a twin sister? Named Leia?</div>

My current plan is yes.

<div> Will you reveal that Anakin becomes Darth Vader? </div>

Yes. I can't see how it would be possible to not show this, unless the story ends before the Anakin-Obi-Wan duel, and Anakin actually goes off screen before he turns to the Dark side. Since Anakin is my main character, that is not going to work very well.


<div> Will you have surprises in your new PT? Will it affect anything that we thought we already knew in the OT? Be careful, you will most likely just tick people off, unless it is done EXTREMELY well.</div>


I don't know if anything I bring to the table will be considered such a surprise.


<div> How does the Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith conflict play into the back story of the War, if at all?</div>

It's important. The Jedi are convinced the Sith are extinct, and end up on a wild bantha chase because of this assumption. Little do they suspect...and when they finally realize, they are already at a disadvantage.


<div> If it does, then how does the Galaxy allow for a Dark Jedi/Sith/Palpatine to be left in charge of the Empire when all is said and done?</div>


Because he holds power as the Executive of the government of the Republic turned into the Empire. I doubt many people in government realize that he is a Sith lord, or even that he is a Force user, and those who do are too concerned with saving their own hides to challenge him.

<div> How many Jedi are we talking about here? A handful like the OT? Two-three handfuls like the GPT? Or a lot a lot?</div>


The Jedi order is, at start, big. Likely several hundred or even thousand. Of course, the Clone Wars will cull their numbers quite considerably.


<div> How many Dark Jedi/Sith? Please say not 2 per movie.</div>

2 in total over the trilogy.


<div> What kind of powers do the Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith have beyond those seen in the OT? </div>


I can't see that I'm giving them any new ones, though I have been thinking about battle meditation. The thing is that in theory a Jedi could become extremely powerful. Many feel that The Force Unleashed-style is way OTT, but in principle, it's the consequence of Yoda's words "only in your mind it is different". So, a good story needs to manage that principle without delivering something that looks just ridiculously godlike.


<div> What is the Galaxy's general response to Jedi? Are they all assumed to be heroes? Or are people more like Han where they think that it's all religious nonsense?</div>


Actually, none of the above. I think most take them seriously as wielders of great power, but I also think that most are incredibly suspicious of them. They wield powers that no non-force user can understand, and no one can really control them, certainly not the Republic government. So, they're really creepy wizards, who go where they please and do things based on "a hunch" or something like that, and can't be held accountable. Palpatine will be able to exploit this distrust extensively.


<div> How do your Jedi dress? (Please say it's not in "I'm disguised as a hermit" robes.)</div>

It's the Obi-Wan robes. Sorry. They're just iconic and fit the manifestation of a Shaolin-monk-in-space very well.


<div> How organized are the Jedi? Are they like a police force in space (like the Green Lantern Corps?) or are they more like wizards that are off doing their own thing and maybe have some form or correspondance or a council every now and then? Or something less than that?</div>

They are kind of like the Knights Templar meets the Shaolin monks, except there's only the one temple (with hyperspace travel, there little need for more than one).


<div>Where does the Empire come from? From within the crumbling Republic or without? If from within, are the forces that cause the crumbling also responsible for the War and are they manipulating to create an Empire as in George's PT?</div>

Yup. It's a false flag operation, all right. Palpatine=Hitler/Napoleon/Augustus...


<div>How do the droids fit in to your new story, if at all?</div>
<div> Probably shouldn't have strong connections to Anakin or Obi-Wan (i.e. The "main characters")</div>


What droids? No, really, I couldn't find a way to fit them in, even though I know Lucas wants them to be the "Greek Choir" of his epic saga. I'm not going to squeeze them in shoe-horn style just to have them there. That said, if I can find a way to incorporate them without creating some serious continuity problems, I will.


<div>How is Anakin seduced by the Dark Side? What convinces him to serve the Emperor, the Empire and the Dark Side for 20+ years before allowing Luke to show him the error of his ways.</div>


Anakin is set on it through the path of good intentions. But once you get a taste of it, you're stuck. I treat the Dark side like a drug, Anakin like an addict, and the Emperor like his dealer.


<div>Who is the main protagonist in your films? Luke is clearly the main protagonist in the OT. In my opinion, the gPT has problems because the protagonist changed with the movie billing: E1 - QuiGonn Jinn, E2 - Obi-Wan Kenobi, E3 - Anakin.</div>
<div>- I clearly think that Anakin should be the main protagonist as a point of comparison that Luke is the protagonist of the OT. However, I am running into trouble, probably the same way George did, because I have Obi-Wan finding Anakin. In the OT, Luke finds Obi-Wan. This right off the bat seems to set up Obi-Wan as the character making choices, making things happen, driving the story... AKA the Protagonist.</div>

My protagonist at this stage is Anakin, though I also wrestle with the dilemma of Obi-Wan as the finder of Anakin in Ep 1.

Post
#558998
Topic
star wars episode 1 redone idea
Time

Avatar said:



Wexter said:

Some very bold ideas in there, looking forward for some more. 

How does Anakin Lars become Anakin Skywalker in your vision?


the idea was because of his reputation as a pilot and a jedi, many began to refer to him as "the skywalker"


A couple of observations, if I may. Many have wondered how Vader did not find out about Luke for 20 years, seeing as he was living under the name of Skywalker. Why didn't he go to Tatooine when Luke was 10 and just grab him. If Skywalker is not just another surname, but rather the mark of the best pilot of the galaxy, this problem becomes quite emphasized.

Secondly, starting Obi-Wan that age 25 might have some implications, too. For instance, in ANH, Vader states that "your powers have grown weak, old man". That is, in my impression, a way you'd address someone who is quite markedly your senior - 10 years would seem appropriate. If Anakin and Obi-Wan gets too close in age, that line is somewhat challenged.

Moreover, Obi-Wan is about 60ish in ANH. If you start him at 25, the Prequel will likely span over about 15 years (until Luke is born). That's the same time span of the official PT, and I felt it was difficult to maintain the cohesiveness of the narrative with such a long timespan.

Just my .02

Post
#558995
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:



danaan said:


I'm honestly not sure that building monuments would be the Jedi's thing. I mean, their focus is distinctly beyond the physical, "luminous beings are we", and all that, and such ultimately worldly edifices seem too material for them to really be too concerned with. 

 


 

I see your point, danaan. The Jedi always were champions of the metaphysical. Showing Yoda to be a little guy illustrates that, and having the Jedi build monuments would piss all over that message.

As for other things...I'm not keen on showing the precise origins of certain elements found in the OT. My prequels don't show the inceptions of the Empire, the Stormtroopers, or the Skywalker twins. Having those things committed to film feels more like wanky wish-fulfillment than anything else.

I show the early actions of the Empire and Stormtroopers, but not the exact moment Palpatine pondered, "Hey, you know what? Imagine how fun it would be to rule the galaxy as a fascist dictator."

And while one of the trilogy's other villains can arguably be called "the first Stormtrooper", we do not see the origin of the corps as a whole.

Likewise, the births of Luke and Leia are never seen because the preceding events are far more suitable as the climax of a space opera trilogy. Same for the Vader suit. The last we see of Anakin in Episode III is a bloodied, screaming embodiment of rage, barely clinging to life after suffering horrific burns.

 


That sounds very interesting. I look forward to having a look!

Post
#558557
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


danaan, I'm at the first scene of The Old Order; there's a nice Star Warsy, swashbuckling feel to it. 


Thank you!

McFlabbergasty said:


Episode II is proving to be a real pain to write. It's the most complex of my three film ideas; as of now it contains Anakin's conversion, the rise of the Empire, the endgame of the Clone Wars, and some big character revelations that cast the OT in a different light.

I'm trying to mold Episode II in a manner similar to ESB: love story at the center of the plot, big reveal at the climax, the audience learns some new things about the Force, the protagonist desperately limps towards a cliffhanger ending...and the Empire plays Tom to the Alliance's Jerry.

Also: tonally speaking, the feeling for the end of the trilogy that I am going for can be aptly summarized by the section of the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOOmeaNBPwI&feature=related" target="_self">ESB finale track</a> that runs from 00:59 to 02:23. In fact, it would be a dream come true if I could include that track in the final cut of the film!


Best of luck!

Post
#558288
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


I'm in the process of thinking of Force-related things for my Jedi to do. One idea is to have them aid in recovery efforts through the use of their healing powers, off-setting a shortage of bacta. Or using TK powers to help free civilians from structures damaged by clone fleet bombardments. The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, right?

As for non-war stuff, I'm considering having the Jedi use their TK to craft awe-inspiring monuments to fallen heroes of yore. They could also use their mental abilities to sooth the minds of others, the lighter side of the Jedi mind trick, which could potentially mediate disputes between belligerent parties.

Since the Empire doesn't show up in Episode I: In the Age of Jedi, there's plenty of opportunity to devote screen-time to showing what was lost when Palpatine and Vader enacted their dark crusade. Then it's time to show how the Jedi are brought to their knees in Episode II: The Dark Times Begin....then finally capping things off with a desperate chase towards the last glimmer of hope left in the galaxy, in Episode III: War of the Skywalkers.

Edit: Still unclear whether I ought to title Episode I In the Age of Jedi or In the Age of the Jedi. Any suggestions, folks?


I'm honestly not sure that building monuments would be the Jedi's thing. I mean, their focus is distinctly beyond the physical, "luminous beings are we", and all that, and such ultimately worldly edifices seem too material for them to really be too concerned with. However, the other suggestions are excellent. It would be an excellent idea to show Jedi involved with non-combat stuff. In fact, I'm thinking about re-writing a training sequence in my Ep 1 precisely to illustrate non-warrior aspects instead.

Post
#558204
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

CWBorne said:


Featuring other Jedi is a tricky game because you need to build audience interest and care regarding all the other knights and masters, but you don't want to diminish the nature of Kenobi or Skywalker by having a bunch of other people do what they do. My compromise is to have various others appear and play their parts, but many of them are not as involved directly with the armed forces like Ben and Anakin.

You have Jedi medics, pilots, builders, engineers, the works. Prior to the war starting there's references to Jedi creating music, art, writing, all kinds of things. Make it clear that being in touch with the Force went beyond just defensive and offensive moves in combat, and that something genuinely beautiful was lost when they were wiped out. Put Luke's journey in the original films as just beginning to regain the extent of what being a Jedi with the Force really meant. 

I've also been debating whether or not to hint at their mythology and lore, with Ben telling Anakin of the legend about Darth Vader, the earliest known Jedi to have turned to the dark side (which he did in order to supposedly save his fellow knights from extinction), with Skywalker later taking the name in the third prequel as a personal act of defiance against Kenobi. 


Certainly it's tricky. That's kinda the point ;P. You want to show what the state of Jedihood is, but also try to give them personalities. It's a careful balance to strike, but I believe it's a necessary component to give the story its full potential.

Post
#558164
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


That would certainly be interesting to see, where Leia got her spunkiness from. Is Darelda a statesman in your draft, or does she have a different occupation?

I'm actually trying to focus as much as possible on new characters. Currently, the only OT characters we ever see are Anakin, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and Bail Organa. And no Lucas PT-exclusive characters ever appear.

Ben Cortel is simultaneously known and unknown to the audience when we see his exploits in the PT. I am trying to set things up so that his influence can be "felt" upon re-watching the OT.

I think Ben is well-grounded in the reality constructed by the OT because his name was actually uttered several times.

Some of Ben's character traits transfer by osmosis to Obi-Wan, Luke, and Han. He finds a greater destiny to pledge himself to, in a manner similar to Luke in the OT. Ben also addresses my concern with the PT that there was no suave, free-wheeling, lady-killer type of character like Han was in the OT. I consciously avoided casting any wise and venerable older Jedi Knights as a protagonist for fear of falling into the same traps as the Lucas PT.


Interesting. I do the exact opposite, partially because I want to challenge Lucas' ideas, and show how his themes could been done in a good way ;P. Also, since the path of the Jedi is so important to understand, I think it is important to show how these people should have acted, what ideals they embody, and, above all, how they could be plausible flawed. That is, after all, the core theme of the story.

So, I do use Mace Windu and others. Also, these characters have an image, it's easy to conjure up their faces to the mind's eye, and since SW is a very visual story, I think that dimension is important, at least to me.

Post
#557757
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


So Palpatine's pre-Vader apprentice has a personality of his/her own? It sounds better than Lucas' tripe already.


You be the judge! You'll find my story linked in a different thread: SW Ep 1: The Old Order.

Essentially, I am using Darth Maul, as inspired by the Darth Maul trailer. In other words, Fear-man...that was never really present in the movie...

Btw, I like your choice of a femal bad guy!

Post
#557734
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

As implied above, I think one important element here is to throw Palpatine some curve balls. He has plans, and, while he will come out victorious (obviously), even he needs to be foiled every once in a while. Through opposites doeth the path proceed. I'm thinking of tensions between him and Darth Vader's predecessor might be one good way to go, but also just having the Senate or others refuse his will here and there, just to show that his ambition does run into obstacles and barriers that he needs to overcome. This is something I'm thinking of particularly for Ep 2, where he has a much more central role to play, being the Chancellor.

Post
#557661
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:

Going by your interpretation, it seems Bail Organa inadvertently got the whole military-police-state ball rolling, but regretted that later seeing as he is Rebel-aligned in ANH. He was killed by the monster he helped create.


This adds an interesting layer of complexity to his character!


That's the idea! :)

McFlabbergasty said:


By not showing *precisely* how everyone got to the physical locations they were in when we first saw them in the OT, I hope to avoid Lucas' mistake of treating the audience like a bunch of idiots.


Hell, I'm even thinking of scrapping Yoda's lone appearance and not showing Vader donning his black suit. Those kinds of scenes would serve no purpose in my treatment, other than pointless wanking.


Agreed. I'm currently toying with have a Vader with some scars, and some machine-augmentations, but not the full suit, because, in the words of Mr. Plinkett "Did he just have that thing lying around?" The suit really seems like something Vader would have planned and worked on over a longer period of time...

Post
#557660
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

CWBorne said:


I definitely think showing an outright turn from Republic to Empire is excessive. Its why my current treatment just has Palpatine declaring himself Chancellor for life, and nothing else. The implication of what he's going to do, and how the institution was perverted and corrupted into despotism, works much better in the audience's imagination. then anything shown on screen. In ANH the size of the star destroyer, the stormtrooper's assault, the appearance of Vader; all of that completely tells you what's happened to the galaxy in the 20 years since, all without literally saying anything. Ideally the reaction of going from the third prequel to A New Hope should be one of shock and horror at how bad things have gotten, particularly when we see what happens to Beru and Owen. 


Those are all quite valid points! Interesting suggestion. I'll have to think about that myself.

Post
#557647
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

I'm still skecthing mine out, but essentially it goes something like this.

In Episode 1, we see Palpatine behind a manufactured crisis, much like in the official canon. Only in my case it's a coup d'etat on Alderaan, which draws Bail Organa in and creates a scandal between isolationists and federalists in the Republic Senate. Palpatine can use this to get elected chancellor.

In Episode 2, the isolationists turn into the Separatists and attack the Republic, starting the Clone War (though it's not known by that name at the time). The Republic is under heavy assault, and has an outdated military organization. Bail Organa redesigns the organizational structure, replacing the old fractured one with something more centralized. As a result, the Republic lives to fight another day, and Palpatine can use the success to win a second term.

In Episode 3, the war has dragged on, scarring the Republic. Important resources are being rationed and there is increased xenophobia and suspicion, seeing as the Separatists and mostly non-humans. Martial law is instituted and the Chancellors office gets transformed into the office of the Emperor.

And that's the real conundrum for me. Why would he choose that name for the new offiice? As mentioned, the name "Empire" probably comes across as something negative. The administration will want people to think of the name as something positive. So, there must be something that makes Palpatine suggest changing the name from Chancellor to Emperor as a symbol of the good things to come. Not sure what that is yet.

----
Obi-Wan says he hasn't gone by the name of "Obi-Wan" since "oh, before you were born."

Post
#557590
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


After the debacle that was the Battle of Coruscant, the remnants of the Republic's military and citizenry separated themselves into two distinct groups: the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" and the "Galactic Empire".

Yes. The Rebels are in all six films. The Empire isn't seen until Episode II, though. It was formed some time between when the first film and the second film take place (25 BBY and 21 BBY, respectively).

For four fiery years these factions worked together to crush the clone menace, even while holding starkly-differing views on what the post-War galaxy should look like.

The Alliance wanted a constitutional, representative government composed of equal parts all known sentient species. The Empire demanded Human supremacy and loyalty to its supreme leader, Palpatine, above all else. 

How the Empire won, at least until the events of the OT, is one of the major stories I am trying to tell in my prequels.


Interesting. Not to be nitpicky, but how do you relate that to the framing of the war in the OT as a "Civil War" (I think that's the first line in the ANH text scroll). This implies that there is a feeling or conceptualization that the (a great deal of) the Galaxy should be ruled by one government, but that the current one is not legitimate. If the split occurs before Episode 1, into two governmental entities, both with administrative power over a territory, and this split continues for some 30 years, when the perception of the War being a "civil" one might be challenged. In other words, you'll need the Empire firmly in control of most of the territory before the end of Ep 3.

On another note, and an issue I'm wrestling with: how did the Palpatine government become named "Empire"? Labels are important, and they need to be seen as legitimate. For a political culture where some form of democracy has been entrenched for "a thousand generations", the label "Empire" is likely quite loaded with negative sentiments. I'm wrestling with this myself.

Post
#557200
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

[quote=McFlabbergasty]




I think the main problem with Lucas' execution of the Republic's political unraveling was two-fold: 1) We never see how Palpatine's rule affected the common man on the street and 2) There was too much kriffing C-SPAN going on.



I agree with 1), but not with 2). That is to say, I don't think the politics is the core problem, but rather the fact that Lucas utterly fails in creating a plausible political environment.

Some examples:

1) A non-senator can enter a motion of non-confidence in the Chancellor. What legislative assembly would allow that?

2) A Republic with no armed forces of its own? At least some of these senators will be elected, and the chancellor is, but they have no control over the only group of law enforcement agents in the Galaxy: the Jedi. That defies logic completely.

3) Having Amidala sign the treaty with the TF would actually legalize the invasion and make the crisis go away, achieving the opposite of what Palps wants. A real world example where this actually happened is the Chinese invasion of Tibet, which ended with the Tibetan government forced to sign a treaty legalizing the Chinese occupation.

4) A non-senator can enter a motion to give the Chancellor emergency powers.

5) The strong opposition to the Military Creation Act suddenly disappears because Amidala is not there. Given how long she had struggled with this motion and how potent her group was before the movie starts (indicated by the opening scroll), this is just baffling. Surely, these same Senators would at least offer some resistance to giving Palps so much power?

If the social dynamics work, a political plot can also work. I am convinced of this.

Post
#557187
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


Thanks, danaan. Pretty big oversight on my part. When Leia was talking about her father, was she referring to Bail Organa? It doesn't seem like she knew her father was Vader at that point.

 


I would assume so. I don't think anyone in the OT actually names Leia's foster-parents by first name.

Yet, at some point she likely does tell at least Luke that she is a foster-child, because in ROTJ Luke asks her about memories of her mother, adding "your real mother." So, it seems logical that "her father" in that holo-message would have been Bail, particularly since Anakin was Obi-Wan's apprentice, and thus not likely to end up in a position where he would have been commanding his mentor.

Post
#557146
Topic
How would you handle the transition from Republic to Empire?
Time

McFlabbergasty said:


I've always felt that ROTS's changing of the Galactic Republic into the Galactic Empire always felt too much like flipping a light switch. Sure there was political build-up, but on the whole I thought the events felt too forced and sudden.

Personally, my prequel re-write has the Republic dissolve several years before the formation of the Empire. After a clone fleet surprises Coruscant by bombarding the seat of government with orbital fire, the Republic fractures into my disorganized warlord factions.

Ostensibly the Republic remnant factions are allied with each other, but they have little trust for each other. For much of the Clone Wars, the clones rule the galaxy. It is only when the strong-man political leader and military officer Admiral Palpatine steps into the forefront that this rabble of fleets and armies is united into a galaxy-spanning Empire.


On one level, that is a very appealing construct. It allows the storyteller to simply exchange "Empire" for "Clones" as bad guys, making them easily identifiable. It might also lessen the amount of Galatic C-SPAN one would have to do, with a pretty straightforward way for Palpatine to rise to power.

However, I'm not sure I would be satisfied with it. I feel that the theme of "the path from democracy to dictatorship" is a very appealing one, and telling the story of how Palpatine went from Senator to Dictator is one that fits the fall of Anakin Skywalker very well, as a parallell. It's one I'd like to see told. So, my problem with the official version was the execution, rather than the theme.

I think the key to doing this is to take care and build a plausible political setting, which Lucas did not do. In other words, the Republic and the Senate need to function in a convincing fashion.

Post
#556873
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

CWBorne said:


My current treatment actually as Mother Skywalker as a bit of a quirky wrench wench engineer type who actually worked with and knew Anakin before he ever met Kenobi. Character wise, you can actually see a bit of their kids personalities in them: Anakin with his daughter's iron determination and son's passion towards being a Jedi, Mother Skywalker with Leia's warmth and Luke's wide eyed farm boy impression of the galaxy (and a shared knack for mechanical work). 


That sounds really interesting, actually! Could turn out really well, depending on how it's done, of course ;P

Post
#556799
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

piestrider said:


<span style="color: #ffffff; font-family: verdana, geneva, arial, helvetica, 'sans serif'; line-height: 17px; text-align: left; background-color: #484e5e; ">Please enlighten us as to what personality Padme had beyond "Important Senator", what personality Maul had beyond "Silent Assassin", and what personality Windu had beyond "Stoic Jedi".</span>

A very good question. The short answer was famously indicated in RedLetterMedia's review of the prequel trilogy in which fans of the series gushed over Darth Vader and Han Solo but were at a loss to explain any significant details about prequel characters. My longer answer is to rewrite these characters. 

A very good place to start would be the nature of the Jedi Order. If they really did have a temple system with a rigid hierarchy whose members were sworn protectors of the realm, I suppose that it makes sense for them to follow a very strict moral and ascetic code. As such, I have always pictured Mace Windu as a Paladin, a lawful good paragon whose main goal is to root out evil at any cost, regardless of the consequences. Regarding the portrayal of the character by Samuel L Jackson, Mace Windu and he are one in the same in my mind and to separate them would violate the image many fans have in their head of what he looks and sounds like.

I do believe that Star Wars and the Jedi in particular were inspired by eastern mysticism and so the idea that all the masters of the Jedi Order have to agree is a bit ridiculous. As such, I would portray Yoda as exemplifying an ancient, more passive version of what it means to be a Jedi, whereas Windu would embody a more aggressive, activist approach. And with great power comes great responsibility, as Jorus C'Baoth learned aboard Outbound flight. The real tension of the prequel trilogy should revolve around not just the tension within the Jedi Order and its downfall bu also the tension between force users and non force users in the galaxy. Are the Jedi obsolete without the republic?

As for Amidala, I was intrigued by the idea of forbidden romance between her an Anakin. Ways to make this work better would be 1) if they were the same age and 2) if they were both Jedi in training. I have always believed that the Jedi were forbidden to marry for fear of the powerful offspring that such a union would produce. Given that the slide to the dark side is fraught with peril, Jedi dynasties could easily take control of non-force users. Amidala could still be from Naboo and highborn but it would be a lot more interesting to write scenes where she and Anakin are sparring and training in the force and get very close to intimacy but must constantly back away and deny their emotions and feelings for each other. The denial of self required by all Jedi would be a constant source of tension for young acolytes. 

Finally, I believe that Darth Maul would better serve as the source of Anakin's obsessive crusade to destroy the Sith as inspired by Mace Windu. To do this, I would throw out the rule of two. I picture an old Sith Master (Darth Plagueis) who trained Maul, Dooku, and his final pupil Palpatine, killed him in his sleep. As per the thrawn trilogy canon, I would make Darth Maul the master of the clones who are held in check by his dark force powers. Dooku would seek to sow the seeds of civil war and split the outer rim from the core worlds. Palpatine would seek to consolidate his political power over the core worlds, institute human high culture, subjugate the outer rim, and exterminate the Jedi. If Darth maul becomes the great white whale, then Anakin becomes his Ahab and thus the slide to the dark side occurs as a result of obsession with vanquishing evil. 


I agree with the notion of making Maul Anakin's white whale. It's nicely mythological and makes it personal in a way it should not be for a Jedi.

However, I get the feeling that turning Padme into a Jedi, while popular among many fanfic writers, gets to be "too many lightsabers". I.e. it creates some sort of Jedi inflation in the story, which makes me uncomfortable with the idea. It's probably important to have some significant characters be non-Jedi.

Post
#556694
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

thejediknighthusezni said:


    Clever ideas.

     Maybe Tat is never named in the PT until the end or given a different name?


Why give it a different name?

I dunno, I get the feeling that Tatooine can be used in the PT, but maybe more sparingly than in the official version. I.e. one wants to make sure that Anakin does not become Luke 2.0, and showing a great deal of Anakin's setup at Tatooine will likely come across as too much of a Luke-rip off. Lucas managed to avoid that by making Anakin a kid, but that came at a great cost to the narrative. My solution is having Anakin (and Owen and Beru) being somewhere else at the start of the PT, but their paths will diverge at Tatooine. That way, setup is done somewhere else, but there's still a way to show the viewer the events behind how Ben descrbes the conflict with Owen.

Post
#556470
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

CWBorne said:


Regarding Tatooine I think the Original Trilogy line that has people tending towards having Anakin on the planet is Kenobi stating to Luke that "He didn't hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved. 
<div>

Now that could still easily mean that Anakin and Owen were on a trip and met Kenobi on a nearby planet or station, and while Lars wants Skywalker to go back to Tatooine, he instead goes with Obi-Wan. It would still fit with the spirit of what Kenobi said. 


Good point about the quote, and about the possiblites for scope in the PT. It somehow establishes that at least Owen Lars lived at Tatooine. As for the others...


CWBorne said:


Truth be told, I want to show Tatooine just because in my version, the planet was actually starting to develop commericially with low-level terraforming being considered before the Clone Wars and the Empire's reign completely destroyed any potential of economic development. Basically the planet's a handy visual demonstration of both the costs of the war and that Anakin at the time was giving up a potentially decent life. That this better livelihood was taken away somewhat due to Skywalker's absence is something Lars holds against Kenobi when he shows up with Luke later.
</div>
 


Interesting idea. What I feel is that Lucas very intentionally builds Tatooine as a peripheral planet. There's rural/urban divide going on there, with Luke being the country boy finding himself in a very important role all of a sudden. Kinda like the Hobbits from the sleepy Shire in LOTR. i think that needs to be maintained when you build this. Maybe you give Tatooine the Western Boomtown feel in this, and then tear that boom to shreds during the war. That would be kinda cool, and it's a good way to show that the war does, in fact, have consequences....

Post
#556097
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

CWBorne said:



danaan said:

Edit: Oops, pressed the wrong button.

Diverging slightly from the current discussion, I find some common problems/mistakes among many prequel writers (myself included to some extent):

1) In ANH, Obi-Wan states that Anakin was "already an excellent pilot". Yet, I've seen prequel re-writers turn him into a farmer, or street urchin, or some such that does not click very well with Anakin being a pilot.

2) Making Anakin too special. We all know that Anakin has to be exceptionally talented, that's why Obi-Wan trains him. Yet, I've seen writers exaggerate his talents in ways that do not correspond very well with the tough requirements for becoming a Jedi established in the OT. Some have him already self-trained. I've even seen one writer have Anakin keep a spaceship from crashing, using the Force, as if he was already like Yoda. Less is more here, I think.

3) The Republic and the Jedi. The Jedi order are clearly officially sanctioned, from what Obi-Wan tells us. And yet, it doesn't seem like they would be the armed forces of the Republic, because the Republic is a democracy that probably wants to retain control over its own military, not hand it over to a strange sect. This relationship needs to be plausible in the storyline. I've seen too many writers who create something not very convincing.


1. My current idea involves Anakin being a navigator on a space frieghtor who in the rare  opportunities he does get to directly fly is quite remarkable, shown to Kenobi when he and Skywalker first leave Tatooine. In general its tricky because you have to establish why Anakin is such a great pilot and yet still is on a place like Tatooine.  

2. Agreed. I think Anakin's distinct quality should be one of emotion not abilities. Its the temptations he faces, and ultimately how worldview in compared to Kenobi and other Jedi led him down a darker path. It creates a more interesting picture if other than possibly Obi-Wan the other Jedi and Yoda didn't really see anything all that notable. In fact if Skywalker is largely under the radar of most other knights and masters it helps to explain why his fall was such a surprise since most would have assumed  Palpatine would seduce a more powerful Jedi.

3. That is an issue, plus it would seem to be a discrepancy that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the wars, while Yoda states that a Jedi uses the force for defense and not attack. However I think there is a way to make it work. If the Jedi were utilized in more of an advisory capacity in defense and dodging (utilizing precognitive abilities to alert about ships, planning strategy, very occasional use of the mind trick) they would be critical but overtly powerful. In fact, my thinking has that fact as a growing point of conflict between Kenobi and Skywalker, as the latter grows discontented as the Jedi not being more directly involved in offensive assults in the war


Sounds good, particularly the third part. For 1) I'm not sure why everyone seems to feel that Anakin has to be on Tatooine at the start of the Prequel. The OT material states that Obi-Wan recruited him to the Jedi order and that Obi-Wan and Owen clearly had a disagreement about this. But that's it. There's a lot of freedom to elaborate on this background.

As for 2), I think that it's ok to let Anakin show himself to be notable, but that's notable in the eyes of a Jedi. For anyone outside, those signals should probably be very subtle. The Force is strong with him, but only a Jedi can see it and interpret it correctly. For anyone else, he's just lucky, or very talented at something...

Post
#555967
Topic
How would YOU re-do the prequels?
Time

Edit: Oops, pressed the wrong button.

Diverging slightly from the current discussion, I find some common problems/mistakes among many prequel writers (myself included to some extent):

1) In ANH, Obi-Wan states that Anakin was "already an excellent pilot". Yet, I've seen prequel re-writers turn him into a farmer, or street urchin, or some such that does not click very well with Anakin being a pilot.

2) Making Anakin too special. We all know that Anakin has to be exceptionally talented, that's why Obi-Wan trains him. Yet, I've seen writers exaggerate his talents in ways that do not correspond very well with the tough requirements for becoming a Jedi established in the OT. Some have him already self-trained. I've even seen one writer have Anakin keep a spaceship from crashing, using the Force, as if he was already like Yoda. Less is more here, I think.

3) The Republic and the Jedi. The Jedi order are clearly officially sanctioned, from what Obi-Wan tells us. And yet, it doesn't seem like they would be the armed forces of the Republic, because the Republic is a democracy that probably wants to retain control over its own military, not hand it over to a strange sect. This relationship needs to be plausible in the storyline. I've seen too many writers who create something not very convincing.

Post
#554887
Topic
Star Wars Episode 1: The Old Order
Time

I found that many here are re-writing the PT, so it seems a good place to share! This is my novellized Episode 1. I got some excellent feedback from the RLM forum and I'm always hungry for more!

Some notes on it: The attentive reader will note that this story is written in a style that somewhat differs from most on these forums, and indeed most sci/fi/fantasy literature. Specifically, there is no introspectives, no discussions or revelations of the thoughts or feelings of any of the characters. This is intentional. This story started out as a screenplay, and in an attempt to keep the "feel" of a movie, I have ventured to write only "what you see on the screen", which makes the text less explicit than many others tend to be. So lets see if that movie feel can be retained...

(Disclaimer: this work of fan fiction should in no way be construed to be a challenge to Lucasart’s copyright relating Star Wars)

Opening Crawl: For a thousand years, the GALACTIC REPUBLIC has been the steward of peace and prosperity in the Galaxy, its Senate a place of peaceful negotiation. Lately, however, the SENATE ISOLATIONISTS - who fiercely defend the sovereignty of their systems - have questioned the Republic’s peacekeeping. The integrity of the Republic is about to be tested as a coup d’etat on the peaceful planet of Alderaan brings the issue to the breaking point...


And here's the link: http://boards.theforce.net/Boards/Message.aspx?topic=29250109&brd=10476