dan76

Lucas was so caught up in his own universe and ideas that he forgot to focus on making a good film. The original Star Wars borrows a lot from older movies, particularly the influence of Kurosawa. The plot of ANH is almost flawless in structure for an adventure film.

No good characters, no humour or fun in the adventure. No one we identify with or want to be like (solo!)

Jedi's seem really boring. Not like Samurai at all. They are a bunch of fools who don't see the obvious. And they all twerl their light sabers too much.

Flat performances from almost everyone.

The decision to start the story on such a young Anakin.

Obviously the over reliance on green screen and cgi, making most frames a cluttered mess. No such thing a economy of statement in these films.

Linking too many things together - Vader building C3PO, Chewbacca being Yoda's friend. This all makes the universe seem smaller.

Ruining the Force.

Just really poor handling of almost any scene. Anakina and Padme's romance - dreadful, Anakin's final motivation for turning to the dark side and killing other jedi's.... So he could bring back Padme when she dies during child birth - how about just telling a doctor instead - maybe in secret! He's an idiot.

The fact that nothing looks or feels like Star Wars. I'm hoping that with the new trilogy they just loot all the designs from the OT. I want to see AT-AT's and Tie Fighters dammit!

The fact that the films were made at all. Prequels are never a good idea, as if a film is successful enough to warrant a prequel it obviously means it doesn't need one. They weakened many things from the OT, particulary Vader that you just have to forget about them. To me, Vader didn't built C3PO - it's stupid.

There are loads of other things, but it's depressing typing this, so I'm going to stop.

The reason the ANH worked was because it was a simple film. There were goodies and baddies, in an amazing looking world full of cool shit we hadn't seen before.

Of course Lucas had a ton of back story, but the first film shows that it didn't need it. Over the course of three films we were shown more of that universe and got to know it through the characters story. It wasn't about politics. Who cares?

If this new trilogy has any chance of recapturing that spirit I hope politics stays out of it. It should be a small story. It will be difficult to have cut-out baddies without redemption (I know Vader had redemption but he was the only one). In a modern film the Emperor would go into therapy...

I hope they keep it simple, keep the Force to a minimum (Jedi's are boring - watch PT), tell a cool adventure in the OT universe. All that Imperial hardware would still be out there. Would all those Stormtroopers surrender - I don't think so.

They should make it as if the PT doesn't exist.

Hal 9000 said:

I wouldn't mind a cast list sometime soon so I can know whether Chewbacca will be in the film. To me, that more than anything else would signify whether the EU will be revered or largely ignored before I get too far along in my post-ROTJ EU exploration. 

Chewbacca is in it, along with the Millennium Falcon.

Bingowings said:

To really feel sequences like that jeopardy has to be there.

You can't feel concern for something you have no emotional investment in.

I think that's the problem with the PT. Any emotional investment had to be supplied by the viewer because we already knew who the characters were.

We were supposed to care about how Vader came to be because of the OT, not because we actually gave a crap about the characters in the prequels. They didn't earn it. Lucas was so wrapped up all the stuff he couldn't put into the OT (which the films obviously didn't need) that he forgot to make a good film, with interesting characters and performances regardless of if someone likes Star Wars or not.

Another thing that hurts the prequels is that by making dumb story choices like Vader building C3-PO he makes the films smaller in scale. Jedi feels bigger than the PT. The opening of Star Wars feels more epic than the climax of Sith. You really do feel like this is a tiny planet in the middle of nowhere, and the scale of the Star Destroyer and how it's introduced really sells the power of the Empire.

On a more general note, the fact that a film is successful enough for there to be a prequel automatically means it doesn't need one.

vacuum said:

what i've learned from all this, the prequels really do suck.

Yes, that's the important thing!

Bingowings said:

dan76 said:

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me

Both begin with a rescue sequence inter-cut with blank exposition delivered via holographic messaging.

Both feature Tatooine and it's distinctive design motif.

Both heavily feature bizarre aliens (many are carry over designs from earlier films) some of which are bargained with as part of a plan that actually makes no sense when you think about it.

The Jedi mind trick has limited success in both cases.

Both feature Jabba and Bib Fortuna and slave girls and comedy frog death.

Both have a middle act which centres on riding land vehicles at high speed through obstacles.

Both feature unnecessary costume changes from the female lead.

Both feature a dull mission brief delivered while characters blankly look in the general direction of a holographic display.

Both feature villains (arguably the more interesting characters) dying after falling into a pit (Jedi does this twice).

Both feature a ground battle/base siege/space combat/saber duel combination finale.

Both have a villain's lair going up in a generator explosion (Jedi does this three times).

Both have a comedy native swinging a weapon around and getting hurt to slapstick effect.

Fart/Burp humour.

Both have the death of a Jedi Master (arguably Qui-Gon's death makes more sense).

Both have a father figure dying from injuries lying down and looking up into the face of the victorious youngster and delivering a final request before peacefully sliding to the floor.

Both end with a funeral pyre and a victory display with fireworks launched by star fighters....

I could go on.

In this sense you're right, but it just damns TPM even more. A cynical film, delivered without any gusto or spirit compared to Jedi (and that's saying something!) that still doesn't "look"like Star Wars.

I think we're agreeing aren't we? The fact that TPM steals so poorly from the original trilogy clarify's it's awfulness doesn't it?

Got to say I almost spat my popcorn out when we watched Attack of the Clones and Obi-wan's ship hides on that rock (just like the Falcon hiding on the Star destroyer in Empire). Terrible.

Oh, and that bikini wasn't an unneccesary costume change :P

Bingowings said:

The PT is bad but there is a thick dense ground of much worse movies to dig out before you can put them in the worst films ever made strata.

If it wasn't for Mark playing Luke with all the gumption he gave the role in the previous movies ROTJ would play out much like TPM.

The tone, the pacing, the story structure and much of the imagery are nearly identical.

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me, in terms of design... everything. That's another thing about those prequels, the ships, costumes, the overall look didn't say "Star Wars" at all. More like Babylon 5 or some cheap tv show.

Making a good film is incredibly hard, it's almost a miracle when it works, and looking at the prequels and what they had going for them: A world wide inbuilt audience, loved characters, an amazing universe all set up by the first three films. I can't think of any film that has all that going for it, a huge audience wanting to love it. What does he do?

Kill the Force. Have Darth Vader build C3-PO. Set it up that at the beginning of Star Wars Vader is on a ship with his daughter, the robot he built as a kid, above the planet he grew up on, where his son now lives... Why not make IG-88 Chewbacca's cousin?

There is nothing of the spirit of the original films in those prequels, all of which are so flat, lacking in any dynamic story telling. The acting is uniformly bad, but that's probably because it was mostly shot green screen. They're a cgi mess.

I think Star Wars ended in 1983, but each to their own.

I haven't read all 14 pages, but here's how I see the original trilogy.

Star Wars is a cool little 70's movie, Empire is a great film that happens to be set in the Star Wars universe, and Jedi is a film of set pieces - the shape of films to come.

I love all three films, and I think they're all really different. Jedi is generally seen as the worst one, and in some ways it is. But the high points are really good. Jabba, the Emperor, speeder bike chase, Luke's confrontation and the attack on the second Death Star (I still haven't seen a better space battle).

A few other things. The shot over Chewie's shoulder as he shoots a speeder bike, Tie Interceptors, Luke deflecting a speeder bike's lasers... that bikini.

What lets it down are things like the scene between Luke and Leia, then Han and Leia. Pretty dead scenes, and Harrison Ford is terrible in this after being so great in Empire. It's like he thought "ok, it's a kids film" and didn't give anything extra. The pacing is awful whereas Empire is brilliantly paced, always pushing forward. Jedi lurches around and settles.

Anyhow, anyone who thinks that those prequels are better than Jedi are smoking crack. Seriously, those are three of the worst films ever made.

RRS-1980 said:

dan76 said:

Sega's 1997 Star Wars Trilogy Arcade

 This one?

No, not that one, this one:

http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9777&letter=S

I got the year wrong, it was released in 1998. Star Wars Arcade is an ok game though, I remember having it on the old 32X.

Just joined the forum - hi all.

I had a quick read through the replies and haven't seen any mention of Sega's 1997 Star Wars Trilogy Arcade.

If you've not played it it's an on rails shooter spread across the three original films. Great graphics, cool scoring system and it sticks to the films. Nothing new in there, just the original designs.

It was never ported to any system but it's playable using the supermodel3 emu - hook it up to a flight stick and it's "just like the real arcade game"