The new BD is identical to the one already out in Europe featuring a brand new Lowry transfer and...wait for it...new teal color timing!
Detail is far improved, but color is now off. Go figure. And surprise-no mono.
I really appreciate DJ for doing this. I just watched the film for the first time in ages, but on the actual last 1990's remastered Image LD with THX mastering and the PCM mono track. It REALLY makes a difference. The original audio fits the gritty low budget feel of the film in ways that the pitiful 5.1 remix cannot. Plus in my experience YOU CANNOT MIX MONO TO 5.1 EFFECTIVELY.
You_Too said:
Just wanted to announce that sometime in the future when some other projects are done, me and DJ are planning to make our own color corrected versions of Terminator 1 and 2.
The only details I can provide you with so far is that we want to take the new Terminator blu-ray back to the original colors and then balance out the pink tint to get back the true original look.
The source of Terminator 2 will be the japanese blu-ray which doesn't have the heavy DVNR. That one's also a little bit pink and needs to be balanced.
Nice. There's a remastered BD of Terminator due out from MGM in February, but I doubt it will be much different or close to the original.
Stamper said:
After listening to the muxed mono track from the LD, I'm kinda disappointed by the dynamic range. I believe by making the quiet parts louder, the track somehow suffered from it. Any way to get the original, non remastered Dark Jedi file, but still synced to the new Blu-ray?
Also I own the original Image DVD which has the 2.1 mono track, and it sounds great.
If I demux it and upload it on a sharing site, can someone sync it to the new Blu-ray? That would be awesome because it would bring all the different versions of the mono track up to date.
I didn't have any dr issues on my end. It sounded like a pretty well recorded low budget mono track with some surprisingly good sounding action sequences. Did DJ have to do filtering of some kind other than converting the 44.1 khz to 48?
The original Image DVD seems to be identical to the LD in my hands. That would probably be the best overall color reference for U2 and DJ. Here's the comparison on DVDBeaver:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare/terminator.htm
Oddly they list the MGM DVD as having PCM mono. Is this true?
Anyways, damn good film, I forgot how taut the storyline is. Probably the only good film Cameron has ever made. (I'll admit I haven't seen T2 in ages, so I'll give it another shot.)
Good for you! These two sets were my first foray into the classic era on LD, and feature great print sources...except DAF which is a bit beat up around the edges. I doubt mono audio will be any different on later issues. My 1989 discs and Vol. 2 versions of Thunderball and YOLT sound identical. Both Dr. No and Goldfinger have a slight amount of ticks and pops. FRWL has hiss.
Also, as FF stated there is an isolated music and effects track for FRWL on the Connery Collection on analog right IIRC. It's not on the box anywhere, but I suppose it was done to compliment the isolated tracks on the Criterion DN and GF. (Their FRWL doesn't have one oddly.)
No, they've always been that way for the Crab Key insertion, so that it's pretty obvious this wasn't done at night. The BD/UE re-timed these to be "properly dark" but it isn't quite correct either. This really stuck out on the 35mm print of the Lowry work. Not proper color, with a bit too much blue/purple somewhat akin to the re-timed OHMSS opening.
Die Hard 2: Die Harder
I make it no secret that I enjoy this one, and in ways find it preferable to the original. It's big, loud, silly, stupid in places, gritty, nasty and the last time the a Die Hard movie felt like a Die Hard movie. Being from 1990, explosions are explosions, fights aren't cut to ADD smithereens, and the hero gets to be a bit self-righteous in addition to being both a failure and the energizer bunny.
The LD PCM allows breathing room for the original audio mix making all the era's effects nice and punchy like we like them.
But for once couldn't we get nice looking transfers for these two films? They weren't shot on video!
4 bloodied ridiculous balls out of 4.
I suppose you could go the hi-res route and try 24/96, but would that be overkill on LD analog audio?
I have bought on LDDB, but it's the el-cheapo lots and bargains on ebay that always drag me back in.
I'd get them (Brosnans) anyway. Pretty cheap too. The surround downmix on Goldeneye is outstanding.
If anybody has a reciever that can do Dolby EX and has the SE disc then if the track is flagged as EX we know for sure. But I doubt it to be honest.
Nah, it was just a huge lot with the ones I needed included that all of a sudden shot up by $40 in the last minute.
I'm only in need of LALD, Moonraker, Octopussy, the MGM LTK, DTS Brosnans and the 3 Criterion CAVs. Of course the inner completist and Bond fanatic in me is also saying NSNA, Casino Royale '67, the THX series and the Goldfinger CAV boxset.
TWINE is indeed at crazy prices. It would be nice to have but not essential. Except that is has the original Dolby 5.1 EX soundtrack which isn't on the UE. Is it on the original SE disc?
I do highly recommend the Brosnan discs however. I have the Goldeneye THX edition and it is one of the best ever issued LDs. Both soundtracks are stellar with huge LFE bass.
EDIT: Dammit, what is up with these last second ebay bids? Nowadays I usually have wait for the last 30 seconds to start, but even then there are bids that come in immediately thereafter that almost seem generated to be just above your maximum. This is what I get for throwing my hat in the ring on a Criterion FRWL CAV at the end.
Die Hard
The 1995 LD looks like all other versions of the film on video: contrasty and video like. But we're used to that. The sound? Another matter entirely. The Dolby Surround mix is thought to be the original 35mm mix and it does have some different effect placement. Very very satisfying experience, with natural sound so good I turned off my sub.
What makes the film so memorable is all of the little touches, the human moments that were completely unexpected of a genre film, let alone an action movie. And we still feel the impact of Die Hard today. Watching last night I was struck at how many of the shots, compositions and structure have been done repeatedly in later films.
4 balls out of four.
The print backup is always supposed to be an optical Dolby stereo with or without matrixed surround track on the print, and I think this would also go for DTS films. Every one I've seen photos of has the Dolby optical backup.
I was sorely tempted on a few of those marked down single BDs, but decided to save up as I'm trying to get a nice pair of Sennheiser headphones. (Though it didn't stop me from grabbing some heavily marked down TCM 4pack collections sadly)
Also, why would anyone but one of us spend $70 on 007 LDs? I am so tired of being outbid at the last second on a Bond lot.
The TB surround mix is very well done, IMO the best you can do with upmixing mono. Music and effects in front channels, dialogue in center, and occasional surround usage. The 5.1 is uneccessary.
twister111 said:
Currently running off of 3 hours cumulative sleep over the past 3 days approximately. Family woke me up this morning when I had only gotten an hours worth of shut eye and the two hours are from the three days-ish ago... I think that's about right. Anyways suffice it to say I'm irritable and tired right now but for whatever reason my body now just wants to toss and turn... So, I came to the internets.
I absolutely concur. Bleary eyed and beyond tired? Come to The Internets, Mos Eisley's newest hot spot!
No, they ported the 5.1 remixes done for mid-90's Dolby ac3 LD releases, but as full bitrate DTS tracks-of course dropping the Surround PCM.
I thought some might be 70mm related, but for example after comparing exhaustively some of us on the lddb forum have concluded that the 5.1 on Die Hard loses the original sound design. I just got the LD myself and the sound is indeed different feeling spatially on the original mix.
Quite a few 16mm episodes show up for time to time. This may be the best bet overall if there weren't serious budgetary concerns and the impossibility of finding all 120 as a print.
You_Too said:
Ok, another little update on what I did today. Like you know if you've read the last couple pages of this thread, me and DJ decided to focus on only correcting color errors in the GOUT, instead of a full cleanup.
As some of you might know, there's been discussions before about Luke's lightsaber in the wide shot inside the Falcon right after Alderaan's explosion.
There's been a discussion over at Mike Verta's forum as well, where he stated that the lightsaber was in fact blue in the original. It was also proved by a screening photo he posted in some other thread around here sometime.
There are two of these wide shots, and while the lightsaber color is faded in both, in the second shot the whole tint of the picture is wrong. The second shot is purple/pink in its tint and blue colors are shifted to magenta.
We decided to fix both of those shots and I've finished the first one today.
With the GOUT being sourced from an interpositive that was quite faded when they scanned it, the lightsaber color in that shot was very faded, appearing as white in the raw GOUT, and as "dollar-green" when increasing the saturation.
I've fixed the lightsaber in the first shot, by handpainting it in two passes. The first pass being the color of the blade and the second pass being the hue of the glow around it. I chose the color by sampling Luke's lightsaber in the "It controls your actions?" shot. Most sources point against the saber in this wide shot being as saturated as in that other shot.
Here's a comparison of what it would've looked like in our release had I not done this, and how it looks now:
Damn, and I thought it was always just a mistimed rushed optical like the slightly later shot where the saber is left white.
You_Too said:
Tyrphanax said:
Your dedication is admirable.
I completely identify with your reasoning, as well. I feel like I would do the same thing myself, were I involved in a project like this.
Thanks. I'm glad you appreciate it!
Small update: I've finished fixing the practice orb (or whatever it's called) now. Here's a comparison between the raw GOUT upscaled to 720p and the fixed version:
This really does show off the deficiencies of the IP used because of the original DVNR riddled transfer and that being blown back up for the upscale. Fantastic work overall guys, this feels more like a professional transfer where the opticals and transitions are dirty and a bit soft only to click in to the restored feature.
You_Too said:
SS4DarthPayne said:
Well no one else has posted, so here goes. I just grabbed the 97 sample and watched it. I think it's pretty much what you'd expect it to look like, an upscaled version of one of the broadcasts (that's the TB, right..?) Visuals-wise, that's exactly what it looks like. Let's be honest here, it isn't miracle-level like what you guys have done with the GOUT, but from what I can understand you've put in 5% (10%? Less?) of the effort in on it as you have put in on cleaning up the GOUT.
Yeah, it's the TB since that was the cleanest version. Flunk was oversharpened and had crushed shadow detail, Gkar had edge enhancement and hardcoded german subs, Reivax had the frames blended into each other.
And yeah, it's a pretty simple upscale but with the same upscale-treatment as the GOUT, making sure all detail is preserved. And no miracle-level on the color correction either (actually that wasn't possible because the colors were pretty screwed up) but seeing the raw TB together with ours, it does look a bit better. Especially the Mos Eisley part since I did some additional correction there. Here are some comparison samples:
EDIT: Sorry for the pixellated reds, that's media player classic's fault.
Now THAT is more like it!! The SE had bad color timing issues on the video versions, with the VHS being perhaps the most accurate despite a contrast boost. This actually recalls the theatrical. Well done!!
You_Too said:
Yeah, it proved a nice solution to fill out the missing frame parts. Though at the reel change part where a guy is standing on an X-wing, waving his hands while an R2 unit is being lowered into the ship, MVFlowFps made his hands look weird in the generated frame so I had to fix that one manually.
Yep, that's the same as the side break on the US LD set. With the missing frames, would it help to use lesser sources as placeholders or is this generation process a better fit?
As for complete cleanup on ESB and ROTJ, that would be an insanely massive undertaking especially with these being as much of a turd as they originally were. I agree that the big ones like glue smears, splices and light flashes should be looked at but otherwise I don't foresee problems.
Wow, that's a lot of DTS titles you own!I'd love to have a few more personally, but it's primarily Goldeneye and Tomorrow Never Dies I'm after.
Theatrical mixes seemingly and not reissued If I am not mistaken:
013) … Casino (1995) 43117: The BD is DTS 5.1 but likely a new mix. I have the regular LD and love the sound.
019) … Dark City (1998) ID4643LI-theatrical was reissued as a bonus to the Director's cut and not in DTS.
022) … Die Hard (1988) *** 0890584-original sound mix altered for all 5.1 remixes.
023) … Die Hard 2: Die Harder (1990) *** 0890684-need to check but may be same as first film.
024) … Die Hard 3: With A Vengeance (1995) 0885884-New BD audio very strong but not as detailed as a 1995 film should be, suspect a remix and not theatrical.
046) … Hercules (1997) 15067 AS
048) … Hunchback of Notre Dame, The (1996) 12354 AS
075) … Pocahontas (1995) 12158 AS
These Disney films all get 7.1 remixes nowadays, so these are original.
053) … Jackie Brown (1997) 15065 AS-BD mix is DTS 5.1 but may be sweetened as Tarantino likes to tweak his films for video.
054) … Jackie Chan's First Strike (1996) ID4713LI-AMerican dubbed and re-cut version.
082) … Ronin: Special Edition (1998) ML107602-BD uses LD DTS bitrate so it may be the same track. Someone with both will have to compare side by side.
088) … Shadow, The (1994) 43116-I have this one and the sound is STELLAR. The German BD has LD DTS bitrate so it may be the same and theatrical. Again someone with both would have to compare.
039) … Goldeneye: Special Edition (1995) ML105987
102) … Tomorrow Never Dies (1997) ML107148 Both of the Bonds, lose heavily in the remixes. Goldeneye loses it's thunderous bass and LFE, and TND loses the surround clarity and in it's unbelievable discrete effects. The 5.1 ac3 versions and SE DVDs are okay so it's only on the 2006/BD remix.
105) … Vertigo (1958) *** 43212, is the bad 5.1 remix with horridly intrusive new foley work. The new BD mix is supposedly a new and more faithful mix. The film is best in original mono.
As far as others, here are a few off the top of my head:
The "Director's Cut"s of Lethal Weapon 1-3 are DVD only and have full bitrate DTS.
Die Another Day has it's original DTS-ES matrixed 6.1 channel mix on the initial SE DVD, and on no other version. The World is Not Enough had a similar mix that was never released. The Japan LD is theatrical ac3 Dolby EX matrix 6.1.
DTS audio for Batman Forever never released. All mixes on 2005 DVDs and BDs for the original Batman series came from heavily filtered audio masters and then put into Dolby/DTS codecs. LD has theatrical audio in ac3 and Dolby surround.
Original DTS for The Matrix never released.
One question I have always wondered:
Why in the heck are Imperial officers using Rebel blasters in the detention block on the Death Star???
Moth3r said:
The fan-made "filmumentaries" by Jambe Davdar are must-sees, IMHO.
This 1000%.
I know I have to see this mainly for being the first major HFR release, but despite understanding the idea and principle have never been a fan of the practice. I thought that the Todd-AO process on Oklahoma for example introduced some terrible motion issues that are very disconcerting and that was only 30fps!
If Douglas Trumbull can nail his process of varying frame rates then that might be something. He isn't one to just simply be the first, but to do it right no matter the time involved. The Hobbit is merely the first major release gutsy enough to crank up the rate, and there really should be a great deal of effort put into achieving the effect correctly. As it stands, anybody can do 48, 70, 120 fps with standard video, but it underlines the fact that is it merely video and a dull lifeless void of a medium that is not cinematic and certainly not lifelike either.
That or film history, historical context, production, actual firsthand knowledge or research performed. Nowadays this has gone out the window with everyone being able to simply look up anything in a matter of moments and be a self-described expert.
A great and often recurring example of this for me is discussing any of my favorite directors, who have been heroes to me since childhood. Few study the people behind the films; their histories, thoughts, ideals and actual intent-let alone the production scenarios. Most of all I come across people which leave me responding like this: "Oh, so you possess a Hitchcock expertise do you? How did you feel about the effectiveness of Under Capricorn? Saboteur? The Paradine Case? Which ending for Topaz works best to you? Which of the abandoned projects do you lament the most? What did you think of the intricate subtleties in Rope? Do you agree that Foreign Correspondent is superior to Rebecca? How do you think Hitch's collaboration with screenwriters worked best? Which of the renowned films do you find flawed? " And as with everything of this nature, I'm not angry but intensely sad that people simply don't care to know what they are talking about or even bother to see the films.
I grew up devouring every film book I could get my hands on, most of them being moth eaten, rotted, tattered and torn from libraries. Then I had to track down the films on VHS tape and hope they weren't in shoddy transfers. My knowledge is pretty much lifelong self-taught, and I would be the first to admit that I don't know everything.
Toying with the idea of doing video reviews is a nice one, but every youtube iteration of this devolves into either simple talking or the usual rant/rave. Then you have those who wind up inadvertently developing recurring characters out of it, such as RLM, AVGN and the Nostalgia Critic. Yet when you go this route it becomes harder and harder to actually criticize and make eloquent points about the material because you are having to serve something else now.
There seem to be two polar opposites, those who live and die by proper critical work and non-professionals who couldn't care less about form, knowledge or structure. Really one has to be honest in this type of work and develop a singular voice entirely of their own, and then actually say something with it.
This is what I try to do when I write, by injecting enough of myself into the writing in order to reach a new tack or idea that I wouldn't have been able to if just looking at the material coldly and objectively. Officially and absolutely my problem with writing film criticism is that I feel and care about cinema too much. As I've always told professors, I don't give a damn about being perfect or proper, I only care about doing the films justice and creating unspoken dialogues with people.
This leads me to the problem of length. There is no paper long enough for me to get everything I think or feel about a film down upon. Yet professionals hardly have any time or space to get their points across. Ebert's regular reviews are about 1,000 words long, and in a newspaper column you're lucky to get all of that printed. Video reviews are even more restricting. This is the freedom of internet blogging, but that comes at a price. Length or intensity is not always the answer, and it is often the more simple prose that conveys the necessary feeling.
And I like to keep these relatively honest, with asides and bit of occasional humor, because in the end the entire point is to share and promote the rare gems of art or escapism while provoking thought.
The Aluminum Falcon said:
Found this thread and just started reading up on Disney's many mishaps over the years... It's most unfortunate to say the least. I look forward to whatever OTV uploads come; I love Beauty and the Beast so that will be cool to see the true theatrical and 1:66 aspect ratio. Count me in as voting for either file-sharing site or open tracker.
I was thinking of buying some Vaulted stuff before prices go up way high. After looking around the web, I still have a few questions that I thought I'd ask those more knowledgeable here. So, just to confirm, the most accurate versions are...
- Snow White- none (all have brightness issues and are no way reflective of 1937 Technicolor color palette)
- Pinnochio- old DVD for better color timing
- Fantasia- LD (DVDs have narration replaced, though LD is still censored)
- Cinderella- LD (isn't missing details that Lowry restoration is)
- Sleeping Beauty- 2003 DVD for a better color palette (at expense of cropped picture)
- Little Mermaid- Doctor M's Custom Disc (is this going to be uploaded any time soon?)
- Beauty and the Beast- LD Rip (correct aspect ratio, color and OTV)
- Aladdin- ADM's reconstruction (is this still available?)
- Lion King- laserdisc for palette and OTV
Anyway, hope someone can confirm this is so. I never realized the dire state Disney films are in; I assumed the releases were all theatrically accurate... Ah well: more to preserve, I suppose.
So overall, the original DVD releases use the last LD masters with slightly improved quality from a progressive transfer, yet being early discs aren't the greatest.
Doctor M said:
Technically I suppose the first DVD release of Little Mermaid is more accurate because it doesn't have the color changes. The quality is just poorer overall.
The Fantasia VHS has the censored scene and the Laserdisc is a shortened version of the film. Somewhere I have a divx of the censored scene. If I could get a better one I'd cut it into the film.
As mentioned, I do have ADM's Aladdin. There just hasn't been much interest in it.
Don't forget there was some changes in the dust in Lion King, I just don't know when that happened.
I'm still on the look out for uncensored Saludos Amigos.
Someone need to talk to MySpleen about which Disney's they'll allow and which they won't.
I have the 1991 LD and VHS of Fantasia but haven't watched the film since childhood. Is this the VHS you mean?
We should get some discussion going, because these are in many ways like the OOT, with the work of countless people being slowly but surely erased and it all being all but invisible to the public.
Thanks for the link Chewtobacca! This is exactly how I remember Pinocchio looking on the 1993 VHS, and the 1987 version seems much more like a direct print source instead of a cleaned newer IP.
Here's an article from David Bordwell that has a comparison of LD, DVD-BD, and a 50's era reissue IB print:http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/category/dvds/
LD:
DVD/BD:
50's Tech IB:
SilverWook said:
Yeah, the LALD SE looks like a VCD at times. :(
The THX DVD of Dr. No has noticeably more compression artifacts seen in ocean waves.
Is it possible some of the earlier 5.1 mixes were derived from 70mm releases? (At least the Moore and Dalton entries.) I'm thinking some of these ought to be preserved. They could certainly co exist with a PCM track synched up to the Blu Rays. Maybe preserve the SE menus too? ;)
I've got the THX Moonraker DVD on the way, and more factory sealed Bond LD's in my future. There is no cure for Laserdisc fever!
DN also has heavy, heavy noise that is not grain.
The early 5.1 mixes should be derived from the original stems as you're indicating, but all are straightforward 4 channel single surround masters. Being always on the technological forefront was never the intent of Cubby Broccoli, and Spy was the first film to not be mono. It is a stereo surround mix, but nowhere is Dolby listed as being applied so I can't say for sure if it was a Dolby release. Moonraker is Dolby stereo, as is everything through TLD, with LTK being Dolby Stereo SR. 70mm was used for some of the films in this era, but not all and it wasn't a primary concern as far as I can tell, so the mixes should be identical to the 35mm.
SilverWook said:
captainsolo said:
These 5.1 mixes will almost certainly trump anything from later on simply due to better compression and greater detail. Better practices because they were made for LD 5.1 which avoids the typical down conversions built into DVD audio. But the UE is the only release of LTK that is fully uncut in Region 1. The others are a rumored PAL German LD and a NTSC Japanese LD but both are full screen.
Is it feasible to patch the missing scenes using the UE? There is a VCD on Yesasia.com, but it's probably full frame...
Yes it would be indeed. The best would be to use the UE video and PCM audio from one of these rumored uncut LDs to patch into the PCM from the US one. The cuts are very minor, but once you know them you notice if they're gone. Primarily it's some body hits and violence, Krest in the depressurization chamber, the cocaine shredder, and a few little dialogue tweaks on cursing IIRC. All in all it's only a minute or two total. The worst is how they re-cut the ending of the tanker scene in order to remove a few seconds of burning. It makes no logical or cinematic sense in the 1989 theatrical version as Bond magically jumps back and forth from the explosion and is very disconcerting as for a brief moment you can't even tell which way is which, which of course detracts from the major climactic moment of the entire film.
This is basically what we're looking at: http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=3129
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/bbfc_cuts_licence_to_kill.htm
Those 5.1s would be the ones done for the last LD series, the THX CLV pressings form 1998 or so. There were many announced but canceled, and you can see the listing on LDDB for these such as LTK, FYEO etc. and all were to have 5.1 mixes on the ac3 track. All that came out of course were DN, FRWL, GF, TB, TSWLM and MR. These are the same as the THX DVDs but have PCM original audio, and the DVDs have progressive video.
The THX discs are the same as the SE discs, same master, same compression bitrate everything but the SEs just crammed in every special feature on the disc plus the new menus. There may be slightly less compression on the THX discs, but if I'm thinking correctly they all have a separately encoded fullscreen version on the disc.
These 5.1 mixes will almost certainly trump anything from later on simply due to better compression and greater detail. Better practices because they were made for LD 5.1 which avoids the typical down conversions built into DVD audio. But the UE is the only release of LTK that is fully uncut in Region 1. The others are a rumored PAL German LD and a NTSC Japanese LD but both are full screen.
I'm not surprised that there possibly aren't any corrected SEs. They're not any huge errors that aren't fixable. My question is if these are indeed the best video source we have for the original presentations or if a finely conducted LD transfer could match or exceed them. Some have decent images, and then some are riddled with compression artifacts and other nasties and then over-sharpened to within an inch of their life. And then DN/FRWL/GF/LALD/TMWTGG are cropped to 1.78. And on top of all that there are moments of combing and interlacing that sporadically appear in all the SEs I've sat through.
Simplest answer: This is war, Peacock!
canofhumdingers said:
I seem to remember at least one video game (X-wing? Rebel Assault?) where that was a sheild generator. You had the two balls for the bridge, and that for the underbelly.
Rogue Leader has it as the final shield generator that must be knocked out before destroying the bridge.
darth_ender said:
So why did Lando have to go and completely destroy the DEATH STAr II??????? I mean, Wedge already destroyed the north tower, disabling the main power channel and likely disabling the superlaser, the most power-draining device on the station. Why did Lando, aka divine, juicy Bill Will, have to go and destroy the generator itself, thus destroying the entire station and killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives!?!?!?!?!?!? Many in the Empire were not evil...just certain leaders. Moff Jerjerrod was probably mostly good. But maybe he survived the DEATH STAr explosion. Can anyone back this up with some EU sources??????????
Uhh..well there was the whole thing with Jejerrod losing it and resolving to blow up Endor as a last stand. The original intent was to juxtapose this with the final attack on DSII in another retread of the original climax.
The Administrator of this facility always has a cape of some type: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6J7QtwEyN8
