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rancher

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3-Jan-2007
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19-Jan-2007
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Post
#266624
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266624/action/topic#266624
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
Rancher, you "know without a doubt that what you saw was true" as much as Puggo did. Its called a false memory, and its a common, everyday occurance. You remember seeing footage of the Rebels fighting the Wompas, but no such footage ever existed, nor found its way into a film. You are remembering things that are impossible because they were never filmed. It is common to mis-remember things from your childhood--things you swear you saw, that even when you remember it now are there clear as day. I'll repeat, its common, and there are various people within this very thread that "know they saw without a doubt" a certain thing, but years later was just proved to be a delusion. The cut you saw, being 70mm, was indeed different from 35mm prints, but in extremely minor and insignificant ways, thus perhaps planting the seed in your brain that the film was different but then being confused with information gleaned elsewhere. The wompa scenes appeared in trading cards and in the comic books, in stills and publicity photos, they are even prominently featured in the Star Wars Trilogy Arcade Game shooter from 2001 or so. I went into this before about how the inclusion of such scenes as this and General Veers death would require massive measures to be taken, and would not have accidentally "gotten out" and only witnessed by a nine year old and his buddy. The Bacta tank sequence appears to have a shot missing which radically changes the structure, and there are aleternate shot composites and missing wipes, so I'm sure these made you realise that something about the 70mm was changed but in trying to determine what it was your mind just remembered all kinds of stuff that was never in the film in the first place.



zombie84, you are just as gulity as I on the matter of not wanting to admit the possiblity of being wrong about all of this. You have consitantly kept trying to knock this claim down based on only the information that is readily avaliable & your sole belief that you are able to explain almost everything for me, plus many times on my behalf using your imaginary psychological degree. It seems you don't really even read my posts very carefully at times & you don't want to ever consider the possibility of this cut existing.

Quite simply, you don't understand the atmosphere of 1980 North America in anyway at all & cannot relate to any of this. Your way of dealing with my claim is to over generalize everything as much as possible & dismiss the detail as false memories. As belittling & insulting I find the majorty of your replies are to me, some of them were actually useful to provide some clues about all of this.

I've gone through & explained nearly everything previously that you bring up again in this retorical post of yours. We will never agree at this point & it's best to leave at that.

Nonetheless, you'll be the 1st. to know if or when I do find the missing scripts.
Post
#266610
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266610/action/topic#266610
Time
Originally posted by: Puggo - Jar Jar's "Yoda"
Originally posted by: rancher
Originally posted by: zombie84
Rancher, you "know without a doubt that what you saw was true" as much as Puggo did. Its called a false memory, and its a common, everyday occurance. You remember seeing footage of the Rebels fighting the Wompas, but no such footage ever existed, nor found its way into a film.
etc...

Puggo, some of what you wrote I did hear about before, except back in 1979 when the film was re-released. I never saw the cuts you claim & I saw the 35mm version in a different city in Aug '77, but I do remember that many after I moved to Edmonton said the same thing. The one that stands out is the 'addition' of the scene of Vader re-gaining control of his fighter at the end of the film, many believed it wasn't there before & a few of these people had seen the film many more times than you did in '77. It is possible that in this cut played here in 1977 it wasn't in film.


In any case, try to remember that there are a LOT of people who saw a lot of different things. Rather than get all angry that people aren't believing you, just be content that you shared what you think you remember, and that's it. Maybe someday you'll be proven right, even better maybe someday YOU will find proof, which would be very exciting. It's not easy to research this stuff... a lot less was documented permanently then than is documented today, so you may never be able to prove your remembrances. Rather than argue over mine, I spent several months on a quest to find some evidence. I got really close... I actually found some rough preserved footage of the late-night trailers I thought would prove it, but they were incomplete so no cigar.

This is a community of people who share their work and their thoughts. So, rather than ask people to research something for you, try to contribute something new. Ironically, I ended up contributing the Puggo Edition, which had nothing to do with my original puzzle. Maybe my memory was right, maybe not... maybe someday I'll find something out about that, maybe not. But arguing something that nobody else here can corroborate would just make me frustrated. I still think I maybe saw what I saw, but there's no use arguing about it. You've shared your thoughts - that's cool - now decide what you want to do next. I hope you can chase down that missing script, that would be a wonderful find in and of itself.


No doubt & THX.


Post
#266605
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266605/action/topic#266605
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
Rancher, you "know without a doubt that what you saw was true" as much as Puggo did. Its called a false memory, and its a common, everyday occurance. You remember seeing footage of the Rebels fighting the Wompas, but no such footage ever existed, nor found its way into a film. You are remembering things that are impossible because they were never filmed. It is common to mis-remember things from your childhood--things you swear you saw, that even when you remember it now are there clear as day. I'll repeat, its common, and there are various people within this very thread that "know they saw without a doubt" a certain thing, but years later was just proved to be a delusion. The cut you saw, being 70mm, was indeed different from 35mm prints, but in extremely minor and insignificant ways, thus perhaps planting the seed in your brain that the film was different but then being confused with information gleaned elsewhere. The wompa scenes appeared in trading cards and in the comic books, in stills and publicity photos, they are even prominently featured in the Star Wars Trilogy Arcade Game shooter from 2001 or so. I went into this before about how the inclusion of such scenes as this and General Veers death would require massive measures to be taken, and would not have accidentally "gotten out" and only witnessed by a nine year old and his buddy. The Bacta tank sequence appears to have a shot missing which radically changes the structure, and there are aleternate shot composites and missing wipes, so I'm sure these made you realise that something about the 70mm was changed but in trying to determine what it was your mind just remembered all kinds of stuff that was never in the film in the first place.


Puggo, some of what you wrote I did hear about before, except back in 1979 when the film was re-released. I never saw the cuts you claim & I saw the 35mm version in a different city in Aug '77, but I do remember after moved to Edmonton that many (at least a baker's dozen) said the same thing. The one that stands out is the 'addition' of the scene of Vader re-gaining control of his fighter at the end of the film, many believed it wasn't there before & a few of these people had seen the film many more times than you did in '77. It is possible that in this cut played here in 1977 it wasn't in film.

I'd love to share more of what I found with you zombie84, but it is really pointless isn't it?
Post
#266602
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266602/action/topic#266602
Time
Originally posted by: ReverendBeastly
Originally posted by: rancher

How many rape victims have gone thru the same type of scrutiny & problems when the tell their story years later?

That's a fucked up and unnecessary comparison to make when you're talking about a goddamn Star Wars movie.


Yes it was & I apologize about that. I went way over the line to make a point.
Post
#266571
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266571/action/topic#266571
Time
Originally posted by: Bahax
*sigh* ... I shouldn't bother, but ...

rancher, lots of people have a "sharp memory"; I have a "sharp memory", too. How about that?! Let's start a club! Really, it's somewhat condescending to suggest that your memory is so "sharp" as to be infallible. No person's memory is infallible. Scientists the world over will gladly fill you in (condescension intended).

Alas, you refuse to even admit the possibility that you could be mistaken ...

On the other hand, I surely hope that you are right in your recollections! We always gotta have stuff to search for ...

Cheers!


I was being very modest about my statement that I have a sharp memory. I agree that no person's memory is infallible & I never said that mine was. The scientists all over the world can please hold off on contacting me.



Why should I admit to the possibilty that I may be mistaken when I know without a doubt that I'm not? I did present the possiblity that I'm nut & the movie melted my brain to satisfy anyone that wouldn't hear of any of it.

It's like catching your spouse sleeping with somebody else, you walk in the room & catch them red handed. Your so upset you just leave the room & drink your sorrow away at the neighbourhood pub. You stay married & never speak of it again, but are always bothered by it all. Years later you want an explanation & finally get ticked about it. The marriage counselor then wants you to admit the possibility that you may be wrong & that they were just possibliy making the bed. Your spouse also insisted you imagined the entire thing & it never happened. If you were to actually agree with the conuselor & your spouse about the now allegded incident what would that make you exactly?

How many rape victims have gone thru the same type of scrutiny & problems when the tell their story years later?


It's totally impossible that I imagined any of what I claim. It's not just a handful of cuts to the film. TESB I saw was a very different cut altogether, there was even something about the actual reel of the film itself that I could describe to GL & he would likely know after speaking to me for at least 5 mins. that I did see this 'workprint like' test advance cut of the film that is in question. Many believe that there were also no advance showings of the film other to cast & crew. How about NYC (the press) & Chicago Esquire Theater (found second Chicago claim), the bootleg tapes on the streets in the U.S. a week before the opening of the film. There are many misconceptions about TESB & much more evidence at some point will likely be found. Fans need to at least know about it to find something out about it in the first place. I wonder how many people out there right now are sitting on a 27 year old Betamax bootleg that is in fact the cut of the film I'm speaking of & the owner doesn't realize that the tape is any different than what's been re-released. Likely not many at all, but there is a chance that such a tape still exsits. This bootleg tape has been seen & this advance cut of the film is it's contents. One claim from Scott in Chicago & another from Virgina in 1984 from an exchange student from Europe so far.

It is not my problem that many others have difficultly remembering the past, yesterday, last week, last year, half their life whatever their reasons are. Yes, it's a very common problem that I don't fall pray to very often. My 2 viewings of TESB in 1980 were not one these rare occasions.

I would like to id this cut of the film I'm claiming to have seen in 1980 using the scripts + my sharp memory. I believe that this may be possible after reading the 1st. 4th draft script, but I need a newer script than the fourth draft & likely all of the shooting scripts/revisions to compare etc.

That's a good start eh?
Post
#266345
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266345/action/topic#266345
Time
Originally posted by: Puggo - Jar Jar's "Yoda"
Originally posted by: The Starkiller
What I find increasingly frustrating about these claims is that the person making the claim will never admit even the possibility of being wrong.


I fell into that category a few years ago when I bought the ANH Faces VHS tape. Having not seen SW in 20-odd years, I was so annoyed that Luke didn't miss the with the grappling hook, "close the blast doors" was missing, Biggs was nowhere to be found, Luke didn't look up at the fight early in the film, and Vader got away (in my mind, the film made it appear that he was killed by Han). The tape seemed like some sort of edited highlights reel. My memory of the theater was that I saw all those things, but since then I think I've accounted for every one. To wit: (a) "close the blast doors" is obvious, (b) Luke's looking up at the sky turned up on a trading card I forgot I had in a drawer, (c) Vader getting away may have been snipped in the theater for time or I just missed it, and (d) the missing grappling hook I believe was in a late night very early promotional trailer that I have tried and failed to dredge up. The Biggs scene is more puzzling, but I probably saw it or something like it somewhere else.

I was 17 years old in 1977 when I saw it in the theater (4 times in the first month after it opened), and my memory still failed me. I can only imagine what I'd be remembering if I were 7 or 9 at the time.



That's too bad (20 odd years?) & about The Starkiller's Ewok incident as well.


Could be some type of Sith Lord phase because only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes.


What would be really funny is if you actually did see some of those scenes in the film & the kiddies convinced you otherwise.

These aren't the droids your looking for.


I have a very sharp memory & just would like to read the 2 remaining scripts that I have not been able to find without spending thousands.

I want more, and I know I shouldn't.
Post
#266342
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266342/action/topic#266342
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
The fourth draft is available online so who cares.

I don't. I just thought it would be worth a little more than a pack of smokes & cola. I do think that this 4th draft script on eBay was one the possible official reproductions sold to the public in 1980 unless it was a reproduction of the official reproduction.



Here is the thing--whenever you see these scripts being sold by collectors, they are not fascimiles from the studio vault. These scripts are available online and sellers just print them off. You pay for the paper, the ink and the binding, but these are not some secret rare thing, otherwise they would sell for hundreds of dollars. The fifth draft has been available for years--Lucasfilm published it in the 1980 ESB Notebook, in the Empire Strikes Back Illustrated Screenplay, as a stand-alone script, and as part of The Annotated Screenplays. Same goes for ANH and ROTJ. The problem is that these official releases by Lucasfilm are not the true final drafts, they are the final draft edited to the film edit, so you just get what is on screen and not the unfilmed material. The only true final draft we have is for Star Wars because in the late 70's, every single draft of the script, from the 1973 treatment to the 1976 shooting script was leaked and has been circulating on the collectors circuit. Since then Lucasfilm security has been very tight, though luckily a fourth draft of ESB managed to get out, as well as a revised rough draft of ROTJ (which is missing a page or two at the end).

Its not likely that any of the unaccounted for drafts will ever be let out, and because an edited version of the final drafts have been released by Lucasfilm there is not even much demand for them. Supposedly, Leigh Brackett's first draft is available to read at an archival library of some kind, i think at a University somewhere in the southern US. I'm suspicious that this is merely an internet rumour however, and regardless the rumour is that it cannot leave the library grounds so you can't photocopy it or anything. This is the real Holy Grail of star wars scripts, the draft of ESB where Darth Vader was still a seperate character from Father Skywalker. But anyway. The only way to obtain any of the unreleased drafts is if rare personal copies from crew members are auctioned off--i.e. Gary Kurtz' auction from a while back, which i am still fuming that i happened to be broke at that time.


That's interesting info. about Leigh's first draft. If you could actually read it at some University in the U.S. it may be nice to bring somebody with you that has a photographic memory or copy it down on paper when nobody's watching.


Do you know anything about this?

...most of these original production scripts actually got sold off (not auctioned) starting roughly Summer-Fall 1980. The SW fan club was given first shot at them & then they appeared in small 1/8th sized page ads (bottom of page & near the back the mag.) in the popular sci-fi film magazines at the time in the U.S./Canada (not sure about the rest of the world) until the scripts got sold out. He thought that he likely saw the ad. in STARLOG magazine (Anybody have some issues from this period?) etc.

Something else to add to this the 4th draft-the public version (the pricing was: signed (most expensive), then 4th draft upwards it got cheaper) were all released to the public in 1980. The 1st. wave of these drafts were indeed original copies used during the production/filming by cast & crew. A few were signed as well. The 2nd. wave being reproductions (lower price) of these scripts when the originals that were made available became sold out for a limited time.

If you can verfiy the info. above it would be interesting to know what you find. It may be useful information for yourself if any of it is true. That is if your have too much time on you hands, got those scripts on your mind & don't mind searching for those wasted years. I know that last bit barely makes sense, but I'm guessing you can figure out the secret nod.



Sure, other real scripts etc. got auctioned off over the years by the cast/crew from their personal collections as well, of course these are the big ticket items & the most sought after copies by fans like yourself (especially ones actually annotated by GL or other key production members). I really want to see the 1st. 5th draft because the sample page on this auction I did see makes me think that this is possibly the script I've been wanting to read the most & also likely making you 100% correct (depending on what is not dropped from the Hoth scenes scripted in the 4th draft) about one of our previous discussions about the these scripts. Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme.
Post
#266098
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266098/action/topic#266098
Time
Check your pm Laserman.

It looks like this wabbit got away on 21-Oct-06 21:15:58 AEST for AU $61.00. I didn't think to check the cached pages on a eBay Google result before. I don't think it was the exact same listing I said I found earlier because this one wasn't a photocopy. I think the kid that did buy it though IS making photocopies & selling them on eBay. That may explain the orphaned first listing I found last week that was very similar. The buyer is not registered anymore & doesn't have the best rep. He is likely using a different I.D. now & whatnot to sell the photocopies I'm guessing. I'm just seeing if the seller can add anything else to this other than:

Sorry mate, I sold my only copy a year ago.

It's a hit? Negative, it didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface.

I certainly sympathize with Jambe’s anger about these slime balls on eBay. It is so difficult to get decent seats to any event in the city now because of them.
Post
#266066
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/266066/action/topic#266066
Time
One thing about this 5th draft script that I don't like is the 20th Century Fox logo (but it does look like it was stamped on). It just doesn't feel right even though it is one of their productions. Plus, the 4th draft auction has some code on the bottom on the page meaning that's an official one (?) & the front page is in color (?).

Jambe, let me know if the seller sends any more samples as I haven't got back any reply from them yet & I don't think I will.
Post
#265993
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265993/action/topic#265993
Time
Sorry Laserman, the Aussie result was last week. I did try for the last hour to get it to come up again. I believe I was using these keywords to search: The Empire Strikes Back Fifth Draft photocopy Feb 79 with Google. It came up pretty much just that & also had (not an original) beside the word photocopy and then something about the starting bid 0.99 AU in the Google description. After I clicked on it I just got redirected. Sorry, didn't think you could find something out about it at that point. I wish I knew someone may have wanted to do the old carrot & on a stick search afterwards.

I was told by a collector of SW toys to maybe check "The Making of TESB" pocketbook & read the GL interviews for more info. to see about BASED ON THE NOVEL etc. I can't because I still don't have it. It may not be necessary now after zombie84's confirmation (thx), but it may be nice to know what the reason was if it is explained because the 1st. 4th draft also has it as well on the one up at eBay now.

I was also told that most of these original production scripts actually got sold off (not auctioned) starting roughly Summer-Fall 1980. The SW fan club was given first shot at them & then they appeared in small 1/8th sized page ads (bottom of page & near the back the mag.) in the popular sci-fi film magazines at the time in the U.S./Canada (not sure about the rest of the world) until the scripts got sold out. He thought that he likely saw the ad. in STARLOG magazine (Anybody have some issues from this period?) about that time & maybe others like HEAVY METAL or even a science mag. called OMNI. A few were autographed & more expensive, just like this 1st. fifth draft listed on eBay.

The typing mistake on the draft could easily be explained. It's a typing mistake. I'm guessing at this; but in 1979; if GL came up & told you to type 600 copies on a typewriter by Thrusday I'm sure a few mistakes could get by you. I doubt it was put on any mammoth computer at the time for printing as George was paranoid about security leaks.

I wonder if this is included in the package:

February 19, 1979
Correspondence from Irvin Kershner to George Lucas, regarding revisions to pages 143-160.
Source: Bouzereau: p. 123

I see on the sample page 02/19/79 is on the corner.




Post
#265668
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265668/action/topic#265668
Time
Jambe, I see that the only revision on the page given (when comparing with the 1st. 4th draft) as a sample photo is:

LUKE
(hesitates)
… to another system …not far …

Please also check this item:

184. PRODUCER'S SCRIPT FOR STAR WARS: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Use the zoom function to look carefully at the first page for item 184. This one here also has FROM THE NOVEL BY GEORGE LUCAS. I don't believe that is it refering to that actual novelization of the film or at least what ended up being done later. It may be a reference to appease somebody else? A big wig suit? Maybe a smoke screen tactic used during filming? Can it be checked in books/articles you have to see if something was ever mentioned about this maybe?

Something about this scene may be helpful for a sample page.

A couple of minor observations only & I saw this fourth draft auction earlier as well. I am actually satisfied enough with the free copy found on the internet myself. However if this one is legit a nice complete scan of this 1st. 4th draft may be enjoyable & the next best thing for many others if they couldn’t get an original.

I've had a bad experience on eBay before & I've paid too much as well. I always have a bad feeling about buying this way, but I don't know if these scripts (the other being 4.R) will ever show up in the public domain if the fans don't take 'em away from the complusive hoarders one way or another.


Post
#265639
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265639/action/topic#265639
Time
Here is what appears to be the 1st. 5th draft of TESB up for auction. Very expensive, it’s over $2,300.00 CAN & it is autographed by some production members.

It would be nice to get this out of the hands of collectors hoarding it to themselves especially after 27 years. I understand why they may though, if I where to fit the entire bill I would want back my investment at the very least if I were to put up for sale again. I recall a year or so ago some hardcore Genesis fans all got together, pooled & purchased the only film print of a performance of the group in 1973 from a collector that wanted some bucks. The fans also put this film into the public domain to be downloaded freely on torrent sites for the DVD format after their purchase. Since this is a preservation forum…

I did contact this seller to see if they would be willing to send me just a photocopy or the equivalent in whatever format they choose for much lower than their asking price for this draft. I’m sure they had a good laugh. It would be worth up to $200.00 - $300.00 CAN to at least to have a photocopy of this exact draft for sale to read considering I don’t really know what it is that I’m buying or if it would really be as helpful to me as I believe. However, I did see evidence of a listing of a photocopy for sale in Australia of a 1st. 5th draft for TESB, but the eBay posting is gone after clicking on the Google result. This Australian photocopy could have been a fake, but who knows?

You know my motivation for wanting a copy & just maybe there are others here that may have another reason that they may enjoy to have a copy of this. Possibly there could be a raffle of the original between yourselves or can share it amongst yourselves at different times of the year if we were to pool the purchase. Of course, we can always wait & see what turns up in the future hopefully for free.
Post
#265149
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265149/action/topic#265149
Time
Originally posted by: Sluggo
Yeah, sadly the online scripts will only get you so far. Which is too bad because the scripts are out there. Locked up in a safe place no doubt, far away from the internet.

If we could get this thread back on track, it seems that the few differences of this supposed screener version of Empire had only the one visual difference (the end sequence) and a handful of audio differences. Since we have access to a large share of these audio differences from the 8mm version and the Story of the Empire Strikes Back album, and since we have a few "eye-witnesses" to what the final sequence looked like, would it be possible to do a 'virtual' earlier cut?



That is a very disappointing possibility you present about the missing scripts. The online scripts actually have gotten me a little closer to understanding this mystery, particularly the 1st. Fourth Draft. If these scripts are indeed locked up in a safe place, it would be sure nice of someone that is in possesion of these & that may likely visit this forum once in a while to possibly share them with us here in some electronic format of their choosing.

The few differences you refer to are actually from the comparisons of the two very common 1980 70mm versions of the film + the 35mm version (I never saw the 35mm cut in the theatre) & not what I like to refer to as the Advance Cut which is what I’ve been claiming to have seen. It’s too bad you are not willing to unlearn what you have learned without a signed & sealed confession from George Lucas or some of the other key production members that they haven’t been telling the entire truth all this time whatever their reasons are. I understand where you are coming from about this distrubance in the force though.

The virtual cut project that you suggest may be a good one for Marc from Seattle or Michael Matessino that wrote about the differences of the final scene. It certainly would be in line with what George has been doing with modifying the original films at his pleasure & would be very exciting to other members that enjoy the fan edits.

Number20, it is interesting to me that many fans enjoy re-constructions of the soundtrack elements of these films. I didn’t know of the sound differences sighted in the original film until I viewed the Deleted Magic. I really did enjoy the de-construction of ANH in that film. I am looking forward to the NTSC version of Jambe’s Building the Empire & will check that out as soon as that is ready.

Post
#264811
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264811/action/topic#264811
Time
I am thinking that I am not going to find these 4.R & 1st 5th draft scripts at all.

Here is something interesting I found searching:

184. PRODUCER'S SCRIPT FOR STAR WARS: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (Maybe one of the master amendment/finalization/editing bibles?)


This is the complete shooting script for TESB, used by producer Gary Kurtz during filming. Many of the scripts used filming were incomplete, as some aspects of the film's storyline & dialogue were kept secret even from etc. however contains some divergences in dialogue etc.


4th draft (incomplete) shooting script, 4.R draft (incomplete) shooting script etc...The Mask of TESB?


183. SCRIPT REVISION OF THE FOURTH DRAFT OF STAR WARS: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

It is 59 pages of changes annotated by GL, changes in red. (Anybody have it?)


You will need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to view the pdf (Free).

Some very cool stuff in this file & don't forget to zoom.
VIEW THE PDF
Post
#264595
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264595/action/topic#264595
Time
Originally posted by: rancher
Originally posted by: zombie84
The fourth draft wasn't used to shot any part of the film. Its pretty wildly different from the film, containing many sequences that were changed, cut out and heavily refised, and even a look at the dialog itself reveals a pretty different incarnation of the film, close as it may be to the final version--this is no surprise considering it was written six months before production, and even before major pre-production had begun. A version of the fifth draft is available in all those "Star Wars script books", including The Annotated Screenplays itself.

Yes I know the dialogue is wildly different. That is something that I haven't discussed yet & that's why I'm saying that this and/or maybe the 4.R (which I haven't found yet & would like to compare) was used to shoot everything on Hoth. It was just like it was written in this 4th draft script aside when the director or one the actors made a change for whatever reason, however slight or very minor. All of the scenes for the Hoth part of the script were filmed & in the cut aside from the rebel soldiers conflict with the Wampa. That scene wasn’t quite like it was in this 1st. 4th draft of the script.

Here is perfect example(alternate take/more dialogue)

Find:

45. INT COMMAND CENTER - REBEL BASE up to 54. SPACE - IMPERIAL FLEET

I'm going to knock on the impossible door again & say I can remember ALL of that dialogue exactly being in the cut I describe in scenes 45-54. My memory IS that good. It's a great example of the scope of the dialogue cuts made throughout the Hoth footage that were still in the cut I describe.

*****

This 4th draft quickly goes completely out the window after leaving Hoth. I think by this point they moved on to using a newer draft after filming Hoth & that is another reason I would like to see the scripts I'm requesting. You say the 4th draft is incorrectly labeled as the shooting script. I don't believe that at all based on the cut of the film I did see.

I am thinking that these later script drafts plus their revisions became the chopping scripts & the shooting script for the mid-end of the film as opposed to being strictly shooting scripts at some point during the filming process as George, the writer plus the editors were looking over the shot footage & trying to figure out how the rest of the movie, particularly the Bespin footage should play out. Maybe they also used the following scripts as some possible type of editing guide & revision guide to update any dialogue that may have been changed by the actors/director etc as the filming went along. Until I read the other two scripts & see about getting a copy of the Making of TESB pocketbook (looks pretty easy to get one sent/found a source on the net) it’s just my best guess at how the film was put together at this point.

I think that they used all these drafts I listed to shoot the film & the later ones to also help edit the film. It would have also certainly made it harder for spies/untrustworthy production members inside/outside the filming to leak the script & spoil the end cliffhanger for the film's future audiences. I'm sure that a stolen script for SW2 would have fetched some big cash prior to release.

Humor me for a little while longer, even if you still don't or never will buy what I'm saying.


Originally posted by: zombie84
The fourth draft wasn't used to shoot any of the film. It was written months before production began. A new draft was penned just before shooting. The fourth draft is the fourth draft, not a shooting script. And it goes out the window even on Hoth--theres different scenes of the rebel P.A announcers fighting Imperials and many different such scenes. Productions don't use one draft to shoot one section of the film and then another draft to shoot another section--if theres stuff in the fourth draft that they liked then thats carried over into the next one. But keep clutching at those straws.


Yes, I know what you are getting at & I know that it was written before the shoot. I think this production did in fact use more than one script & they may have for possibly reasons that I gave in my last post. I don't believe any of these draft scripts are mislabeled. Why do you think that they are? Yes, there are more scenes/alternate versions of scenes (like in my example)/much more dialogue that we haven't talked about yet that were also cut. Rebel P.A. announcers fighting Imperials??? You are over generalizing about how all movie productions work & you also did just that with the 70mm printing process earlier. I don't believe the production process was so black & white with TESB.

BTW I still haven't found the scripts for 4.R & the 1st. 5th draft. Do they not exsit in the fan circles?
Post
#264566
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264566/action/topic#264566
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
The fourth draft wasn't used to shot any part of the film. Its pretty wildly different from the film, containing many sequences that were changed, cut out and heavily refised, and even a look at the dialog itself reveals a pretty different incarnation of the film, close as it may be to the final version--this is no surprise considering it was written six months before production, and even before major pre-production had begun. A version of the fifth draft is available in all those "Star Wars script books", including The Annotated Screenplays itself.


Yes I know the dialogue is wildly different. That is something that I haven't discussed yet & that's why I'm saying that this and/or maybe the 4.R (which I haven't found yet & would like to compare) was used to shoot everything on Hoth. It was just like it was written in this 4th draft script aside when the director or one the actors made a change for whatever reason, however slight or very minor. All of the scenes for the Hoth part of the script were filmed & in the cut aside from the rebel soldiers conflict with the Wampa. That scene wasn’t quite like it was in this 1st. 4th draft of the script.

Here is perfect example(alternate take/more dialogue)

Find:

45. INT COMMAND CENTER - REBEL BASE up to 54. SPACE - IMPERIAL FLEET

I'm going to knock on the impossible door again & say I can remember ALL of that dialogue exactly being in the cut I describe in scenes 45-54. My memory IS that good. It's a great example of the scope of the dialogue cuts made throughout the Hoth footage that were still in the cut I describe.

*****

This 4th draft quickly goes completely out the window after leaving Hoth. I think by this point they moved on to using a newer draft after filming Hoth & that is another reason I would like to see the scripts I'm requesting. You say the 4th draft is incorrectly labeled as the shooting script. I don't believe that at all based on the cut of the film I did see.

I am thinking that these later script drafts plus their revisions became the chopping scripts & the shooting script for the mid-end of the film as opposed to being strictly shooting scripts at some point during the filming process as George, the writer plus the editors were looking over the shot footage & trying to figure out how the rest of the movie, particularly the Bespin footage should play out. Maybe they also used the following scripts as some possible type of editing guide & revision guide to update any dialogue that may have been changed by the actors/director etc as the filming went along. Until I read the other two scripts & see about getting a copy of the Making of TESB pocketbook (looks pretty easy to get one sent/found a source on the net) it’s just my best guess at how the film was put together at this point.

I think that they used all these drafts I listed to shoot the film & the later ones to also help edit the film. It would have also certainly made it harder for spies/untrustworthy production members inside/outside the filming to leak the script & spoil the end cliffhanger for the film's future audiences. I'm sure that a stolen script for SW2 would have fetched some big cash prior to release.

Humor me for a little while longer, even if you still don't or never will buy what I'm saying.
Post
#264381
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264381/action/topic#264381
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
Originally posted by: rancher
Originally posted by: Jambe Davdar
Originally posted by: Sluggo
I don't trust the wiki.


Neither do I, but this Movie Score magazine articles preceeds it. The Wiki entry is taken almost word for word from this article, not the other way around.

Lets face it, we won't know unless one of us tracks down a 70mm print and takes a look. But this is the next best thing.


Thanks everyone for looking into this further.

70mm versions:

#1 - THE ADVANCE CUT (The likely intended sneak preview/extended & different test cut - low # of prints)

Edmonton, AB (Canada) Start of this thread.
Chicago, IL (U.S.A.) Maybe. Amazon claim provided by Laserman.
Germany Claim provided by Laserman.

This Advance Cut might be the same as the one shown May 6th, 1980 @ Fox Studios.


#2 - THE UNFINISHED CUT (The majorty of the first-wave engagements & the "less complete" version)


#3 - THE EXPANSION CUT (The second-wave engagements released on June 18, 1980 & June 27, 1980. Likely used for all future re-releases)


I'm sure many here have given this a glance or two. This was a fun read for me. I'm convinced that this is one of the shooting scripts & pretty much the the 1st. key to advance cut of the film without a doubt.

The 1st. 4th Draft of TESB


That script is the fourth draft, written way back in November of 1978 i believe. There was another revision done, then a fifth draft written in february of 1979 in preparation for shooting in March. The script itself underwent some fairly extensive changes even from the shooting script however (the real shooting script that is, dont know why the fourth draft is mislabelled as such).



The beginning right up to leaving Hoth seems to be pretty much dead on in the 4th draft from 10/24/1978, but some of the Bespin stuff is right out there. I am thinking that this or maybe the 4.R draft script was used to shoot the first part of the film. I will say that almost everything up to the end of Hoth was filmed. Minor dialogue changes from what I read in this 1st. 4th draft. Reading this was the next best thing to actually seeing this cut again.

Here is the list of the shooting scripts:

TESB.4.
October 24, 1978.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Fourth Draft by Lawrence Kasdan. Shooting Script.
Source: Bouzereau: p. 123.
A Lawrence Kasdan quote from Starlog # 51 (October 1981): "[When he accepted the Empire assignment, Kasdan was handed a second draft script to work from that George Lucas had written.] George's draft was something that he wrote very quickly, when Leigh passed away. George had the story very well outlined […]"
A Lawrence Kasdan quote from Cinefantastique Vol. 28, No. 28 (February 1997): "What I worked on was a draft of the script George had written, based on the story George had given to Leigh [Brackett]. I don't know what of Leigh's draft survived into the draft George wrote. What George handed me was a very rough first draft, really somewhere between an outline and a first draft. The structure of the story was all there - it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle."

November 1978.
Script Conference for two weeks between George Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan, Irvin Kershner & Gary Kurtz. (Apparently, no transcript exists since Bouzereau does not mention this conference.)
Source: Pollock: p. 229.

TESB.4.R.
December 5, 1978-January 1 & 4, 1979.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Revised Fourth Draft by Lawrence Kasdan. 163 pages. 435 scenes. Shooting script.

February 19, 1979
Correspondence from Irvin Kershner to George Lucas, regarding revisions to pages 143-160.
Source: Bouzereau: p. 123.

TESB.5.
February 20, 1979.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Fifth Draft by Lawrence Kasdan. Shooting Script.

TESB.5.R.
March 19, July 23, August 24 1979.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Revised Fifth Draft by Lawrence Kasdan. 157 pages. 435 scenes. Shooting Script.

All through 1979-1980.
Subsequent revisions from director Irvin Kershner and actors. Many of these dialogue changes were not to the liking of screenwriter Lawrence Kasdan.

Published Scripts:

TESB.PV.
November 1980.
The Empire Strikes Back.
Public Version of Revised Fifth Draft. No dates. No scene numbers. Edited to fit the finished film.
Printed in The Empire Strikes Back Notebook, Ballantine Books 1980. Edited by Diana Attias & Lindsay Smith.

List from:
The Connoisseur's Guide to the Scripts of the Star Wars Saga

I am unable to find any others & I would like to compare these scripts. Anybody know the links?

BTW thanks zombie84. I wouldn't have looked at these without your persistent technical readouts.
Post
#264343
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264343/action/topic#264343
Time
Originally posted by: Jambe Davdar
Originally posted by: Sluggo
I don't trust the wiki.


Neither do I, but this Movie Score magazine articles preceeds it. The Wiki entry is taken almost word for word from this article, not the other way around.

Lets face it, we won't know unless one of us tracks down a 70mm print and takes a look. But this is the next best thing.


Thanks everyone for looking into this further.

70mm versions:

#1 - THE ADVANCE CUT (The likely intended sneak preview/extended & different test cut - low # of prints)

Edmonton, AB (Canada) Start of this thread.
Chicago, IL (U.S.A.) Maybe. Amazon claim provided by Laserman.
Germany Claim provided by Laserman.

This Advance Cut might be the same as the one shown May 6th, 1980 @ Fox Studios.


#2 - THE UNFINISHED CUT (The majorty of the first-wave engagements & the "less complete" version)


#3 - THE EXPANSION CUT (The second-wave engagements released on June 18, 1980 & June 27, 1980. Likely used for all future re-releases)


I'm sure many here have given this a glance or two. This was a fun read for me. I'm convinced that this is one of the shooting scripts & pretty much the the 1st. key to advance cut of the film without a doubt.

The 1st. 4th Draft of TESB