YanniD

Matt_Stevens said:

I'm assuming I can just make my own DVD5 from the AVCHD or MKV.

Yes, however if making a DVD yourself, the mkv is the better source due to the higher bitrate than AVCHD.

If Bluray equipment is available, eschew the DVD for a proper Bluray created from the mkv using either ClownBD or TsMuxer.  You can select which soundtracks to include out of the large number available and which to make the default selection, to make playback easier, since there won't be menus.

If you really want menus and to include say the documentary or any other video on the same disc, you can use MultiAVCHD, but it has a relatively steep learning curve.

As I understand it, each frame of the 16mm film has been captured by a camera that interlaces each frame, using the DV 4:1:1 format, with the individual frames physically advanced at a 30fps rate through the camera.

If each interlaced DV field is woven back together with its associate, each resulting progressive frame should have no combing unless the film frame moved between each field being captured by the camera.

DV 4:1:1 only captures 1/4 of the chroma in each scanline, so the pixel equivalent of chroma for each frame is only 180x480.  If the expansion of chroma is not performed properly, you can get what look like combing artifacts because of the huge horizontal chroma compression.

Ideally, one would want to use an expansion algorithm that is the exact inverse of the DV compression algorithm, but IIRC all you get is a range of DV decoders that do not necessarily match exactly and give varying results.

IIRC, there were some favoured DV decoders that did a better job than others and there were reviews on Doom9 (Cedocida being the best IIRC).

Avisynth has a very specific function created to properly expand DV 4:1:1 called Reinterpolate411().

I found Reinterpolate411() invaluable when capturing Star Wars laserdisc frames via DV and analogue capture card in an experiment to see which was better for fidelity to the original many years ago.

It is possible your processing of the DV requires a better DV decoder and/or initial processing via the Reinterpolate411() Avisynth function.

Since you seem to be using Avisynth for some part of the processing, I would recommend including Reinterpolate411() and using Cedocida decoder if possible to see if results can be improved, before resorting to interlace deflicker and sharpening processes to remove those "combing" artifacts.

Anchorhead said:

Disney doesn't give someone 4 billion dollars and then allow that person to continue making business decisions for them.  Yet there are people here, in the above article, and all over TFN who think he's still part of the franchise.

It's likely there were conditions attached to that $4B, such as never releasing the rights to original IV in any better format than the current GOUT whilst GL is still alive.

Difficult to understand why GL is still so resistant to an original IV release in the best possible quality as many, many Blurays have theatrical, director's, unrated, etc cuts coexisting quite happily; plus the GOUT was released (albeit in crippled quality).

Does anyone know why the Technicolor print can't be used for a 4k original IV release?  Is it only because of rights issues and the fact there are so few copies, or was it actually a "perverted" form of the original already?

Maybe I misunderstand how BD authoring works, but couldn't you create 21 playlists, each with the main video and a single audio track and just select the desired playlist (ie audio track) from a list of 21 links to the individual playlists?

I'm assuming that subtitles can be selected from a separate menu at the beginning without having to have a huge matrix of audio/subtitle combinations.

I too have noticed that some players handle media files differently from official Bluray or DVD structure, so the quality of mkv can not be guaranteed.  This need not be a deterrent since mkv can be converted into simple Bluray structure and burnt to a disc to appear like a real Bluray disc.  Of course there is still the issue of having to select audio/subtitles through the player instead of a proper menu, but my suggestion still stands of including a static introduction presenting the menu of subtitle and audio options to facilitate selecting the number of the desired value through the player and then going forward or back a chapter to restart at the beginning of the movie proper.

All the hassles with BD authoring is why I tend to stick to mkv.

It's not difficult to create an introductory mkv with audio channels listed that is like a menu but without the possibility of selection.  Then you just choose the correct track number in the movie via the player and chapter backwards.  Extras are just additional mkv files.

If you want to get fancy, you create the menu/intro in the same format as the movie and combine it into the one file, making the intro long enough to make soundtrack selections before the movie starts and you create a chapter point to take you directly to the start of the movie if you don't want to bother with the menu/intro.

Many players will auto progress to the next file in the list, so you can start with the "menu" file and then let it run.  The only thing you need to do is change soundtrack and subtitle if necessary for the main movie.

Menus are overrated IMO.

Harmy said:

When you preview the menu in multiAVCHD, it shows only six tracks in that small box but that is only static preview with no actual functions, so I thought maybe, when you create the menu, it might actually scroll down to the others but I have yet to figure out a way to test this without actually creating and burning the whole disc.

Why don't you cut the mkv down to the first 5 minutes, call it Source and use that as the source when running the Bluray build?

When happy with the result, run the build on the full mkv renamed as Source.

The only difference between the two will be the number of chapter markers and the length/size.

Harmy said:

Well, yes, if they actually delivered a proper release, with good detail, no visible DNR and proper colors, I'd call it a day too :)

 A quick scan of the Technicolor print at 720p on iTunes would not be beyond their capability and would likely satisfy many fans without it detracting from their Bluray releases, whilst still being an improvement over GOUT.

Or is the Technicolor print not the original undoctored deal?

One wonders why an actor involved in the movies has no better access to an original source than we humble folk.

Chrisedge said:

Can anyone PM me or post the best way to convert the MKV to a BD WITH a Menu and retaining all the audio tracks? I have demuxed the whole thing, and tried rebuilding it in DVD Architect but it didn't like the DTS files, nor the H264 video. I tried renaming the h264 to mp4 etc...and nothing seemed to work. Please no comments about just using the MKV and using a streaming device (which i already have...) and telling me how physical media is dead, blah blah blah. Or telling me to just wait...

As I understand it, there are no freeware Bluray authoring packages (or even affordable commercial packages) that can handle the number of audio tracks in the mkv.

I believe MultiAVCHD can create a Bluray with menus from an mkv directly, but only with a limited number of soundtracks.

Check back through the thread as Harmy intended to try a 30 day trial of software that may support all the soundtracks.

From what I recall about DVD Architect, you just use it to create the menu and then manually edit the structure to shoehorn in the Bluray files.

I think you may have to ditch some of the soundtracks to get this to work right now, or worst case, create two versions of the movie with half the soundtracks on each:  using MultiAVCHD.

Physical media is not dead, but I think the population is starting to move to streaming services instead:  granted more work needs to be done to make it more stable, however why buy physical media when you will only watch it occasionally due to there being so much material to choose from.

So much material is available in mkv format that it is more cost effective to get a media player or Bluray player that can handle the format on attached USB drive than converting to optical media each time.

Meanwhile, I have greatly enjoyed watching the v2.5 mkv:  no need for a Bluray.

Seriously people, research and buy a cheap media/bluray player that will upconvert 720p24 to 1080p24 from a USB drive and watch v2.5 in all its goodness:  the days of DVD are over and Bluray optical discs are rapidly going the same way.  It's worth it to see Star Wars as it should be seen, right now.

Buster D said:

An Oppo 80, actually.  But thanks anyways.  I plan on building a new desktop PC eventually, so I guess I'll just make my own 1080p24 upscale.  Although one made directly from Harmy's 720p24 master instead of the compressed encode would probably look better.

I feel your pain:  I wasn't able to get good consistent high quality playback of most media until I purchased an Oppo 93, before that I was chasing media players and other cheaper players that always had some compromise.  The Oppo 93 is not perfect, but it's the closest I have come.

The other way to get better playback results is to invest in a Bluray burner and burn as much as possible to Bluray structure:  it's the one thing guaranteed to be supported properly in a Bluray player (mkv etc are bonuses that may or may not work, even the Oppo 93 has a few mkv caveats).

Bluray discs are as cheap per GB as DVD now and with less issues with layer changes, although burners are not yet quite as cheap.

CatBus said:

YanniD said:

An Oppo 93 and above will output 1080p24 from 720p24

Actually not entirely true.  In the same firmware that removed ISO support on the 93, a bug was fixed with the side-effect that 720p24 could no longer be output as 1080p24.  As far as I know, it's not fixed yet and may not be fixable, as I believe the two bugs are two sides of the same hardware bug.  If you still have the ISO firmware, you're fine, but then you have the other scaling bug and any other bugs fixed since.

Thanks for that clarification:  I wasn't aware that it was still an issue.

Needless to say, my Oppo 93 still has the ISO firmware that will get updated only when hell freezes over.  The bugs are a nuisance, but do not outweigh the advantages of ISO/24p.

I believe Nvidia handles 24p correctly and the new Haswell HD5000 is supposed to correct that bug too, although they each have their own other issues, but I guess even PC have gremlins as a result of studio pressure.  I still think a PC is the most flexible player as it is much easier to upgrade or modify than relying on a manufacturer who is more interested in selling you a new player each time.

The reality is that no (affordable) piece of electronic equipment is perfect or even close, so you just have to makes yer choice and pays yer price.

Since I'm not in the USA, I can't comment on which cheap Bluray players there can handle 720p24, but the Toshiba 3200, Audiosonic BR-5.1SW and Laser 1080 can, in my experience.  However, both the Audiosonic and Laser do not support RGB digital output.

In retrospect, after considering the OP's reason for 1080p24 and the bugs in just about every player, I now tend to agree that having a 1080p24 encode would probably overcome many of those obstacles to suitable playback.

Don't you just hate it when the studios force you to do more work just to see something correctly?

Buster D said:

Thanks for the tips, but my laptop doesn't have HDMI, so I can't get DTS-MA or LPCM 5.1 no matter what codecs I have.

My projector will of course accept 1080i, but that still results in pulldown judder. My girlfriend's 120hz Sony TV will remove judder from 60hz progressive sources, but she doesn't have an AVR or anything, just the TV speakers.

What players will output 1080p24 from 720p24? Probably won't bother getting another one (already have an Oppo, a PS3, a Panasonic 3D player, and two Blu-ray recorders), but I'm curious if this feature really works.

An Oppo 93 and above will output 1080p24 from 720p24 mkv, however it won't output DTS-HD (just the core if you are lucky).  However, if you convert the mkv to Bluray structure (as BDMV folder on USB drive or burned to Bluray disc) an Oppo 93 will play it back just fine in full resolution.

You are probably going to tell me next that you have an Oppo 83.

The cheap Bluray players will often output 1080p24 from 720p24, but I can't help you with which one.

The best solution is to construct an HTPC:  that is the only solution that is completely under your control and flexible enough to handle any codec thrown at it.  All standalone devices are crippled in some way:  the studios don't want to make it easy for you to play copies of their "copyright" material in full resolution.

Buster D said:

I'd kinda like to have an 1080p version since that seems to be the only way for me to optimally watch version 2.5. My PC can't handle DTS-MA, and playing 2.5 on my Blu-ray player after remuxing the MKV into a Blu-ray structure only allows playback at 720p60 or 1080p60, not 1080p24, so I get pulldown judder.

I'd be fine with just an upscale of the 720p24 master, if Harmy can't do it perhaps someone else would be up for the task? I'd volunteer myself but I only have a low-end laptop at the moment.

If you can use the LAV filters and find the Arcsoft dtsdecoderdll.dll, a PC should be capable of decoding DTS-HD.  Also, the latest ffdshow filters will decode the DTS-HD MA core.

Alternatively, many TVs support IVTC (converting 60i->24p) internally, so if you can output from your Bluray player as 1080i60, you may still be able to get 1080p24 on the screen.

Some of the cheap Bluray players will upscale 720p24 to 1080p24.

If you have an HD audio capable AVR, you should be able to bitstream DTS-HD MA from your PC.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

+1 to splitting a large mkv file into smaller pieces for FAT32:  you can split at main chapter points where there are logical break points or fades to black.  I'm familiar with having to change laserdisc sides, so it's a no-brainer for me.

Harmy said:

I do believe they could do better than this, seeing as how I'm using old LD masters for many shots and the whole thing is still a bit of a patch-work.

Would a 4K transfer of a Technicolor print be the definitive original version?

Is George Lucas the only obstacle to accomplishing this?

waspattck said:

I'm starting to gain an appreciation for how tough this BR menu authoring can be.......MultiAVCHD seems to shut off full-menu capability when it enters BR Mode.

IIRC, when importing the source, you can specify a trim to limit the amount of the file used.  This means one can render a test version on a shorter part of the material so it doesn't take too long and you can revise the menus etc quickly.  When happy, remove the trim so that the full input file is used.

ClownBD (Windows only) contains all the software needed to create a Bluray structure from an mkv, including TSmuxer.

I think DTS-HD MA mono causes problems because it is not assigned to any particular channel and the player has to interpret what to do.

It might make more sense to encode as duplicated stereo or 5.1 center (with other channels silent) so that systems know exactly what to do with it.

Unlike DVD, Bluray does not require any special layer break provision AFAIK.

If you wanted both movie and bonus extras on the one disc, you could use a BD50 for the extras and include the movie mkv as a separate file, but it would mean no menus for the movie.  The other alternative is to get Harmy's MultiAVCHD project files and modify to combine the menus (mkv make great source files).

Finally, perhaps the easiest approach is for Harmy to make a combined disc project and separate disc projects, linking to a common set of mkv source files.  If the MultiAVCHD projects are distributed along with the individual mkv files, the end user can create the final result as required, without downloading any more than they need to.

http://linkdecrypter.com/ extracted all the links from a copy and paste of the 37 multiupload links without fuss.

Not sure if all links were working, but certainly enough are to get all 37 rar files and extract the mkv successfully.

Can't stand special downloaders like jdownloader.

It's marvelous work Harmy, thanks.

If you can provide mkv files for the extras, I won't even need to get the eventual Bluray version as I consider menus relatively unimportant and content rules supreme.

ClownBD will also convert an mkv into Bluray structure, but if you are going to be playing lots of 720p mkv files, I recommend investing in a media player that can play mkv via USB.  Quite a few cheap Bluray players have satisfactory USB playback for 720p24 mkv upscaled to 1080p24.

CatBus said:

It's strictly tsmuxergui that creates a PGS stream from text when you create an M2TS, wasn't aware we were talking about MKV.

EDIT:

Actually, we were talking about M2TS, not MKV. So yeah, tsmuxer creates a PGS stream on-the-fly from text, and that PGS stream is the one flickering.  I've seen something like this before and fixed it, but apparently this is a different situation because my fix didn't work.

Right:  didn't know TSmuxer could create PGS on-the-fly.

Have you tried something like GoSup to create PGS from srt, or passed the PGS through BDsup2sub?

Since 720p24 is not a usual Bluray resolution, maybe TSmuxer is automatically changing the framerate for the subtitle to its nearest supported value.

It was my understanding that simply muxing srt subs to mkv retains them as text objects and are thus dependent in their appearance and presentation on the renderer used in the player and its default handling (ie font style, colour, size and positioning).  I don't think muxers usually change or convert text objects:  this requires other software.

External srt subs are useful in that they can often be played along with an mkv, although only a single instance is allowed which must be named the same as the mkv file.  Being external they can be readily edited for changes.  Muxing srt into an mkv file allows multiple subtitles to be incorporated and any forced subtitle identified, but it is up to the player to permit selection and the honouring of forced attributes.  Editing of muxed srt subs requires demuxing and remuxing:  a reasonably simple process, but more complex than simply using external subs.

If one wants consistent subtitle presentation regardless of renderer and a specific font style, colour, size and position, then graphic based subtitles are required (specifically PGS for Bluray standard).  These can not be as readily edited as srt subs and are therefore desirable once the subtitles have been finalised and require no more changes.  I understand EasySup and GoSup are freeware for converting srt subs to PGS.

BDsup2sub is freeware that permits modifying characteristics of graphic subtitles (scaling, positioning, palette, etc) but can not edit the text itself.

I am unsure whether Harmy intends to use a specific font style, size, colour and positioning for subtitles, but if so then PGS subtitles are the solution for the Bluray.  Whether these PGS subtitles are included in the mkv is a different matter, however it is quite easy to mux standalone PGS or srt files into an mkv with mkvmerge and so these files could be supplied individually and independently of the mkv.

An mkv makes a very good pre-container for a Bluray since software such as ClownBD can convert mkv to Bluray structure quite easily, plus the mkv is effectively presented as the final Bluray (apart from menus) in players which support it.

hairy_hen said:

As far as I can make out, when making an MKV file it's okay if the two are on different tracks, but in Bluray format they have to be muxed together, so hopefully the program is capable of combining them, since the Dolby encoder will only provide them as separate files.

Eac3to will decode a plain MLP soundtrack into DD and interleave it with the MLP.  I'm not sure if it can take separate MLP and DD soundtracks and interleave them.

I think DTS is less popular in hardware because of the licensing requirements, yet more popular with the studios because full resolution playback of copies (not original discs in compliant players) is harder.

As an open source format with similar lossless encoding size as TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, multi-channel FLAC would be the ideal format for all audio.  Of course this is the antithesis of what the studios want and so it is not generally supported in players.

I think we need to keep in mind that SWDE is a lossy version of the original video, so perhaps we should not be too concerned about lossy soundtracks to accompany it.

It is also important to understand where the audio source originates from:  if there has been any lossy compression or conversion used anywhere in it's history, then using lossless compression for the final version is not going to restore quality that has already been lost:  the best it can do is retain the quality that is there.  However, I understand that a high enough bitrate lossy compression  will sound indistinguishable to most ears from a lossless compression depending on the acoustic properties of the source.

Quite frankly, for stereo soundtracks obtained from laserdisc I doubt anyone would notice a difference between DD 640 and TrueHD.

In terms of authoring a Bluray, I actually think it would be preferable to have the extras on a separate disc:  this relaxes any constraints on the movie itself.  When you do this, you no longer really need menus for the movie itself (nice to have, yes).

Once freed from menus on the movie, it is very easy to convert an mkv and whatever combination of soundtracks one desires into Bluray format using TSmuxer.

For myself, I will be sticking with mkv for the movie anyway, as I find menus too restrictive.  However, I like the idea of a menu driven extras disc.

yoda-sama said:

First off, I'm very intrigued by the possibilities of Hairy_Hen's new process, so I'm completely in support of waiting for his results.  When it comes to DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA almost seems to be the go to standard by most studios, I'm actually rather surprised whenever I see a disc that goes with Dolby TrueHD.  So, whether it has the best support or not (and many of the dirt cheap Blu-ray players only seem to do stereo decoding for DTS-HD MA), DTS-HD MA may be the more 'professional' route to go with.

IMO the studios go with DTS-HD MA because there aren't open source decoders available for it and therefore it is more difficult to playback in full resolution, thus thwarting 1:1 copying to some degree.  The media player manufacturers also frequently prevent bitstreaming of DTS-HD MA thus making full resolution playback of copies more difficult.  The same can not be said of TrueHD.

I think even the cheap Bluray players will bitstream DTS-HD MA or decode to multichannel LPCM via HDMI.  The whole point of HDMI/HDCP was to protect the high resolution from capture and perfect duplication by "pirates" and in that respect it is successful, so there is no point crippling that output.  I'm not sure if the cheap players only use the DTS core via HDMI, but I think it unlikely.

We must remember that lossless encoding says nothing about the quality of the source:  one can losslessly encode a 128kbps AC3 source to TrueHD but it will still sound crap.  Lossless encoding merely retains the existing quality of the source.  Lossy encoding can still be perfectly adequate if the  source was lossily encoded at a lower bitrate somewhere in its history.

Therefore, I think any release should have a lossless encode plus a high bitrate lossy encode of the competing audio format, for the highest quality source, as a minimum, to provide maximum consumer compatibility;  plus all soundtracks offered separately in lossless and lossy (both formats) depending on source quality for consumer selection.  This may mean DTS-HD MA plus DD 640 for the primary soundtrack.

Nearsighted Scrappile said:

All of my standalone equipment is Dolby. Matter of fact, until somewhat recently, I have noticed that it was difficult to locate any equipment that supports DTS. My Sony BD player supports DTS, but I'm not sure how that will translate to my Dolby Digital receiver. I'm not so sure that sticking with ONLY DTS is a good idea.

Only the oldest equipment was Dolby Digital only, then receivers implemented DTS, then basic HDMI (multichannel LPCM), then TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (over HDMI) decoding.  There's nothing wrong with older equipment I might add, just that it is generally more limited in decoding capability.

One way around lack of decoding capability in the receiver is to perform the decoding in the player and output either multichannel analogue (via 3 sets of stereo leads) or multichannel LPCM (via HDMI).  This requires the capability in the player and the ability of the receiver to accept it as input.

I would suggest looking into the capabilities of your existing equipment to better understand what audio formats you can ultimately handle:  it's not just about the receiver.

Your comment raises an interesting question about society in general:  do we implement only for the majority, or do we find a way to satisfy as many minority requirements as possible too?

I vote for releasing an mkv with just the basics what we have now:  we've been down the waiting path before.

Muxing additional tracks into an mkv is not rocket science or brain surgery and it means the mkv is the minimum size it needs to be.  I already removed a number of tracks from the previous mkv because they were not relevant to my needs, yet I had to download them in the first place.

hairy_hen said:

I haven't decided for sure, but at the moment I'm leaning towards encoding them as DTS-HD MA rather than TrueHD, since while Dolby files seem to have greater playback compatibility, they are apparently more complicated to use correctly in Bluray authoring.  But I think this should be investigated more thoroughly before I make a final decision on the matter.

As I understand it, TrueHD is only more complicated because it requires an embedded DD track for legacy system support, since it doesn't use a "core" arrangement like DTS-HD.

However, if you have a TrueHD track, I believe Eac3to.exe will decode the soundtrack and re-encode to DD plus embed it correctly in the file if you specify output.thd+ac3:  it's only a single file.

Anyway, I expect either TrueHD or DTS-HD MA will be equally well supported on Bluray players:  it's mainly mkv versions that often experience problems in media players due to the "generosity" of the studios influencing the manufacturers.