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All I saw were the first two. To hell with them both.
why?
- The “realism”.
- Nolan’s typical pretentiousness.
- Nolan’s typical convoluted storytelling.
Please elaborate.
If you have to ask, you’ll never know.
I find this strange.
All I saw were the first two. To hell with them both.
why?
- The “realism”.
- Nolan’s typical pretentiousness.
- Nolan’s typical convoluted storytelling.
Please elaborate.
All I saw were the first two. To hell with them both.
why?
Not using the Batman for TDK trilogy
So they did one thing right.
?
I’m not a fan of the Nolanverse.
I suppose I could understand that about the 3rd movie, but the first two?
I think whoever is in charge of these movies should be shot.
Cool.
Come on, you know I don’t really mean he should be shot.
From the movie 12 Angry Men
But supposing he really did hear it. This phrase, how many times have all of us used it? Probably thousands. “I could kill you for that, darling.” “Junior, you do that once more and I’m gonna kill you.” “Get in there, Rocky, and kill him!”… See, we say it every day. That doesn’t mean we’re gonna kill anyone.
Not using the Batman for TDK trilogy
So they did one thing right.
?
Another thing about B v S: why were they fighting? They are supposed to be on the same side! Also if I am not mistaken, in B v S, Batman blames Superman for all the destruction that occurred in Man of Steel. There is just one problem with that: it is not Superman’s fault. Zod is responsible for all the destruction.
I think whoever is in charge of these movies should be shot. Not using the Batman for TDK trilogy and instead using Aflack Batman that didn’t have any movie on his own first? Combining SvA with the Doomsday story line, throwing Wonderwoman in there too? Doing the JL movie right after Doomsday, so you have a JL without Superman? Also no Green Lantern in the JL? Yes his movie sucked, but the Green Lantern’s absence from the JL is glaring. Of course whose fault is it that G L movie sucked? The same people in charge of these movies. The costumes look dumb to boot. The animated DC universe was done much,much better.
According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.
If true, it would seem that the the cop was acting at the beginning of the video doesn’t make sense. But I will still like to see what trained police officer like Ferris would have to say about this.
You’re right, it doesn’t make sense. They were behaving unreasonably, don’t you think?
Maybe. Maybe not. I am not an expert and I don’t have police training, I can’t be certain as to what is and is not reasonable behaviour for cops in this situation. But suspicous of what they were doing.
I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.
You presumed they “got on the scene intending to kill someone”
You presumed they “They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.”
You presumed they “wanted to play with their prey”
I’ve come down off that high, and no longer feel confident in saying those things.
Good.
I think they’re possible, and not too unreasonable to assume; but we can’t know for sure.
Well, I think it too unreasonable to assume such.
If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,
There is every reason to worry. For all we know, Darren Wilson conducted himself properly
Oh, okay, so coming onto the scene already on-edge
Did they? They came on to the scene before the video starts. Do we really know that they came on to the scene on-edge?
and acting in a way that doesn’t make sense,
I don’t know that. Again, I am not an expert and have no training and what doesn’t make sense to me might make sense to those with the knowledge, training and experience of police.
giving demands that get in the way of a hasty arrest, making someone crawl around on the floor;
I will admit I don’t understand why they did that. I would love to ask experts what they think of the tactics these cops employed.
none of that amounts to poor conduct. What is poor conduct, then?
It may well be poor conduct. But poor conduct is different than 2nd degree murder.
These cops obviously aren’t experts on this situation either because they killed a surrendering man.
Maybe. Maybe not. But when said about experts and talking to cops, I not refering to the cops involved in this incident.
That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.
And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?
As I said. I don’t agree with that part and don’t understand they just didn’t order the guy to lay flat and search him and then arrest him in that position. But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.
This doubt is unreasonable.
your opinion.
What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?
Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.
You realize that if the suspect does something that requires the officer to fire while the other officer is in position to make the arrest, he be firing right in the direction of the officer making the arrest, right?
Cop 1 goes around the left, Bodycam Cop keeps his aim on Shaver. It would be a little risky, though, you’re right. I think it would’ve been safest to move him towards the end of the hallway, which looks much more open and conducive to a safe arrest.
perhaps. But I am not an expert on these situations. Are you?
- the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.
Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?
It not a matter of not having a high enough IQ, it is a matter of not having the training and knowledge that comes with. Of course you if you say down with cops
I’m not saying “down with cops,”
oops sorry about. I made several typos in that part of the post. I did not mean “you say down with cops” Please reread that part of the post. I meant to say “if you sit down with the cops”
I respect cops for the most part; but I also think they should be held to a higher standard, and that their job is too important not to be scrutinized.
agree.
Tell me, how you like someone to judge how well you do your job, with having your training and without knowing the ins and outs of your job?
My job isn’t nearly as important or potentially dangerous. Allowing bad cops to go unchecked creates a dangerous precedent.
I don’t want to allow bad cops to go unchecked.
- watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.
The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest.
Again, I am not sure why they were going through with all that instead of ordering the guy to lay flat and search him and arrest him. Again knowing what happened before the camera started rolling would help and would speaking to cops and finding out about the proper tactics in these situations.
According to the article, Shaver immediately exited the room and complied with their demands.
If true, it would seem that the the cop was acting at the beginning of the video doesn’t make sense. But I will still like to see what trained police officer like Ferris would have to say about this.
EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.
Well maybe cops are tired of being presumed guilty all time by people with no training and no real knowledge of police work.
I’m not presuming anything, I’m coming to a conclusion based on the evidence.
You presumed they “got on the scene intending to kill someone”
You presumed they “They shouted confusing demands at him, hoping for him to slip up; as if to justify their cold-blooded murder.”
You presumed they “wanted to play with their prey”
I agree they shouldn’t a " ‘they felt threaten’ get-out-of-jail-free card", but maybe they also shouldn’t have to live in fear that their lives will be ruined just be cause they had to act to defend their lives and/or that of their partner.
If they conduct themselves properly, there’s no reason to worry. This was not conducted properly,
There is every reason to worry. For all we know, Darren Wilson conducted himself properly (physical evidence was uncertain as to what occurred and the witnesses contradicted each other). He is out of a job and his reputation is in ruins.
Maybe with everyone out to get the cops, assuming they are just a bunch bigots out to get black people,
You’re ascribing views to me that I don’t hold.
You no, but there are those that do hold that view.
The court of public opinion is very different than the court of law.
Yes, I know. It is a very good thing a court of law is different of the court of public opinion.
You’re innocent until proven guilty, that has little to do with being given benefits of the doubt.
You forgot a very important part: you’re innocent until proven guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. THAT definitely has something to do with being given the benefit of the doubt.
It just means he’s innocent in the eyes of the law until convicted, it doesn’t mean we can’t speak harshly based on what looks like clear evidence.
You’re 100% free to speak. But one of things we’ve been arguing about whether he should have been found guilty of second degree murder. When we are talking about whether the cop should be convicted in a court of law, we must by definition, give him the benefit of the doubt.
When you’re in a difficult job involving life or death decisions, there should be the utmost of accountability.
There should be, but also when you’re the defendant, you get the benefit of the doubt.
But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.
See, this is the mental gymnastics Jeebus is talking about. You’ll always bend over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt to the officers. Why aren’t you giving the same benefit of the doubt to the ones being shot here? It’s not helpful.
The officer is the one that stands accused, the benefit of the doubt goes to the defendant. Also it is true, I am not cop, I don’t have that kind of training, and there are things they do that might look wrong the untrained eye, but make sense then you’ve had the training. Finally, in today’s world there seem to be plenty that want to give the benefit of the doubt to the suspect and not to the cop. Maybe I feel like balancing things out a little.
That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think.
And the sick Simon Says game was just part of the arrest, right?
As I said. I don’t agree with that part and don’t understand they just didn’t order the guy to lay flat and search him and then arrest him in that position. But I am not a cop, perhaps there is a good reason for not doing that I don’t know about.
What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot?
Yes. They’re taught that one officer to is supposed to aim at the suspect and provide cover while the other officer moves up to make the arrest.
You realize that if the suspect does something that requires the officer to fire while the other officer is in position to make the arrest, he be firing right in the direction of the officer making the arrest, right?
- the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.
Oh, so it is just part of the arrest, how silly of me to think that I could possibly understand. I just don’t have a high enough IQ to understand these incredibly complex 16th dimension tactics. Bullshit. Do we really have to know the ins and outs of police work to recognize that this was wrong?
It is not a matter of not having a high enough IQ, it is a matter of not having the training and knowledge that comes with. Of course if you sit down with cops and talked with them and ask them questions and trained with them, you would be capable of understanding. But you haven’t done that, have you? Therefore there are things that they know that you don’t. For example until I talked with Ferris and saw that video that I linked to and other things, I didn’t understand why the tazer couldn’t/shouldn’t be used in many situations. Tell me, how would you like someone to judge how well you do your job, without having your training and without knowing the ins and outs of your job?
- watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.
The cops put themselves in that situation by fucking around with the suspect and not getting on with the arrest.
Again, I am not sure why they were going through with all that instead of ordering the guy to lay flat and search him and arrest him. Again knowing what happened before the camera started rolling would help and so would speaking to cops and finding out about the proper tactics in these situations.
Either the officers are beyond stupid, or they deliberately wanted to prolong the engagement and raise the chances of the suspect fucking up. There is no third option. And I won’t accept that “they feared for their lives” crap, these were two trained officers with assault rifles up against a man crawling on the floor crying and begging not to be shot.
He may have been crying, but I didn’t hear him beg not to be shot. He wasn’t crawling on the floor at the time he was shot, He reached behind his back and quickly brought it out again (against what he was ordered to do) like he was going for a gun.
EDIT: Sorry if this came across as too angry, but I really am tired of the gymnastics people will do to defend some cops. And I’m doubly tired of the “they felt threatened” get-out-of-jail-free card.
Well maybe cops are tired of being presumed guilty all time by people with no training and no real knowledge of police work. I agree they shouldn’t get a “‘they felt threaten’ get-out-of-jail-free card”, but maybe they also shouldn’t have to live in fear that their lives will be ruined just be cause they had to act to defend their lives and/or that of their partner. Maybe with everyone out to get the cops, assuming they are just a bunch bigots out to get black people, someone ought to be doing a little gymnastics to defend them.
Cops are supposed to approach things calmly and rationally, even if the situation is intense.
True, but they are still humans, not robots.
Also, the guy was down and surrendering.
not when he putting his hand behind his back like he was going for a gun
They didn’t need to shoot him. Like I said, even if he did think that the guy was pulling a gun, that just means that the officer is criminally negligent and should be tried and hopefully imprisoned for manslaughter.
Wait, I don’t understand. The cop is criminally negligent just because he thought the guy was pulling a gun?? That doesn’t seem to make sense.
I agree, Leo was definitely one of the goods and I hope he comes back soon.
Mark’s Down On Your Syntax said:
It was this post, Warb.
I’ve seen posts a lot more worrying than that.
remind me, when/where did he make his last post. I have gone back in this thread several pages and didn’t see it.
^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.
anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.
I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.
Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.
I didn’t say anything about revoking their rights. I think that it should be a more severe crime to murder someone while on duty as a police officer than otherwise. Even if the crime itself isn’t handled differently, it’s still more fucked up when cops do this since they’re in positions of trust and authority. It’s like how it is slightly more twisted when a parent abuses their own child than it is when just any evil adult abuses a child. They’re perverting the way things are supposed to be.
You make a good point.
They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.
No. They should be held to a higher standard.
Why are you responding to yourself?
You quoted it like it was something you said.
oops! I have now corrected that.
No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?
I don’t care if the cop thought he was reaching for a gun.
With that unreasonable statement, I see no reason to discuss this further.
If he saw this guy as being that dangerous then he shouldn’t have given him so much time to reach for a gun. Rather than harassing him, he should’ve arrested him right away. At best it’s criminal incompetence and manslaughter.
That is what they were trying to do, arrest him, I think. I don’t know exactly how things got to the point there were at the beginning of the video. But they clearly thought he could be armed and probably thought it was too dangerous to just approach him and arrest him. I am not in agreement with how they proceeded, I do not know why they couldn’t have ordered the guy to lay flat and search him that way and then arrest him.
EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”
You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.
I probably would, but I would also prefer that my cop family member opt for a taser or stun-gun in a situation where he’s got an apparently unarmed suspect held at gunpoint.
His explanation doesn’t apply here. The suspect wasn’t doing anything when he was murdered so the fear that a taser would have been ineffective isn’t important. They could have jumped on him and had time.
Actually he was doing somthing, he was reaching behind his back and for all they knew, he had a gun.
The cop shouldn’t have let it get to that point.
What should they have done? approach a suspect that could have been armed and try to arrest him and risk getting shot? I am not expert and I have no training so I don’t know what exact steps should be taken in arresting a suspect in situation and also again we don’t know the events that occurred before the video began.
And given the context of that situation, there’s reason to make that conclusion, just as Jeebus explained. I don’t get why cops have to be given such extreme benefits of the doubt.
it is how our justice system works: the defendant gets the benefit of the doubt.
the average untrained citizen does not understand everything about police work. Sometimes they may do something that does not make sense to the untrained person but makes perfect sense to the trained person.
watching a video again and again and again and perhaps in slow motion and being able to think all day about what the cop should have done while being safe and calm is not the same as the cop himself watching events fold out in real time having make decisions in split seconds with adrenaline pumping and heart beating and knowing if he makes a mistake he could get shot or another cop could get shot and having only one chance to get it right. Remember when that guy put his hand behind his back, the cop couldn’t just stop the video like we can and ponder what he should do before he hits play again.
TLJ spoilers are in the wild now, and some (extremely mild so far, but still) are starting to creep into general discussions here and elsewhere, so I’m cutting myself of from the Internet until I see the movie Thursday night.
I’ll be back with a review of TLJ. Don’t have too much fun while I’m gone!
If spoilers have crept into discussions here, the mods should be informed, as that is a no no. Be back soon, ChainsawAsh.
^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.
anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.
I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.
Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.
I didn’t say anything about revoking their rights. I think that it should be a more severe crime to murder someone while on duty as a police officer than otherwise. Even if the crime itself isn’t handled differently, it’s still more fucked up when cops do this since they’re in positions of trust and authority. It’s like how it is slightly more twisted when a parent abuses their own child than it is when just any evil adult abuses a child. They’re perverting the way things are supposed to be.
You make a good point.
They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.
No. They should be held to a higher standard.
Why are you responding to yourself?
No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?
I don’t care if the cop thought he was reaching for a gun.
With that unreasonable statement, I see no reason to discuss this further.
EDIT: I know most of them won’t do that, but that’s the mindset amongst many people. “Oh, he was unarmed, but it looked like he could’ve been reaching for a gun. Better safe than sorry.”
You make a good point, but consider this: what if the cop in question were a family member of yours? You might then prefer the “better safe than sorry” approach.
I probably would, but I would also prefer that my cop family member opt for a taser or stun-gun in a situation where he’s got an apparently unarmed suspect held at gunpoint.
His explanation doesn’t apply here. The suspect wasn’t doing anything when he was murdered so the fear that a taser would have been ineffective isn’t important. They could have jumped on him and had time.
Actually he was doing somthing, he was reaching behind his back and for all they knew, he had a gun.
ditto on both counts.
^ this. If anyone other than a cop did this, we’d be calling for the death penalty.
anyone else and we’d be wondering why they approached this guy instead of leaving it for the cops.
I think that when cops do things like this, the crime should be treated as more severe given the fact that they are police.
Sorry that is not the way our justice system works. Cops have the same rights as anyone else.
They shouldn’t be cut any slack at all for this shit.
No slack? what about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you really honestly know beyond a reasonable doubt that the cop didn’t think the guy was reaching for a gun?
