Warbler

TV’s Frink said:

From the article…

Many who do not file tax returns still have taxes deducted from their pay checks. Out of that $11.64 billion total, undocumented immigrants pay $6.9 billion in sales and excise taxes, $3.6 billion in property taxes and about $1.1 billion in personal income taxes. ITEP estimated that if America’s 11 million undocumented immigrants were granted citizenship allowing them to work legally, current state and tax contributions would be boosted by over $2.1 billion a year.

How do they get taxes deducted from illegal pay checks? How do fill out tax withholdings forms without a social security number? Also aren’t a lot paychecks to illegal immigrants done under the table, via cash?

I have no problem believing state and tax contriibutions would be boosted by a lot if they were legalized.

Well, I guess I stand corrected, but I don’t understand how someone here illegally, without a social security number, on some company’s payroll illegally, would be able to pay taxes.

deleted.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

The whole immigration debate is over-simplified. It’s so easy to lay it all on the undocumented worker - he/she broke the law.

I wasn’t laying it all on the illegal immigrant. I am just saying they played a part in this mess. They crossed the border knowing it was against the law. They had children here knowing that any day they could be separated from them and some of them had children in a deliberate attempt to prevent deportation.

But the U.S. is totally complicit. There are enormous financial incentives for them to come, and for big agribusiness to hire them, and to maintain this as the status quo.

maybe somewhat, but it is not like they forced people to cross the border at gun point.

Heck, it’s our nation’s breadbasket – and what politician is willing to incur the political fallout of rising food prices and angry big growers, by fixing a broken immigration system and stemming the steady stream of cheap labor that provides so much low-cost skilled farm labor?

I wish someone would have the guts to fix the immigration system. If we think think the laws are bad or unfair to those wishing to come here, change them.

People don’t realize how skilled these migrant workers are, and how much they get done for such low pay.

To me, how skilled they are is irrelevant. I don’t care whether they pick grapes or are computer engineers. What about the fact that they take jobs away from people that are here legally?

They don’t just pick. They do the pruning, and care for the orchards. And just try picking grapes - you’ll be lucky to last one day (I know this first hand).

a lot of that depends how fit you are and how healthy you are. Knowing my condition I am sure I wouldn’t last an hour.

I hate seeing these struggling people used as political fodder. The politicians huff and puff, and act all big deporting some mother from the midwest, all to cheering followers who’ve been convinced they are the cause of all of our nation’s ills. All while doing nothing of substance.

That is not what I want. I don’t want people to be used as political fodder and I don’t cheer any deportation that would separate families. As for our nations ills, they do play a part. They are not the sole cause or maybe even one of the bigger causes, but they do play a part. They do not pay taxes, yet cost us in various government services, they take jobs away from people who are here legally.

Why else do every one of our presidents end up granting amnesty to thousands of undocumented workers? It’s a sick game and the most unfortunate are the pawns, IMHO.

Yes, it is sad and unfortunate.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see any point in arguing this with you any further.

I’m sorry. I did not mean to upset you or offend you.

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see any point in arguing this with you any further.

I’m sorry. I did not mean to upset you or offend you.

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on the nature of the rejection and how “persistent” the asker is.

Just because there’s no direct physical or psychological harm doesn’t make it okay though. Harassment doesn’t require those things. Consistent unwanted advances would qualify.

Then I guess Han and even Lando harassed Leia, I guess Chachi harassed Joanie on Happy Days. I guess this is harassment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N9C2JS9mWc

Handman said:

Whatever happened to just asking people to go on a date?

if only it were that easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0paM8iDDus

DominicCobb said:

Immigration laws are there for a reason, yes, and I agree with the reason. But breaking them is not so heinous a crime as murder or rape, or even assault or theft.

I never it was as heinous as murder or rape, just illegal.

Saying it’s their fault for being stigmatized is just blaming the victim.

Victims? Did sometime point a gun at them and force them to cross the border illegally? Did they not know it was illegal to cross the border before they did it?

These people have lived a tough life. Do you think it was easy for them to leave their country and come here?

I am sure it was a tough life. But I do think was easier for them to leave their country than it was for all the people that did it legally.

Just because they broke the law doesn’t mean we should treat them like criminals.

um, that is exactly how we treat people that broke the law . . . We treat them like they broke the broke the law . . that is technically what a criminal is . . . someone who breaks the law.

I would say that yes you are falling into a trap of rigidity of thought and making blanket judgements.

if that were the case I wouldn’t be open to not deporting them, and I am open to that. I think you are falling in trap of doing just the opposite: ignoring facts and logic.

I break the law nearly every day by jaywalking but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be allowed to cross the street.

but if a cop sees you do it and does whatever the law says should be done in a such a case, are really a victim?

And so why deportation can be such an overly harsh punishment.

again, I am open to alternatives.

When I say these people are citizens of the land they call home, I mean just because they don’t have papers doesn’t mean they don’t live here.

of course they live here . . . illegally. They are not citizens. They are not legal immigrants. They do not have visas.

That woman who was deported has lived in America longer than I have. But she wasn’t as fortunate as I.

again, there is no law that says if you are able to evade deportation long enough, you are granted legal status. Sorry it doesn’t work like that, no matte how much you want it. If you don’t like our laws, by all means fight to have them changed.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I’m sure glad Trump is deporting all the violent criminals like this one, who put everyone’s life at risk.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/09/for-decades-immigration-authorities-gave-this-mother-a-pass-wednesday-when-she-checked-in-with-them-they-seized-her/?utm_term=.f82e59eeeeff

You know, it is not that I don’t want to show mercy and understanding and concern especially for her kids, but she was technically in the country illegally, yes? I don’t know what should be done in cases like this, I don’t want her split up from her kids. But I don’t think the fact that she was here illegally should just be forgotten. I think this is part of problem we have we when discuss this with the more conservative minded. It is like we want to just forget that she technically broke the law when she came into this country. Yes, she was not putting anyone life at risk, and she was peaceful. That should be fairly considered. I just don’t think the bit about her technically being here illegally should be forgotten though. (This should not be read to mean I think she should have been deported. I don’t know what should be done with cases like her’s and many others)

The solution is simple: a path to citizenship.

Perhaps. I am certainly open to that.

Deportation is just an absolute cruelty, there’s no other way around it.

It is really? When she is here illegally and the law says it is perfectly legal to deport here?

It is not an absolute cruelty in every case. But in this, and many others, it is. If you don’t think deporting a loving mother from her children is cruel, I don’t know how to explain it.

You must have missed where I agreed with Frink that it was cruel. I don’t not want to split a mother from her children.

The issue is (as always with everything) people make blanket statements and judgements with no regard for all the nuanced differences.

I am trying my best not to do that. Like I said, I don’t want her deported. I just don’t want her part in creating this situation to be forgotten/glossed over.

Deportation might work for a real criminal, but if your only crime is seeking a better life for yourself, I think we need to reconsider if tearing apart a family for that is really the best solution.

How she got in shouldn’t matter -

I disagree. I think it does matter that she came here illegally.

In the scheme of things it really shouldn’t. She sought the American dream of a greater life. She did it outside the parameters of the law,

She broke the law. btw, what about all the people who seek the American dream but are doing it the hard way, the legal way? What do we say to them? “Stop filling out paperwork, cutting red tape, waiting and waiting, etc . . . ! Don’t worry about trying to become a citizen or a legal immigrant, The hell with trying to get a visa! That sh** doesn’t matter! Just walk across the border!”?

but is that really so terrible a crime to complete dismiss her simple because of the current laws? Our laws are not infallible, and some are far worse than others, and just because you break them doesn’t make you a terrible person undeserving of a chance.

I didn’t say it makes her a terrible person or undeserving of a change. Yes, are laws are not perfect, but nonetheless we a society ruled by law. This is not “lets do whatever we want” Laws are there for a reason. If we think some law is bad or too strict or something like that, the thing to do is to change the law, not just ignore it.

the laws here that don’t have statutes of limitations are heinous crimes and there isn’t anything heinous about what she did.

This isn’t about a statute of limitations. Deportation is not that same as arresting someone and charging them with a crime. Just because someone that illegally crossed the border, somehow managed to evade deportation for certain amount of time does not change that person’s status from being here illegally to being here legally. It doesn’t make said person a legal immigrant, it doesn’t make them a citizen, you don’t get visa just for evading deportation for a certain amount of time. Let me put it another way: lets say someone steals something from your house. You might be able to argue that after a certain period of time, that person should be charged for the theft. But should that mean that what the person stole now legally belongs to him/her?

I am aware that is not as it is. I mean to say that is not as it should be. The current mentality is that every day an “alien” spends in this country, they are breaking the law. But I tend to see their infraction as more of a single occurrence.

That maybe how you see but that is not the way the law sees it if I am not mistaken. If a person crosses into the country illegally, just on what grounds do you change that status to legal? They are not citizens nor legal immigrants and they don’t have visas.

Your analogy to theft is exactly the issue when it comes to the perception of these people. They are not stealing our country from us by being here, despite what many think.

I didn’t mean they were stealing the country. Maybe you missed the point of my analogy.

Their coming here is not an invasion. Just because they don’t have citizenship under the letter of the law of our constructed nation does not prevent them from being citizens of the land they now call home.

um, coming here illegally and evading deportation for certain amount time does not automatically make them citizens.

Our nation is built on immigrants. People say that all the time but they rarely stop to think of what it means. Yes, all those who immigrated to Ellis Island did it ‘legally.’ But for over a hundred years people we’re immigrating to America before there even were these United States. I have ancestors who came here in the 17th century. Their journey was a long one and a hard one. But so are the journeys of Mexican immigrants now. And just like them, my ancestors didn’t come here ‘legally’ because that didn’t mean anything at the time -

but it mean something now because we are nation. A nation a laws.

and that’s not because it was unclaimed land because there were people living here.

Yes, but what happened pre-1776 doesn’t change what the law is today. I will agree when people first started coming here from Europe we should have respected the rights and wishes of the Native Americans more. The fact that we didn’t, doesn’t negate the laws we in regards to immigration or our right to enforce them.

My point is, we are a country that has always accepted everyone that wanted to live here - that is what is most important, not their means of getting here. That’s not to say we should completely ignore it if they did it ‘illegally,’ but we should be willing to forgive them for their methods and not stigmatize them for it. Rather we should be embracing them, as this land has always done.

They came here illegally and are here illegally and they did this of their own accord. Yes we accepted everyone that wanted to life here, when they went about it the legal way. I don’t recall America having a history of ignoring its own immigration laws. I am all for being merciful and forgiving and finding ways to avoid deportation. But as for stigmatizing, they should have thought of that before breaking the law. Our immigration laws exist for a reason.

If you don’t like our immigration policies, fight to change them. I might even side with you. But don’t just ignore them, they were made for a reason.

I want to be merciful and forgiving, but does that mean we should just open the borders, screw our immigration laws and make it a free for all?

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

Even when that’s the case, it’s not the kids’ fault and it’s shitty to take their parents away if the parents did nothing illegal beyond coming to this country.

It’s such a grey area. I’m really not sure where I come down on the topic myself. It’s a terrible thing, but illegal is illegal… but at the same time, the kids shouldn’t lose their parents… but you can’t deport the kids… but you can’t just be letting people come in illegally and have kids and stay and take precedent over those people who are working their way through legal channels because that encourages it…

It’s a really complex topic that there’s really no right answer for, to be honest. Personally, what I think is that we need to focus on is working on making our immigration system more expedient, and more importantly, helping to elevate Mexico into a country that people don’t feel the need to flee), for a start.

I agree that it’s complicated in many ways, but not for this particular point…I just don’t believe it’s right to separate mother or father and children if that’s the only crime they’ve committed, full stop.

I fully agree that deportation and separation would cause more problems than it would “solve” but also there can’t be no consequences in my mind, not deportation, but something to make it unattractive to future immigrants. Call it cruel, but laws is laws.

agreed. I like my idea of a hefty fine.

And then what? Pay a fine every time she checks in?

not exactly no. Like I said I don’t have the answers.

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

^With all due respect to you warbler … It does not matter how many times you say it, those who’ve already made up their minds, will never acknowledge your position. I wish I could give you a reason why but it is an answer I simply do not have.

Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.

What does this have to do with anything?

I didn’t ask you to kiss the ring to prove your loyalty. I am not even the slightest bit concerned with your forum “loyalties”. You’ve stated your position at least 3 times in 3 different ways and you’ve gotten literally the same response. That doesn’t make you think that it’s time to move on?

yeesh

I stated this:

“Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.” just to make it clear to the others that I didn’t agree with you. I didn’t do it to offend/bother/annoy you.

Why would you care what anyone else thinks about what opinions you do or don’t agree with?

Because I do. I just didn’t want others to think I shared your opinion. It is that simple.

You don’t care any other time?

I don’t?

Your claim that you didn’t do it to offend/bother/annoy me contradicts why you said you did do it.

huh?

The fact that you felt you had to say it to prove to others you didn’t agree with me conerns me more and saddens me to think that it now comes down to such things on this forum.

I give up. This will be the last time I talk to you about this. I honestly don’t think I have done anything wrong or broken any rules in this case. Complain to Jay if you like.

And what would I say to Jay? Warbler feels he has to publicly let everyone else on the forum know he doesn’t agree with me? Do you realize how obtuse that is? LOL

I said nothing about you breaking any rules either. Wow, you really are something warbler, sad situation for sure.

*sigh*

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

^With all due respect to you warbler … It does not matter how many times you say it, those who’ve already made up their minds, will never acknowledge your position. I wish I could give you a reason why but it is an answer I simply do not have.

Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.

What does this have to do with anything?

I didn’t ask you to kiss the ring to prove your loyalty. I am not even the slightest bit concerned with your forum “loyalties”. You’ve stated your position at least 3 times in 3 different ways and you’ve gotten literally the same response. That doesn’t make you think that it’s time to move on?

yeesh

I stated this:

“Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.” just to make it clear to the others that I didn’t agree with you. I didn’t do it to offend/bother/annoy you.

Why would you care what anyone else thinks about what opinions you do or don’t agree with?

Because I do. I just didn’t want others to think I shared your opinion. It is that simple.

You don’t care any other time?

I don’t?

Your claim that you didn’t do it to offend/bother/annoy me contradicts why you said you did do it.

huh?

The fact that you felt you had to say it to prove to others you didn’t agree with me conerns me more and saddens me to think that it now comes down to such things on this forum.

I give up. This will be the last time I talk to you about this. I honestly don’t think I have done anything wrong or broken any rules in this case. Complain to Jay if you like.

Have you tried cough drop?

Have you tried cough medicine?

I remember I had prescription medication that irritated my throat and made me cough. Could it be something like that?

today it was cold and raining where I am. 😦

Handman said:

I’m going to come right out and say I don’t understand texting and other digital means of communication being worthwhile if you don’t do anything with them. They’re distractions from reality, so not much thought could possibly be put into them unless they’re really meaningful conversations. Being constantly accessible isn’t always a good thing, I’ve pretty much left social media entirely because I don’t like how everyone’s company/insight is taken for granted.

This belongs in the bitching thread, whoops.

Well here is one benefit, if you are the praying kind. When my father had his bad fall that eventually ended with him passing away, I had put on the church’s facebook page a request to pray for him about a half hour after the fall. Within 15 minutes, I had dozens of members of my church praying for him.

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

Even when that’s the case, it’s not the kids’ fault and it’s shitty to take their parents away if the parents did nothing illegal beyond coming to this country.

It’s such a grey area. I’m really not sure where I come down on the topic myself. It’s a terrible thing, but illegal is illegal… but at the same time, the kids shouldn’t lose their parents… but you can’t deport the kids… but you can’t just be letting people come in illegally and have kids and stay and take precedent over those people who are working their way through legal channels because that encourages it…

It’s a really complex topic that there’s really no right answer for, to be honest. Personally, what I think is that we need to focus on is working on making our immigration system more expedient, and more importantly, helping to elevate Mexico into a country that people don’t feel the need to flee), for a start.

I agree that it’s complicated in many ways, but not for this particular point…I just don’t believe it’s right to separate mother or father and children if that’s the only crime they’ve committed, full stop.

I fully agree that deportation and separation would cause more problems than it would “solve” but also there can’t be no consequences in my mind, not deportation, but something to make it unattractive to future immigrants. Call it cruel, but laws is laws.

agreed. I like my idea of a hefty fine.

Jetrell Fo said:

Warbler said:

Jetrell Fo said:

^With all due respect to you warbler … It does not matter how many times you say it, those who’ve already made up their minds, will never acknowledge your position. I wish I could give you a reason why but it is an answer I simply do not have.

Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.

What does this have to do with anything?

I didn’t ask you to kiss the ring to prove your loyalty. I am not even the slightest bit concerned with your forum “loyalties”. You’ve stated your position at least 3 times in 3 different ways and you’ve gotten literally the same response. That doesn’t make you think that it’s time to move on?

yeesh

I stated this:

“Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.” just to make it clear to the others that I didn’t agree with you. I didn’t do it to offend/bother/annoy you.

As for moving on, I do so when I feel the discussion is at and end and the others no longer wish to talk about.

yeesh indeed.

Jetrell Fo said:

^With all due respect to you warbler … It does not matter how many times you say it, those who’ve already made up their minds, will never acknowledge your position. I wish I could give you a reason why but it is an answer I simply do not have.

Just to make it clear to everyone, this is not an opinion that I share.

TV’s Frink said:

Even when that’s the case, it’s not the kids’ fault and it’s shitty to take their parents away if the parents did nothing illegal beyond coming to this country.

I agree, it is not kids fault and it is shitty. But when it is the case(that people here illegally have kids for the purpose of avoiding deportation) should we just let people get away with it? Perhaps a hefty fine? I don’t know.

I am not saying I want people deported, I just think the things I mentioned shouldn’t forgotten/glossed over and I think too much of the time, that is exactly what we do. It pisses off the more conservative minded and perhaps plays a part in them not wanting to be all that merciful.

Another thing that I think shouldn’t be forgotten is that sometime people that are here illegally, decide have kids for the purpose of trying to prevent deportation. I am not saying it is the case with this woman, but it does occur.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Deportation is just an absolute cruelty, there’s no other way around it.

It is really? When she is here illegally and the law says it is perfectly legal to deport here?

You don’t think separating her from her children is cruel?

Yes, I agree it is. When he said it was an absolute cruelty, I thought he meant in general, not this specific case. Of course, I don’t this it should be forgotten, that she had kids here knowing she was here illegally and knowing that she could be deported at any time and separated from them. Again I want to merciful and understand and don’t necessarily want to deport her and I don’t want to separate her from her kids. I just don’t think her part in creating this situation should be forgotten.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I’m sure glad Trump is deporting all the violent criminals like this one, who put everyone’s life at risk.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/09/for-decades-immigration-authorities-gave-this-mother-a-pass-wednesday-when-she-checked-in-with-them-they-seized-her/?utm_term=.f82e59eeeeff

You know, it is not that I don’t want to show mercy and understanding and concern especially for her kids, but she was technically in the country illegally, yes? I don’t know what should be done in cases like this, I don’t want her split up from her kids. But I don’t think the fact that she was here illegally should just be forgotten. I think this is part of problem we have we when discuss this with the more conservative minded. It is like we want to just forget that she technically broke the law when she came into this country. Yes, she was not putting anyone life at risk, and she was peaceful. That should be fairly considered. I just don’t think the bit about her technically being here illegally should be forgotten though. (This should not be read to mean I think she should have been deported. I don’t know what should be done with cases like her’s and many others)

The solution is simple: a path to citizenship.

Perhaps. I am certainly open to that.

Deportation is just an absolute cruelty, there’s no other way around it.

It is really? When she is here illegally and the law says it is perfectly legal to deport here?

How she got in shouldn’t matter -

I disagree. I think it does matter that she came here illegally.

the laws here that don’t have statutes of limitations are heinous crimes and there isn’t anything heinous about what she did.

This isn’t about a statute of limitations. Deportation is not that same as arresting someone and charging them with a crime. Just because someone that illegally crossed the border, somehow managed to evade deportation for certain amount of time does not change that person’s status from being here illegally to being here legally. It doesn’t make said person a legal immigrant, it doesn’t make them a citizen, you don’t get visa just for evading deportation for a certain amount of time. Let me put it another way: lets say someone steals something from your house. You might be able to argue that after a certain period of time, that person should be charged for the theft. But should that mean that what the person stole now legally belongs to him/her?

TV’s Frink said:

I’m sure glad Trump is deporting all the violent criminals like this one, who put everyone’s life at risk.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/09/for-decades-immigration-authorities-gave-this-mother-a-pass-wednesday-when-she-checked-in-with-them-they-seized-her/?utm_term=.f82e59eeeeff

You know, it is not that I don’t want to show mercy and understanding and concern especially for her kids, but she was technically in the country illegally, yes? I don’t know what should be done in cases like this, I don’t want her split up from her kids. But I don’t think the fact that she was here illegally should just be forgotten. I think this is part of problem we have we when discuss this with the more conservative minded. It is like we want to just forget that she technically broke the law when she came into this country. Yes, she was not putting anyone life at risk, and she was peaceful. That should be fairly considered. I just don’t think the bit about her technically being here illegally should be forgotten though. (This should not be read to mean I think she should have been deported. I don’t know what should be done with cases like her’s and many others)

Logical fallacies are not opinion. There is a defect in logic or there isn’t.