Warbler

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

But I’m not reading anything.

Then get out of the thread.

In case you missed it, I said I was sorry.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Since it’s too late to change the name on the ballot, Republicans may attempt some sort of “refuse to seat him/he resigns/appoint new Senator” gambit, which basically amounts to “you’re just voting for the Republican ticket, not this particular Republican. Trust us to sort out the details.”

mayhaps.

My mistake. This is the tactic they’re taking.

“Take the Bible. Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance. Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist,” Ziegler said choosing his words carefully before invoking Christ. “Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Actual quote from the Alabama State Auditor, defending Roy Moore. Not denying it, just saying preying on teenagers is Biblically justified.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

I don’t know that he was saying never pray publicly, just don’t do it if you are only doing to be seen doing it.

Even so, that is what they were doing; or if it was not, it is unclear that it was not. Which makes it a bad idea either way and means it still is relevant.

It is unclear to YOU. It is not unclear to person doing the public praying or to God. If I pray publicly and my motivation is unclear to You, I am still going to pray. I know my real motivation and so does God.

Let me be clear about “publicly.” There is a difference between you praying and being in a place where people see you do it, and doing it with the intent or in the knowledge of people watching or else calling other people to do it in a non-worship setting.

Calling fellow believers to pray in a setting among them is different from calling anyone and everyone via social media or television broadcast.

Sorry but asking for prayer via social media or television broadcast doesn’t seem wrong to me(unless done disingenuously).

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

But again, I criticize the insincerity; the disingenuousness. That they likely use a call to prayer to gain popularity with people of faith than actually being genuine in their own faith.

Then criticize them for being disingenuous, not the prayer itself.

That’s exactly what people were doing here.

That doesn’t sound like what Wheaton said.

I specifically said “here”. I don’t understand how you missed that.

you’re right. I missed what you said. sorry.

Tyrphanax said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

With all due respect to people’s religions, it irks me when politicians tell me that I need to pray. I’m not religious, and we are supposedly in a country that values separation of church and state. Yet every time some catastrophe happens, the first thing politicians tell us is that we need to pray. Not “pray if you’re religious”, but “we need to pray”. While I don’t mind if people want to pray, I don’t appreciate politicians telling me that I need to become religious.

It’s not a big deal, it just irks me. I realize I’m probably in an extreme minority.

Eh, there’s this whole “separation of church and state” thing that literally everyone seems to have utterly forgotten in this country, so you’re not alone there.

No one is forcing anyone to pray.

TV’s Frink said:

http://wilwheaton.net/2017/11/point-of-clarification/

“I am so sick and angry that this keeps happening. America is the only first world country where we do nothing while our fellow humans are slaughtered by entirely preventable gun violence every day.

“People like Paul Ryan can write and pass laws that can address this epidemic of gun violence, which should be considered a public health crisis, but instead, Paul Ryan and people like him offer “thoughts and prayers” as a shield for their inaction.

“I heard privately from some close friends who are people of sincere Faith, and they were concerned that my anger at Paul Ryan would be misread as an attack on people of Faith. I want and need to apologize to anyone who felt like I was attacking them, or their faith (unless that person is Paul Ryan). I respect your Faith, even if I do not share it. I respect that prayer brings comfort and strength and guidance for a lot of people, and if you are one of those people, praying for God to bring comfort and strength to the families and friends of the victims and survivors is a deeply meaningful act.

“I am not attacking you or your Faith, and I see that in my anger, I didn’t write my thoughts as clearly as I could have. For that I sincerely apologize to anyone who I offended or hurt. I can’t take it back, but I can tell you that it was never my intention, nor is it my belief.

“I am angry at people like Paul Ryan who are quick to offer their thoughts and prayers after mass murder, but who refuse to do anything to even attempt to slow or stop the epidemic of gun violence that plagues America. He and people like him are hoping that you will give him a pass and let him exploit your Faith so he can continue to shrug his shoulders, take money from the NRA, and do absolutely nothing else.

“So just to be crystal clear: I apologize to those of you who are sincere people of Faith, who felt attacked by me. That was not my intention.”

To the professional atheists out there who are endlessly cruel, condescending, and dismissive toward people of Faith: I am not your ally and I’m not on your team. Don’t claim me as one of your own, because the right wing noise machine misinterpreted what I said (and I will do better in the future, to prevent my words from being misunderstood and misconstrued so easily).

To anyone who believes that my anger at Paul Ryan’s empty words is in any way directed toward the victims of gun violence: Attacking the victims, the survivors, or the victim’s families of any mass shooting, the way Alex Jones does with his false flag lies, is despicable and inexcusable. I want to be very clear: I was not and I am not attacking anyone who was in that church, I am not mocking their Faith. I don’t believe that a reasonable person would believe that I was, but because that lie has taken hold as a narrative, it’s important to me that I restate this, once again: Paul Ryan hides behind empty words about thoughts and prayers, exploiting the real and sincere beliefs held by people of Faith. He and people like him offer words without deeds over and over again, and I’m sick and tired of it. That is what I am attacking, and that is what I am angry about.

Fox News and its allies are working really hard to deflect attention and anger away from the role that unfettered access to weapons of mass murder played in the latest incidence of mass murder in America. Fox News and its allies want you to be angry at something they mislead you into believing I said, so you will take the anger and sorrow and desire for action you feel after a mass shooting, and aim it at me, instead of holding the people in power who could prevent this to account. Fox News, Paul Ryan, and their allies are counting on their ability to fool you into believing their lies, so they can continue to do nothing until the next mass shooting, when they’ll offer thoughts and prayers but no action.

Once again, to people of Faith who find comfort and strength in prayer: I am not mocking or belittling or attacking you or your relationship with God, and if you felt that I was, I hope you will accept this apology.

I will not apologize for being angry at Paul Ryan and people like him who have words but no deeds, and I hope that people of Faith will hold him to account.

Perhaps I misunderstood him then.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Okay, I actually read the article posted that points out Wil was actually criticizing prayer. (I did not previously read it because I have no interest in Wil Wheaton’s personal views.)

But regardless of Wil’s ignorant blathering, it still is not a good idea.

I continue to fail to understand why praying for the victims or asking people to pray for the victims is not a good idea. The thing that isn’t a good idea, is the decision to do nothing else.

It’s because your relationship with God is your relationship. You can fellowship with others in that relationship, and you can come to Him, but it is inappropriate to put yourself in a position where you even accidentally construe yourself as disingenuous.

I am pretty sure there were times when people wrong thought Christ was disingenuous. That didn’t stop Christ from doing what he was doing.

Wil’s reaction is ignorant, but it wouldn’t have happened if such a declaration wasn’t public. Having a relationship with God is a very personal thing. A call to prayer should be equally personal. Just throwing that request out into the wind for everyone to hear is not.

Suffice it to say, it is still possible to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Yeah, but I don’t pray or ask for prayer is the wrong thing, if it is done for the right reason.

Alright, I’m sorry.

chyron8472 said:

But again, language changes over time; and one language doesn’t necessarily have the same vocabulary of meaning for specific words that others do. This is why there are various translations—some of which place more emphasis on specific individual word-for-word translation, while others include the context of the whole sentence, paragraph, or section to glean the original meaning (ie. thought-for-thought)—with a continuum between the two.

Some translations are easier to use for a study focused on specific words or phrases, while others are easier to sit and read.

Instead of my just googling it, I ought to actually ask someone I know IRL about the validity of the claims I’ve heard that KJV isn’t as accurate as newer translations. But even still, while various verses I have memorized have been done so in the NKJV (see Warbler’s mention of “cadence”), in general I find (N)KJV more of a slog to read. If I’m in a bible study and someone is audibly reading from King James, I find myself focusing more on mentally interpreting the vocabulary than pondering the passage itself.

With a version like King James, you have to read the passage and then stop now and then to say “in other words, it means [this]”. As opposed to the Bible straight up speaking for itself as to what it means and not having to retranslate archaic words.

all good reasons to use multiple translations.

chyron8472 said:

Okay, I actually read the article posted that points out Wil was actually criticizing prayer. (I did not previously read it because I have no interest in Wil Wheaton’s personal views.)

But regardless of Wil’s ignorant blathering, it still is not a good idea.

I continue to fail to understand why praying for the victims or asking people to pray for the victims is not a good idea. The thing that isn’t a good idea, is the decision to do nothing else.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

I don’t know that he was saying never pray publicly, just don’t do it if you are only doing to be seen doing it.

Even so, that is what they were doing; or if it was not, it is unclear that it was not. Which makes it a bad idea either way and means it still is relevant.

It is unclear to YOU. It is not unclear to person doing the public praying or to God. If I pray publicly and my motivation is unclear to You, I am still going to pray. I know my real motivation and so does God.

CatBus said:

Since it’s too late to change the name on the ballot, Republicans may attempt some sort of “refuse to seat him/he resigns/appoint new Senator” gambit, which basically amounts to “you’re just voting for the Republican ticket, not this particular Republican. Trust us to sort out the details.”

mayhaps.

doubleofive said:

chyron8472 said:

With a version like King James, you have to read the passage and then stop now and then to say “in other words, it means [this]”. As opposed to the Bible straight up speaking for itself as to what it means and not having to retranslate archaic words.

One of my Bible College professors was really lazy with his correspondence courses. While the entire program was built on the NIV, this correspondence course I took was apparently something he found that used the KJV. A lot of the questions were asking what this archaic word means in this verse, when my NIV just had the modern word for it.

weird.

TV’s Frink said:

But I’m not reading anything.

Then get out of the thread.

dahmage said:

chyron8472 said:

With a version like King James, you have to read the passage and then stop now and then to say “in other words, it means [this]”. As opposed to the Bible straight up speaking for itself as to what it means and not having to retranslate archaic words.

Christianese is a real problem,

excuse me???

and bible translations like the KJV only make it worse. related: how do you pronounce “beloved”

be-loved

I hope that it understandable. It is difficult to tell how something is pronounced without being able to actually speak to you.

CatBus said:

I like to think the recent revelations about Roy Moore will sink his Senate campaign. It’s well-sourced and corroborated with court filings from the time, but it’s already getting called “Fake News” at Breitbart, so who knows what the voters will think? Also, Trump’s racism gave him an impressive margin of victory in Alabama, in spite of the well-documented fact that he was a horrifying human being. Perhaps Moore can still pull this off. Child molesters can still win elections, as long as they’re sufficiently racist child molesters.

yikes indeed. I would hope that and the fact that he is obviously a racist would prevent his election. But I would have thought all of Trumps baggage would have prevent his election and it did not.

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

But again, I criticize the insincerity; the disingenuousness. That they likely use a call to prayer to gain popularity with people of faith than actually being genuine in their own faith.

Then criticize them for being disingenuous, not the prayer itself.

That’s exactly what people were doing here.

That doesn’t sound like what Wheaton said.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

TM2YC said:

There is nothing wrong with our leaders playing the violin… as long they are also providing adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation.

True, but if they don’t provide adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation, criticize them for that, not playing the violin.

But if the city is burning and all they’re doing is playing…

Criticize them for not doing anything about the fact that the city is burning. What else they are doing or is irrelevant to that point.

You’re contorting yourself here to make your point.

Obviously the mere act of playing the fiddle is not what’s reprehensible, it’s that they’re doing it instead of something useful. The thing is, if you were to criticize them, you’d be going out of your way to not say “the city is burning and yet you’re just here playing the fiddle.” But again, just because you say that doesn’t mean that you have a problem with them playing the fiddle by itself. That fact is easily understood.

It depends on how you word the complaint. It seems some are more concerned about the specific activity he is doing while the city burns, instead of being concerned about what he is not doing to put the fire out. Whether he is playing the fiddle or doing absolutely nothing, the problem is the same. The fiddle is the wrong target. The right target is the fact that he is not doing what he is supposed to be doing.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

I agree. Target your criticism towards their insincerity

But I think that’s what they are criticizing.

Doesn’t sound that way, the way Wheaton words it.

One might criticize prayer if one didn’t believe in it, but that’s a different issue than what this is.

If they don’t believe in prayer, then they should try to be respectful of those that believe differently than you.

The Bible itself says don’t be public about it. Them calling for prayer is being public about it. Why can’t you make the connection?

I don’t know that he was saying never pray publicly, just don’t do it if you are only doing to be seen doing it.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

They do not care about fixing the problems with gun violence. They just want to use tragedy to look sympathetic and sway minds to thinking them worthy of staying in office.

A valid thing to criticize them for.

Yes, and their calling for prayer is part of that. It’s not prayer itself that’s the issue.

Some people don’t word their complaints carefully enough to make that clear.

It’s who is calling for it and that it’s called for publicly for all to witness.

So the same with moments of silence.

Well I still think walking out on one is wrong.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

TM2YC said:

There is nothing wrong with our leaders playing the violin… as long they are also providing adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation.

True, but if they don’t provide adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation, criticize them for that, not playing the violin.

But if the city is burning and all they’re doing is playing…

Criticize them for not doing anything about the fact that the city is burning. What else they are doing or is irrelevant to that point.

It is not irrelevant. Faith is never irrelevant.

That misses my point. I wasn’t saying faith itself was irrelevant

But they aren’t using it for God’s glory, they’re using it for their own. And that is extremely relevant.

And a valid thing to criticize them for.

They. do. not. care. They don’t do anything more than what is required to make them look good, and calling for prayer makes them look good.

I agree. Target your criticism towards their insincerity, not prayer or the asking for it.

chyron8472 said:

They do not care about fixing the problems with gun violence. They just want to use tragedy to look sympathetic and sway minds to thinking them worthy of staying in office.

A valid thing to criticize them for.

chyron8472 said:

I criticize them for using God to gain votes!!

Dang it, Warbler.

"When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

[…]

“And when you fast, don’t make it obvious, as the hypocrites do, for they try to look miserable and disheveled so people will admire them for their fasting. I tell you the truth, that is the only reward they will ever get. But when you fast, comb your hair and wash your face. Then no one will notice that you are fasting, except your Father, who knows what you do in private. And your Father, who sees everything, will reward you."

—Matthew 6:5-8,16-18

I criticize them for using prayer to glorify themselves.

Ok, but seems like some are criticizing prayer and the asking for prayer itself.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

TM2YC said:

There is nothing wrong with our leaders playing the violin… as long they are also providing adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation.

True, but if they don’t provide adequate fire-fighting services and fire-safety legislation, criticize them for that, not playing the violin.

But if the city is burning and all they’re doing is playing…

Criticize them for not doing anything about the fact that the city is burning. What else they are doing or is irrelevant to that point.

chyron8472 said:

“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.”

–Matthew 6:5-6

If they pray, they should do so privately. They should not stand on the street corners and use prayer to tout themselves.

I don’t think that means we should’t ask people to pray. Yes, criticize for not meaning it, don’t criticize praying or the asking for prayer itself.