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VegetableMan

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19-Apr-2016
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23-Sep-2022
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Post
#1496736
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Anchorhead said:

VegetableMan said:

Anchorhead said:

Well then, guess that explains why he was trying to avoid him in the quarry. 😉

I have noticed you said you never watched the prequels and I wonder. Is it because you don’t want them to taint how you view the OT or are you just not interested?
I’m not blaming you or anything I’m just really curious.

Little of both I suppose, but mostly because I’m not interested. I saw Phantom when it was released, thought it was terrible, and have all but forgotten it. I remember a few scenes, but it’s not something I can recall other than how non-OT it looked and felt.

I haven’t seen the last sequel film either. Same reason. I’ve also only seen ROTJ twice that I’m sure of. Once in the theater and I wanted to walk out it was so stupid. I know I saw it again about 20 years ago when we did a lunchtime theater marathon of the OT where I worked. It’s possible there was a third time somewhere along the way, but I can’t be sure. That lunchtime theater was also the last time I saw Empire.

I don’t have a problem skipping what I don’t care for. I don’t battle the franchise the way some people do. They’re just movies. I watch what I like and skip the rest. It’s not difficult at all.

Sorry for the late reply, I only just now logged back in.
That’s a very unusual take but very instersting, and basic when you think about it. Don’t watch what you don’t care for! Simple. I think we get so caught up in Star Wars as a cultural phenomena that we forget that they’re just movies and we don’t have to watch them all. Like any movie, if you’re not interested you don’t have to watch it.

Post
#1492271
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Anchorhead said:

Well then, guess that explains why he was trying to avoid him in the quarry. 😉

I have noticed you said you never watched the prequels and I wonder. Is it because you don’t want them to taint how you view the OT or are you just not interested?
I’m not blaming you or anything I’m just really curious.

Post
#1492227
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Anchorhead said:

henzINNIT said:
…and whether Obi-Wan walking away after defeating Vader makes sense. I don’t believe it does, but that is no doubt influenced by my reading of Ben’s intentions in the OT. If I was to buy in to the notion that killing Vader is just not a jedi thing to do

I’m not familiar with the prequels, so this may be a dumb question: does Obi Wan know how bad a person Vader has become by the time he sees him in this show? Maybe he doesn’t kill him because he’s unaware of just how horrible he really is. He probably doesn’t think of him as someone who is going to become so evil that he’ll be ok with helping Tarkin kill millions of people.

Obi-Wan witnesses the aftermath of the Jedi Temple massacre (lots of Jedi bodies) and watches an hologram of Vader killing the younglings. Afterwards he kinda tries to reason with Vader, who proceeds to strangle his own wife, and then goes into a rant about bringing justice to the empire. So I think Obi knows how bad Vader really is.

Post
#1489964
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

I think its pretty clear that to Lucas, the Jedi were the ultimate good guys, and that they are not inherently flawed, but do not always make the best decisions. The more flawed view of them comes from the EU.

"As the situation develops in the Clone Wars they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They’re not generals. They don’t kill people. They don’t fight. They’re supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should never have been in the army, but it’s a though call. It’s one of those conundrums, of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick by their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated, which was their downfall.” — George Lucas

“The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”
A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.”
— George Lucas

When it comes to the Clone Wars, Lucas makes it clear in interviews that joining the war was not by their own will, but out of necessity to try to keep as much good and order as possible. They’ve also been drafted he says, and forced to fight, which aligns with the Vietnam draft that occurred during Lucas’ own youth.

As for their rules and beliefs? Lucas never intended for them to be wrong about anything like that, especially attachment. Lucas considers himself a Buddhist Methodist, and used Zen Buddhist Monks and their philosophies as the fundamental basis for the Jedi Order. One of those major ideas is forgoing attachments, which does not really mean the same in the Buddhist tradition as it means in the West.

“The message [of Attack of the Clones] is you can’t possess things. You can’t hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of – that you’re going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person.” — George Lucas

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.
“But he become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he’s been prepping for this, but that’s the one where he’s sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate.
“He’s greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he’s greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There’s a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. [….]
“Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders.”
— George Lucas

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth,” he continues, “They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments.” — George Lucas

“The thing with Anakin is that he started out a great kid he was very compassionate, so the issue was how did he turn bad. How did he go to the dark side? He went to the dark side, Jedi aren’t supposed to have attachments. They can love people, they can do that, but they can’t attach, that’s the problem in the world of fear. Once you are attached to something then you become afraid of losing it. And when you become afraid of losing it, then you turn to the dark side, and you want to hold onto it, and that was Anakin’s issue. Ultimately, that he wanted to hold onto his wife who he knew, he had a premonition that she was going to die, he didn’t know how to stop it, so he went to the dark side. In mythology you go to Hades, and you talk to the devil, and the devil says ‘this is what you do’ and basically you sell your soul to the devil. When you do that, and you’re afraid and you’re on the dark side and you fall off the golden path of compassion because you are greedy, you want to hold on to something that you love and he didn’t do the right thing and as a result he turned bad.” — George Lucas

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can’t hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them." — George Lucas

Now, whether Lucas did a good job conveying these ideas, or whether one agrees with these ideas, is another debate altogether. I do not believe that Lucas meant the Jedi to be seen as a flawed institution, though they sometimes made mistakes, and many Jedi were prone to arrogance just like any other person. Again, whether he did a good job conveying these ideas is up to debate, and though I like what Lucas was going for, I think it could certainly have been brought out better within the films themselves.

EU authors like Karen Traviss for example, were the ones that really started the idea that the Jedi Order was inherently flawed within official (albeit EU) stories. I’ve seen authors like John Jackson Miller, Karen Miller, and others continue with these ideas, though not as critically. Dave Filoni also has his famous analysis of The Phantom Menace, which I have always viewed as him seeing what he wanted to see with the prequels, and him interpreting them his own way. To make it clear: this is perfectly fine, I’m not arguing against it at all and again I see validity to it since the prequels leave a lot open to interpretation as any good art should. But when we are talking about what Lucas himself intended, and how he views the Jedi, I think its very important to make this distinction.

I really appreciate your answer, and all the quotes you provided really help me better understand what Lucas was going for, even if I’m not sure I agree with his ideas lol. Thanks!

Post
#1489962
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Hal 9000 said:
But it seems to have taken a penny on these and left a few pennies in return. In the OT, Ben seems viscerally aware of the sort of effects the Empire has on the galaxy at large, and with Vader as more machine than man. These give the impression of something other than watching the news. Originally this was because the Empire seemed to predate Luke himself, and Vader likely having a more involved history with Kenobi, before later continuity came about.

I don’t know if that’s what you were implying, but Ben saying Vader is more machine than man is a line from ROTJ, not ANH. So it makes sense for him to say that after seeing Vader in ANH. I saw a few people make the mistake of thinking the line was from ANH and thus was a plot hole, but it’s not. Just wanted to clarify!

Post
#1452501
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

I agree there’s a lot to love about Attack of the Clones (the Coruscant chase scene remains one of my favorite scene from the movies) but there are 4 things that make it one of the worst movie in the saga in my opinion:

-the love story.

-The mystery surrounding Padmé’s assassination attempt/clone army creation makes no sense.

-As people above me already said, the wasted potential of Owen Lars. Anakin’s encounter with his step-family was the perfect opportunity to show us what his life could have been if he never left Tatooine. There could have been a couple of scenes where he and Owen discuss there views of the world: running away on adventures vs staying home safe and not “getting involved”. Anakin could have question the Jedi and his life even more because of that, but ultimately would have to leave to rescue Obi-Wan. I still really like the Tatooine part of the movie as it is, but it’s a shame when I think about what could have been.

-Anakin killing the Tusken raiders feels too extreme.

Sorry this might have been off-topic, so here’s two unpopular opinions:
The Battle of Hoth is overrated
If I had to keep one change from the SE, it would probably be ghost Anakin.

Post
#1446553
Topic
General Star Wars Questions
Time

Stardust1138 said:

This looks like the thread to ask. Does anyone remember the story about the Stardust Hotel during the making of Return of the Jedi and how Anthony Daniels was given the nickname of Stardust by a member of the crew on the first film? I can’t seem to find anything about it anymore with how searches are now overpopulated with Jyn and Rogue One. I’ve always seen that callback as a homage to that particular story. I believe also Anthony Daniels talks about it in the commentary of Return of the Jedi but it’s been awhile since I’ve listened to it while watching the film.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=fzCxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=Anthony+Daniels+Stardust+Motel&source=bl&ots=ndiZ7gnzSp&sig=ACfU3U1eDs6xSrRAgGlad6AbCnS9gsZc0w&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKs7T4u9nyAhWNxoUKHVTIC0YQ6AF6BAgaEAM#v=onepage&q=Anthony Daniels Stardust Motel&f=false

I found this that might interest you (second paragraph of page 52).

Post
#1430960
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

-The biggest flaw of the PT is not the acting, the dialogue, the CGI, the writing, or the overall story. It’s the small inconsistencies with the OT that accumulates throughout the movies.

Imo, retcons should be encouraged when they make for a better scene. I’d much rather cut the lines about Leia’s mother in RotJ than have Padme awkwardly survive RotS. I’d rather change the line about Obi-Wan’s teacher in ESB than erase Qui-Gon from TPM. The priority to me is that final product is cohesive, and if that means going back to change older bits to match I’m all for it.

That makes sense but as you say the final product has to be cohesive, and I feel it isn’t sometimes. And since the PT was made after the OT, it was its job to connect the dots. Even if I agree it would be easier to just change the lines in the OT.

About the Padmé one, I agree that it makes more sense for her to die at the end of ROTS. But I think it’s a shame that during the course of the OT, the only mention we get about this major character from the PT turns out to be retconned and lose the weight it could have had when watching 1 through 6.

And like I said in my earlier post, other ones are just frustrating because they could easily be fixed by a couple of lines in the PT itself. A line about Anakin’s lightsaber for his son, some lines about Anakin and Owen’s differences, etc… These are not necessarily things that were retconned in the PT, but simply things not adressed, that I think created inconsitencies.

Post
#1425004
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

George Lucas: “All democracies turn into dictatorships – but not by coup. The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it’s Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea…”

This is the quote I’m referring to.

Caesar actually did take power through a coup (which is why this quote is so ironic), and the general population of Germany never supported Hitler during his rise to power, he was appointed by the previous Chancellor. The highest he ever got in the popular vote was 33%.

I don’t know much about Napoleon’s rise to power to be honest, but I doubt he fits Lucas’s idea of history either. Because he’d be, like, the one exception. This sort of misanthropic view of authoritarianism is ahistorical and just inaccurate.

Well, Napoléon too literally came into power with a coup lol. So not a very clever quote from M. Lucas.
He should have made his analogy with the fall of the Roman Republic but take Augustus (a literal emperor) as an exemple of a guy who comes into power without a coup, not Caesar. It makes more sense and there are a lot more parallels to be drawn between him and Palpatine.

Post
#1424884
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

Thanks for your answers they’re all very interesting and made me realise I should rewatch the movies to better see the clues.

One thing that has always bothered me though, ever since I was a kid, is that even if the Jedi were deliberately portrayed as flawed it seems the movies prove them right in some of their ambiguous teachings. For exemple, concerning the « no-attachements » rule, watching AOTC as a kid I remember thinking the Jedi were assholes for banning relationships but then ROTS seemed to validate them because it was like : « see they were right, because a romantic relationship led Anakin to the dark side ». I know it’s not that simple, but as a 12 year-old that’s how I and I’m sure a lot of other kids my age understood it.

I just wish there was a line from Yoda or Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS that acknowleges the Jedi’s errors to make it clear.

Post
#1424499
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

Some of them are really dumb like Obi Wan’s teacher not being Yoda. And Leia’s mom dying before she was a little girl on Alderaan.

Other ones can be chalked up to Obi Wan lying or exaggerating or not remembering things. Like saying he never owned a droid, or that Anakin wanted Luke to have the saber when he was old enough. Or that Anakin was a great starpilot and a cunning warrior and a good friend. What was he supposed to do tell him yeah i cut off all your dad’s limbs when he went to the dark side and he is Darth Vader by the way, and your dad also killed your mom and used this saber to cut down a bunch of younglings. I’m sure Luke would have been up to joining Obi Wan on an adventure then.

The most problematic for me are what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ANH and Yoda not being Obi-Wan’s teacher.

Anakin being a great starpilot/cunning warrior/good friend I feel is shown in the PT. But Luke’s father wanting him to have his lightsaber, Owen not wanting him to join Obi-Wan and get involved etc, I just can’t chalked it up to Obi-Wan lying. You just know watching the movie that the original backstory was different and no amount of retcon like “he’s lying” works for me.

It’s even more frustrating because they would have been easily fixable in my opinion. Add a couple of lines from Owen in AOTC showing he wants Anakin to stay on the farm now that he is back on Tatooine. Have Anakin say to Obi-Wan somewhere in AOTC or ROTS that he would like to have kids one day and for them to be Jedi, etc…
As for Yoda being Obi-Wan’s master, it’s as easily fixable without altering the movies that much. Just have Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon both be Yoda’s students in TPM with Qui-Gon having the big brother role to Obi-Wan without being his actual master, just his older fellow student. Or they could have just emphasize the fact that Yoda teaches all younglings before they are assigned on a master/Padawan relationship.

The Padmé/Leia one doesn’t bother me as much because for some reason the excuse “it’s the Force” almost works for me. I just wish in the movie Padmé would hold Leia in her arms for a few moments or something. That way the “Force” explanation would be a bit more reasonable.

Post
#1424387
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

-The biggest flaw of the PT is not the acting, the dialogue, the CGI, the writing, or the overall story. It’s the small inconsistencies with the OT that accumulates throughout the movies.

-As much as I love Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan (in my mind, he is as much if not more Obi-Wan as Alec Guinness), I don’t think he looks like Alec Guinness at all and I don’t understand when people say he was perfectly cast (as in, cast based on looks only). I just don’t see it. Are people just fooled by the haircut/beard and accent?

Post
#1424353
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

I feel the idea that the Jedi had become flawed by the time of the prequels and were partly responsible for the rise of the Empire and the fall of Anakin is an idea that is part of the canon now, but was never really intended in the movies. It’s only in the Clone Wars show (I haven’t watched it, but from what I’ve heard), the EU, and even the new movies (for ex: Luke telling Rey about the Jedi allowing Palpatine to rise) that this notion is ever established. I read some parts of the ROTS novelization recently and at the end it seems Yoda realize their failings and errors, but that’s just in the novel, not in the movie.
In the movies, the only times it’s adressed that the Jedi are flawed is by the bad guys (Dooku, Palpatine, Anakin/Vader), so it just seems like typical bad guy talk (“You guys are no better than me” kind of speech) with no real weight.

So, did George intended to show the Jedi this way? Or was he thinking the Jedi were 100% good guys with no flaws, but it didn’t really translate that well in the final products, so that was retconned later?

Post
#1422869
Topic
What's the justification/in-universe explanation for this Darth Vader SE change?
Time

It’s funny, I never thought about this change as Darth Vader learning about Luke, and it’s the first time I hear the theory about him hiding what he knows to the Emperor. I always took it as Vader and Palpatine discussing the issue for the first time, like they haven’t talked in a while and Vader is like “so I learned about this Skywalker kid, is he really my son? How is that possible?”, asking for confirmation to the Emperor. I don’t know if I’m clear.

I’m no SE defender, I don’t like this change either. But I always took the dialogue this way, it’s only on the Internet when I saw people complaining about this change that I realized maybe the intent was for Vader to learn Luke’s identity in this scene.

As for the explanation of why this change was made, I think SparkySywer is right, Lucas wanted to adress the fact that Vader is supposed to believe his kid is dead in ROTS. Or he just wanted to add some pointless foreshadowing to the “I am your father” reveal with the “search your feelings” line.

Post
#1392533
Topic
How many times have you bought the movies?
Time

My parents had ROTJ VHS pre-SE
(I then had VHS copies of ANH and ESB 1997 SE)
TPM, AOTC, and ROTS DVDs when they were released (TPM was actually my first ever DVD bought by my grandparents for one of my birthdays)
Original Trilogy 4 DVDs box set 2004
Original Trilogy 6 DVDs box set 2006 (with the GOUT as bonus discs).

Post
#1270286
Topic
A small edit of the Order 66 scene - Anakin killing Shaak-Ti in the Jedi Temple...
Time

I don’t like the scene of Anakin killing the Younglings in Revenge Of The Sith, and it would have been nice to see a bit more action of Anakin in the Jedi Temple. I had completely forgotten the deleted scene of him killing Shaak-Ti and walking through the Jedi Temple, so I decided to edit it in, and remove the Younglings’ scene. I added some sound effects (for Anakin’s lightsaber and Shaak-Ti falling to the ground), and rearranged John Williams’ score so it would fit well with the scene. I didn’t spend much time on it and I don’t have much experience in fan editing so it’s not perfect but I just wanted to see if the scene could fit in the movie, and I think it does. This happens at the end of the Order 66 scene, right after Yoda escapes with the Wookiees, and just before Padmé is watching the Jedi Temple burning from her appartment.

If the special effects were finished and the scene was actually in the movie, I think it would almost satisfy me. We get a glimpse of the shitstorm inside the Temple, and we get to see Anakin killing a Jedi in a dark way.
Do you think it could be possible, with enough time and the right programs, for a fan to finish the special effects and make it watchable?

Here is the link: https://vimeo.com/318225559

What do you think?

Post
#1269382
Topic
A simple change to make Revenge Of The Sith better.
Time

RogueLeader said:

This idea has actually been discussed before. Since Anakin is shrouded in his robes, this is something that could possibly be reshot if some plates were created and then actors in costume films in front of a green screen. You would also need to rework some character dialogue to remove mention of the Separatists on Mustafar, and possibly add some to get that info across.

And you could just trim Obi-Wan’s Utupau mission to have Obi-Wan jump down before the Separatist leaders leave. That way we could just assume they get captured by the Clone Army before they can escape.

I have to say I’m not that surprised this has been discussed before because ever since I re-worked it like that in my headcannon, it seems to be so obvious that this is what should have happened. Why did George Lucas decided to make Anakin’s “badass” scene with the separatists?! Most people don’t care about them, we want to see Anakin destroy some Jedi! It would have made so much sense, especially with the cuts back and forth with Palpatine declaring the Jedi enemies of the Republic and creating the Empire.

Instead of reshooting the scene, could it possible to just digitally add some lightsabers to the separatists, and maybe digitally insert some different faces to them?

Post
#1269378
Topic
A simple change to make Revenge Of The Sith better.
Time

NeverarGreat said:

I actually think the point of no return for the story was Anakin killing the Tusken Raiders, women and children included. That was when I checked out anyway.

I forgot about that, but for some reason it doesn’t bother me that much. Maybe I see it as more “forgivable” because his mother just died and they are an aggressive species.

Post
#1269375
Topic
A simple change to make Revenge Of The Sith better.
Time

I’ll try keeping it short. Basically I really like Revenge Of The Sith but a few things almost ruins it for me, and are keeping me from really loving it. You all heard the complaints, so no need to explain.
But I would say the main thing that I hate in the movie is Anakin killing children. How can a man whose story is about redemption be redeemed when he killed children. I think it’s the biggest thing that ruins Anakin’s character in the prequels, not the whining or the sometimes questionable acting, but this 10 seconds where we see him enter that room. If this short scene was cut, and references to “youglings” just be replaced by “Jedi” or “Padawans”, I would like the film much better. So this things are doable with edits. But I came up with an idea (maybe it has already been suggested by someone, I don’t remember if I read it somewhere or came up with it myself, in this case, I didn’t “come up” with the idea, but I’ll just share it anyway) that could make it even better, but unfortunately not doable with edits.
So another complaint I have with the movie, that goes hand to hand with the one I already described, is that we didn’t get to see Darth Vader really “hunt down the Jedi” as Obi-Wan said in Star Wars. Going to the Jedi Temple isn’t really hunting them down. So what I suggest is that when Palpatine tells Darth Vader to go to Mustafar to kill the separatists leaders, is changing that part of the scenario. Instead of the separatists, it is the remaining Jedi that have escaped Order 66 and are hiding there. You could imagine something like all the separatists got killed on Utapau by the Clones. Anakin/Darth Vader goes to Mustafar like in the movie but instead we get a nice scene with him fighting a few Jedi and killing them, showing how powerful he is and making Obi-Wan’s claim in Star Wars of him hunting the Jedi more close to the truth. Then Obi-Wan arrives to Mustafar to regroup with the last Jedi only to find them all killed, and the following is just like the movie.
This is basically my headcannon now. What do you think?

TL;DR: Anakin doesn’t kill children, and the guys he kills on Mustafar aren’t the separatists leaders but surviving Jedi that are hiding there