VegetableMan

oojason said:

VegetableMan said:

Mocata said:

True, however, I think that quote is simply being used as a bullet point heading. In 1977 Vader was not Anakin so the problem is a post ESB one. Obi-wan isn’t shocked to see his friend on the Death Star because his old pupil was always just Darth Vader. Once he’s changed to be Luke’s father in 1980 there are more gaps to fill. Obviously there have been further retcons since and they meet in a TV series.

I don’t think the quote was simply being used as a bullet point, as OP made a specific entry for it. Point 14 already addressed what you’re saying about Obi-Wan and Vader, so there was no need to add point 15 unless it was to talk about that particular quote.
And since I’ve already seen the quote used incorrectly a few times (for example, I remember seeing people use it to justify Obi-Wan and Vader meeting in the Kenobi show, because “how could Obi-Wan know Vader’s more machine than man at the beginning of ANH?”), I just wanted to point it out.
By the way, I’m not trying to defend the many inconsistencies that exist between the OT and PT, it’s usually the thing that annoys me the most about the franchise!

The quote was indeed used as a bullet point, as far as I can remember (it was written / compiled some time ago) 😉.

The intent / context was ‘how does Obi Wan know Anakin is Vader’ and the evil and twisted exploits being carried out by Vader. It wasn’t meant as a literal Kenobi comparison quote from ROTJ - because as everyone knows… Kenobi has already fought him on the first Death Star (though as Mocata stated above, at the time of Star Wars '77, Anakin and Vader were indeed two completely separate characters; I never like to miss a relevant opportunity to bring that up). 👍

I probably shouldn’t have used a literal ROTJ quote for that bullet point if it somehow led people to mistakenly jump on that - seemingly the context and relevance of that bullet point post got lost in using that ROTJ quote to try and illustrate that aspect of the actual topic; plus the ‘best guess’ scenario as Obi-Wan may have heard news and rumours about Vader and his exploits whilst living in hiding - yet was unable to do anything about it. My apologies for any confusion.

It is also probably worth remembering this is an ‘unfinished draft’ - as stated in the opening sentence of the thread (and it was really never finished; only really being posted ‘as is’) - which is also highlighted later in the thread, too.
 

VegetableMan said:

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone complaining about that.

It really isn’t ‘complaining’ to chronicle and highlight issues that fans had with the disconnects and issues between the Original Trilogy and the Prequels, is it?

Hope you enjoyed the rest of it - if there are any issues with the other categories please let me know. 👍
 

Ok I think I get it: How does Obi-Wan know about Vader’s atrocities during the years between Episode III and IV?
I guess I don’t see it as a problem because, if I remember correctly, the only thing Obi-Wan tells Luke about Vader in the original movie is that he was once his pupil until he turned to evil, and that he helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Things that happened in ROTS and that Obi-Wan was already aware of before he left him for dead. He never mentions his appearance as a man-machine figure or anything happening after ROTS. It doesn’t require the usual mental gymnastics to imagine that Obi-Wan isn’t aware of Vader’s exploits after their last encounter on Mustafar (ignoring the Kenobi show).

Also I want to point out that English isn’t my first language so maybe sometimes I don’t use the right words in the right places. However, I just looked up ‘complaining’ on the online Cambridge Dictionary to be sure, and the definition is “the act of saying that something is wrong or not satisfactory”. So it seems to apply here.

Like I said, one of the aspects of Star Wars I’m most fascinated (and frustrated) by is the discrepancies between the two trilogies. So, even though there were some things I didn’t agree with, I very much enjoyed your post.

Mocata said:

True, however, I think that quote is simply being used as a bullet point heading. In 1977 Vader was not Anakin so the problem is a post ESB one. Obi-wan isn’t shocked to see his friend on the Death Star because his old pupil was always just Darth Vader. Once he’s changed to be Luke’s father in 1980 there are more gaps to fill. Obviously there have been further retcons since and they meet in a TV series.

I don’t think the quote was simply being used as a bullet point, as OP made a specific entry for it. Point 14 already addressed what you’re saying about Obi-Wan and Vader, so there was no need to add point 15 unless it was to talk about that particular quote.
And since I’ve already seen the quote used incorrectly a few times (for example, I remember seeing people use it to justify Obi-Wan and Vader meeting in the Kenobi show, because “how could Obi-Wan know Vader’s more machine than man at the beginning of ANH?”), I just wanted to point it out.
By the way, I’m not trying to defend the many inconsistencies that exist between the OT and PT, it’s usually the thing that annoys me the most about the franchise!

15 • “He is more machine now, than man… twisted and evil.” How does Obi-Wan know this?

 
Even if Obi-Wan knew that Anakin had survived their dual on Mustafar in ROTS… how did he know Anakin is now the menacing part-man / part-machine figure of Vader…?

We unfortunately don’t, as much like the topic above… this wasn’t shown in the Prequel Trilogy.

A best guess is that Obi-Wan likely saw or overheard news reports while he was in hiding on Tatooine. It must have been made more difficult for Obi-Wan hearing such reports over the years about the atrocities that this mysterious Vader was committing, yet unable to do anything about them. All the while attempting to reconcile this with the man who was his padawan, someone he also considered a brother, and a good friend (although we didn’t really see much evidence of this in the Prequel Trilogy).

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone complaining about that. But people seem to forget that the “more machine now, than man” line is from ROTJ. So there’s no inconsistency there, as Obi-Wan actually met and fought cyborg-Vader in ANH.

Channel72 said:

One problem with Padme is that she doesn’t really do much in ROTS. Most of the scenes where she does anything significant (negotiating with other Senators to form a proto-Rebel alliance) were cut from the movie. And even if those scenes remained, they really have no impact on the plot of RoTS itself.

I think Lucas just didn’t know what to do with her. The main problem from a writing standpoint is that all the main characters in the Prequels - except Padme - are super-human Jedi. It’s hard to write her into the story and have her do anything to drive the plot, except in the political arena. Even in AoTC she mostly just follows Anakin around after Act I. They integrated her into the action scenes at the end, but it was kind of clumsy because she’s not too helpful in an action scene when everyone else is a super-human Force user. Her character was best utilized in Phantom Menace, where her decisions and actions largely drive the plot. But in AoTC and ROTS, there was very little for her to do in the Jedi-centric narrative.

And of course, she doesn’t even have 1% of the personality and chemistry of Leia.

Anyway, the best female characters are in Andor. Mon Mothma and Dedra Meero steal the whole show in my opinion.

One thing I recently took notice of about Padmé is that for two movies in a row she’s knocked unconscious just before the climax so that the guys can have their swordfights. Not the most subtle writing.

Cyborgan Le Fay said:

I can’t help but feel like the Battle of Coruscant isn’t nearly long enough to sustain a whole movie.

I actually haven’t seen the Tartakovsky mini-series 💀 I suppose I should do that!

Yeah you’re probably right ! Maybe it could work if it wasn’t actually the whole movie ? For exemple Palpatine wouldn’t be kidnapped until the second act. That would leave the first act open to something else (maybe Anakin and Obi-Wan on a mission on a different planet), then the second act is the capture of Palpatine followed by the big space battle, and the third act is aboard the Invisible Hand. Something like that. I haven’t really thought this through, but I like the Battle of Coruscant sequence and I thought it was a cool idea to extend it to a whole movie (and it would kill two birds with one stone: having a full Obi/Anakin movie and a full Clone Wars movie).

Anyway, I’ve seen the Tartakovsky series praised so many times I have to watch it someday ! It appeals to me more than TCW in terms of animation, and also because it’s shorter !

Have AOTC be episode I (reworked a bit so it has elements of TPM). ROTS/episode III stay the same minus the opening rescue of Palpatine. Episode II would then just be the Battle of Coruscant extended to a full movie.
That way, no need to have a ‘2.5’ episode, it is still a trilogy, and we get to have a full movie of Obi/Anakin working together that also works as a full Clone Wars movie.
Don’t know how to have Padmé part of that storyline though. Maybe we get some back and forth between the battle above Coruscant and Padmé doing political stuff on Coruscant. Or just have her be with Anakin and Obi-Wan on the rescue mission and have them work as a trio like Luke-Han-Leia.

I just did a Star Wars marathon over the past couple of days. I watched from Episode 1 to 6. I decided I’d watched the SE and not the OOT when it came time for 4-6 and I gotta say, the SE didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would ! Jedi Rocks is still one of the shittiest things I have ever seen in a movie but the rest of the changes don’t bother me that much now. I especially liked the ROTJ ending with Hayden Christensen (not a very popular thing to say I know), I thought it tied up the 6 movies really nicely.
Of course the problem was always that the OOT is not properly released regardless of whether the changes are good or bad.
Anyway I just wanted to share my feelings towards the SE: not as bad or as distracting (except Jedi Rocks !) as I remembered.

Anchorhead said:

VegetableMan said:

Anchorhead said:

Well then, guess that explains why he was trying to avoid him in the quarry. 😉

I have noticed you said you never watched the prequels and I wonder. Is it because you don’t want them to taint how you view the OT or are you just not interested?
I’m not blaming you or anything I’m just really curious.

Little of both I suppose, but mostly because I’m not interested. I saw Phantom when it was released, thought it was terrible, and have all but forgotten it. I remember a few scenes, but it’s not something I can recall other than how non-OT it looked and felt.

I haven’t seen the last sequel film either. Same reason. I’ve also only seen ROTJ twice that I’m sure of. Once in the theater and I wanted to walk out it was so stupid. I know I saw it again about 20 years ago when we did a lunchtime theater marathon of the OT where I worked. It’s possible there was a third time somewhere along the way, but I can’t be sure. That lunchtime theater was also the last time I saw Empire.

I don’t have a problem skipping what I don’t care for. I don’t battle the franchise the way some people do. They’re just movies. I watch what I like and skip the rest. It’s not difficult at all.

Sorry for the late reply, I only just now logged back in.
That’s a very unusual take but very instersting, and basic when you think about it. Don’t watch what you don’t care for! Simple. I think we get so caught up in Star Wars as a cultural phenomena that we forget that they’re just movies and we don’t have to watch them all. Like any movie, if you’re not interested you don’t have to watch it.

Anchorhead said:

Well then, guess that explains why he was trying to avoid him in the quarry. 😉

I have noticed you said you never watched the prequels and I wonder. Is it because you don’t want them to taint how you view the OT or are you just not interested?
I’m not blaming you or anything I’m just really curious.

Anchorhead said:

henzINNIT said:
…and whether Obi-Wan walking away after defeating Vader makes sense. I don’t believe it does, but that is no doubt influenced by my reading of Ben’s intentions in the OT. If I was to buy in to the notion that killing Vader is just not a jedi thing to do

I’m not familiar with the prequels, so this may be a dumb question: does Obi Wan know how bad a person Vader has become by the time he sees him in this show? Maybe he doesn’t kill him because he’s unaware of just how horrible he really is. He probably doesn’t think of him as someone who is going to become so evil that he’ll be ok with helping Tarkin kill millions of people.

Obi-Wan witnesses the aftermath of the Jedi Temple massacre (lots of Jedi bodies) and watches an hologram of Vader killing the younglings. Afterwards he kinda tries to reason with Vader, who proceeds to strangle his own wife, and then goes into a rant about bringing justice to the empire. So I think Obi knows how bad Vader really is.

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

I think its pretty clear that to Lucas, the Jedi were the ultimate good guys, and that they are not inherently flawed, but do not always make the best decisions. The more flawed view of them comes from the EU.

"As the situation develops in the Clone Wars they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They’re not generals. They don’t kill people. They don’t fight. They’re supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should never have been in the army, but it’s a though call. It’s one of those conundrums, of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick by their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated, which was their downfall.” — George Lucas

“The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”
A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.” — George Lucas

When it comes to the Clone Wars, Lucas makes it clear in interviews that joining the war was not by their own will, but out of necessity to try to keep as much good and order as possible. They’ve also been drafted he says, and forced to fight, which aligns with the Vietnam draft that occurred during Lucas’ own youth.

As for their rules and beliefs? Lucas never intended for them to be wrong about anything like that, especially attachment. Lucas considers himself a Buddhist Methodist, and used Zen Buddhist Monks and their philosophies as the fundamental basis for the Jedi Order. One of those major ideas is forgoing attachments, which does not really mean the same in the Buddhist tradition as it means in the West.

“The message [of Attack of the Clones] is you can’t possess things. You can’t hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of – that you’re going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person.” — George Lucas

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.
“But he become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he’s been prepping for this, but that’s the one where he’s sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate.
“He’s greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he’s greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There’s a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. [….]
“Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders.” — George Lucas

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth,” he continues, “They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments.” — George Lucas

“The thing with Anakin is that he started out a great kid he was very compassionate, so the issue was how did he turn bad. How did he go to the dark side? He went to the dark side, Jedi aren’t supposed to have attachments. They can love people, they can do that, but they can’t attach, that’s the problem in the world of fear. Once you are attached to something then you become afraid of losing it. And when you become afraid of losing it, then you turn to the dark side, and you want to hold onto it, and that was Anakin’s issue. Ultimately, that he wanted to hold onto his wife who he knew, he had a premonition that she was going to die, he didn’t know how to stop it, so he went to the dark side. In mythology you go to Hades, and you talk to the devil, and the devil says ‘this is what you do’ and basically you sell your soul to the devil. When you do that, and you’re afraid and you’re on the dark side and you fall off the golden path of compassion because you are greedy, you want to hold on to something that you love and he didn’t do the right thing and as a result he turned bad.” — George Lucas

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can’t hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them." — George Lucas

Now, whether Lucas did a good job conveying these ideas, or whether one agrees with these ideas, is another debate altogether. I do not believe that Lucas meant the Jedi to be seen as a flawed institution, though they sometimes made mistakes, and many Jedi were prone to arrogance just like any other person. Again, whether he did a good job conveying these ideas is up to debate, and though I like what Lucas was going for, I think it could certainly have been brought out better within the films themselves.

EU authors like Karen Traviss for example, were the ones that really started the idea that the Jedi Order was inherently flawed within official (albeit EU) stories. I’ve seen authors like John Jackson Miller, Karen Miller, and others continue with these ideas, though not as critically. Dave Filoni also has his famous analysis of The Phantom Menace, which I have always viewed as him seeing what he wanted to see with the prequels, and him interpreting them his own way. To make it clear: this is perfectly fine, I’m not arguing against it at all and again I see validity to it since the prequels leave a lot open to interpretation as any good art should. But when we are talking about what Lucas himself intended, and how he views the Jedi, I think its very important to make this distinction.

I really appreciate your answer, and all the quotes you provided really help me better understand what Lucas was going for, even if I’m not sure I agree with his ideas lol. Thanks!

Hal 9000 said:
But it seems to have taken a penny on these and left a few pennies in return. In the OT, Ben seems viscerally aware of the sort of effects the Empire has on the galaxy at large, and with Vader as more machine than man. These give the impression of something other than watching the news. Originally this was because the Empire seemed to predate Luke himself, and Vader likely having a more involved history with Kenobi, before later continuity came about.

I don’t know if that’s what you were implying, but Ben saying Vader is more machine than man is a line from ROTJ, not ANH. So it makes sense for him to say that after seeing Vader in ANH. I saw a few people make the mistake of thinking the line was from ANH and thus was a plot hole, but it’s not. Just wanted to clarify!

I agree there’s a lot to love about Attack of the Clones (the Coruscant chase scene remains one of my favorite scene from the movies) but there are 4 things that make it one of the worst movie in the saga in my opinion:

-the love story.

-The mystery surrounding Padmé’s assassination attempt/clone army creation makes no sense.

-As people above me already said, the wasted potential of Owen Lars. Anakin’s encounter with his step-family was the perfect opportunity to show us what his life could have been if he never left Tatooine. There could have been a couple of scenes where he and Owen discuss there views of the world: running away on adventures vs staying home safe and not “getting involved”. Anakin could have question the Jedi and his life even more because of that, but ultimately would have to leave to rescue Obi-Wan. I still really like the Tatooine part of the movie as it is, but it’s a shame when I think about what could have been.

-Anakin killing the Tusken raiders feels too extreme.

Sorry this might have been off-topic, so here’s two unpopular opinions:
The Battle of Hoth is overrated
If I had to keep one change from the SE, it would probably be ghost Anakin.

Stardust1138 said:

This looks like the thread to ask. Does anyone remember the story about the Stardust Hotel during the making of Return of the Jedi and how Anthony Daniels was given the nickname of Stardust by a member of the crew on the first film? I can’t seem to find anything about it anymore with how searches are now overpopulated with Jyn and Rogue One. I’ve always seen that callback as a homage to that particular story. I believe also Anthony Daniels talks about it in the commentary of Return of the Jedi but it’s been awhile since I’ve listened to it while watching the film.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=fzCxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=Anthony+Daniels+Stardust+Motel&source=bl&ots=ndiZ7gnzSp&sig=ACfU3U1eDs6xSrRAgGlad6AbCnS9gsZc0w&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKs7T4u9nyAhWNxoUKHVTIC0YQ6AF6BAgaEAM#v=onepage&q=Anthony Daniels Stardust Motel&f=false

I found this that might interest you (second paragraph of page 52).

Stardust1138 said:

Everything makes sense now. 3PO was well aware of what he was doing when he interrupted Leia and Han’s moment.

😅

Considering Anakin made C3PO, Leia really likes kissing her brothers :p

Anakin Starkiller said:

-The biggest flaw of the PT is not the acting, the dialogue, the CGI, the writing, or the overall story. It’s the small inconsistencies with the OT that accumulates throughout the movies.

Imo, retcons should be encouraged when they make for a better scene. I’d much rather cut the lines about Leia’s mother in RotJ than have Padme awkwardly survive RotS. I’d rather change the line about Obi-Wan’s teacher in ESB than erase Qui-Gon from TPM. The priority to me is that final product is cohesive, and if that means going back to change older bits to match I’m all for it.

That makes sense but as you say the final product has to be cohesive, and I feel it isn’t sometimes. And since the PT was made after the OT, it was its job to connect the dots. Even if I agree it would be easier to just change the lines in the OT.

About the Padmé one, I agree that it makes more sense for her to die at the end of ROTS. But I think it’s a shame that during the course of the OT, the only mention we get about this major character from the PT turns out to be retconned and lose the weight it could have had when watching 1 through 6.

And like I said in my earlier post, other ones are just frustrating because they could easily be fixed by a couple of lines in the PT itself. A line about Anakin’s lightsaber for his son, some lines about Anakin and Owen’s differences, etc… These are not necessarily things that were retconned in the PT, but simply things not adressed, that I think created inconsitencies.

George Lucas: “All democracies turn into dictatorships – but not by coup. The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it’s Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea…”

This is the quote I’m referring to.

Caesar actually did take power through a coup (which is why this quote is so ironic), and the general population of Germany never supported Hitler during his rise to power, he was appointed by the previous Chancellor. The highest he ever got in the popular vote was 33%.

I don’t know much about Napoleon’s rise to power to be honest, but I doubt he fits Lucas’s idea of history either. Because he’d be, like, the one exception. This sort of misanthropic view of authoritarianism is ahistorical and just inaccurate.

Well, Napoléon too literally came into power with a coup lol. So not a very clever quote from M. Lucas.
He should have made his analogy with the fall of the Roman Republic but take Augustus (a literal emperor) as an exemple of a guy who comes into power without a coup, not Caesar. It makes more sense and there are a lot more parallels to be drawn between him and Palpatine.

Thanks for your answers they’re all very interesting and made me realise I should rewatch the movies to better see the clues.

One thing that has always bothered me though, ever since I was a kid, is that even if the Jedi were deliberately portrayed as flawed it seems the movies prove them right in some of their ambiguous teachings. For exemple, concerning the « no-attachements » rule, watching AOTC as a kid I remember thinking the Jedi were assholes for banning relationships but then ROTS seemed to validate them because it was like : « see they were right, because a romantic relationship led Anakin to the dark side ». I know it’s not that simple, but as a 12 year-old that’s how I and I’m sure a lot of other kids my age understood it.

I just wish there was a line from Yoda or Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS that acknowleges the Jedi’s errors to make it clear.

JadedSkywalker said:

Some of them are really dumb like Obi Wan’s teacher not being Yoda. And Leia’s mom dying before she was a little girl on Alderaan.

Other ones can be chalked up to Obi Wan lying or exaggerating or not remembering things. Like saying he never owned a droid, or that Anakin wanted Luke to have the saber when he was old enough. Or that Anakin was a great starpilot and a cunning warrior and a good friend. What was he supposed to do tell him yeah i cut off all your dad’s limbs when he went to the dark side and he is Darth Vader by the way, and your dad also killed your mom and used this saber to cut down a bunch of younglings. I’m sure Luke would have been up to joining Obi Wan on an adventure then.

The most problematic for me are what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ANH and Yoda not being Obi-Wan’s teacher.

Anakin being a great starpilot/cunning warrior/good friend I feel is shown in the PT. But Luke’s father wanting him to have his lightsaber, Owen not wanting him to join Obi-Wan and get involved etc, I just can’t chalked it up to Obi-Wan lying. You just know watching the movie that the original backstory was different and no amount of retcon like “he’s lying” works for me.

It’s even more frustrating because they would have been easily fixable in my opinion. Add a couple of lines from Owen in AOTC showing he wants Anakin to stay on the farm now that he is back on Tatooine. Have Anakin say to Obi-Wan somewhere in AOTC or ROTS that he would like to have kids one day and for them to be Jedi, etc…
As for Yoda being Obi-Wan’s master, it’s as easily fixable without altering the movies that much. Just have Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon both be Yoda’s students in TPM with Qui-Gon having the big brother role to Obi-Wan without being his actual master, just his older fellow student. Or they could have just emphasize the fact that Yoda teaches all younglings before they are assigned on a master/Padawan relationship.

The Padmé/Leia one doesn’t bother me as much because for some reason the excuse “it’s the Force” almost works for me. I just wish in the movie Padmé would hold Leia in her arms for a few moments or something. That way the “Force” explanation would be a bit more reasonable.

-The biggest flaw of the PT is not the acting, the dialogue, the CGI, the writing, or the overall story. It’s the small inconsistencies with the OT that accumulates throughout the movies.

-As much as I love Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan (in my mind, he is as much if not more Obi-Wan as Alec Guinness), I don’t think he looks like Alec Guinness at all and I don’t understand when people say he was perfectly cast (as in, cast based on looks only). I just don’t see it. Are people just fooled by the haircut/beard and accent?

I now like Hayden as Anakin for the most part. But when I used to daydream about alternate prequels, I liked to imagine Anakin as a Michael Fassbender as Magneto type of character.

I feel the idea that the Jedi had become flawed by the time of the prequels and were partly responsible for the rise of the Empire and the fall of Anakin is an idea that is part of the canon now, but was never really intended in the movies. It’s only in the Clone Wars show (I haven’t watched it, but from what I’ve heard), the EU, and even the new movies (for ex: Luke telling Rey about the Jedi allowing Palpatine to rise) that this notion is ever established. I read some parts of the ROTS novelization recently and at the end it seems Yoda realize their failings and errors, but that’s just in the novel, not in the movie.
In the movies, the only times it’s adressed that the Jedi are flawed is by the bad guys (Dooku, Palpatine, Anakin/Vader), so it just seems like typical bad guy talk (“You guys are no better than me” kind of speech) with no real weight.

So, did George intended to show the Jedi this way? Or was he thinking the Jedi were 100% good guys with no flaws, but it didn’t really translate that well in the final products, so that was retconned later?

It’s funny, I never thought about this change as Darth Vader learning about Luke, and it’s the first time I hear the theory about him hiding what he knows to the Emperor. I always took it as Vader and Palpatine discussing the issue for the first time, like they haven’t talked in a while and Vader is like “so I learned about this Skywalker kid, is he really my son? How is that possible?”, asking for confirmation to the Emperor. I don’t know if I’m clear.

I’m no SE defender, I don’t like this change either. But I always took the dialogue this way, it’s only on the Internet when I saw people complaining about this change that I realized maybe the intent was for Vader to learn Luke’s identity in this scene.

As for the explanation of why this change was made, I think SparkySywer is right, Lucas wanted to adress the fact that Vader is supposed to believe his kid is dead in ROTS. Or he just wanted to add some pointless foreshadowing to the “I am your father” reveal with the “search your feelings” line.

My parents had ROTJ VHS pre-SE
(I then had VHS copies of ANH and ESB 1997 SE)
TPM, AOTC, and ROTS DVDs when they were released (TPM was actually my first ever DVD bought by my grandparents for one of my birthdays)
Original Trilogy 4 DVDs box set 2004
Original Trilogy 6 DVDs box set 2006 (with the GOUT as bonus discs).

The story of the Cantina Band. From the formation of the band, to their success touring in different places in the Galaxy, to the eventual tensions within the band, and their break-up.