Tosche Station

RangerofAquilae said:

I’ve only ever heard of Option C in this thread, which, incidentally, is also where I learned of its rather dubious origin.

You mean the possibility that it originated as a ‘leak’ from LFL? You may or may not have been aware prior to this thread that like the Clone version (“Option A”), this one - Option C - was also circulated as a rumor circa 1980-1981. As I mentioned before, it could go back to the third draft of SW:ANH at the earliest, or in that period between the third and fourth drafts (and wasn’t ‘dropped’ by the fourth draft or film). I wouldn’t say there’s evidence per se, but clues or hints. Luke’s father (Annikin) himself perhaps taking/hiding his child (there was only Luke at this point, before the Neilith-Leia sister) - rather than Ben - might point towards this scenario, that and the fact that Luke remembers his father in the third draft. But then Lucas changed this with the fourth draft to Luke having no memory of him. Even so, Lucas seemingly stuck to this idea for the first draft of ESB written by Brackett - according to a note uncovered by Rinzler - even though Vader isn’t supposed to be Luke’s father in this script.

The ‘clues’ that I thought made Option B (‘The Secret Affair’) plausible were:

1. The lack of Luke’s father specifically given any name whatsoever in the films (and the script drafts) until ROTJ. As though Lucas wanted Vader as the father but wasn’t committed to Anakin being his father?
2. I thought Vader saying “Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!”. This one is admittedly weak - I had probably overreached on Vader’s thought process in ESB assuming that Ben hadn’t told Luke the truth, unless it was because Vader thought Ben didn’t know because his affair was secret.
3. Ben and Yoda not knowing (following from above point) ‘explaining’ why they don’t tell or warn Luke before he leaves Dagobah. Also the Emperor speaking to Vader as though (Anakin) Skywalker Sr. was a separate person from Vader (instead of saying “YOUR son must not become a Jedi”. Even though there was a good out-of-Universe reason for this: it would have spoiled the surprise of the twist.

The thing about Lucas and Kurtz’s ‘half-truths’ that I mentioned before is that they ironically paint a more accurate picture of what really happened in the creative/story department than LFL’s official ‘referee’-like stance, which relies on dubious coincidences and just-so conclusions, like “Lucas just came up with the fully formed ROTJ twist when writing the second draft of ESB after Leigh Brackett completed her draft” (with many in the film and fan community following suit).

Though I think Options A and B have their merits - Option A being the stronger of the two, in that there’s no contradiction between ANH and ESB - I lean towards Option C. Beside the other reasons I posted, I think it makes sense of other tendencies of Lucas, like his scenario for the second draft (1995) of TPM, where Obi-Wan the Jedi Master is actually killed by Darth Maul(not Qui-Gon), and his young Padawan Qui-Gon subsequently takes on the name and identity of ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ thereafter in honor of his master. Or things like Kasdan half-jokingly tossing out an idea for ROTJ to have Luke put on Vader’s helmet and pretend to be the ‘new Vader’ as an act of subterfuge. I don’t think Kasdan pulled that idea out of nowhere. Kurtz’ take on ESB or a ROTJ-that-never-was for Vader to be actively seeking to ‘make amends’ and make things right with Luke’s help - the only sort of redemptive angle he saw for the character - might or might not have been a left-over plot point of the earlier ‘identity switch’ Option C angle.

@Avimo posted:

• “I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.”*

You may be right, Avimo. In that same “Star Wars to Jedi” 1983 doc*, Lucas says (paraphrasing) something to the affect of “when we got down to the second one, I said to myself, do I want to go through with this? With him being his father?”. And I think in the 1993 ‘The Art of Star Wars Galaxy’ Vol One, paraphrasing, he says something to the affect of being a little taken aback by Vader’s popularity after Star Wars came out in 1977, but that he (Lucas) decided to stick to the original story (of him being his father).

*see: (https://youtu.be/YKhGkiHSlAA?t=3292)

• courtesy of poster @Barfolomew

RangerofAquilae said:

Tosche Station said:

Avimo said:

Very cool stuff! I love studying the history of SW and the “when was Vader made Luke’s father” debate is one of my favorite topics to research. I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.

I highly doubt Marcia’s claim is real. In that same interview that she said that, she said so many other things about SW’s history and her role in stuff that’s just blatantly not true; An example includes her saying “I never even knew there were two stories” which is obvious nonsense because the second ANH draft ends with a sequel teaser, Lucas said to Foster in December 1975 he planned two sequels and a prequel, and Mark Hamill said the actors were all signed on for a trilogy and Lucas mentioned an Episode IX to him in 1976, and I highly doubt George wouldn’t have told his own wife and editor about these plans especially since he already asked her for help with story related stuff multiple times before. Other examples include Marcia saying she suggested to Lucas to cut the Luke and Biggs scenes when Rinzler’s book says Marcia fought to keep them in, Marcia saying the idea of killing Obi-Wan was entirely hers when George said in a 1977 interview (which is years before the divorce so there’s no bias there) that he was already considering the idea of killing Obi-Wan at the time Marcia suggested it, and more. So for now I’m taking Marcia’s claim with a grain of salt because it doesn’t seem like Marcia’s recollection of SW’s history in general is very accurate or unbiased.

@Tosche Station, I’ve read through your posts on both here and the Jedi Council forums on this topic, and I just want to say I really admire your research and theories; you’ve come up with some fantastic and really well ideas and takes on this topic that I never even thought of. I would like to know though where this “google search link” where you found this alleged Kurtz quote is located; I copied and pasted the contents of your quote into Google multiple times and nothing came up. It sounds very intriguing and I’m curious to see it myself. But even if it’s real, it seems to make very little sense to me for two reasons:

1. The idea that Lucas had Vader being Anakin planned in the third draft, but then completely dropped it by the fourth draft, is pretty hard to believe because as far as I know, almost nothing about Vader and Anakin actually changed between the third and fourth draft. The only thing that changed was mention of Luke being raised by Anakin as a young kid being removed, but we know that was still Lucas’s intention even after it was removed from the script because Lucas told Brackett in the ESB conferences that Anakin was the one who brought Luke to Owen and Lucas also said in an interview in 1979 “The prequels are about the early life of Luke’s father when Luke was a little boy”. We’ve also got things you mentioned like Anakin being a pilot and being killed by Vader being mentioned in the fourth draft for the first time, but I think that’s likely just a result of Lucas deciding Luke shouldn’t know his father is a Jedi and Ben telling Luke about him, which was decided by a random note as shown in Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars book.

2. I found a video showing a clip where Kurtz is interviewed where he mentions that he doesn’t believe Vader was always intended as Luke’s father, and he mentions nothing about a “Anakin killed Vader” version of the twist at all. It’s shown in the youtube video “how to watch Star Wars: the George Lucas sequel trilogy” by Rick Worley at 1:40:51

Hi, Avimo! I’d be interested in your research!

1. I agree totally with you and your take regarding Marcia Lucas.

2. Whether or not Kurtz said what was in that quote I found via a google search - which btw I’m no longer able to find - I think that the idea did exist as a rumor circa 1980, 1981. I also happen to think it’s possible that the rumor was generated by a leak from LFL to the sci-fi/fantasy community. Meaning, I think there was an original version of the twist planned by Lucas during the writing of the first film*, STAR WARS(ANH). The leak may have been deliberate obfuscation or a genuine, unplanned leak. Like you, I also find it hard to believe that the twist would have been completely dropped by Lucas around the time of writing the fourth draft, after having been part of the submerged deep story underlying the third draft. I think that the statement “we find out who Darth Vader is at the end of the second book (sequel)” by Lucas back in December of 1975 during a production/story meeting, is referencing a twist of some kind involving Vader being Luke’s father or tied to him in some way, rather than part of the Vader-killed-Luke’s father version which anyway didn’t appear in script form until several months (almost three) after this December 1975 statement from Lucas.

• *Iow, the twist was NOT invented ex-nihilo during the writing for EMPIRE(ESB), despite what offical LFL ‘orthodox’ and the ‘general consensus’ among fans and moviegoers say. The original Vader-father twist was either: Option A - Vader was a clone of Luke’s father, and killed Luke’s father due to believing that he (Vader) was the ‘real deal’, and because of that genuine belief, he told Luke in EMPIRE that he’s his father. Option B - Vader had an affair with Annikin/Anakin’s wife, Annikin really did die, and thus Vader was Luke’s true biological father. Option C - Luke’s father Annikin killed the first, original Darth Vader sometime during the back-story, then took on his identity and became the Darth Vader we know in the original trilogy. This version of Vader would then try to make things right at the end of EMPIRE or beginning of JEDI, asking Luke to help him. In this version, he became Vader for more noble reasons. edit: The final, ‘canonical’ version of the twist revealed in ROTJ, was actually created/written during the development and scripting phase of JEDI, not for that of EMPIRE. Edit: I’ve noticed that in the 1983 documentary “From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga”, Lucas only said that Vader being Luke’s father and the helmet/mask coming off were part of the ‘original story’ that he had already as subtext of the first film ANH, but he doesn’t say that the redemption angle for Vader was part of that story. I find that omission a little interesting.

3. I watched the Rick Worley video. To me, Kurtz is giving the ‘agnostic’, producer and audience orientated ‘surface’ perspective of the first film, where Vader being the father is not an obvious part of the surface plot. I think that came from a Q&A session Kurtz did around 2004 or so. I agree with Worley that Kurtz’s mid/late 90’s-early 2000’s narrative about Lucas ‘tossing’ out the ‘original outline’ that was written for JEDI doesn’t make sense, as Kurtz wouldn’t have been around when Lucas wrote his story treatments and drafts for JEDI in late 1980/early 1981. So that would leave the time-frame of when EMPIRE was in development and production, an implication which would raise more questions - Lucas already having an outline for JEDI while EMPIRE was not even half-way finished(?).

IF I am right about the existence of the original twist(s) that may have been planned by Lucas - starting with SW and only being modified or completely changed with ROTJ - then it wouldn’t be out of bounds in my opinion to surmise that perhaps upon Kurtz leaving LFL, Kurtz and Lucas made a mutual agreement never to openly discuss this particular matter, except only in what can be described as contradictory accounts that are only half-truths at best.

Highly interesting theories regarding Annakin/Vader’s backstory! I’m particularly curious about your Options A and B, as I’ve never heard of them before. Are these pure conjecture on your part or they based on any concrete evidence/clue/hint/etc.? If the latter, I’d love to hear more!

Pure conjecture on my part, especially the Option B ‘The Affair’ twist version. That was internet speculation from TF.N that I picked up from another poster as a plausible option, especially since the ‘soap opera’ feel of it seemed to match with Lucas saying in that same December 1975 quote*, “the third film/book will be about the soap opera of the Skywalker family” Option A ‘The Clone’ version is/was conjecture, but it was also actual rumored speculation after EMPIRE came out, 1980-1981-1982, until JEDI said otherwise. And in my opinion, it made sense out of Lucas’ post-release STAR WARS:ANH statements that Ben supposedly had two Jedi students, Luke’s father (‘Annikin’) and Vader. Even the film itself showed Vader to be an ace pilot, kind of weird that he had the same abilities as the Jedi that he had supposedly killed. Maybe the Jedi recruited or created clones of their own, and Annikin’s clone - Vader - became unstable. There was the matter of both characters shared history with Ben Kenobi, both wielding near-identical lightsabers, and both being excellent pilots. I thought rather than Lucas somehow not realizing how Vader could come off as sort of a ‘doppleganger’ of Luke’s father, perhaps this was sign-posting the submerged underlying truth about Vader’s secret(or not) identity. This redundancy vanishes when one realizes that it might have been intended as misdirection, or, to point towards the real underlying story - Vader was a clone of Luke’s father (alternatively, the twist Options B or C). The misdirection would imho be where Lucas implied in post-release 1977 interviews that Ben had simultaneously trained the two Jedi (Annikin and Vader).

*the quote where he said that in the second ‘book’ or film/the sequel, “we find out who Darth Vader is”

I take it though that you’d heard of Option C ‘The Identity Switch’ version, then? Where Annikin kills the original Darth Vader then takes his identity?

Avimo said:

Very cool stuff! I love studying the history of SW and the “when was Vader made Luke’s father” debate is one of my favorite topics to research. I’ve done a lot of analysis on the topic (based off of both the discoveries of other people, a few discoveries I’ve made myself, and the confirmed documented SW history like the Lucasfilm books and the public older drafts) and as of now I personally believe that Lucas is genuinely telling the complete truth that he had the Vader=Anakin twist fully conceived in its entirety by the third draft of ANH and just briefly considered scrapping it during ESB’s writing. I’ve gathered a lot of evidence to back this up, which I’d be happy to share with you guys if you’re interested.

I highly doubt Marcia’s claim is real. In that same interview that she said that, she said so many other things about SW’s history and her role in stuff that’s just blatantly not true; An example includes her saying “I never even knew there were two stories” which is obvious nonsense because the second ANH draft ends with a sequel teaser, Lucas said to Foster in December 1975 he planned two sequels and a prequel, and Mark Hamill said the actors were all signed on for a trilogy and Lucas mentioned an Episode IX to him in 1976, and I highly doubt George wouldn’t have told his own wife and editor about these plans especially since he already asked her for help with story related stuff multiple times before. Other examples include Marcia saying she suggested to Lucas to cut the Luke and Biggs scenes when Rinzler’s book says Marcia fought to keep them in, Marcia saying the idea of killing Obi-Wan was entirely hers when George said in a 1977 interview (which is years before the divorce so there’s no bias there) that he was already considering the idea of killing Obi-Wan at the time Marcia suggested it, and more. So for now I’m taking Marcia’s claim with a grain of salt because it doesn’t seem like Marcia’s recollection of SW’s history in general is very accurate or unbiased.

@Tosche Station, I’ve read through your posts on both here and the Jedi Council forums on this topic, and I just want to say I really admire your research and theories; you’ve come up with some fantastic and really well ideas and takes on this topic that I never even thought of. I would like to know though where this “google search link” where you found this alleged Kurtz quote is located; I copied and pasted the contents of your quote into Google multiple times and nothing came up. It sounds very intriguing and I’m curious to see it myself. But even if it’s real, it seems to make very little sense to me for two reasons:

1. The idea that Lucas had Vader being Anakin planned in the third draft, but then completely dropped it by the fourth draft, is pretty hard to believe because as far as I know, almost nothing about Vader and Anakin actually changed between the third and fourth draft. The only thing that changed was mention of Luke being raised by Anakin as a young kid being removed, but we know that was still Lucas’s intention even after it was removed from the script because Lucas told Brackett in the ESB conferences that Anakin was the one who brought Luke to Owen and Lucas also said in an interview in 1979 “The prequels are about the early life of Luke’s father when Luke was a little boy”. We’ve also got things you mentioned like Anakin being a pilot and being killed by Vader being mentioned in the fourth draft for the first time, but I think that’s likely just a result of Lucas deciding Luke shouldn’t know his father is a Jedi and Ben telling Luke about him, which was decided by a random note as shown in Rinzler’s Making of Star Wars book.

2. I found a video showing a clip where Kurtz is interviewed where he mentions that he doesn’t believe Vader was always intended as Luke’s father, and he mentions nothing about a “Anakin killed Vader” version of the twist at all. It’s shown in the youtube video “how to watch Star Wars: the George Lucas sequel trilogy” by Rick Worley at 1:40:51

Hi, Avimo! I’d be interested in your research!

1. I agree totally with you and your take regarding Marcia Lucas.

2. Whether or not Kurtz said what was in that quote I found via a google search - which btw I’m no longer able to find - I think that the idea did exist as a rumor circa 1980, 1981. I also happen to think it’s possible that the rumor was generated by a leak from LFL to the sci-fi/fantasy community. Meaning, I think there was an original version of the twist planned by Lucas during the writing of the first film*, STAR WARS(ANH). The leak may have been deliberate obfuscation or a genuine, unplanned leak. Like you, I also find it hard to believe that the twist would have been completely dropped by Lucas around the time of writing the fourth draft, after having been part of the submerged deep story underlying the third draft. I think that the “we find out who Darth Vader is at the end of the second book (sequel)” statement by Lucas back in December of 1975 during a production/story meeting, is referencing a twist of some kind involving Vader being Luke’s father or tied to him in some way, rather than part of the Vader-killed-Luke’s father version which anyway didn’t appear in script form until several months (almost three) after this December 1975 statement from Lucas.

• *Iow, the twist was NOT invented ex-nihilo during the writing for EMPIRE(ESB), despite what offical LFL ‘orthodox’ and the ‘general consensus’ among fans and moviegoers say. The original Vader-father twist was either: Option A - Vader was a clone of Luke’s father, and killed Luke’s father due to believing that he (Vader) was the ‘real deal’, and because of that genuine belief, he told Luke in EMPIRE that he’s his father. Option B - Vader had an affair with Annikin/Anakin’s wife, Annikin really did die, and thus Vader was Luke’s true biological father. Option C - Luke’s father Annikin killed the first, original Darth Vader sometime during the back-story, then took on his identity and became the Darth Vader we know in the original trilogy. This version of Vader would then try to make things right at the end of EMPIRE or beginning of JEDI, asking Luke to help him. In this version, he became Vader for more noble reasons. edit: The final, ‘canonical’ version of the twist revealed in ROTJ, was actually created/written during the development and scripting phase of JEDI, not for that of EMPIRE. Edit: I’ve noticed that in the 1983 documentary “From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga”, Lucas only said that Vader being Luke’s father and the helmet/mask coming off were part of the ‘original story’ that he had already as subtext of the first film ANH, but he doesn’t say that the redemption angle for Vader was part of that story. I find that omission a little interesting.

3. I watched the Rick Worley video. To me, Kurtz is giving the ‘agnostic’, producer and audience orientated ‘surface’ perspective of the first film, where Vader being the father is not an obvious part of the surface plot. I think that came from a Q&A session Kurtz did around 2004 or so. I agree with Worley that Kurtz’s mid/late 90’s-early 2000’s narrative about Lucas ‘tossing’ out the ‘original outline’ that was written for JEDI doesn’t make sense, as Kurtz wouldn’t have been around when Lucas wrote his story treatments and drafts for JEDI in late 1980/early 1981. So that would leave the time-frame of when EMPIRE was in development and production, an implication which would raise more questions - Lucas already having an outline for JEDI while EMPIRE was not even half-way finished(?).

IF I am right about the existence of the original twist(s) that may have been planned by Lucas - starting with SW and only being modified or completely changed with ROTJ - then it wouldn’t be out of bounds in my opinion to surmise that perhaps upon Kurtz leaving LFL, Kurtz and Lucas made a mutual agreement never to openly discuss this particular matter, except only in what can be described as contradictory accounts that are only half-truths at best.

patrickmollohan said:

Personally, I’m more inclined to believe Marcia Lucas here.

2012 is rather late to spring that kind of anecdote though, wouldn’t you say? In order to add ‘suspense’ to the story/plot , all Lucas would need is Vader to claim to be Luke’s father. It doesn’t have to be true on a deep-below-the-surface story level. Huyck could make the suggestion, of course: “hey, have Vader claim to be Luke’s father”. But Huyck saying “make Vader Luke’s father” is overreaching. EMPIRE (ESB) is transitional either way - it is not the origin point of the twist. The twist either originated with JEDI, or with the first film, STAR WARS (ANH). Any honest assessment of EMPIRE not colored by hindsight, would see that it’s not conclusive either way in isolation (whether the film or the various scripts/drafts).

patrickmollohan said:

It really wouldn’t make sense to invent the whole “from a certain point of view” retcon if Vader was always supposed to be Luke’s father.

Actually, it does, for several reasons. The “certain point of view” came about because: One, Kasdan thought that Lucas needed to give the audience an in-story reason why Obi-Wan told Luke what he did in the first film, not because he (Lucas) needed to give the audience a reason why he (Lucas) told them one thing and not another. Two, because come JEDI, the premise for the Father Vader twist had changed: this is where Luke says that there’s still good in Vader. I don’t think this was in the first two drafts that were written solely by Lucas. Three, “He betrayed and murdered your father” was a cover-story from the get go. One, it appears rather late in the story/scriptwriting process for STAR WARS - it’s in the very last draft. That and the fact that this element appears some almost three months AFTER Lucas told collaborators in a late December 1975 meeting: “in the next film/story (the sequel), the audience will find out who Darth Vader is”. This last bit, is likely pointing to the earlier version* and origin point of the twist, that Luke’s father had taken on the identity of Darth Vader (whom he had killed) for noble intentions perhaps, but which had consequences later on. This is very aligned with 1970’s Lucas and Kurtz and their mutual admiration for Kurosawa’s films and the moral message that accompanied them. With JEDI, Lucas changed this to: Anakin (Luke’s father) had turned to the dark side. And here too, likely Lucas added the redemption subplot, which is largely based on Luke’s somewhat baffling retroactive perception of Vader’s behavior and actions in the previous film that lead him to believe that Vader was acting out of some ‘buried’ goodness. Essentially, Luke - and Lucas - was retconning EMPIRE’s Vader. In the 1983 “From Star Wars to Jedi” documentary, Lucas only claims that Vader being Luke’s father, and the helmet coming off were part of ‘the original story’. He doesn’t say that the redemption part was part of that story originally.

*the subplot from the PT about Dooku and Anakin replacing him are likely echoes of this older idea. Same with the idea Lucas had for the second draft of TPM, where Obi-Wan the master is actually killed, and his student Qui-Gon takes on his name and identity thereafter.

oojason said:

Tosche Station said:

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

Fair play to you, TS. Not many would admit that. 👍

 

Tosche Station said:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

 
Unfortunately the above quote found online by TS (via a ‘google search’) does NOT exist in ‘Star Wars Insider #138, 2011’.

Both TS and myself have had a thorough look through Issue #138 of SW Insider (which is actually the issue for January 2013 - and NOT 2011) - and there is no quote or mention of Gary Kurtz in that issue.

I’ve had a look through adjoining issues, the 2011 issues - also online in general - and cannot find such a quote from Gary Kurtz.

It does NOT look like the quote is actually from Gary Kurtz - or exists outside of what TS found in that google search.
 

If anyone does know of this quote - and where is originates from - please post it up in here. Thanks, as always. 👍

 

September Edit: as confirmed by Tosche Station - the above quote attributed to Gary Kurtz is indeed a fake.

Kurtz made no such statement - with people now trying to invent online quotes for Gary Kurtz to try and re-write film history.
 

 
 

---

 
 

For anyone interested in when Vader was retconned to become Luke’s father… these may be of interest for further info:-

(from multiple sources - mainly consistent and confirmed - including from Lucasfilm high-ups, Marcia Lucas, & JW Rinzler etc)
 

• Category #5 of George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist…

• Emre’s two ‘info & image’ posts on the subject here: link & link - citing JW Rinzler and earlier drafts of scripts.

• The 2019 ‘Star Wars Mythbusting’ twitter thread by Lucasfilm Creative Arts Manager Phil Szostak

• and the Marcia Lucas interview in ‘Icons Uncovered’ documentary where she talks about how and when George retconned Vader to be Luke’s father - whilst writing the 2nd draft of Empire Strikes Back (GL, Marcia, Huyk & Katz were all having dinner).
 

Hi, oojason. I actually didn’t confirm that, per our discussions. I said that it would be ironic if the only known quote from Kurtz contradicting that Vader was Luke’s father when STAR WARS was made turned out to not be genuine. I had also said that were fans to try and re-write history via a ‘pro-Lucas’ quote, they’d have someone affiliated with the production of the film (Kurtz or whomever associated) say that “Oh yeah, Lucas told us Vader was Luke’s father but to keep quiet about it”. I no longer buy the notion that Lucas would have had this idea for STAR WARS then ‘drop’ it for whatever reason(s). But some sort of worry that the original Vader twist had been ‘compromised’ - during the later phases of EMPIRE’s post-production or release - might explain why Lucas changed the premise and some of the ‘scaffolding’ behind the twist to the familiar, ‘canonical’ version come JEDI. And this alternate idea does highlight where 1970’s Lucas and Kurtz were in alignment: the Kurosawa-inspired philosophy concerned with moral choices and their consequences (the how and WHY Luke’s father would have chose to take on the Darth Vader identity). Which harkens back to a known quote of Kurtz (from 1999? early 2000’s?) about what he had preferred that Vader’s plea/appeal to Luke in EMPIRE would have really been centered on: a ‘righting’ of wrongs (paraphrasing).

The Marcia Lucas Katz/Huyck thing doesn’t track at all with any contemporaneous statements from back in the early 1980’s. Had it actually happened, I doubt that biographer Dale Pollock (“Skywalking” 1983) would have failed to notice it. Though I suppose that Huyck ‘joke’ inspiring the twist could sort of serve as a provisional band-aid for those who find the just-so theory that Lucas would have come up with the twist all on his own in 1978 while writing EMPIRE, but fail to come up with it in 1975 when writing STAR WARS, to be on the very low-end of the probability scale. EDIT to add: Marcia was probably not in the know about Lucas’ story meeting in December 29, 1975 with Kurtz, Alan Dean Foster, Lippincott, where he talked about how in the sequel - the second ‘book’, a ‘proto-EMPIRE’ of sorts - that we’d find out who Darth Vader really is.

JadedSkywalker posted:

“I was referring to how Obi-Wan did not lie in Star Wars because Darth Vader killed Luke’s father. A young Jedi named Darth Vader who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil. Helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, he betrayed and murdered your father.”

But this comes from viewing character exposition dialogue like Obi-Wan’s (Ben’s) in STAR WARS (ANH) as though it were documentary-level historical truth instead of the narrative constructs that they were. The fact that none of the characters mention Luke’s father by his given name in the film (and the next one) was a deliberate narrative choice, for example.

JadedSkywalker said:

I was referring to how Obi-Wan did not lie in Star Wars because Darth Vader killed Luke’s father. A young Jedi named Darth Vader who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil. Helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, he betrayed and murdered your father.

Now it’s just Kenobi lies all the time. Certain point of view. OH I Never owned a droid, and Yoda was my master wink wink. Except for this guy Gui-Gon. In the prequel he has r4. He does own a droid.

And Anakin never said a thing about wanting his kid to have that Lightsaber he did not even know about Luke’s existence. He knew he a child by Padme that died with her in childbirth. Not Twins.

The thing with the first film (STAR WARS) is that there really isn’t any in-universe reason why Obi-Wan had to tell Luke the truth right then and there. There’s what’s called the ‘Iceberg Theory’ of storytelling, where the author knows things that some of the characters and the audience do not. Just prior to writing the fourth draft(s), Lucas talked about in the next ‘book’ or sequel, the audience would find out who Darth Vader is. It wouldn’t make sense for him to then discard that plan. Obfuscation was baked right into the first film. Lucas put subtle clues into the film to plant the seeds for the future reveal.

OutboundFlight said:

Had ROTJ stuck to its guns with the original script, either Han’s death or Luke walking away to focus on the Jedi would have made a far stronger conclusion to the triangle.

There’s no evidence of this ‘original script’ existing, other than as deliberate obfuscation cooked-up during EMPIRE to throw the public off-track in regards to where the story was ultimately heading.

JadedSkywalker said:

Superweapon VII said:

As with ROTJ in general, I’d love to discard it, but I begrudgingly accept it if only because so much of the post-ROTJ EU I love can’t exist without it.

A very wise and fair point. But I like the Luke and Leia dynamic. They didn’t need to end up together no one is suggesting that it just seems incredibly lazy on Lucas’s part.

Like the father Vader thing in Empire, it wasn’t well thought out. Lucas just sloppily retcons things and makes things up as he goes. He can pretend omniscience and it was always planned. It’s in the purview of the author to play god, and make their story however they want it. He mostly got away with it on the originals, but ran into problems on the prequels.

What did you find not well thought out about the father Vader thing? Luke living on Tatooine with the Lars? Even the original film in isolation, never established that Owen was Luke’s biological paternal uncle (or maternal). This includes supplemental material, where Lucas as early as 1976 and 1977 would give backstory details. Likely both Lucas AND Kurtz had both told the truth, though held back telling the whole story. Vader was either: Luke’s father Annikin who had killed the genuine Darth Vader during the backstory then took his identity (a ‘leaked’ idea, that may or may not originate with Kurtz, where Kurtz said Lucas told him this idea for the first film), or that Vader wasn’t a Skywalker or even a relative, but Luke was his (illegitimate) son all the same. Possibly Lucas didn’t lock down the Vader father twist to the well known version that we all know until as late as the writing process for JEDI (ROTJ), not EMPIRE (ESB), as we’re often told.

You’d have a lot more people with issues if there wasn’t a cult of personality surrounding the perfection of Lucas canon and by the Extension the EU. It’s all perfect and there are no issues with continuity. That is the opinion of the religious devoted to their sacred texts. But everything Disney does is not canon and can’t be worthwhile because Lucas sold the farm. I sort of halfway believe in the control of the author over their own works, or an established consistent world within the framework of their secondary universe. But I dislike the idea of canon because it reminds me of the Gospel tradition and how we got our New Testament. Which gospels are canon. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Gospel of Peter had a talking cross. That wouldn’t have helped it’s inclusion in the canon I would wager.

As far as the whole Leia as sister thing, the problem is that in ROTJ, her being Luke’s sister seems to be of no consequence to the larger plot of the film. She goes on being a Rebel leader likely the same as if she weren’t Luke’s sister. Her also being Vader’s daughter doesn’t seem to register to her at all. She merely sees Luke being Vader’s son as a cause for her to fear for Luke’s safety. That being said, many here - those who lament this aspect of ROTJ but think ESB was THE absolute best Star Wars film - seem to not notice that EMPIRE (ESB) had already marginalized Leia’s character. The whole political side to her character in the first film is gone. Her status as a leader of the Rebellion is pretty muted. Even her established adversarial relationship with Vader from the first film is mostly gone. The plot of the film doesn’t seem fit to take advantage of that or advance it any further (I know someone will bring up the wordless glance between Leia and Vader in the Carbon Freeze Chamber). Leia in EMPIRE was mostly about her feelings for Han on the one hand, and Luke on the other.

CitizenofBespin said:

Whatever path they took to eventually land on the most famous twist in cinematic history, the idea was not original to Lucas or Kurtz. It almost certainly was inspired by the same twist in DUNE, the novel, where Paul Atreides finds out he is the grandson of the primary villain, Vladimir Harkonnen. And so many other aspects of Star Wars seem lifted or inspired by Dune, I think it’s fairly obvious at this point, if Lucas was wrestling with anything about Vader’s backstory, it was how much ‘on the nose’ he could be without looking like he actually ripped it off directly from Dune.

Well, the dropped story idea* that’s attributed to a Kurtz quote (where Kurtz says that Lucas told him this circa late 1975) sounds nothing like the Dune subplot. So there’s that.

*Annikin/Anakin/Luke’s father sometime during the back-story kills Darth Vader/Sith Knight then takes on Darth’s identity, more of a ‘Darth is not who you think he is’ story. Then the sequel (“book two”) would have revealed who he really was. Presumably Vader wouldn’t have necessarily himself revealed his identity to Luke like he does in ESB - perhaps a still in the flesh Ben Kenobi would have discovered the truth in the second one.

Dagenspear said:

oojason said:

Nothing new, unfortunately… as discussed here (if you’d like to read more about it); a few people from around that post SW’77 time were guessing, spit-balling, and throwing out their theories for what could be next for ‘Star Wars II’…

• '78 interview with David Prowse [spoilers] - he reveals Vader is Luke’s father - a 2010 thread.
 

Does this confirm anything?

Not really, I’m afraid. I don’t think Prowse was in the loop about the story discussions that took place in late December 1975 involving Lucas, Kurtz, Foster, and Lippincott. I’m pretty sure the “we find out who Darth Vader is in the second book” ties back to the ultimately dropped back-story idea that Kurtz supposedly heard from Lucas (that Kurtz admits was never written down, only verbally discussed).

"Whilst the original ideas for ROTJ are fun I do kind of feel myself understanding Lucas and the writer’s choice to go with what we got which I don’t think was just low risk and looking to sell Ewok teddies.

The second DS I think not only makes sense in universe with the reasons for the original explained in ANH but I think its an effective shorthand, we don’t need masses of exposition or a complex plot for the ROTJ climate which potentially could get in the way of the character drama.

The Ewoks and Han not dying I kind of suspect was Lucas wanting their to be a representation of “good” which Luke was fighting for. If he’d just wanted a simple heroic story then he would have outlined one for Luke yet what we get is outside of the speeder hijinx a pretty dark one, actually maybe darker than ESB. I suspect Lucas’s feeling was that was really the dramatic heart of the film and we didn’t need MORE growing darkness by having Han die, instead that plot represents goodness and which feeds into why Luke gets so angry at Vader’s threat to turn Leia."

Above is what a poster on another Star Wars forum said. Pretty much sums it up for me.

Edit to add:
For those who found the Jabba rescue subplot a bit iffy, it might interest you to know that Rinzler’s take on George’s early rough drafts that he wrote up for ROTJ (preceded by a story treatment written in late fall of 1980), were that the Jabba’s Palace rescue ‘plan’ was a LOT more coherent that the one that went into the film (the script being the result of Kasdan, Lucas, Marquand, and Kazanjian hashing out the story during meetings in the summer of 1981). In addition, he thought that Vader character-wise was more consistent with his Empire (ESB) persona. Han flies the Millenium Falcon, not Lando, etc.

What this poster said on another Star Wars forum about sums it up for me with regards to people wanting the ‘darker’, more ‘adult’ ROTJ that Kurtz allude to:

**"Whilst the original ideas for ROTJ are fun I do kind of feel myself understanding Lucas and the writer’s choice to go with what we got which I don’t think was just low risk and looking to sell Ewok teddies.

The second DS I think not only makes sense in universe with the reasons for the original explained in ANH but I think its an effective shorthand, we don’t need masses of exposition or a complex plot for the ROTJ climate which potentially could get in the way of the character drama.

The Ewoks and Han not dying I kind of suspect was Lucas wanting their to be a representation of “good” which Luke was fighting for. If he’d just wanted a simple heroic story then he would have outlined one for Luke yet what we get is outside of the speeder hijinx a pretty dark one, actually maybe darker than ESB. I suspect Lucas’s feeling was that was really the dramatic heart of the film and we didn’t need MORE growing darkness by having Han die, instead that plot represents goodness and which feeds into why Luke gets so angry at Vader’s threat to turn Leia."**

• end of quote

CitizenofBespin said:

Whatever path they took to eventually land on the most famous twist in cinematic history, the idea was not original to Lucas or Kurtz. It almost certainly was inspired by the same twist in DUNE, the novel, where Paul Atreides finds out he is the grandson of the primary villain, Vladimir Harkonnen. And so many other aspects of Star Wars seem lifted or inspired by Dune, I think it’s fairly obvious at this point, if Lucas was wrestling with anything about Vader’s backstory, it was how much ‘on the nose’ he could be without looking like he actually ripped it off directly from Dune.

I don’t think Kurtz would have failed to mention Lucas having been inspired by Dune for this particular plot point (even the dropped part) if the above were the case. Kurtz gives credit solely to Lucas for both twists - the earlier dropped one (for ANH), and the one Lucas eventually settled on (circa the second draft of Empire). Plus, Frank Hebert definitely would have called foul against Lucas on this particular element if what you’re saying were true.

Dagenspear said:

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

That, to me, seems twisty for the sake of it. What does it change or really add if Anakin stole Vader’s identity story or character wise or if Vader is a different guy who is Luke’s dad?

Tosche Station said:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

Tosche Station said:

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

Or it’s an alternative take from Kurtz.

However, I did find, though I don’t know too much about it, this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/21/21/5021214ea8807dd151264234afa0276f.jpg

Seemingly an interview with David Prowse before the filming of TESB where Prowse seems to spoil the twist that Vader is Luke’s dad.

I don’t know about it being twisty just for the sake of it, well maybe the ‘Luke is really Vader’s kid, he’s not Skywalker Sr’s son’ concept can be said to be twisty for the sake of it. The Anakin killing Vader then taking Vader’s identity twist perhaps would mean not so much a family bloodline story but more of a ‘Darth Vader is not who you think he is’ type of story. And it does change things, especially if it’s a bit of subterfuge where neither the Sith, Sith Master, The Emperor, or even Ben Kenobi knew the real truth. And, if the story is/was true, Lucas did eventually drop the idea anyway before even beginning to write the final draft of the script. I used to think perhaps Kurtz had an alternate take on the twist, but in the quote(s) he still maintains that the twist that we’re all familiar with didn’t come about until the second draft of Empire (ESB). This would mean that instead of the truth confirming Lucas’s often made claim that Vader was Luke’s father when they made ANH, it would mean that at best, Lucas toyed with a variation of the twist idea before dropping it and going with the Vader-killed-Luke’s father story. An idea which if you think about it, almost sounds like a mirror-reversal or flip of the ‘Anakin-killed-Vader’ idea. One could also say that the twist that Empire brought about was Lucas’ older dropped idea but having been run ‘through the wringer’ of the concept of Vader having killed Luke’s father, where everyone - Sith, Empire, Ben Kenobi were all in the know, but now a literal killing being re-cast as a metaphorical killing (and the ‘certain point of view’ aspect being added in the later drafts written for ROTJ).

Hi all, I thought you’d all find this interesting:

Gary Kurtz:
“When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

So @Barfolomew and @Channel72 were basically right. The paradigm of the Brackett draft of ESB was factually correct as it goes, but also wasn’t telling the whole story: Lucas indeed had an earlier version of the twist when they were making the first film, no less, but it was ultimately dropped. Lucas then came up with the ‘Vader killed Luke’s father’ story for the final script (the Revised fourth draft), and this is what went into film. This notion was still in place
when they started work on Empire. When it came to the second draft (by Lucas alone), Lucas re-worked his earlier dropped idea, and merged the Vader and Annikin(Anakin)Luke’s father characters, and the rest is history.

Straight from Gary Kurtz:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

I want to highlight this also because it pertains to something I think the posters here need to remember when posting their opinions in this thread: Whatever our personal opinions or feelings, facts are facts. I’m saying this applies to most of the past posters in this thread, myself included. I can freely admit when I’m wrong, and I was wrong thinking that Lucas made ANH(STAR WARS 1977) with the intention that Vader was Luke’s father (Annikin), and that Luke and Leia were twin siblings. Gary Kurtz - pertaining to the facts of the matter - is a test-control or verification check on Lucas’s claims, whether as a corroboration of them or a refutation of them.

What’s wild is that this particular idea - unlike the ‘Anakin dead but Vader is Luke’s real dad’ idea or the ‘Vader as clone of Luke’s dad’ ideas - was on-record as actually an idea considered by George Lucas at one time (while ANH was being developed/written, no less). And also that this idea - along with the Vader-is-a-clone-of-Dad idea - was part of a magazine article speculation from a 1981 issue of Fangora magazine. Though I suspect it may have had it’s origins as a genuine leak from LFL - possibly from before Gary Kurtz had departed from the company - rather than just a lucky guess or sheer coincidence.

As far as how things played out in Empire and Jedi:
I think more and more it’s looking to me that with the second draft of ESB (written solely by George) one could say that he did by then have the basic story/plot for Jedi (ROTJ) written - at least as far as the Vader-is-Anakin twist plus maybe even Leia as the sister/Jedi Other hope. I think by then he had not only dropped the ‘Neilith Skwalker’ idea* as Luke’s sister/the Other hope, but he had also dropped his plan** that he (together with Kurtz) had of the saga’s story extending to nine episodes (let alone twelve), and had sort of went back to his end-of-1975 proposal of the saga just going to be three movies only (not counting the prequel back-story episodes).

*see the first draft of ESB by Leigh Brackett
** where the Emperor presumably wouldn’t appear in-person in the story until Episode Nine

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

I agree.

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

JF_Sanderson said:

I wonder if at any point developing Rotj, George considered making Luke into “Luke Vader” and keeping Anakin a separate character than Darth.

You may be on to something there. After all, in both of the drafts of the scripts that George wrote prior to Kasdan coming aboard, Luke’s father is never called Anakin; actually, he’s not named at all (though the name already had existed for quite some time). Also, there’s no “certain point of view” stuff from Kenobi in these drafts either. 😉

Superweapon VII said:

JF_Sanderson said:

I wonder if at any point developing Rotj, George considered making Luke into “Luke Vader” and keeping Anakin a separate character than Darth.

He should’ve.

I used to think so as well. Or rather, that it was possible that that’s what he did (actually, I thought maybe George considered it for ANH and for TESB, but changed it for ROTJ).

In the scenario I’m proposing, they would be two separate characters as well. The difference being that the one who died in the back-story was Vader, rather than Anakin. And Anakin took on the former’s identity. I’m mainly extrapolating and triangulating between Lucas and Kurtz’s statements to get a clearer picture of what I think the original plans were for the OT. And I think ROTJ is when Lucas changed it. I’m aware that the ‘consensus’ view is that Anakin wasn’t Vader/Vader wasn’t Luke’s father until the second draft of TESB, but I think this view has been accepted too uncritically.

edit to add:

There’s also the not so small matter of Lucas telling Alan Dean Foster when the latter was beginning to write ‘Splinter of the Mind’s Eye’ to not delve into Vader’s back-story at all. Keep in mind this was in 1976.

I think the original back-story circa the Third draft of Star Wars was that Annikin (Luke’s father) had actually killed the Sith knight Darth Vader and took his identity - possibly to usurp/infiltrate both the Empire and the Sith organization, and either Ben Kenobi knew or didn’t know this*. With the Revised Fourth draft via Kenobi’s dialogue Lucas reverses this, and this reversal was set-up imho to function in two different ways: a ‘literal’ sense (especially had Star Wars not done so well at the box-office) and a ‘metaphorical sense’, keeping his options open either way. Also, Kenobi become implicitly aware of what happened to Luke’s father and Vader. With Empire (ESB), Lucas either went with the ‘metaphorical’ sense of Vader having ‘killed’ or ‘destroyed’ Luke’s father, or…he decided (at least for the time being) to go back to his ‘original’ idea from the Third draft ('Annikin killed Vader, then ‘became’ Vader). Kurtz at least may have thought Lucas intended to stick with this; see his later remarks on what he thought the original ‘redemption angle’ for Vader vis-a-vis Luke was going to be about. We can only be certain that by ROTJ, Lucas decided on Anakin turning to the dark side and becoming Vader. At least with my theory, Luke’s father and Vader indeed were originally two separate people. The father twist came before Lucas had actually ‘merged’ the two characters. Edit to add: Luke’s father Annikin doesn’t seem to have had the ‘pilot’ aspect added to his character until the Fourth draft, which may indicate he’d already merged them together.

*also keep in mind that in this draft, Ben didn’t seem to be hiding in exile on Utapau (Tatooine), and the Rebel Alliance didn’t seem to know or care that he was there (they don’t seek out his help in this draft)