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6-Nov-2008
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Post
#382555
Topic
Why does the EU hate villains?
Time

xhonzi said:

Ahhh..... post-Modernism.

All your heroes suck.

 I guess you're kind of right.

The New Jedi Order is extremely ambiguous, with mass genocider Kyp Durroon and former Imperial assassin Mara Jade both on the Council.

The Rebellion only succeeded in destabilizing the galaxy in time for it not to be able to marshall a defense against the Vong.

The heroes managed to stop Darth Caedus just as he successfully brought peace to the galaxy.

This thread could just as easily be "Why does the EU Hate Heroes?"

Post
#382500
Topic
Pathetic Prequel dialogue quoted
Time

xhonzi said:

 

But it's sort of a joke.  "ONLY a Sith deals in ABSOLUTES"  Is Obi-Wan a Sith then?  (We're discussing this in the Politics thread right now!)

Let me break it down for you: If he said, "Usually, or at an overwhelming percentage, a one dealing in absolutes is a Sith, but occaisonally he is a Jedi instead." Then the line would be fine.  But since he uses the absolutist language of "Only a Sith..." he was, himself, dealing in absolutes.

 That's really taking it too literally. His statement was a direct response to Anakin's "You're with me or you're my enemy."

Also, given the context,  the question was was Anakin a Sith or a Jedi, not what was Anakin in the context of a near limitless ammount of things that may or may not deal in absolutes.

THAT was the kind of absolute he was dealing with. It's a statement about competing philosophy, not a word game like "This sentence is a lie."

Post
#382491
Topic
Watching The Birth of a Nation
Time

Gaffer Tape said:

So yesterday I rented The Birth of a Nation.  I had long since wanted to see it, and I had seen the beginning of it a few years ago via Google video, but this is the first time I'd watched it in its entirety.  Due to the discussions in the Politics thread, this seems relatively topical, and I'd like to get a discussion started on it.  Right after I watched the film, I wrote down a lengthy review of it, if you will, and I will post it here:

I came home and popped this three-hour epic into my computer.  And... wow.  I'm really glad to have watched it.  From the perspective of a film historian it is fascinating.  I do enjoy silent films.  Seeing some of Griffith's attempts at early visual effects, like the double exposed elements depicting the burning of Atlanta, were quite impressive for 1915.  I also like the way he would tint the film's color to depict the mood.  For example, any scene depicting fire was dyed red.  I assume this was in the original film and not done later.  I mean, it makes sense to me that, since they couldn't film in color, a good alternative would be to dye the film itself to create certain moods.  So some scenes are in blood red, some in blue, some in beige.  Quite interesting. 

There is just so much to say about this film.  But, of course, I shall tread very carefully...  As a work of cinema telling a narrative, I have to say it does a very good job at what it sets out to do.  It actually succeeded in portraying the Ku Klux Klan as defenders of justice, and the main southern family as very sympathetic, while, conversely, making most of the black characters seem evil, amoral, dangerous, perverse, and all around underhanded.  Whether that's at all historically accurate... that's a different matter altogether.  All I'm saying is, that as a story, it works.  Hell, that's the reason it created such an uproar at the time of its release:  because it works.  The people fighting against its release argued that very thing:  that it had the power to influence people that that was the way things really were.

P.S.  There actually is one more thing I want to add.  Again, it's about perspectives.  Here's a good example:  Abraham Lincoln is today seen as a hero (and I should mention that his assassination is depicted in The Birth of a Nation and is seen by the southerners as a terrible tragedy) and champion of race relations.  Any accusations that he's a war criminal and that he suspended habeus corpus and broke the laws of the Constitution are always swept under the rug in order to portray him as a hero and a great American.  Obviously if he had failed, we'd be talking about his faults rather than singing his praises.  But, of course, it stands to mention that Lincoln did not at all want the races to be equal.  Most people do know that, but, again, it's not really talked about because Lincoln is so awesome.  Conversely, when the whole Strom Thurmond/Trent Lott controversy came out a few years ago, it got some people talking at Ole Miss that we should take Lott's name off of the building that's named after him.  First of all, I thought that the "scandal" was totally blown out of proportion based on a flattering comment Lott made at Thurmond's birthday party.  But just because Lott said that Thurmond should have become President doesn't automatically mean Lott's a racist.  And even if it does, it doesn't automatically negate his total value as a human being, although some might argue that it does. 

 I've never seen the entire film, my university film library had a 90 min version. I'm shocked a Blockbuster carried it... but as a former Blockbuster manager, I'd be even more shocked if a clerk knew what it was at all.

Dying old b/w films was an awesome process that people today don't respect (the opening of Wizard of Oz is supposed to be sepia toned, but on some versions they've taken it to straight b/w). Chaney's Phantom of the Opera had some green and red scenes, and the flag in "Battleship Potempkin" was sometimes painstakingly handcolored red, frame by frame... imagine how awesome that must have seemed back then.

It's hard sometimes to seperate the brilliant art from the hateful message, similar to watching "The Triumph of the Will" (I have similar issues with rap music, which both fascinates and repulses me). But there's no denying this film practically invented the genre of narrative film as we know it today.

Trent Lott's an interesting case. Does an off-the-cuff comment about how proud you are that your state voted for Strom Thrumond and his "I Hate Equality" party make one a racist? I wouldn't call it a point in his favor, but it did seem to get a bit out of proportion (as opposed to Joe Wilson saying that Thurmond's half-black daughter should have remained hidden so as not to besmirch Thurmond's good name is a bit harder to dismiss).

But even Strom Thurmond ("There are not enough soldiers in the Union to make us accept the nigra race into our theaters") was not entirely one-sided evil. He was notable for filibustering against civil-rights, but he also was widely praised an an enemy of lynchings and although he kept her in hiding, he financially supported his half-black daughter at the same time he venhemently opposed her rights.

Kind of a rambling response, you threw out a lot of food for thought.

Post
#382462
Topic
STAR WARS: EP V &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW</strong>
Time

Darth Venal said:

TheBoost said:

 

That being said, Adywan adding "Battle of the Heroes" in ANH carried with it emotional resonance because of the purpose of that piece of music (Anakin vs. Obi). But even if Adywan hadn't repeatedly stated there would be no PT music in ESB:R, I still can't think of any point that a PT theme could be added into ESB that would add to the film.

Well, that's also how some of us felt about putting PT music in A New Hope: Revisted, so I'm very happy he's not doing it for Empire: Revisited. And I'm with you, I think the music for the prequels at times is incredibly good, but my great objection to it being placed in the OT is not a judgment of its quality. It's a judgment of its suitability, and it doesn't work.

True.

But whether you dug "Battle of Heroes" in ANH:R or not (I'm of mixed feelings), at the very least objectiviely we can agree that the meaning of that music as part of a film score (echoing Anakin/Obi's first fight) is being intentionally echoed in its new use.

I can't think of any moment in ESB where the meaning of a motif from the PT would make dramatic sense.

Post
#382454
Topic
STAR WARS: EP V &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW</strong>
Time

Let me say this. I love the PT scores.

I think they are excellent pieces of work, and as music goes I would put them up there with Williams work on the OT and his other iconic film work.

I think they are much maligned because there were fewer great moments in the PT for us to assosiate with the music, as well as lots of reuse of musical themes lessening the impact of fine peices ("Duel of the Fates" is a masterpiece, and having it during Anakin's "Easy Rider" moment in AOTC and the Palpy/Yoda cartoon show in ROTS was simply awful). The music is also on an intentionally grander scale, because the films themselves are a grander scale than the OT.

That being said, Adywan adding "Battle of the Heroes" in ANH carried with it emotional resonance because of the purpose of that piece of music (Anakin vs. Obi). But even if Adywan hadn't repeatedly stated there would be no PT music in ESB:R, I still can't think of any point that a PT theme could be added into ESB that would add to the film.

Post
#381974
Topic
clone wars season II
Time

Vaderisnothayden said:

Gaffer Tape said:

That's not saying I haven't enjoyed EU, but if you honestly think it's anything more than a marketing push, you're seriously deluding yourselves.

 "but if you honestly think it's anything more than a marketing push, you're seriously deluding yourselves."

Yep. That's all the EU is.

 I don't follow. If you enjoy it, how is it any different than any other entertainment venture out there competing for your dollar? If George Lucas slavishly followed every idea laid out in every novel, comic, and RPG supplement, would that somehow make it NOT a 'marketing push?'

Would ROTS have been one ounce better if it was more closely tied to the adventures of Jangotat, or the BattleStar Space Medics? Would the new Clone Wars be any more enjoyable is the prodcucers made sure it tied in better with the 1970's newspaper strip?

What would be the product Lucasfilm could produce that is somehow NOT a marketing push?

Post
#381696
Topic
Info &amp; Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist
Time

I was reminicing about Rebel Assualt today, and started thinking. Could any elements from the full motion videos in Rebel Assault 2 be used to beef up the battle of Endor (Imdarr in the game, but identical to Endor in all respects) or the space battle above Endor. It has lots of shots of pilots in cockpits, and a rebel vs. Scoutrooper sequence on speederbikes.

It was CD-Rom video quality, so not perfect, but perhaps usable somehow. I need to find a copy as I haven't played it in 10 + years.

 

Post
#381693
Topic
clone wars season II
Time

C3PX said:

And I know George never said that what happened in the EU happened, but yet he liscensed out the property and makes money off of it, then turns around and says to all the fans who are giving him money, These stories you are reading never really happened, just silly stuff people make up to make me more rich.

 How about 'just silly stuff people make up because there's an insane demand for it and it makes millions of Star Wars fans happy?'

 

Post
#381692
Topic
Halloween Movies '09 Thread
Time

Last year I made a point to watch every single Dracula movie I could get my hands on.

Dracula with Lugosi

Spanish Dracula

Horror of Dracula with Christopher Lee

Count Dracula with Christopher Lee  (not a Hammer film)

Dracula with Frank Langella

BBC Dracula (terrible)

Dracula 2000

Bram Stoker's Dracula

1970's Nosferatu remake

That was a great weekend. My wife threatened to leave me if I ever made her watch another Dracula movie, but it was a great weekened regardless.

Post
#381551
Topic
Star Wars - Poorly Directed?
Time

TV's Frink said:

skyjedi2005 said:

The casting was as far as i know Anakin in episode 1: Jake Lloyd gave the best screen test

I thought on the EP 1 DVD documentary, one of the other two kids gave better line readings.  But of course it's a matter of opinion, and I don't actually think Jake was that horrible, given the lines he was working with.

 Could any child actor have pulled off all of those "whoops" and "yippies?"

Post
#381495
Topic
What can Be done to save the real original star wars trilogy from 1977-1983?
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

The garbage mattes should not be fixed - they were there in 1977, so "fixing" them is just another alteration.  A film is a snapshot of the time in which it was made, and effects flaws are a part of that.  I really wish the Raiders of the Lost Ark DVD had kept the cobra reflection, too.

 So I guess the crux of a lot of this discussion is WERE the 'garbage mattes' part of the original Star Wars in '77?

I wouldn't know, growing up with a VHS dubbed copy of Star Wars recorded off TV. Not only did I not see garbage mattes, I didn't know 3PO had a silver leg until the SEs came out on the big screen.

If the mattes were a visible part of the original film, I think they should stay.

If they are a result of careless DVD transfer, then I think there's nothing wrong with doing something about them.

Post
#381484
Topic
clone wars season II
Time

Vaderisnothayden said:

You have to remember, Lucas himself doesn't take the canonical status of the EU seriously, so it makes sense that some of his employees would dismiss it too, even if some others are busy promoting it as canon.

As for Splinter itself, it's been counted as canon by Leland Chee, who runs Lucasfilm canon (the "canon" that calls EU canon). So it's as much "canon" as the rest of the EU, whether it fits or not.

 "Splinter" counts as Q-Canon... which is quality.

Even if it flies in the face of a lot of what came later, that was a real fun read, and IMHO really captured the spirit of Star Wars better than the majority of EU from the 90s and on.

Post
#381459
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

RoccondilRinon said:

As just as staunch an atheist, I think you're rather missing the point. It's fiction, more to the point it's fantasy, and the Force is one of the most archetypal fantasy elements in there. It loses a LOT of its character if you reduce it to some technobabble that doesn't actually explain anything. Either explain how these midichlorians enable telekinesis, telepathy, precognition and what-have-you, which would take a whole movie in itself, or don't try to handwave it away and instead embrace its fantastic nature.

 Replace the word 'midichlorians' in the PT with 'fairiy-elf powder' and it readily becomes apparent that it's not biology or science or any attempt at a real kind of explanation. The existence of midichlorians really only serves a plot point so they could do a "force-test" on Anakin's blood. 

It's not technobabble becase knowledge or non-knowledge of the midichlorians has no bearing on the plot or character actions. Anakin never breaks into a lab and takes a syringe full of midichlorians to become more badass, and R2 never reverse the polarity of the midichlorians in order to save the day.

Post
#381378
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

skye1083 said:

I'm sorry to dig this up again but I thought I'd add my two cents to the lightsaber color debate.

My thinking is that the color of a jedi's lightsaber is a way to indicate who taught them as a padawan. So Luke has green because Yoda has green. Anakin blue because Obiwan has blue. Granted Qui Gon's is green but since he's a more open minded Jedi, he would want his students to decide for themselves. Someone would have to add more purple sabers to show who Windu taught. So there you go -  tradition without making it visually dull to watch or turning it into KoToR.

If you want to be really radical about it, make Qui Gon's red, as kind of a visual protest against the idea that color could really indicate a jedi's morality. Since Anakin could kill children without switching from blue, it could be a way to show how gray things were during this time period. I don't think any one will actually do this since it would be very confusing to the casual viewer. But these fan edits aren't really for casual fans.

Honestly, I can understand the argument of the old order insisting that everyone have blue, but would Luke care if everyone had green? I figure he just wanted to distance himself from his father, past and present.

 At this point it just becomes a game of 'make up a random explanation."

There is not a single line of dialog or plot point in either trilogy to give the impression that lightsaber color is particuarly important, save the implication that baddies have red (although that's not important enough for Anakin/Vader to make a point of trading his blue saber in).

Consequently, one can say anything they want about lightsaber colors, and any arguments carries just about the same weight as any other, since it's all based on nothing.

My understanding was it was meant to be a simple blue/good red/bad dynamic in the OT, but they needed a green lightsaber to show up in exterior fights against the sky in ROTJ, and in the PT Lucas just didn't give a damn, and let Jackson have a purple lightsaber for no reason, senind a million fanboys into seizures to come up with various explanations.

Post
#381377
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

skye1083 said:

I'm sorry to dig this up again but I thought I'd add my two cents to the lightsaber color debate.

My thinking is that the color of a jedi's lightsaber is a way to indicate who taught them as a padawan. So Luke has green because Yoda has green. Anakin blue because Obiwan has blue. Granted Qui Gon's is green but since he's a more open minded Jedi, he would want his students to decide for themselves. Someone would have to add more purple sabers to show who Windu taught. So there you go -  tradition without making it visually dull to watch or turning it into KoToR.

If you want to be really radical about it, make Qui Gon's red, as kind of a visual protest against the idea that color could really indicate a jedi's morality. Since Anakin could kill children without switching from blue, it could be a way to show how gray things were during this time period. I don't think any one will actually do this since it would be very confusing to the casual viewer. But these fan edits aren't really for casual fans.

Honestly, I can understand the argument of the old order insisting that everyone have blue, but would Luke care if everyone had green? I figure he just wanted to distance himself from his father, past and present.

 At this point it just becomes a game of 'make up a random explanation."

There is not a single line of dialog or plot point in either trilogy to give the impression that lightsaber color is particuarly important, save the implication that baddies have red (although that's not important enough for Anakin/Vader to make a point of trading his blue saber in).

Consequently, one can say anything they want about lightsaber colors, and any arguments carries just about the same weight as any other, since it's all based on nothing.

My understanding was it was meant to be a simple blue/good red/bad dynamic in the OT, but they needed a green lightsaber to show up in exterior fights against the sky in ROTJ, and in the PT Lucas just didn't give a damn, and let Jackson have a purple lightsaber for no reason, senind a million fanboys into seizures to come up with various explanations.

Post
#381351
Topic
STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 <strong>REVISITED</strong> ADYWAN *<em>1080p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION</em>
Time

Sat and shared "SW:R" with another pal last night. As seems to be the case, he didn't notice most of the changes, beleiveing it had always looked that good.

He did notice, and I quote "A lot of the dumb crap" was cut (meaning the SE additions, especially in Mos Eisely). During the Obi/Darth fight he asked, "He made this like, more bad ass, right?"

Interestingly, the thing that stood out most to him was the missing last shot of Tarkin. He instantly reacted to that, with "Hey! Where's Peter Cushing!?" as the DS blew up. It was the only change he mentioned that he didn't seem to care for.