TheBoost

In ESB what the Force could do was still faily unclear. I just figured it was The Force.

Vaderisnothayden said:

 There are other reasons for canon policies other than pleasing fans or making money. Such as pleasing the people in Lucasfilm who are doing it and keeping internal consistency in the fiction.

 

Even if the canon policy was there to please fans, that's no reason while all fans should love it.

 If you genuninly think that the canon policy exists for the benefit of the people who make the canon policy, (??)why even deign to acknowledge it.

Star Wars is an entertainment property. Every single aspect of it exists to please fans, and there's no reason that all fans should love any part of it.

thecolorsblend said:

TheBoost said:

The idea of canon only exists to please a certain sort of fan. Lucasfilm would make just as much money off the franchise if they discounted the idea entirely, like Star Trek does.

 I have to laugh that you cited Superman comics as I'm a bit of a junkie.

The "rules" are different for comics and like properties.  Their realities are far more elastic, likely given their longevity.

Star Wars, however, is a movie.  Nothing else.  When you say "Star Wars", 99% of people will think of something tied directly back to the films.  The "reality" of Star Wars is much narrower.  It exists in a different kind of medium with different rules.  Comics adaptations (X-Men movies, The Dark Knight, et al) do not have to jibe (in terms of continuity) with the comics.  The rules are different for TV/movie-based properties however. 

 Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate the canon policy does not mean I like the EU. The vast majority of it is poop on a stick.

I accept your point that to the vast majority of people who know "Star Wars" (including people who love it) it is the movies and nothing more. BUT... if we're talking about the EU we can acknowledge that it's a fictional universe thas been added to consistently for over 30 years.

30 years after his creation Superman had been several films with two actors, a TV series, a radio show, and endless comics, and was plainly a cultural icon. And there was no effort AT ALL towards consistency across properties.

Like Superman, I think it would be swell if Star Wars had a seperate continuity for each property.

• Star Wars comics have their own continuity.
• Novels have their own continuity
• Videogames have their own continuity... if they have any at all.
• The films have their own continuity... and all others would obviously be based on them, they way all Superman properties are basically based on the comics.

I think the stories would be better in general if there was less worrying about how to fit the RPG supplement character "Darth Milennial" or obscure plots from the old daily comic-strip into the overarching story. I think more comeplling stories would be told concern about 'canon' weighing less on the creators.

On the other hand, as the policy exists, flawed as I find it, I appreciate that it exists for the fans of the EU. LFL makes an effort to respect that all of their products, even crappy ones like "Battlestar: Space Medics" have fans, and try to not make one property less important than another.

Imagine a world where some dude from LFL liscenscing had never posted on the "Star Wars.com" mesage board any mention of 'canon.'

No "C" "G" "D" levels. Nothing.

I can't guarantee that "Star Wars" would make just as much money without a canon system, but you know what makes a crapload of money with no canon system? The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties.

Even single properties, like the X-Men comics, in the run of one editor might have continuity issues, but no one goes on Marvel.com and says "Well, X-Men #234 page 8 has been lowered from D-Canon to V-Canon."

So, since I'm not convinced that a Star Wars canon policy is in place to somehow increase sales, it must be in place to please a certain sort of fan, the sort of fan who cares about official canon. Its ironic that these sorts of fans are the very ones who get their panties in a bunch about canon.

"Before the Dark Times... before the Empire." -Obi-Wan

"The last remnants of the old republic have been swept away" -Tarkin

These statements are ambiguous enough that the timeline is fairly open.

Obi-Wan was apparently alive to be a Jedi during the good old days. If he was 70, that puts the Empire at maybe 40 years old.

Possible Chronology for an "Old Empire" theory.

• 70 BSW Obi-Wan is born
• 50 BSW Obi-Wan serves as a Jedi Knight, has adventures in The Clone War I
• 40 BSW After the devestation of CW1, the Galactic Empire is founded, a beacon of hope.
• 35 BSW More Clone Wars, and the Empire tightens its grip. Obi meets Anakin during a mission.They serve the still idealistic, but darkening Empire
• 20 BSW The Jedi are all but eliminated as the Purge happens and the Empire keeps gettign worse.
• 1 BSW After losing power for years, the senate is offically disolved

 In this possible scenario, Obi-Wan is personally betrayed by the Empire as opposed to fighting it from the beginning. Dramatically it's worth contomplating.

A New Empire, with a strong government to keep the peace and promote justice. It just goes bad within a decade or so as the Emperor shows his true colors... Palpatine is a Napoleon type.

SPOILER ALERT.

So the 'sequals' to Dune are in fact really sequels to Anderson/Herbert Jr's prequels?!?

What?!!

The "lost outline" for the conclusion to the Dune series Frank Herbert wrote was all about tying up storylines from a series he didn't write? The myseries and dangling plot threads all tied into a backstory not even hinted at?!?

The Bulterian Jihad, that Frank Herbert never described and that only got a few passing mentions in the entirety of the Dune series was in fact the pivotal plot point of the entire fictional universe, and central to the conclusion of everything.

I find that all hard to swallow.

Kevin Anderson needs to make his money, I don't fault the man. It's Brian Herbert who's fisting his father's legacy.

Caddyshack- A comedy.

Caddyshack 2- I don't know what it was, but it wasn't a comedy.

Spiritual Trilogy-

The Orphanage, The Devil's Backbone, Pan's Labrytnth.

All thematically similar, scary, oddly lovely, with two set in orphanages and two set during recent civil wars. No recurring plots or characters, but they would make a perfect boxed set.

Pitch Black- Smal scale, interesting, low-budget Sci-fi horror/thriller with a cool anti-hero and a low-tech sci-fi universe.

Chronicles of Riddick- Sprawling epic set in a high-tech sci-fi universe with legions of generic baddies, superpowered aliens, and the former anti-hero now a prophesised savior of the universe with a complete retcon origin.

thecolorsblend said:

Why is this even an issue?  Because LFL and some of the subsidiaries thereof insist that we fans regard these (largely inferior) offerings as being the prior/ongoing adventures of the movie characters.

The idea of canon only exists to please a certain sort of fan. Lucasfilm would make just as much money off the franchise if they discounted the idea entirely, like Star Trek does.

Look at any other fictional universe that's in the hands of multiple creators, from the Marvel Universe to Zorro. It's totally natural there will be inconsistencies, changes, retcons, and widely varying quality. We're talking about a fictional universe that spreads across hundreds of hours of film, hundreds of thousands of pages of books and comics, and even wierder supplementary materials.

In the early 80s "Superman: The Man of Steel" was a comic that reworked Superman's origin (at the time I didn't know that. I was 7). It was my favorite comic. I understand that a new Superman origin series was published in the early 2000s (Birthright), and "Man of Steel" doesn't "count" anymore. All I can do is shrug my shoulders and re-read a 25 year old comicbook that I like. 

With all these Star Wars writiers fighting for scraps from Lucas's table, the 'canon' idea that somehow gives equal weight to blurbs on a Star Wars CCG card, RPG supplements, and well-written epic novels is bound to have flaws, massive ones, but to the degree canon policies work, (which I don't persoanlyl care for), I respect it, because it's trying to please the fans (who of course, are never pleased).  It has no other purpose.

C3PX said:

TheBoost said:

C3PX said:

Sometimes I think some of you guys forget that NONE of this stuff EVER happened. It is all made up anyway. What difference does it make if Lucas' lackeys tell you it did or didn't happen? All that matters is what you enjoy it.

I do find the idea that if something is 'real' has some bearing on its quality to be confusing.

Then perhaps you misunderstood the point of my post? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say now?

 Apparently my post was unclear. I was totally agreeing with you.

Vaderisnothayden said:

It's self-evident that the eu isn't the real Star Wars and thus shouldn't be considered canon. Sure, some guys at Lucasfilm will tell you certain EU things are canon, but that's just for internal consistency of EU products and for selling stuff.

They wont tell you anything. You need to log onto their forums and ask.

The liscening department at Lucasfilm only has authority if fans give it to them, and the fact we're having this discussion about 'canon' shows we take these glorified bloggers far too seriously.

Let creators create (Lucas, Zahn, Stover, Tarkovsky) and let liscencing departments liscence.

C3PX said:

Why does it matter if it is considered canon or not? If you enjoyed it, then it wasn't a waste of time and brain space.

Sometimes I think some of you guys forget that NONE of this stuff EVER happened. It is all made up anyway. What difference does it make if Lucas' lackeys tell you it did or didn't happen? All that matters is what you enjoy it.

I do find the idea that if something is 'real' has some bearing on its quality to be confusing.

I loved the old Marvel comics, and if they are not 'real canon' according to some glorified blogger Lucasfilm hired to manage their websites and lisecning, that doesn't effect me in the slightest. If "Crimson Jack" gets a mention in the next illustrated Star Wars encyclopedia or not doesn't imporve the stories or detract from them.

I liked "Shadows of the Empire" which I am lead to understand is somehow higher on the canon-train than most of the EU, but that has no influence on me liking it or not.

If George Lucas himself came to me and told me that the "BattleMed: Space Medics" novels from the Clone Wars series were real Star Wars, and intrinsic to his saga, I still wouldn't bother to read them.

That the EU is inconsistent, and contains various levels of canon that may or may not be real Star Wars seems inconsequential to me. That most of the EU is extremely boring, derivitive and just plain not fun is the real reason not to like it.

Stampede said:

 Light on the science and big on scale and action.  Pure escapism and maybe a little cheese on the side.

I'm sure you guys can recommend some to me.

 "Deathstalker" by Simon R. Green.

You don't get any bigger on scale and action, told at a breakneck pace, with great characters, light on the science and just a pleasent hint of cheesiness. An actionpacked epic overflowing with fun ideas, great heroes, loathsome villains, and lots and lots of fighting.

I'm a huge fan of the "Dune" novels.

After reading the first two of Brian Herbert's and Kevin Anderson's 'prequel' novels, I decided I didn't care for them and gave up on the 'EU' of Dune.

Now I'm considering picking up the 'sequels' they wrote, supposedly wrapping up loose ends in line with Frank Herbert's original outline. That would be nice, because some of those loose ends have frustrated me for a decade plus.

Yet I'm wary... since the prequels were so painfully mediocre that the sequels, closer tied to the actual saga, are destined to be worse.

Any thoughts? Anybody read these?

xhonzi said:

 

Am I missing anything?

 The original Marvel "Star Wars."

100+ underratted issues of just sheer swashbuckling fun.

AxiaEuxine said:

 

 Couldn't Vader just walk the next 20 or so feet and use the door on the right of the shot?

doubleofive said:

I like the shots and ideas, but the quality is pretty bad.  Maybe as small elements somewhere, but unless someone can scale it up to 720p (the presumed res of RotJ:R) and it not be obvious, they might not be usable.

What is needed to to up the size of something like that?

And just a thought, but if these are added during the heat of battle, and more fire is added in general, do you suppose added smoke and keeping the shots short might hide the lower quality images?

vaderios said:

Stormtrooper's visible hand

 Is that even an error? I mean, the Stormtroopers ARE just dudes in suits, and they're playing dudes in suits.

Caravan of Courage has a few of these POV shots of Ewoks stabbing at the camera in a very unfriendly manner.

There's been talk of adding fire to the Ewok battle. Well, these dudes from Battle for Endor are ready to get inserted, perhaps with a little more fire added to the background to hide their hut?

Look at this bad Ewok Mofo. Armor, skull necklace, axe. ROTJ needs this dude.

There are a handful of shots of him throwing an axe in CoC, but they all have the dumpy little boy in them. Could he be cut out, or covered in some way?

From Caravan of Courage, this shot has one Ewok violently thrown through the air and slam against another. With a lighting effect to the right, this could be added to ROTJ after any explosion on Endor to up the violence.

ChainsawAsh said:

I'm still very apprehensive about what will happen when Ady gets his hands on them (and ROTJ, for that matter) - I think there's a high risk of a very intense backlash against Ady if he changes "too much" about the prequels/ROTJ.

 "Star Wars" was a perfect film, and the GOUT was like being punched in the nuts.

Adywan took this perfect film, polished the presentationwith minimal interpretation/reworking, and gave us a masterpiece.

Even that parts of ANH:R that people quibble about are less that 2% of the actual product (Battle of the Heroes, electro needle, etc).

OBJECTIVELY, ANH:R is brilliant.

Once Adywan (or any fan editor) starts doing things more subjectively (which seems to be what he's implied his plans are for ROTJ) disagreements will naturally follow. I'm sure though, that even if I disagree with him on many subjective issues, ROTJ:R will be a hoot and a half to watch.

My thought is that perhaps the Jedi don't need any sort of formal organization. That all of them following the Force automatically brings them in alignment.

In my outline for Ep. II, there's a Jedi Conclave, where perhaps 300 Jedi from across the galaxy meet to discuss the Clone Wars, and celebrate one Jedi's acheivement of High Master (achievement, not promotion, as there's no formal organization).

The New High Master (Jedi Thorpe) renounces his status as a warrior, and goes to live a monastic life. This hints at Yoda's existence (and perhaps he gets a name drop), as well as makesa good 'what a bastard' moment when Anakin sells this dude out, giving his location to Palpatine for assasination in Ep. III.