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Taolar

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15-Jun-2006
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10-Aug-2020
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Post
#340834
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
pupil said:

Hi Taolar, I just watched your SOJ edit and I am very very impressed :) Overall, fantastic work, this is the best cut of Superman I and II I have seen yet, you have really utilised the various pieces of Superman II in a really coherent way to extend the first film and make it flow as it originally should have.

Thanks!

As has been mentioned by lorang, the scene where Lex is explaining the missile launch plan to Superman while stood on the big map in his lair is rather rough and jumps about a bit too much, leaving me a little confused. The one thing that stuck out at me as being most confusing is the very first shot of the missile being launched, it seems to appear from nowhere after Lex and Superman are talking.

 

It's actually said immediately after his line "No, by causing the death of innocent people."  Please give it another watching.  I think it fits well there.

What I think would work better is if the dialogue continued from that section into his "Now, you may or may not know..." dialogue, but have the first missle launch shot as the visual while he is giving a voice-over explaining his plan. I feel that this would make a much tighter connection between how Lex's "plan" and the missile launch are connected, as it isn't immediately obvious why this missile shot is there, only later on in Lex's dialogue where he explains how a bomb will sink California, by which point I was a asking "What is the missile about?"  Then the cut between him smashing the map with his cane and the second shot of the missile going off course really can make an impact and make the audience go "Oh, shit!" Do you get what I mean? It's just this first shot of the missile launching seems a little too abrupt at that point in the scene. Mixing it into a voice-over would make more of a connection in the viewers mind, I feel.

 

It would cut time to have the voice over, which I'm all for.  But it doesn't fit in with the established style of the film.  Other than some audio overlap during certain transitions, they don't really do voice overs.  I don't think it'll feel right.

I don't see why the missile launch should be very confusing either.  Earlier Lex holds up the newspaper with the headline "New Missile Launch" as he hints at some nefarious land swindle plan.  And of course there's the scene with Ms. T changing the code in the missile.  When the missile launches, I think most people get that it's related to Lex's plans, even if they don't know exactly how yet.

What you're suggesting would clarify things.  But as an audience member, I like the times when I'm a little bit confused, as long as all is explained by the end.  To me, this is intentionally one of those moments.

It woud also lose a bit of that initial walking around on the map, birds eye view shot, which isn't very good IMO, especially as it looks like Lex is talking to Otis about the plan as SM is out of shot for the first few sentences, and it made me go "Oh, he's talking to SM" when he walked into shot, which again is messy.

I re-watched the scene after you posted these criticisms, to see if I agreed.  And then re-watched the original just to see if maybe I took things in the wrong direction (which has happened in other areas, and I've reverted back to originals several times).  The funny thing is, except for cutting out the map overlay and and "otis-ville" parts of the scene, and cutting the end short (just before otis says "Ooh!" and it fades to california) I didn't change that scene.  It works for me.

How are you going to transition from part 1 to part 2, the couple seconds of Black between them is too much atm, but I guess this is still rough. I'm hoping you lose all relation between part 1 and part 2 and they flow together as one film, I don't want in any way to feel like I'm wathcing two seperate films here.

I hear you.  It will definitely be presented as one movie on a single DVD.  I'm not exactly sure how the transition will look though, as I'm intending to redo the escape sequence.

I def agree with lorang's comment about adding in the arm wrestle with Ursa, if only briefly. It does make a bit more sense why the guy goes through the window, just needs that couple extra seconds to tie that together better, I feel.

If I remember right, I couldn't separate the dialog from the Bee Gee's music, so I scraped it.  But I agree, it is too abrupt.  I'm sure I'll take another look at it and see what I can do.

PS love the Johnny Cash music here instead of the Bee Gees, perfect choice :)

Cool, I got lucky on that one, because I don't know any Johnny Cash songs, and was just searching through some country music that was popular in the late 70's.

I really love how you added the TV footage onto the television of the initial shot of the Whitehouse, that is SO much better than either the silly Mt Rushmore or the footage used in the Donner cut.

Actually, I don't think I did that.  If I remember right, that scene is from the Donner Cut, as is.

That is a much better idea. One thing that bugs me though, but I'm sure you can't do anything about, is that you see the back of the presidents head here, which kinda ruins the fake president when the villians first break into the Whitehouse. If someone was paying enough attention here, they would realise that the bald fake president who kneels before Zod initially wasn't the same guy as in this brief scene. It sticks out at me, but I don't know what you could do about this, just something I wanted to mention.

Yeah, I don't think there's much I can do about that. 

I gotta say, if there is any way you can introduce some Jorel footage back into the scene where SM gets his powers back, I would be very happy to see it. I understand your argument about Jorel lying to SM but to me, this is about a parent protecting their child. He lied to protect him, to try and persuade him not to forsake his powers for Lois. I can accept that. This scene in the Donner cut made me love Superman II so much more as I hated the "mystery" of how SM managed to come back with his powers without any explanation, it just seemed lame to me. When I saw the Donner footage it made me so happy, especially with Jorel using the line "The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son" again, which is so beautiful. This Donner version of this scene really tied it into the first film, and about how SM first loses his adopted father, then, which must be so emotioanlly painful for him, he chooses to to lose his paternal father for the greater good of humanity, which really shows how selfless he has understood he must become to fullfill his destined role on Earth. Sorry to rattle on, but yeah, for me the Donner version of this scene is so amazing that I would be very sad to see it missing from your cut, even though you don't like how Jorel lies to him, I think that from an emotional POV, it makes sense to me and is one of the most significant messages in the whole film. 

I will take everyone's views on this scene into account and take another look at the footage. I don't have anything against such a scene, I just personally don't like how they handled it.  Why wasn't there a tearful goodbye when he originally gave up his powers, and thought that he wouldn't see Jorel again?  And in Superman Returns, not only does Jorel return, but the whole plot revolves around Lex using those crystals.  Like I said, I'll take a look at it again, since people do like the scene.   I just don't see how it would work.

Finally, I really like your new ending, definitely superior to the super-kiss or the spin-back-time endings, both of which I always thought were lame.I do think that your new shot footage needs to be made a little more subtle, it is a bit too forcefull atm, a subtler cut would probs be better, and the sound isn't mixed to well, there is too much room atmos on the voice, it doesn't sound like it is has been recorded in a studio then played back on a TV set, but yeah tweak that and it'll be great. I think the pace is a little bit too fast though in this final section. After a 3 hour film I think it needs to conclude a little slower, giving more time for SM and the audience to contemplate what has happened between him and Lois and where he must go now, it just seems a little rushed, extend it a bit more and it'll work perfectly.

More subtlety with that new footage is in the plans.  I'm not sure I have the footage to stretch the ending out any more though...

Hope all this is constructive, sorry if I'm waffling a bit and dont make loads of sense, hope you get what I mean. Overall, this is gearing up to be the best version of SM I have ever seen, with the final touches completed and a final DVD released, it will be a fan edit masterpiece and you should be very pleased of what you have achieved :)

Thanks again.

Yep, it was constructive.  Thanks for the good words and thoughtful criticism, Pupil!

-T

Post
#340833
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
astromech said:

will definitely give a fuller review once I've finished but these are some comments I'll make for now:

- As with Doctor M, I found the sound to be a little 'up and down' in places. Quite down in the quiet scenes followed by a mega blast in the more lively scenes.

Thanks.  I'll be doing a complete thorough normalization, and probably 5.1 mix for the DVD.

- Otis' blackeye needs to be explained out unless he's a constant klutz...I notice his attempt at changing the codes on the missile is now missing which removes Luthor's punishment of Otis. Any chance of airbrushing it out perhaps?

If I can touch it up without it looking worse, I'll do it.

- I still have a slight problem with young Clark's race against the train - I'm figuring it's to do with the undercranked nature of that scene when originally shot, but it just looks sped up now.

I think no more can be done to fix that scene.  I think it looks good, but I realize it doesn't look perfect.  I didn't speed up any of the footage.  I added some motion blur to his wave to try to make it NOT look sped up.

- Is there any way of matching SII's Brando footage with the footage in SI? He's kinda see through in the first movie but colour in the second. I do accept it would be quite hard to do though seeing as that's the footage restored for the Donner Cut.

I'm going to give it a try, but there's probably not much I can do without having it separated from the background.  And really there are at least three different versions of Hologram Jorel: the original, the extended edition scenes, and the Donner Cut.

Pretty good otherwise so far (have only watched the first part). Pacing, to me, is definitely different, some scenes now run quicker, but will let you know more as I get through the second part of the movie. Good work though...the edit's you've made are pretty seamless...no jarring or noticeable steps.

Great!  Thanks for the input!

-T

Post
#340715
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

I figured that if Lois was starting an article titled "Why the World Doesn't Need Superman", it would just be a draft.  Sort of a dear diary.

But once it becomes apparent Supe is missing, she maybe expands on it, and makes it available for publication.

Perhaps adding the line "First Draft of", "Notes For", or heck "Dear Diary, Why the World Doesn't Need Superman". 
Just thinking out loud now.

At the least I'll put it out as a deleted scene, and anyone who wants to add it back in with Womble can.  :)

 

lorang said:

http://rapidshare.com/files/177485278/Final_matte_.mpg

Hey that turned out pretty good!

astromech said: There does appear to be a pacing change and the colours look a little different but I'm sure I'll work out more stuff as I go along.

I actually haven't done any real color correcting yet, except in some scenes where I switch back and forth between S2 and Donner Cut scenes.  Please let me know what you think when you've seen the whole thing. 

Doctor M said:

Also, and maybe it was the speakers I was listening on (which do have their bad days), but I found myself turning the volume up pretty high for some scenes and down for other.  Just me?

I probably need to manually normalize the soundtrack. I thought it was right, but for the final edit, I'll go through the whole movie watching the output levels.  Thanks.

-T

 

 

 

 

Post
#340631
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

Ok, I don't want to be any more critical about this edit, because I'm starting to be misunderstood.  I'm (hopefully) being constructive so the final version will have all problems ironed out.

 

I think I understand where you are coming from.  Maybe I came across as a bit annoyed when you mentioned the two things that I already had listed, but I didn't mean to.  I'm taking each of your comments as constructive, and am actually right now rendering some new Xvids based on your sizing recommendations. (although instead of shrinking 2 pixels vertically, I'm just cutting one line from the top and one from the bottom, to avoid unnecessary resampling.)

The important part here is, having now seen this in it's entirety, I LOVE IT.

Excellent!!

This is the most watchable I have found these movies in the past 15 years.  I already have shelf space reserved for the final release.  So take any further comments as merely my attempts to help make this the most perfect fan edit ever.

I have seen so many cuts of these two films (fan edits, restorations, official, etc.) that, for the most part, I can't keep track of what changes Taolar has actually made.  BUT, since they are so seamless, it's disturbing knowing they are there and not being able to spot them.

That's great to read!  And it's part of the reason I didn't want to release a list of all the changes.  I wanted people to give it a chance from beginning to end, and see if they noticed what was done.  I'm very happy to hear that most of it isn't apparent.  I will probably make a commentary track for the DVD that goes over everything, but still hope people watch the entire movie first.

What I do know is the experience was tightly paced, and a pleasure to watch.

The few things I noticed in part 2 (part 1 comments are spread out in my posts above):

When the bus hits Supe @ 54:27 between frames #783641 & 783642 it looks like a few frames are missing.  It skips slightly.

Didn't notice this, but will check it out and fix.  Thanks.

Following that when the back window of the bus is broken out: the audio is slightly out of sync making it feel artificial.

Didn't notice that either.  Thanks.

I like Superman being thrown into the Statue of Liberty's torch from an action stand point.  Mind you, I was not aware that it was moved from New York to Metropolis? ;-)  I don't know if it should be changed or not.  It seems wrong.

I had a debate in my head about this scene.  Not specifically that Metropolis and New York aren't the same city, because in my mind they are (and remember he takes Lois on a sightseeing flight in the first movie where the statue is there).  But I just wasn't sure that the sequence works.  It might be cuttable, but I use it as sort of a segue to the sequence where Non is knocked into the tower (which itself leads to Zod realizing that Sup's weakness is his care for humans).  In the end I decided taking it out ruins the pacing.  I'm willing to take another look at it before the DVD though.

I know it probably wouldn't work, but is there anyway to make it so Lex watches the holo of the 3 Kryptonian villians AFTER they arrive and make news?  It would improve the story.  Otherwise it's him randomly stumbling across the information just BEFORE they show up.  That's a serious coincidence.

That won't work because when the villians make news, Sup and Lois are at the fortress and don't leave until after the crystal controls self destruct.  I hear what you're saying though.  I'd also considered entirely removing the Lex at the fotress scene, but at the end when Zod has him run the controls it wouldn't make sense (or at least, would make less sense than it already does!)

Taolar: I really liked what you did with the new ending.  Everyone is getting on with their lives while the story continues to unfold.  Superman leaving has the double explanation of a relationship that didn't work out and a home to revisit.

Cool.  I'm glad to hear that you liked it.  My biggest fear was that it seemed rushed or that his decision came out of nowhere.

While your delivery occasionally had the flavor of Michael Palin in a Flying Circus sketch (when you mugged the camera).  I probably wouldn't change it.

First let me clarify that the TV news reporter is not me.  What I meant in an earlier post was that I did the new voice for Donner's cameo.  The news reporter is a friend of mine, who will be properly credited on the DVD, and we did about two dozen takes.  Some laying the sarcasm on thick, some not so much, some over the top, some subtle.  I chose the most natural take, which was somewhere in between.

Although I love Michael Palin, my intention was to come close to the delivery of the newscaster that Ms T was listing to early in part 1, not to be comedic.  I have two other takes that I really like which I'll consider before the DVD release.

It would be nice however to see you make a few MORE cameos earlier in the movie in order to established your newscaster character.  Then when you deliver the prologue at the end, the audience is more comfortable with your appearance.

I'll think about that one. I hear ya.

Finally: Lois just got dumped by Superman!  For cryin' out loud, no man you date after that will ever measure up.  I absolutely expected when we saw her typing at the end, to see the title "Why The World Doesn't Need Superman".

It would have shown that she had some real emotional attachment and was upset by the way things ended.  Sort of her working through her emotions in the way she know best.

Also, it would have been frickin' awesome! xD

Funny you should mention that.  For a good six months I was planning on changing the text exactly like you suggest.  A couple things made me somewhat reluctantly change my mind.  One was that in Superman Returns the impression is given that she wrote that article well after Superman had gone missing, as almost a way to console humanity and herself.  Second, I decided Lois wouldn't turn spiteful so quickly.  She wasn't dumped in the traditional sense.  I mean it's not like he told her he would rather date Lana Lang.  She understands why they can't be together.  I think at this point, she would write the article about how "Superman Saves Humanity..." as her way of moving on, by putting herself in the position of objective reporter, despite still feeling the love.  And I think it makes a good counterpoint for when it's reveiled in Returns that she wrote the negative article.  It shows how much her feelings have changed between the two movies and how much him leaving affects the world.

But, like I said, it was a reluctant decision.  I love the idea.

Cheers on a  really really really great edit.
(Can I get an amen to Lois' story title?)

Thanks a bunch Dr. M.  You've been a supporter for a long time, and I'm glad you liked it (and that you felt you could be critical at the same time).  It's all very much appreciated!

The new render should be done soon and reposted.

-T

 

Post
#340558
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
ChainsawAsh said:

The sound concerns are because Taolar used the Extended version as a base, which had ALL sound effects re-recorded in the late '90s or early '00s.  The original mix IMO is much, much better, and is available on the new DVD's theatrical cut (if you have the more recent pressing, there was a mistake in the first pressing that meant it was really a 2.0 downmix of the 5.1 remaster).

 

Mine is the downmixed 2.0.  I'll try to get my hands on the original and check it out.  Thanks!

-T

Post
#340554
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

When Clarke jumps out the Daily Planet window and his clothes fade change into Superman's as he falls... what power is that exactly?  I hate to request an effects shot but any chance of adding some fast-motion-like blurring limbs or rapid spinning as he falls so it looks like he might ACTUALLY be changing clothes not just willing them to transform?

I imagined he was just doing it so quickly that you didn't see his arms.  But I'll think about it, and if I can come up with a way that looks good, I'll give it a try.

What was with Otis' black eye?  We lost the explanation for that (cough or I got distracted cough).  (I don't remember what it was originally.)  Can it be added back (or (heh heh) the removed)?  I suppose it can be shrugged off that the guy's an idiot and he just got his in trouble somewhere.

Please read my to-do list  on the first post.  Specifically:

6. Remove Otis black eye (0% done)

abd 4. Re-work escape from Phantom Zone (20% done)

I appreciate people pointing out flaws, but please check this list before posting about them.  Hope these things didn't detract too much from the rest of the movie.  :)

-T

Post
#340534
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

I'd say so far I can't see 90% of the changes (though as many times as I've seen the Supe films before, I don't have it well memorized).  I do notice the pace to be MUCH tighter, and that's a real mercy.

Excellent!

I hear what is likely sweetened sound fx in the destruction of Krypton (and found it pleasing.)  I wouldn't mind hearing those large panes of glass break (that fall when Clark's ship crashes through the ceiling).  The sound is conspicuous in its absence.

I'm surprised I didn't notice that.  ll check that out.  Thanks.

I have seen a bunch of white break ups (some in the letterbox bars some in the picture itself).  I hope that's a problem being worked on.

Yeah, this isn't in Premiere, but randomly happens during render.  It's incredibly frustrating, and will obviously be fixed for the DVD.  But I didn't think it was often enough to ruin this preview.

Thanks for your input, as always.  :)

-T

 

Post
#340533
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
ChainsawAsh said:

And SoJ's ending might feel more natural when I sit and watch the whole thing all the way through.  It's a great idea, and it certainly makes "Returns" feel less forced.

 

Thanks.  Yes, some of the changes are meant to work with each other.  Actually the whole change of motive for Ms. T only makes sense if you watch from her Intro on.  I've changed her relationship to Lex subtly in every scene they have together.  

And if people were going to download this and just skip around to the ending, I'd want them to begin watching at the Fortress exterior shot, if not earlier.

-T

 

 

Post
#340528
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
ChainsawAsh said:

(NOTE that I didn't watch the entire thing, I mostly skimmed through, but I do plan on sitting and watching the whole thing in the future - this is just what I noticed in skimming)

I also think something needs to be done to smooth out the incredibly harsh transition between late '70s effects and terrible 2000's CG in the rocket sequence

 

Yes, I plan on re-doing that whole sequence before DVD release.  The plan is to make it match the 70's effects as much as possible.

Also, I don't know what to think about the ending - on one hand, it's a pretty cool lead-in to "Returns."  On the other hand, I hate it when movies reference a future sequel - that's one of the things I loved about "The Dark Knight," that they were so focused on making ONE good movie that they didn't try to lead in to a sequel, they just made this one movie the best it could be.  That's just a pet peeve of mine about any movie, though.

I hear you.  But it was my intention to make it lead into Superman Returns, so that's what made the most sense.

And it seems odd that Lois would be left remembering who Superman was, though you set it up for "Returns," where she doesn't.

And yet in Superman Returns she doesn't seem to have a problem with the fact that her son could be Superman's, when she shouldn't remember any of that...  I plan to fix both problems with an edit of Superman Returns.  :)

Finally, I agree about the Luthor/Fortress of Solitude thing - why the hell did he go there, and how the hell did he know it existed?

Oh, and if anything can be done to make the Donner Cut of II's Brando footage match the first movie's, that'd be nice, too - the face doesn't quite have the same look to it.

I have some ideas, but nothing I've tried works.  The problem is I would need to separate the face from the background.  To make matters worse, some of the Extended scenes in the first Superman also have Brando footage where the FX are different.  So you have three or four different ways his his image is presented.  

I will give it a try, but I don't think it's possible to fix.

Please let me know what you think of the whole movie once you watch it!

-T

 

Post
#340527
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
lorang said:

I have just had the opportunity to watch Son of Jorel and for a pre release it scores very highly with what you have attempted to do with many high points and a couple of nags.

The overall edits with part one concerning Superman the Movie are mostly flawless, I was very impressed with the edits, I watched it with a friend who didn't notice any edits until nearly into the first half.

Cool, did your friend just notice that certain things had been removed, or were there harsh edits?  I'd like people to point out harsh edits, so I can fix them before the official release.  There are only a couple that still jump out at me.

A few niggles with me are minor on this section but I'll list them for any creative review from Jo public.

Excellent.  This is exactly what I'm looking for with this release.

1. After the credit sequence there is a fade to black and sound drop with Jorel approaching earth, this fade out didn't really suit with the sound drop a little jarring, possibly better with some form of a blend with the end of the fanfare Superman theme credit sequence then approaching earth.

Yes, I had some difficulty with this transition, but didn't spend too much time on it because I'm going to completely redo the title sequence, and it should transition perfectly then.

2. The introduction of the Otis character is lacking the reason why the cops are following him. In the original it's in the hope he will lead them to Lex, with Otis not a major character the inclusion of this section may help.

I took it out for a couple reasons.  First, I considered the explanation of their reasoning to be lame exposition.  It's the type of dialog that is there only to explain to the audience, when really the characters would not be explaining it to each other because they both already know why they're there.  I like that now the audience isn't 100% sure why they're following him.  They should get the clue when Lex offs the cop.  But even if the audience never figures out the cop's motive, it doesn't hurt the story.

Second, I needed a nice transition from the robber scene, where I had cut some bad dialog as they were leaving the alley ("How did you just described the exact contents of my purse?"  "Um, lucky guess?").  The back drop photo in Grand Central station was perfect, I think.

3.The rearming of the missile by Miss Teshmacher, Otis and Lex, not sure on this one, nothing wrong with the scene as its needed, but I thought the fake car crash sequence may of suited it better excluding the comedic elements with Otis tho, whether that’s possible I don't know.

I tried an edit of the previous scene with the fake car crash, and almost used it.  But I had to edit out the part where Larry Hagman says he's going to give Ms. T mouth to mouth and vigorous chest massages.  And the end result was too choppy.  It just didn't look professional, so I went with the second scene.  There were several things I wanted to do in this edit, but had to abandon them because I couldn't get the end result to feel professional.  Otherwise, I agree with you on this one.  I'll take another look at the scene and see if I can make it work, but most probably it will end up as a deleted scene on the DVD.

4.The sequence in Lex's underground lair when they are discussing the missile and detonator, obviously they are originally talking about 2 missiles but the voice editing on this section seemed a tad rough.

Yes, this took a lot of work just to get it sound a "tad" rough!  :)  I plan on working on this some more.

5.This one I hated in the Donner Cut, and is dependant on how you are watching it but the release of the 3 super villains (as Lex calls them) I hate the very bad blue screen work here as they are floating in space, the Lester footage is a lot better if its possible to add Zods FREE! Quote on the Lester footage it will look a lot better to me, sorry pet hate on Donners cut.

I'm not happy with the escape from the Phantom Zone either, and it's on my list (see updated bottom of my first post) to completely redo.  If I can pull it off, it will be the biggest FX sequence I've ever done.

But I have to disagree that the Lester escape is better than my current edit of that scene.  The orginal S2 had some really awful animation of the Phantom Zone's destrucion.  It looks like something out of S4!

6. The unfinished FX shot of Perry White reading the news headlines, great to see what you are going to do here.

Thanks.  I wish I had been able to finish that one for this release, but that's going to be a tough one.  I'm still not exactly sure how I'm going to pull it off.  But I thought the same thing about the Lex newspaper scene too, and I think that works pretty well.

7. This one is my biggy Lex's trip to the Fortress of Solitude, there is no explanation that I could see of why Lex is heading to the North Pole and to find the Fortress or even how he knew it existed did puzzle me this one!

Yep, this is a problem.  Hopefully not a big one for most people.  I tried several edits where this is explained during the snowmobile ride, but nothing worked.  The scenes that explain this are in prison.  Combining these two movies meant that only one day passes between the missile sequence and the beginning of part 2.  And it makes no sense that Lex would be convicted, in prison, able to build the device that finds the Fortress of Solitude, and execute an elaborate hot air balloon (?!?) escape in one day.

In my defense, the original explaination for figuring out where the fortress is was pretty lame anyway.  And there are several moments in the original movie where Lex does something or figures out something without a good explanation.  For instance, how does he know Kryptonite is lethal to Superman?  How does he get his hands on Kryptonite?  How does Lex know that Superman will be able to hear the high-pitched message he sends out to lure him?  We don't know, but have to suspend disbelief in order for it to work, and assume there's an explanation to his ways that just isn't presented to us as audience members.  I wish this wasn't the case, but it is.

I'm hoping by the time most viewers get to that point in the movie, they will just accept it the same way they accept those other issues.  I think it is pretty minor, comparatively.  And I don't see any real solution anyway.

8.The villains arrival in the Hick Town, with Zod and Ursa looking at the arm wrestling then Bang one of the guys thrown through the wall of the bar, would work better with the inclusion of Ursa sitting down with the guy then we'll known Ursa throw him through the wall.

I removed the scene because I hated how it ended.  Your solution is interesting, but I can't separate the dialog from the Bee Gees background music that would NEVER have been played in that country restaurant.  I moved the scene of the kid walking down the street to give some time for them to throw the guy through the wall, but you're probably right that it's still a little sudden.

I'll give your suggestion a try.  If I can make it work, I will.

9. The sequence straight after the above with the guy pointing a Shotgun at them and Zod stating these humans are beginning to Bore me, was confused as to why you replaced the finger beam with a double eye beam, the single finger beam would be better as when it burns the guy its a single beam, Gotta say love the FX shot of the burn and scream, gives it a darker edge.

Well one of my rules was that I would take out all references to new powers that show up in S2.  The original finger beam was some sort of telekinesis.  I removed it and replaced it with heat beams, which of course only come from the eyes.  I am planning on trying to remove his pointing finger and arm before the DVD release.  See the list of changes I have at the bottom of the first post.  The reason it shows up as a single beam on the man is because both eyes are focused on one spot.  I think all heat beam FX shots end up looking that way.

Glad you liked the burn and scream though.  That's one of my favorite additions. :)

10.I it possible to add a couple of neck break sounds in the White House attack when Ursa kicks and karate chops a couple of the guards, her actions look very lightly a bone break sound may make it look more edgy.

Sure!  That's a great idea!

11. The sequence were Clark is begging for his powers back off his father is truly missing the Brando footage Clark just finding the green crystal leaves it unsure how he gets his power back. The Donner/Brando footage explains it way better.

I took it out for a couple reasons.  The main reason is, if left in, it turns Jorel into a liar.  In the Donner Cut, when Sup first loses his power, Jorel tells him that it can't be reversed.  When Clark returns to beg for forgiveness the green crystal is seen undamaged lying amongst the control panel rubble, ready to be used one last time, and Jorel shows up and tells him that he will give him his powers back, but at the expense of losing Jorel forever.  Why would Jorel have lied in the first place?  What's the point?  He could have just said "Ok, I'll temporarily take away your powers, so you can see what it's like.  If you ever want them back, use the green crystal one last time".

In my version, similar to the original S2, the control panel and all the crystals are completely destroyed.  Jorel thought he was telling the truth when he said that it's irreversible.  The green crystal should have been destroyed too.  The only reason it wasn't was because Lois accidentally left it on the ground. 

And I think it's a better plot device to have Lois inadvertantly be the one who lets Superman get his powers back.

And, as much as I like Brando's footage, I think the whole thing about him using the last of his energy to bring back Sup's powers is a little sappy.  It's better to leave it a mystery how Superman did it. It's a mystery how he switched the molecule chamber to work outside instead of inside anyway. As a viewer, I had always imagined the green crystal (which was able to build the fortress in the first place) just repaired what was left of the control panel when Superman tried to use it.

BTW, that scene, as it is in my edit, is mostly the Donner Cut footage.  The blood stains on his face... his primal screams... the total dispare he has weren't present in the orignal S2 scene.  I only spliced in the green crystal shots from S2 because of it's location.  I'm very happy with how it turns out, except for once scene where the lighting is odd.  I still need to work on the color matching.

12. Love your new ending, but the voice over in the Donner cameo explaining they have found Superman’s home needs a little bit more tweaking.

 

Hahahah!  I agree.  I need to remix or reshoot that voice work.  It's me, by the way.  :)

Thanks, I'm so glad the ending worked for you!  That was the part I was most worried about.  The ending is the most important part of a movie, and I re-worked it so many times it's impossible for me to be objective about it.  I actually showed a fairly rough cut of this movie to a popular fan editor around here, and he wouldn't comment on the ending, so I figured he just didn't want to say anything negative, which really got me worried.  But its now in a much more polished state, and so far everyone else likes it. :)

These points are minor, in my opinion and with what Taolar has achieved is truly amazing and I do give him high praise indeed, the minor points aside there is way too many plus sides to list. So to any one wishing to experience a full Superman experience get Superman: Son of Jorel and fully support Taolar and hopefully a DVD completed version soon???

Thanks again, Lorang.  Your review is much appreciated!!

-T

Post
#340523
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

The MP4Modifier isn't a good answer. AVI isn't suppose to carry AR information so many players (MPC, standalone, etc.) tend to ignore whatever you patch it as.

Actually, once patched it works great in MPC as well as Windows media player and several players in Linux.  If anyone finds a major program that doesn't use the correct aspect ratio after the patch, please let me know and I'll look into it.

MKV natively supports pixel and display aspect ratios and makes a good alternative, but it will of course be unplayable on standalone units.

I'm trying to stick with something that is the most compatible, and so AVI was the choice.  I'll look into MKV though.  Don't really know much about it.

Btw, conventional wisdom would have had you also crop the black bars on the top and bottom to save bitrate. (Would have also preferred the original DD5.1 track to mp3.)

 

Yes, you're right.  I should have done cropped the letterboxing.  I was having so many issues and wanted to get it out quickly, it slipped my mind.  I think the addition to file size is neglegible though, since that area basically never changes and so is extremely compressible. 

Regarding the 5.1 track, it's not at all mixed yet, so I didn't have a choice to use it.  I could have used a different compressor than MP3, but at 192kbps, I think it sounds very good to my ear, and I wanted to save as many bits for video as possible.

...but no one EVER gets their first DivX/XviD encode attempts right. :-)

Really try AutoMKV, it supports XviD as well as X264 and is a tweaker's dream.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Edit: The real problem is you exported to a lossless codec, which unlike an authored DVD contains no information about the display aspect ratio. You have to specifically set the resize and cropping.

In avisynth it would be: crop(2,58,-2,-64).Spline36Resize(844,356).

(Note: This overcrops by one line on the bottom, and slightly shrinks the video (about 2 lines vertically). The reason is that black borders are a sharp edge that Xvid codecs must spend lots of bitrate keeping intact. The resize brings the resolution to mod4 which improves the codec efficiency as well (without introducing aspect ratio error).)

A good way to go would be to create an avisynth script with those settings, use AutoMKV and select the AVS for the video, and the original file (or the .ac3 file if you have it, or mp3 if you want to use one you've already encoded) for the audio track.

Thanks for the info.  I appreciate the advice.

Have you watched it yet?

-T

Post
#340407
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Darth Yub Nub said:

I get the feeling that when Richard Lester was brought in to complete this movie, he viewed this same footage with his team and realized it wasn't working.

From what I read, in order for them to meet the Director's Guild requirement, Lester would have to actually direct 51% of the movie in order to be credited as director.  This is why so much of Donner's work was scrapped and then re-filmed.

The opening Daily Planet scene isn't exciting or interesting. It doesn't even make sense. This is the next day following the missile caper? Luthor is sentenced that quickly? Miss Teschmacher's dialogue later on indicates he's been away for some time so it doesn't work in any logical manner.

I've fixed these issues.

That being said, I'm not even sure why Superman destroys the fortress here, but then I've never understood that. I guess Donner never got to shoot the scene explaining that.

That's been removed, mostly for continuity with Superman Returns.

one gets the sense that while Lester was faithful and comfortable using Donner material, Michael Thau and his team were extremely disrespectful towards anything filmed by Lester.

From what I've read, Donner was insistent that as little Lester footage be used in the Donner Cut as possible.  Thau objected, arguing that the movie is less coherent that way, but he lost the argument.

Watch the opening scene at the Daily Planet. Why are we looking at Jackie Cooper's back as he calls for Lois and Clark? At the end why do we have Lois walking into her dark apartment only to have that followed by Jackie Cooper walking into a dark bathroom turning the lights on? I was initially confused by this, because I expected to see Lois. The entire assembly is filled with questionable choices like this.

These are fixed too.

For all the supposed care that was put into this, the final product has an air of shoddiness to it that is inescapable.

I believe they had a very low budget, and not much time to complete it, unfortunately.

I hope you get a chance to watch my version, and let me know what you think.

-T

 

Post
#340405
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time

NOTE: It has come to my attention that the aspect ratio flag on these files is incorrect, forcing everything to appear tall and skinny. 

The simplest solution for a PC user is to download this free program:

http://www.moitah.net/download/latest/MPEG4Modifier.zip

Run it, and select the first .AVI, set the Display AR to 16:9, then save it as another file name.

Repeat this for the second .AVI.

Now all should be well.  It's a very quick process, and will not affect the quality of the video.

Another solution, available in some programs like Media Player Classic, is to manually set the aspect ratio to 16:9.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

-T

Post
#340345
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Darth Yub Nub said:

You said you are going to do a final release soon..so is this your final cut ?

No, but this is pretty close.  Anyone watching it will notice at least one difficult effect that was obviously not completed.  And closer observers will notice a couple.  I updated the bottom of the first post, with a list of what still needs to be done before the final cut, which will be released on DVD in 2009.

How much of the campyness did you cut?

Most.  As much as I thought was possible.  Camp is in the eye of the beholder though.  Let me know if you think I didn't do enough.  There is definitely some that I wanted to cut, but couldn't find a professional solution to. The one that sticks out most in my mind is the pimp that first sees Superman in costume.  I had it cut since my first version 2 1/2 years ago, but reluctantly put it back in this month when I couldn't find a way to cut him out that wasn't jarring.

I liked the tone of Donner cut much better than the original. I think it was the camp in Lester's version that turned me off. Not that there aren't campy moments in Donner's, there was just something about the slapstick attempt at comedy in Lester's that I didn't like.

Most of the slapstick moments in S2 are gone.

I still find the the donner changes disorienting because the
scenes with Brando were so serious. I'm glad they're back in the Donner version and it works better thematically than having his mother but it's remains a very uneven film.

I agree.  I feel that removing most of the humor from S2 let me bring back in Brando without it feeling out of place.

 

I also
thought the explosions, cars crashes and other effects could've been tightened
further.

Done.

The crowd reactions seems wrong. Why were all those people hanging around? They should've been running away or ducking for cover if there's a mid-air fist fight between Superman and the three villains. They just stood around waiting for something to fall on them.

Not to defend Lester's as a director, but the crowd being around does make some sense.  This is the reason police feel its necessary to put up barriers.  People want to get close to the action.  Besides I couldn't really cut them out even if I wanted to.

Faster cuts would've made that work better and seem less silly.

This, I did do.  And there is less reaction from the crowd in my version, because someone in the crowd ususally says something stupid, like "Wow, home run!".

I liked it as an alternate glimpse. The BOBW would include a careful edit of both versions. The only problem Lester's version had was that it went from deadly serious to very silly camp.

Part 2 is a very careful edit of S2 and DC.  I spent a lot of time thinking through each edit, and have changed my mind over the years.  I'd be interested to hear if you think I got it right.

 

I would also at least look at some scenes cut but used for TV broadcasts, like the PZers killing that kid from a distance. But it would prolly look even worse than the cellophane S.

I did look at all the TV and deleted scenes, but used very little, if any, because the picture quality wasn't very good.

But keep the workable humor. I mean, was the movie irreprably harmed by 'Excuse me, General....' ?

 

Yes, there is still plenty of what I consider "good" humor, as long as it doesn't take the viewer out of a serious moment.

And the campier bits of General Zod's performance are exactly what has made the character such an icon over the last 28 years. "KNEEL before Zod!"

Zod is still over the top.  His ego is huge.  I wouldn't remove it.

There's nothing wrong, for instance, with the beginning Eiffel Tower action scene; it's a riveting, effective action opener and there's no reason why it shouldn't be in there. Donner basically uses the end of part I as a large part of the first act of II. It just feels redundant and is no way to start a movie.

Son of Jorel is a combining of the two movies, so the Eiffel Tower scene is unnecessary, and has been cut.  Personally I hated the sequence anyway.  I tried making an edit of it back when my original intention was just to do an edit of Superman II, but I couldn't make it work to my satisfaction anyway.

There's also nothing wrong with Lester's scenes at Niagara Falls. They help build up the romantic tension a bit more and make their later love scenes seem more credible.

I didn't like most of the Niagara scenes, and a lot of it was cut.  But the Donner Cut hotel scenes, although better written, were test shoots and just don't fit in, visually or performance-wise.  So I was left with very cut Lester directed scenes that I think work well.

The Fortress of Solitude climax was also superior in the first film, even despite the lame cellophane wrap attack and teleporting.

I disagree.  Even if I didn't despise the new powers being used (teleporation, multiple Sups?, cellophane wrap, beams from fingers), and the fact that most of Lex's scenes are with a double, there was still too much joking going on in what should have been a very serious ending.  The fact that there is no real action in the Donner Cut version of that scene isn't important to me.  It just followed a bunch of action in the streets of Metropolis anyway.

the ending for the Donner cut felt REALLY sloppy.

I agree.  Hopefully everyone will like my new "ending".

 

My dream cut of Superman II would be to use the Donner Cut, but then have the movie end on the somber note of Superman dropping Lois off at her apartment, and eliminate everything after that, cut immediately to superman restoring the flag at the white house then\or cut to Superman flying off into space, and cue the credits). No reset button in which Lois forgets that she knows Superman's secret identity. Any such reset button is kind of a cheat, IMHO.

I pretty much agree.

Sure, it screws up the continuity of the subsequent movies, but who cares about the subsequent movies?

Well, the only sequel to Superman II, in my mind is Superman Returns.  And there are a bunch of continuity errors between the two anyway.  I will try to erase those with this edit, and with a possible edit of Superman Returns (especially if they go ahead with a proper sequel to that, and not the proposed reboot).

Hope that answers your concerns.  Please watch the edit and tell me what you think.

-T

 

Post
#340342
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
bkev said:

Well, Taolar, I gotta hand it to ya.  That was one helluvan edit you got here; I could tell where the new footage was, but only because I was looking.  And THANK you for getting rid of one of the worst copouts in movie history.

10/10... can't wait for the DVD!

Thanks Bkev!  Wow, my first review was 10/10??  I don't know whether to be happy or sad.  Because it can only go downhill from here!  ;)

Thanks again!  I'm thrilled you liked it.

-T

 

Post
#340340
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
bkev said:Not as familiar as most are with these movies (only saw 2's Donner Cut and the original movie quite a few years ago), but I downloaded.  Looking forward to watching!  Anyone got a list of changes?

 

I haven't sat down to detail all my changes, and I don't know that I will.  There's has been a lot done, undone, and re-done over the last 2 1/2 years.  I probably couldn't make a complete list right now.

But briefly, here's my own rules regarding this edit:

  1. Keep the end result as professional as possible.  (This is the most important rule, and means if there was a scene or clip of dialog that I wanted to cut, but couldn't do it without being painfully obvious, I kept it in.  This resulted in a lot of cutting, then months later replacing of footage and trying to rework it, because I realized that even though I didn't like the scene, it was a necessary plot point.  This is also why some of the Donner Cut scenes (which I preferred story-wise, but not performance/quality-wise) didn't make it in, and why some of the below rules weren't strictly followed.)
  2. Create darker tone (reduce the camp as much as possible, reduce the humor in the middle of serious scenes, remove slapstick almost completely, etc.)
  3. Reduce the redundant/unnessessary dialog.
  4. Remove all references to new powers.  (This mostly pertains to the second film: Telekinesis, Cellophane Superman Symbol, Teleportation and Illusionary Supermen, Super Memory Erasing Kiss)
  5. Remove as much of the unrealistic/silly as possible (turning back time by rotating the Earth, changing Mt Rushmore, etc.)
  6. Re-edit every action scene to feel slightly more modern.
  7. Fix FX when feasible.
  8. Remove much of the ending of S1.
  9. To service #8, I had to make Ms. T's entire relationship with Lex in S1 seem more distant/spiteful.
  10. Have the missile from S1 be what destroys the Phantom Zone.  (Thus removing the beginning of S2, AND the whole jail sequence with Lex and escape (by hot air balloon?!?), since now only a day has passed between the two movies).
  11. Use only footage from official Superman sources, except those created by me.
  12. Repair continuity errors when feasible.  (This turned into a bear, because the more you watch the movies, the more you notice.  And some of my changes may have created their own continuity errors, so at one point I decided if I kept it up, I would never finish this.  This isn't Superman: Revisited. (as much as I respect Adywan and what he does, I ain't no Adywan))
  13. Keep total runtime to under 3 hours.  (This mostly has to do with my inability to enjoy extra long movies.  And this results in me having to cut scenes, that while not necessary to the plot, were some of my favorite scenes in the movies.)
  14. Use highest quality sources available.  (Most FX scenes were created using the HD sources, most music is from Ultimate Superman Soundtrack, not mp3s)
  15. Focus more on the relationship between Jorel and Kalel.  (Jorel does not knowingly lie to Kalel now)

If there's enough interest, then I'll release a commentary track on the DVD and will try to point out everything I did.  But until that DVD is done I don't have the interest in putting an exhaustive list together. 

I just did a quick scan of part 1, and there are between 130 and 200 cuts.  With the longest uncut segment from either movie being about 9 minutes.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

-T

Post
#340333
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time
Doctor M said:

I would have probably tried AutoMKV, it's still being developed and is more flexible than AGK.

Is there a reason you didn't output to DVD format instead of lossless before making the XviD?  Not that I'm complaining.

I will check out AutoMKV, but I think my Virtual Dub/Audacity combo have made some good XVID.

 

I didn't output to DVD first, because of the degredation that generally happens when you compress video twice.  So I outputted to Lagarith, which is completely lossless, then used those to create the Xvid and the DVD for my own testing purposes.

-T

Post
#340263
Topic
Superman by Taolar (Formally: Son of Jorel) WORKPRINT AVAILABLE
Time

Premiere won't do it, so I had to output from Premiere to a lossless codec.  So I've tried Huffyuv and Lagarith, which a bunch of different setting.  Everything, at best, produced weird noise every once in a while, even though it looks perfect within Premiere.  I finally found a setting that rarely produced noise and only did it in the letterbox section.  But the audio had a strange error, where the center channel ran at a higher speed than the rest.  So throughout the movie you'd hear high pitched dialog from future scenes.  I was able to export a good uncompressed WAV, separately from the movie.

So I tried AGK, which would never keep the audio in sync, and would cut off the first few seconds of black video, further putting the audio out of sync.

I tried Gordian Knott, which would not load the complete AVI.  I'm assuming because the file size was too large (37bg for part 1, 27gb for part 2).

Last night I had success with just using VirtualDub to encode Xvid video, and Audacity to convert the audio.  When I checked this morning part 1 looked and sounded good.  I'm encoding part 2 right now.

The toughest part of all of this is that it takes between 2 and 3 hours to render each part of the movie, and I had to work this week, and had little time in the evening.  So I was limited to two or three attempts per day.

-T