Superweapon VII

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

I’d like to suggest Storyteller from Star Wars Tales #19. It came out in like '05 or so but has no prequel references whatsoever and it’s just a neat little story anyway. (I recommend it to everyone who sees this comment!)

Yeah, it’s a neat coda to the SW Universe. I generally eschew 1999+ EU, mainly because it’s a headache trying to parse through it, but there’re quite a few Tales stories which can slot in my canon with no problem.

In A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, Second Edition, Ben and Anakin’s birth years are given as 60 BBY and 55 BBY, respectively. That would’ve made them twenty-five and twenty in 35 BBY, the year given as the end date for the Clone Wars. Though who can say what Lucas had in mind in 1977. Ben may’ve been in his nineties or even older, given some of the dialogue.

screams in the void said:

yotsuya said:

Well, completely ignoring the PT, I get the following.

Luke. In ANH we find that Vader hunted down the Jedi. Luke’s father died (in ANH there is nothing linking Anakin and Vader). So we can come to the conclusion that the events where the Empire rose were not earlier than Luke’s conception. Anakin knew of Luke’s at least impending birth before he died.

Leia. Kenobi severed her father in the Clone Wars. This doesn’t tie specifically to Leia’s age, but does pin down her father being of the generation of the Clone Wars.

Kenobi. He speaks of the Jedi, before the Empire, before the Dark times. There is no clear link between what he says and the Clone Wars, only that he and Anakin both fought in the Clone Wars. So Kenobi, Anakin, and Leia’s father were all in the clone wars in some capacity.

All of that agrees with the PT.

In TESB we get a more firm timetable of the Empire with Vader being Luke’s father. We do hear Luke thinking Dagobah is very familiar, but we don’t get any reason why. From the context of the film it was most likely a force vision.

In ROTJ we find out that Luke and Leia are twins. This firmly plants the start of the Empire at their birth. Why? Vader did not know Luke had a sister which means he was not present at the birth. So the event that turned Vader and started the Empire happened between conception and birth of the twins.

We still have no indication of when the Clone Wars took place. It could be a month before or a decade before.

From the actors it is also hard to guess. Alec Guiness was was 63 when ANH was released. Sebastian Shaw (true he wasn’t cast yet) was almost 72. Phil Brown was 61 and Shelagh Fraser was 56. So Alec, Phil, and Shelagh were contemporaries and from the dialog in ANH, Sebastian was cast to show how the Dark Side had aged and warped him. Anakin was Kenobi’s student. When you look at the ages in Attack of the Clones, the relative ages of Kenobi, Owen and Beru are not that different, 31, 27, and 18) from the ANH cast (63, 61, 56 about 30 years older). So Anakin was young enough for Kenobi to train (also remember that Yoda said Luke was too old in TESB, so Anakin would be younger than Luke… by a lot). So Sebastian’s advanced age much have had a reason beyond Anakin actually being older than Kenobi.

So from the casting and the dialog just in the OT, the Clone Wars had to have taken place somewhere between 30 and 20 years before ANH. Officially it was 22-19 years before. So all the timings of the PT fit with what we see in the OT, except the age of the actors. But there is also nothing in the movies indicating how long the Clone Wars lasted so adding in another 5 to 10 years of war doesn’t break anything. Also, Ahsoka appears to have grown up considerably more than 3 years, and she is introduced when the Clone Wars are well underway (Anakin was still a Padawn when they started). So the official timeline seems too short and doesn’t really fit with the ages of the actors cast in both the OT and PT.

As a side note, Jimmy Smits was much older than the others in AOTC, but he was contemporary by the time he appeared in Rogue One (he was 61 when it was released).

^ based on the above ,an idea popped in my head …it seems logical to me that Anakin should have been 15 years old at the start of the prequel trilogy . That would have made him fairly substantially younger than Luke at the start of his journey in the OT , without straying into the kiddie territory with Anakin being 9 years old in episode 1 as released . I wonder if Lucas had the thought that making Anakin 15 at the start of the PT would be straying too close to Dune ,what with Paul Atreides being 15 in the first book and being part of a chosen one prophecy in the sense of Paul being a prophecized messiah . Maybe he realized how much he borrowed from Dune in the OT already ( among many other sources ) , looked over at his son who was a toddler at the time , and decided on placing Anakin at 9 years old as a happy medium between 9 and 15 so that it wouldn’t be too on the nose derivative of Dune . Probably a stretch ,but I find it fun to think about . I would still like to have had Anakin start out at 15 in episode one anyway . I vote 30 to 25 years before ANH as the start date of the Empire .

I recall reading an interview where Lucas said he initially planned to make Anakin 12, but bumped it down to 9 to make his separation anxiety over Shmi greater.

Alright, I’ve decided to commit myself to a personal canon. God have mercy on my immortal soul.

• The original unaltered Star Wars Trilogy. No bloody 97SE, 04SE, 11SE, or 19SE.
• The OT radio dramatizations.
• The OT novelizations.
• The Archie Goodwin/Al Williamson newspaper comic strip.
• The original Marvel comic – including most of the Alan Moore UK stories, excluding most of the post-ROTJ issues.
• The Tales of the Jedi comics, minus Redemption (I prefer Tom Veitch’s original concept of Ulic Qel-Droma dying unredeemed)
• The Thrawn Trilogy
• Dark Empire
• I, Jedi
• The Dark Forces novella trilogy
• Mara Jade – By the Emperor’s Hand
• Junior Jedi Knights
• Young Jedi Knights
• The Corellian Trilogy (chiefly for Leia’s boss ruby lightsaber)
• The Hand of Thrawn Duology
• Brendon J. Wahlberg’s Dark Emperor & Rise of the New Sith fanfic series

There’re various & sundry other stories in the pre-1999 EU that are compatible with my personal canon, but I exclude them for the sake of brevity.

VineSauceShamrock said:

Is Dark Empire the weird “The Emperor cloned himself” thing? XD
Oh boy.

Yep. Personally, I like the first Dark Empire. It’s closer to what I think ROTJ should’ve been, frankly. I’m not so keen on Dark Empire II and Empire’s End, though I still like the art.

Oh, and does Revan appear in Tales of the Jedi? Cause that’ll be what determines if I read it I think.

No, but characters/events from TOTJ, like Exar Kun, Arca Jeth, the Great Sith War, etc. are mentioned in the KOTOR comics. I’d recommend TOTJ regardless, inconsistent artwork and writing notwithstanding, because these comics were the first of any SW media to explore the ancient Jedi and Sith. And there aren’t any noisome prequelisms either, which is a plus in my book.

You might want to read the Dark Empire trilogy before heading into Crimson Empire, because the latter references/builds off events from the former. And if you’re going to read the KOTOR comics, you should read the Tales of the Jedi comics first, since again, there’s connective tissue between the two.

As for some additional suggestions, you can’t go wrong with the Archie Goodwin/Al Williamson comic strip for sheer space fantasy goodness. And the Marvel comic from the '70s/'80s is fun too, though it gets pretty dire after the events of ROTJ.

I’m greatly annoyed that the original manuscript for the unpublished novel Heart of the Jedi isn’t available to read. Joseph Bongiorno wanted to revise the text to bring the story in-line with established Expanded Universe lore? Fine, nothing wrong with that. But why not release both the original and revised versions so fans can have a choice? Lucas’ revisionist mentality truly is an insidious poison.

NFBisms said:

And like, Lucas can be wrong about his own work.

Don’t let the Fandumb Menace hear this.

In the immortal words of Grumpy Cat: “Good.”

Ventress’ backstory in the Clone Wars multimedia project > Ventress’ backstory in TCW.

LexX said:

fmalover said:

I say ROTJ marked the point George Lucas decided that Obi-Wan’s robes from the first movie were the official Jedi vestments, as evidenced by Anakin’s ghost, which retroactively creates a problem.

Kinda, but also Anakin is from Tatooine. But mainly, it works for the audience best. If they had seen Anakin in some sleek Luke’s black uniform or samurai like wardrobe, he wouldn’t have looked nearly as friendly and kind than old Ben’s familiar comfortable robes.

Yeah, that’s the reasoning I go with also. Anakin assumed a form he knew his son would find comforting and familiar.

Vladius said:

I finished reading Dark Empire 1-3 and I’m reading I, Jedi right now (which is also a retelling of the Jedi Academy trilogy.) It’s incredible how much it relates to this thread. Of the first Jedi in the new era, 3/4 of them are Jedi because their father or grandfather was a Jedi and the training was passed down to their kids. (Luke, Corran Horn, and Kam Solusar.) There is open discussion of people falling in love, getting widowed, remarrying, etc. Corellia has its own Jedi tradition, which was passed down through Jedi families.

The prequels are a giant swollen retcon, and not for the better.

Also Corran mentions Tatooine is Obi-Wan’s homeworld, and Luke doesn’t correct him.

Emre16O1 said:

Caston said:

Back to the OP; certainly interesting to think how the story could have evolved with Vader, Anakin, and Kenobi being 3 completely separate characters, but also good friends.

Is there any fan fiction continuing on the premise in Leigh Brackett’s 1978 draft of Empire Strikes Back? Or similar media such as an “animated comic” type story?

I have not found any. I hope someone else knows of some as it is such an interesting idea.

The fan community’s more concerned with animated adaptations of EU stories and comic adaptations of Colin Trevorrow’s rejected Duel of the Fates script. Blecch.

I don’t think I’m gonna watch the final season of Stranger Things. In hindsight, everything after the first season has been adventures in diminishing returns, coasting on '80s nostalgia and that first season to keep afloat. But the emperor really has no clothes. I have no investment in this show anymore.

Also, I loved Kate Bush before this show was a blip on the radar. The civilized keep alive the territorial war.

Five thousand and thirty nine.

BedeHistory731 said:

Also, as for Palpatine and Vader’s use of the Sith? I tend to think of Palpatine as somebody who used the Sith as a means to an end, while Vader fully embraced the ways of the Sith. A grifter vs a true believer, as some would say.

In my personal headcanon, I’ve smooshed the Palpatine and Darth Bane characters together. I imagine he had many of the same epiphanies the Bane of Legends/canon did. He may’ve even adopted the Rule of Two at some point. But that went out the window once he discovered how to escape physical death by transferring his soul into other bodies. At that point, any prospective apprentice became a spare body rather than an heir to the Sith legacy. Like the Jedi, the Sith believe in “passing on what one has learned”, but Palpatine would horde his knowledge, and this is anathema to the Sith. Another reason for acrimony between the two parties.

I also like to think that there’s a major difference between Sith philosophy and Palpatine’s. They both worship the dark side of the Force, but the Sith adhere to certain traditions and codes of honour they consider sacred whilst Palps is purely a self-serving psychopath, putting them at odds.

BedeHistory731 said:

Vladius said:

That’s really interesting. I actually just read Dark Empire and I’m on Dark Empire 2 right now. I still question that internal logic though because the Emperor was clearly Vader’s master, and the Dark Lord of the Sith wasn’t ever subordinate to anyone else in TOTJ, other than ghosts of former Dark Lords like Marka Ragnos.

I’m trying to think of a justification for this inconsistency and I’m coming up blank.

I like to entertain the idea that Anakin joined the Sith specifically to gain the power to defeat Palpatine. But he overestimated his own abilities, confronted Palpatine half-cocked, had his ass handed to him, and was forced to join him or die.

Vladius said:

I do think Palpatine was intended to be a Sith, though. Once the Sith and the concept of Sith Lords existed, I’m fairly certain that Vader and Palpatine were integrated into it.

Little doubt this is what Lucas intended, but it’s a factoid he apparently kept close to his chest, because Palpatine wasn’t characterized as a Sith in the pre-1999 EU. Darth Vader was characterized as THE Dark Lord of the Sith during the time of the Empire, and as per Tales of the Jedi, only the reigning Sith lord held the “Dark Lord” title. And Empire’s End excluded Palpatine from the Sith hierarchy.

The Sith spirits were gracious enough to make Palpatine an honorary Dark Lord in lieu of Vader, but that Vader had a throne set up for him in their mausoleum while Palpatine didn’t speaks volumes.

• Ben would’ve been born in 60 BBY. He also would’ve been Owen’s brother, indicating perhaps that his birth name was “Ben Lars”, with “Obi-Wan Kenobi” being a nom de guerre he adopted upon becoming a Jedi.
• Anakin would’ve been born in 55 BBY.
• The Clone Wars would’ve ended in 35 BBY. The wars, in part, would’ve been a conflict between the Republic and malevolent Clonemasters, possibly with a Mandalorian clone army at their command. A few decades of peace would’ve separated the wars from the rise of Palpatine’s New Order and the Jedi Purge.
• Palpatine wouldn’t have been a Sith. He would’ve been extremely old, having been a senator in the Republic Senate in the pre-Clone Wars years, but would’ve used a combination of dark side sorcery and cloning to extend his life and maintain a youthful appearance.
• Yoda would’ve already been living in exile on Dagobah for a hundred years or more, indicating he didn’t participate in the Clone Wars or know Anakin personally.
• Luke & Leia’s biological mother may’ve been a Fallanassi adept named Nashira, though this is a VERY unlikely possibility. She wouldn’t have died at the end of the trilogy, whatever the case.
• Jedi would’ve been allowed to marry/have kids, at least within their own order.
• There would’ve been more lightsaber colour variety, for Jedi and darksiders alike.
• Qui-Gon wouldn’t have been Obi-Wan’s primary teacher.

Suffice to say, an EU-accurate PT would’ve been a very different animal to the GPT even if the main beats of the trilogy been preserved.

Raid the Disney vault, you must.

There’s this line of dialogue from the rough draft, spoken by General Luke Skywalker to Annikin Starkiller:

“You are trained well, but remember, a JEDI must be single-minded, a discipline your father obviously never learned, hence your existence.”

So from early on, Lucas entertained the notion that celibacy was valued by the Jedi. That said, it wasn’t a hard-and-fast rule that Jedi were dogmatically required to adhere to; there’s nothing in the rough draft implying Skywalker held Kane Starkiller in contempt for siring offspring.

My memory of the second-to-third drafts in much hazier, but I recall a mention that in their prime, the Jedi consisted of several hundred families. Again, an indication that celibacy wasn’t a inviolate rule until the prequels were made.

timdiggerm said:

The real question is: why does anyone care about having a consistent canon?

I’m inclined to blame the modernist understanding of truth.

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