Shopping Maul

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think this is a good attempt at explaining the ‘Mary Sue’ issue - and it’s short too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sar9BAyvU

I agree with his assessment. I also feel there’s a clash of creative choices in the ST regarding Rey. I liked Rey in TFA. She was self-reliant, and even if I felt she was generally just a little to good at everything, Daisy Ridley gave her a vulnurability, that made her endearing. Like many people out there, I expected a good explanation for her sudden Force abilities in TLJ, and thus conditionally accepted them. Except it never came. While the whole anyone can be a Jedi/Rey is a nobody angle seems like a good idea on paper, it doesn’t mesh well with the setup in TFA imo. The darkness rises and light to meet it explanation seems contrived, underdeveloped, and a cheap shortcut in Rey’s development, such that we can focus on Luke and Kylo, and have a ROTJ like throne room confrontation in the middle chapter, which sees Rey being evenly matched with Kylo, despite the fact that she only learned about the Force a few days earlier, and Luke has taught her very little, aside from telling her the Jedi suck. The explanation for her sudden rise in power is just too thin, making Kylo seem weak by comparison, and no attempt is made to make it fit into existing canon. Like the FO’s unlimited resources, and Snoke’s ascension, it’s just pulled out of thin air, and we’re supposed to be entertained enough to ignore the undercooked nature of these story developments. It seems even the creators realized this, when they introduced the idea of Rey downloading the know how from Kylo’s mind in the novel.

I was in exactly the same boat - I liked TFA (mostly) and was eager for the explanations that were sure to come (I even found myself defending the film - and Rey - online, so sure was I that an epic story had been crafted in advance here).

Then I read somewhere that Rian had absolute free reign with the next film, and I recall how uneasy that made me feel. I was like “well, not FREE reign, I mean there’s roadmap right…?”

I can’t for the life of me understand why these people didn’t think to write a story first!

I think this is a good attempt at explaining the ‘Mary Sue’ issue - and it’s short too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sar9BAyvU

Oh man, I’ve bitched about this stuff so much on these threads that I’m sure the sight of my monicker on this one will induce groans for all and sundry…

I have so many issues with the ROTJ climax (and associated ethics) that I don’t know where to begin. Luke’s role for one thing. Luke’s only goal here - his expressed goal - was to save Darth Vader (a known mass-murderer). Oh sure, he also wanted to get out of the way so as not to endanger the mission, but beyond that his motivations were entirely selfish. Ask yourself what you would do if a) you had Jedi powers and b) were alone in a room with space-Hitler and his right-hand thug while they were annihilating entire shipfuls of innocent beings with a super-laser. Would you hide under a stairwell because, after years of happily killing bad guys (including a previous Death Star) you were suddenly concerned with becoming a Zen master? Or would you knock your deadbeat Dad out of the way and do everything in your power to stop the carnage?

Secondly - Vader’s redemption and Luke’s newfound knighthood. All Vader did was save his own flesh and blood. If that really earns a sainthood after years of war and butchery then Force help us all. Not to mention the fact that Palpatine had already told both Luke and Vader that Vader was up for permanent replacement, so poor old Anakin was hardly using excessive wisdom to read between the lines.

Again, how is it ‘the Dark Side’ for Luke to rise to the defence of the entire Galaxy and kill Palpatine, yet it’s the ‘Light Side’ if Vader kills Palpatine in defence of Luke? Meanwhile…

“I am a Jedi” declares Luke proudly, completely oblivious to the fact that this has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on the battle that’s being waged outside. Indeed, had the Death Star been blown up a couple of minutes earlier the outcome would’ve been no different. Better even, given that Luke wouldn’t survive to bring Darth-wannabe Kylo into the picture.

So yeah, I guess I agree with the video…

RogueLeader said:

I understand you but it is just weird to me how, generally, guys seem to complain that she is a Mary Sue much more than female fans of the movies. Like I said, generally. I’m sure someone could pull up some YouTube videos of women saying she is a Mary Sue to try to refute my opinion, but even then if you were to flip it around, you would probably have more men saying she isn’t a Mary Sue than women saying she is a Mary Sue.

The Mary Sue claims just seem strangely disproportionate. Yeah, there might be more male Star Wars fan than women, but even if you were to take that into account it still seems like it would be disproportionate on average.

Like I’ve already said, that’s not saying that men who think that are sexist. I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I just think it is worth exploring why a lot of guys seem hung up on it when more female fans seem to accept/enjoy her character without this issue.

If Rey was such a badly written female character, you would think there would be a more vocal concern from the female fan communities who might want better representation, so you would assume you would hear more female fans complaining about it than male fans. But it seems like it is predominantly male fans that are the most vocal regarding this issue, does it not?

I dunno. Just curious to me. I just feel like men and women do have unconscious biases regarding the opposite sex that affect the way we perceive characters of one gender compared to the other (and by extension people in real life). It is just might not be immediately clear to us, and difficult for us to articulate.

This is such an interesting question. I’m only guessing here, but I wonder if a lot of it has to do with a large percentage of the older fanbase being male (given that Lucas was supposedly aiming the films at 12 year-old boys). I don’t have the stats obviously, but it would make sense that a long-term fanbase would be the ones most heavily invested in matters of canon and consistency. It logically follows that a new fanbase (with more females in it) would be more inclined to see the entire thing through fresh eyes and with less dogged adherence to what has gone before. Plus they (the newer female audience) might be inclined to simply enjoy the female representation in the films without being too concerned with the minutiae of Force abilities and such, while the old guard are more obsessed with what has been previously established (in their own minds as much as official canon).

I stress this is mere speculation!

I think the difference here is the actual intentions of the filmmakers. For example if I have a problem with the Ewoks, a quick online search will show that Lucas was referencing the Vietnam war. Okay, that might not change my mind, but I can at least see where he was coming from and get a sense of the intention.

So with Rey I might be perplexed at her power levels and how that might clash with my sense of SW canon. If I hit Google what I’ll find is Kathleen Kennedy banging on about ‘strong female characters’. Ewoks as a Vietnam allegory makes sense to me. Palpatine as Nixon makes sense to me. Rey being superwoman because ‘strong female characters’ is nonsense. That’s not storytelling being inspired by politics. That’s politics subsuming storytelling.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

That actually does sounds like something he would do… but why do assume you’re making a sarcastic comment? I’m not aware of anyone behind TLJ doing that.

I was just making a joke (however lame) about the style of conversation around movies these days. But even as I wrote it, it did occur to me that someone here would probably dig up such a quote and subvert my attempt at humour!

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

Man, I really don’t like Thor Skywalker. All of his stuff is very clickbaity. He speaks with this same tone in all of his videos, as if each sentence is some deep point he is making. It’s really manipulative, and makes people feel like they agree with what he’s saying without even thinking about it. But I guess that describes most clickbaity Star Wars YouTubers.

EDIT: And personally it seems a lot of female fans like Rey, and it gets kind of tiring hearing the perspective of male fans (or the one or two female YouTubers who have a large male audience). That’s personally why I like the Reylo community a lot. At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

I generally appreciate the points Thor makes, though not the affected gravitas. However, I think there are far worse offenders in that category (Nerdwriter, I’m looking at you).

However, your point about the Reylo community got me thinking…most of the male critics of Rey like to point out how egalitarian they are by offering up Strong Female Leads, and they’re invariably Ripley/Sarah Connor/Furiosa/etc, in other words action heroines. They then compare Rey to these examples to show how easy her victories seem in comparison to these legendary badasses.

But maybe they have made the mistake of assuming that the Star Wars ST falls under the action genre, when the reality is that the ST could simply be a different genre altogether.

In a drama, especially a romantic drama, the female lead is rarely beset by physical obstacles, but rather mental/emotional ones. The most defining flaw of Rey’s character is a desire for belonging against the growing feeling that her every relationship is doomed. Rey would not be out of place as the lead in a drama, but since Star Wars has such a strong aspect of action there is also the expectation for Rey to be an action heroine and conform to the rules and limitations implied in its previous installments.

That’s where the disconnect seems to be - the Reylo crowd reads the ST as a (romantic) drama, while the ‘""""“True”""""""’ Star Wars fans read the ST as an action movie and a strict continuation of everything in the first six Star Wars installments.

I think the reason fans keep offering up Ripley and Sarah Connor as examples of their own egalitarianism is to counter the constant claim that criticism of Rey is tantamount to fostering misogyny. Then, of course, they’re accused of being misogynists for that very reason - the fact that they doubled down with Ripley and co. is supposedly proof of the fragility of their position. They simply can’t win.

We don’t get this with Jar Jar Binks. Plenty of fans hate Jar Jar and say he’s a childish and badly written character. Plenty of defenders counter with notions of mythical and psychological tropes to justify Jar Jar’s place in the saga. But no-one gets accused of being ‘anti-comedy’. If they did, I’m sure they would double down on Youtube and cite Charlie Chaplin and Monty Python as good examples of comedy in order to dispel the ‘anti-comedy’ position. Similarly no-one gets accused of being ‘anti-wildlife’ or somehow ‘speciest’ for hating on the Ewoks.

The problem with dismissing any comparison of Rey to action heroines is that Rey is portrayed as an action heroine, irrespective of whatever supposed emotional undercurrent is intended. The bare fact is that Rey goes around kicking everyone’s ass without breaking a sweat. Therefore it has to make sense both in the narrative and the canon as established. For many fans it simply doesn’t.

I haven’t seen any of Thor’s content beyond the above example, but I thought his position was entirely reasonable in this instance. And I certainly didn’t come away from it thinking that he has issues with women or is putting out cheap clickbait.

screams in the void said:

this is my favorite Star Wars poster of all time …http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2013/06/09/Japanese-Empire-Strikes-Back-Magazine used here for the cover of a Japanese magazine

Oh yeah, that one’s awesome! I saw a UK TESB VHS on ebay recently with that cover art and nearly bought it purely for the artwork alone.

I quite like the TFA poster to be honest (and I think there’s a less ‘crammed’ version on the DVD), and you’re absolutely right about the TLJ one.

With the prequels, I loved the AOTC poster that had Anakin and Padme back to back (with words to the effect of ‘a Jedi shall not know anger or love’). I thought that was really effective.

I’m a total sucker for the original OT posters. That first Star Wars poster with Conan-Luke and the 8000 X-Wings just takes me right back to how the film felt for me as a wide-eyed 8 year-old in '77. I know it looks like hokey Frazetta art now, but it’s just a precious moment in time that should absolutely be adorning unaltered blurays of the OT. Similarly the ‘Gone with the Wind’ 1980 TESB poster evokes a similar feeling in me.

Finally I love the teaser ‘Revenge of the Jedi’ poster that hinted at a great movie that was sadly never made…

I remember first seeing SW comics on the rack as a little kid and being appalled at the depictions of the characters (the square chins, Luke’s hair etc etc). Then throughout '78-'79 (a short few months later but an eternity in ‘kid time’) I actually got into comics properly, and suddenly the SW comics looked great to me. Ironically the very thing that had put me off became the thing that I was drawn to - namely the fact that Infantino drew the characters like super heroes.

Putting the TESB adaptation aside, it was issue #49 (the Last Jedi) that changed my ‘head canon’. This was the first issue that felt - to me at least - like it was in the same universe as the movie saga. From then on (with a couple of exceptions ie the John Carter/Leia story) the comics became interwoven with the canon for me, as opposed to just being ‘Marvel Star Wars’.

Simonson was awesome. He was great on Battlestar Galactica too, and I also loved the Close Encounters adaptation he did with Klaus Jansen and Archie Goodwin. While I agree with Zkin that Tom Palmer diluted Simonson somewhat, I think it worked for me in this instance because it made the images more ‘movie accurate’ and also eased the transition from Walt to Ron Frenz. Either way the dude was great! Good times…

I think Dave Prowse was great. He really gave Vader a mobility and personality that I think is often overlooked/overshadowed by the voice and breathing sound.

screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

screams in the void said:

Defending Admiral Holdo in The Last Jedi …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyfb-K1rbY

And on the other hand…(not trying to be a jerk, I honestly think this is a valid rebuttal)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zy7RY3HgKQ

interesting video , I can see some of his points , though I would argue that Holdo was a little pissed that her best friend Leia was hospitalized and Leia was also in on Holdo’s plan .I completely disagree with the suggestion towards the end of the video that TLJ had no quiet character driven moments though …here is one …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GU4hyN5rnk and another …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepMuMoAKpA

I totally agree - in fact I nearly mentioned it when I posted but didn’t want to throw a wall of text at you. But yeah, the ‘quieter moments’ thing doesn’t entirely ring true for me either. In fact I really like the moment between Leia and Holdo (just before Holdo’s sacrifice) - there is just so much in that little scene that speaks volumes about the possible past that Leia and Holdo share. Plus, I think ‘pacing’ as a concept has changed a lot over the years. I remember when Star Wars itself was considered a non-stop breakneck roller coaster ride. It only got ‘slower’ with time.

Also that AOTC scene he shows with Anakin and Palpatine is like the one character moment that demonstrates the dynamic between those two - which isn’t much given that this is supposedly the backbone of Anakin’s seduction/fall! So yeah, I really love Mauler’s content generally but I don’t agree with him on all points.

Re the clip you posted - I do respect his point of view, even if I don’t agree with it, but I’m not with him on the idea of Holdo being Ackbar. I think the whole point of her being an unknown quantity is/was important. Had it been Ackbar there’d be no surprise to the twist/sacrifice.

Thanks as always for sharing and happy Xmas/Festivus/Life day!

screams in the void said:

Defending Admiral Holdo in The Last Jedi …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyfb-K1rbY

And on the other hand…(not trying to be a jerk, I honestly think this is a valid rebuttal)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zy7RY3HgKQ

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

I agree. And while I think time will smooth out some of TLJ’s rough edges, I still maintain that Canto Bight, space Leia, and Holdo’s communication issues will go the way of Jar Jar Binks, “I don’t like sand”, and “she’s lost the will to live”. I don’t foresee a ‘fine wine’ scenario with this stuff.

It will be interesting to see if Abrams can make this trilogy seem ‘necessary’ given how conclusively RoTJ ended the series. I think it’ll take more than the current ‘the Empire was defeated and then grew back again’ vibe of the SE to make it feel like an intrinsic part of a 9-film saga.

screams in the void said:

Shira is one of my favorite characters in all of Star Wars , the original red haired assassin years before Mara Jade , and she made the leap from comics to novels decades after she was introduced .Also , I have always pronounced her name as Shyra Bry , but Dave Michellinie , who wrote her , has said that he does pronounce her first name that way but the majority of fans he talked to pronounced it Sheera and he also has said the last name is pronounced Bree .The Sheera pronunciation reminds me too much of She Ra from Masters Of The Universe and Bree reminds me of the cheese food ,so in my head , I am sticking with the Shyra Bry pronunciation.

I hear that after being rejected by Luke, she married someone called Hee-Man Camembert…

I’d say Leia, but that’s obvious. Into the garbage chute flyboy…

I really liked Shira Brie in the Marvel series. She was so good - in fact that whole era of Marvel SW was so good - that I actually expected her to be in RoTJ. I didn’t follow her story after RoTJ - I know she became Lumiya but I’m not really up to speed on all that. She should’ve been the ‘other hope’ IMO…

I love Commander D’acy in TLJ although I can’t quite pinpoint why. Rian Johnson says in the commentary that she was given more screen-time because she had this great presence. I agree, there’s something magnetic about her.

I’m not thrilled with how Rey has been written, but Daisy’s great and the sight of little kids cosplaying as Rey never fails to make me tear up…

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

I don’t buy this ‘TESB was just as polarising’ argument. Sure, you can find detractors of just about anything if you look hard enough. I bet there were fans of ‘Meet the Beatles’ that thought ‘Sgt Peppers’ was pompous garbage.

Of course I only have my own perspective, but as a SW fan in 1980 I recall nothing but rapture at how awesome TESB was. It may have been jarring to some - it took risks in establishing a saga rather than just retreading the original - but overall people were just thrilled that the whole thing had been ramped up to 11. It’s not like people were claiming that TESB had killed the series or split the fanbase (and I’m pretty sure Kenner and Marvel suffered no ills).

The only reason anyone could’ve had a beef with TESB is if they were annoyed at it’s ‘middle chapter’ status and/or possibly that it was too dour compared to the comic-booky original. TLJ is derided because it messes with established canon, has plotholes you could drive a Star Destroyer through, and confirms the notion that JJ Abrams didn’t give a hoot about all the ‘mystery boxes’ he used to seduce us into liking the previous one. I’m not saying this to be a troll - I quite like the movies despite all this stuff. But sitting around and referencing Joseph Campbell and postulating world-building that simply never occurred to the writers of these movies is doing their work for them. We did it for Lucas when he couldn’t even make prequels that lined up with his original films, and we’re doing it now. Which is fun of course, but let’s not kid ourselves.

I think it would have been awesome if the New Republic was depicted using Star Destroyers/TIE Fighters etc etc and the First Order relegated to battered old X-Wings and Y-Wings etc. Imagine seeing Leia and Ackbar at the bridge of a big ol’ Star Destroyer - it makes sense the that the New Republic would’ve seized the tech of the former government right? Imagine seeing Kylo Ren in an X-Wing. Probably marketing/toy sales suicide of course, but THAT would subvert expectations and also add an emotional element visually - that of visualising the First Order as a kind of rebellion. If Snoke hadn’t just been a shallow Palpatine-clone we might have had an opportunity to have some ambiguity with regards to the motivations of the FO and Kylo Ren.

And I stand by my contention from a zillion threads back that the ‘new Emperor’ should’ve been Mon Mothma on a revenge trip after her secretly siding with Palpatine and giving the rebels false information (in order to spare the Bothan system and win a seat of power at Palpatine’s side) went south during the Endor battle…

rodneyfaile said:

It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant. Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

Luke was incredibly confident. He was naive (as is Rey) but he had no lack of confidence. Look at the way he (clumsily) facilitated Leia’s rescue, or was the only guy on Yavin 4 who didn’t flinch at the size of the DS exhaust port. Look at the status he had acquired by TESB as a strong (and respected) military leader. Look at his insistence that he could become a Jedi despite Yoda’s dressing him down during their first meeting.

The problem was twofold - he was quick to anger and impatience, and secondly learning to use the Force is/was established as being really difficult. That’s the appeal of the Force as a narrative tool. It’s like martial arts in the Karate Kid. You don’t just switch it on because you feel like it, no matter how confident or tough or naturally gifted you are. That’s the ‘lesson’ of the OT - that just being a hot pilot or good fighter does not a Jedi make. Luke learned this the hard way.

I like the idea of Rey as something of a feral Jedi, but it’s as if the writers of these films aren’t giving the whole thing much thought beyond “hey, let’s have her do cool Jedi stuff”. Yoda expressed obvious amusement at Luke’s notion that a Jedi Master would automatically be a ‘great warrior’. Now this seems redundant. If you’re confident and can wave a stick, then mastery is just around the corner.

rodneyfaile said:

Rey is an autodidact. She has been on her own so long, that is just her way. I love it.

Only to a point. I don’t mind that she has fighting skills, or even heightened intuition as a result of her particular circumstances, but she ‘learns’ Jedi mind-tricks and MAJOR levitation skills immediately and without a shred of effort. She channels the Force in order to defeat Kylo Ren (a trained Force user) after only having heard about the Force that very morning (which, by the way, was because someone told JJ that Rey need a big ‘moment’ rather than being the result of a considered piece of storytelling). That’s fine - the sky is the limit I suppose. But to argue that this fits seamlessly with established lore is absurd. Yes, the lore has grown and evolved from day one. But training and discipline were always a big part of it. Luke says to Leia “you have that power too - in time you’ll learn to use it as I have” as opposed to “you have that power too - and it’ll appear like magic by tea-time. Now go levitate that broom…”

ZkinandBonez said:

Does anyone know who did the art on p.28 (see picture below) for SW #47 “Droid World”. The first page only lists Infantino as the artist (which is quite clear from the art itself) and Gene Day as the inker. But p.28 (the second-to-last page) is clearly drawn by someone else with a noticeably different art style. I’ve had the Norwegian version of this issue since I was a kid, and it has always really bugged me.

(PS. This is from the Norwegian version. I have the American version as well but I’d already scanned the Norwegian one recently, plus the art is untouched and the colours are pretty much the same in both versions anyway.)

I don’t have the issue in front of me, but I always assumed that page was Gene Day. I recall a strip he did somewhere amongst the Conan stuff that looked like this. I’m assuming an Infantino page went missing and Gene quickly flew solo for this one. I could be wrong though…