Servii

BedeHistory731 said:

The ST is still infinitely better than the PT to me 🤷‍♂️.

I still prefer the PT for a few reasons:

1. There are fewer meta moments in the PT that take you out of the experience. TFA and TLJ, in particular, are very referential and have a very prominent “proscenium arch” that makes you feel like you’re watching a movie about Star Wars (or a Star Wars-themed park ride) rather than just a movie in the Star Wars universe. With the prequels, it’s easier for me to relax and immerse myself in the setting.

2. Most of my issues with the prequels are more surface-level problems. The acting, the dialogue, the visuals and CGI. Conversely, the sequels nailed all the superficial aspects, but their failings are on a more structural level with the plot and characters. (The prequels do have plot and character problems, also. Just not as many.)

3. The prequels have a more coherent overarching plot.

4. Prequels are harder to write than sequels. The PT was constrained by needing to work through a series of events preestablished by the OT. So I’d argue some inconsistencies with the OT were hard to avoid. On the other hand, the ST had the advantage of a blank slate to work off of (plus a huge amount of EU source material to potentially draw from), yet they needlessly limited themselves to making a modern variation of the OT.

5. The prequels have more creative planet, ship, and alien designs than the sequels.

6. The PT doesn’t actively detract from my enjoyment of the OT. The ST does.

(Just to be clear, I know the prequels are bad. And I have very mixed opinions on the creative choices George made with them.)

There has been a bright side to all this. After TRoS released, I realized that I loved the setting and lore of Star Wars too much to just give up on it entirely. And while I have no love for what Star Wars has turned into, I won’t let that spoil my enjoyment of what Star Wars used to be. So in the end, my rejection of the ST is what led to me delving back into the EU after so many years, and to me learning about fan preservations. Through both of these, I’ve started to enjoy Star Wars again, in smaller doses.

And it’s a huge relief to know that I was wrong back in 2015 after watching TFA. I thought I had changed too much, that I couldn’t enjoy Star Wars anymore and that it was no longer for me. I know now that that’s incorrect. I’m apathetic about modern Star Wars, but not about Star Wars as a whole.

Make the “eyes” of Darth Vader’s helmet blink like Ewok eyes.

Have the camera-blocking Ronto walk across the screen at key dramatic moments in every film.

Digitally add a mustache and stubble to Luke’s face in RotJ, then digitally remove that same mustache, artificially smoothing out his face in the process, and giving his upper lip a strange, uncanny valley quality.

(Sorry, I accidentally pressed “Quote” instead of “Edit” on my first comment. That’s why it’s two comments in a row.)

In AotC and RotS, deepfake Jango Fett and all the clones into Billy Dee Williams, thus realizing the writers’ early idea of having Lando be a clone from the Clone Wars. Then, since Lando was confirmed in Solo to be attracted to droids, add to the battle scenes some background CGI clones who are…romancing the Battle Droids.

As it stands I feel lots of apathy because the story I grew attached to feels incomplete and like it’s missing important pieces to the puzzle. I’m sad to say but I don’t know if I’ll ever fully be able to get into Disney Star Wars. I can’t even get into Mandalorian. I tried watching the first few minutes of the first episode but I just felt emotionally detached like I was mourning the lost of a family member. I want to get into it and enjoy it for what it is but everything feels so corporate now. It feels like everything within the series now relies on nostalgia and nothing more.

I’m in the same boat. I know that there are still good aspects of modern Star Wars, but the current state of things just doesn’t appeal to me anymore. I’m still revisiting some of the old EU books and playing KOTOR, but I have no investment in Star Wars as an ongoing franchise. I’m far more excited about the great work done on fan preservations than I am about any official new content.

I really like your idea of an Imperial Triumvirate. I would definitely run with that idea. It would provide a lot of potential for factional infighting and intrigue, while allowing the IR to be more multifaceted.

Although I liked the Imperial Knights, I always perceived them as a neutral entity who have no quarrel with the Jedi, which defeats the purpose of being antagonists, so I am sticking to my version of the Knights of Ren even if they are merely “Sith lite” as you put it.

I suppose so. But you could still make them fit a more antagonistic role through their political alignment. Simply, the Jedi would have to oppose them because they’re the enforcing arm of a tyrannical regime, even if they don’t use the Dark Side. They would represent what the Jedi Order could become if it were led astray by a charismatic leader with rhetoric about Force supremacy. So, the battle between the Jedi and Knights of Ren would really be a battle over the future of the Light Side and its role in the galaxy. Though, you can always merge both ideas, and have Kylo and the Knights of Ren gradually slip further and further into the Dark Side as the war progresses.

Actually that would make Luke a man in denial, which IMO would be far too depressing.

It’s not denial. It’s just Luke doing what he’s always done: carrying on in spite of trauma and adversity. It would endear the audience to Luke, showing the very human struggle he’s going through in his life, while also showing that he never gave up on his duty. It’s more realistic to how depression works in real life, and it doesn’t take away Luke’s likability.

Overall, I like your rewrite ideas. Your version of the Imperial Remnant sounds good, and I like what you’re going for with the Knights of Ren and their whole Force Supremacist ideology, but I’d suggest finding additional ways to differentiate this new ideology from the Sith. As they’re described now, they sound like Sith Lite, which is okay, but I think could be made more interesting. One idea (I’m not sure if this is what you were thinking) would be to make the Knights of Ren similar to the Imperial Knights from the Legacy Era: Force users who reject the Dark Side, but serve an authoritarian regime, perhaps out of some sense of a “greater good.” That way, the story won’t require bringing the Dark Side back after RotJ, but will portray a whole new, different corruption of the Jedi ideology that has to be defeated. I wouldn’t have them massacre Luke’s Jedi Order, but I would have them convert most of Luke’s students away from his teachings, leaving Luke disheartened but not totally broken.

I don’t agree with having Kylo Ren as the leader of the IR, though. He can be the leader of the Knights of Ren, but the IR’s leader should be someone the Knights swear fealty to. A Force sensitive, also, but someone older and with more military bearing. Kylo could be basically the chief lieutenant/enforcer of this new Emperor.

As for the Imperial Remnant’s technology, I like the idea of more self-sufficient TIE Fighters, but I’m still not on board with the Death Star lasers coming back. The IR’s strength should be through subterfuge and surgical strikes, like you described. So it would be better if they didn’t have world-wrecking technology to fall back on. Their strength would come from their tactical cunning instead of raw firepower. One thing I would be careful to do is to never show the IR’s military power as overwhelming or insurmountable like the Imperial Fleet was. With battle scenes, there should be the sense that the odds are more even now, and that the IR can sometimes lose in pitched battles that the Empire would have easily won. If done well, it could create more tension, because the audience by now is used to seeing underdogs beating the stronger foe, but when the situation is closer to 50-50, it won’t always be clear what direction a battle will take, and you can use that unpredictability to your advantage.

As for Han, I’m fine with him being written out, for Harrison Ford’s sake. Though I would like for Han and Leia to have a kid or kids. They wouldn’t have to be Force sensitive, and they can just be minor characters,

I like your plot outlines, but I would try to flesh out VIII’s climax a bit more. The part of Kylo and the whole IR fleet leaving Coruscant, while a good character moment for Kylo, seems too abrupt from what you described.

Luke being depressed is fine, but I would rather have Luke’s depression be depicted in a more realistic way. The vast majority of depressed people don’t behave like ST Luke does. They still carry on with their lives, struggling day-to-day while trying to retain some degree of normality. The signs of depression are usually more subtle and easily missed by people. You could have Luke still trying to train his remaining students, but it’s clear he’s lost his old enthusiasm. His room is messier. He seems tired a lot more. Little things like that would go a long way.

fmalover said:

Servii said:

Do you agree with my previous post about Finn’s portrayal as something out of a minstrel show, and that Rey is >essentially on God mode?

Yes, I do. It amazes me that the black main character in the most recent Star Wars trilogy–a trilogy that was marketed as being inclusive–is so disrespectfully written compared to Lando and Mace Windu. John Boyega deserved so much better than that.

I agree on what you said about Rey, as well. I generally try to avoid talking about the issues with Rey’s power level and development, because some people take those criticisms the wrong way. But yes, it’s a significant problem.

I do consider TLJ the least bad of the ST. It’s the only one of the three that tries to rise above being just standard Hollywood schlock, and I appreciate that. TFA is my least favorite Star Wars film, and I’ve discovered that’s partly because I really can’t stand JJ Abrams’ frantic directing style.

BTW, I would appreciate if you checked out the thread titled Your ideal Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. I posted my versions of episodes VII and VIII plus a few additional notes, but I haven’t posted my version of episode IX because the thread has lost steam and I still don’t have a clear vision of it apart from a few vague ideas. Your feedback would be welcome.

Yeah, no problem. I’ll take a look and see if I can think of any suggestions.

Do you agree with my previous post about Finn’s portrayal as something out of a minstrel show, and that Rey is >essentially on God mode?

Yes, I do. It amazes me that the black main character in the most recent Star Wars trilogy–a trilogy that was marketed as being inclusive–is so disrespectfully written compared to Lando and Mace Windu. John Boyega deserved so much better than that.

I agree on what you said about Rey, as well. I generally try to avoid talking about the issues with Rey’s power level and development, because some people take those criticisms the wrong way. But yes, it’s a significant problem.

I do consider TLJ the least bad of the ST. It’s the only one of the three that tries to rise above being just standard Hollywood schlock, and I appreciate that. TFA is my least favorite Star Wars film, and I’ve discovered that’s partly because I really can’t stand JJ Abrams’ frantic directing style.

“Lord Vader…can you hear me?”

“What?!”

From around 2010 to 2015, I had mostly lost interest in Star Wars. So, by the time TFA was about to come out, I wasn’t particularly hyped, but I was optimistic that the movie would be good. All my friends were talking about seeing it. The trailers looked good. The early word of mouth was glowing. So while I wasn’t bursting with excitement in the months leading up to release, I was starting to feel more positively about Star Wars again. I rewatched my old GOUT DVDs for the first time in years. I enjoyed looking at the new merchandise in stores and speculating on the state of the galaxy and what roles the new characters would play. And eventually, my family set a day to go see it. I was nervous that I wouldn’t like it, but I went in already fully believing that the movie was good, and that all there was left to do was for me to simply enjoy it.

I didn’t like it. I thought the dialogue and humor were obnoxious. I thought the acting was mostly underwhelming (through no fault of the actors). I thought the pacing was far too frenetic, especially in the third act. I thought the worldbuilding was cryptic at best. I thought the fanservice was mostly shallow and hamfisted. And I thought the new characters were largely uncompelling. I was enjoying the movie for the first half hour or so, and was fully ready to get invested in these new characters, but somewhere around the time the Falcon or Han showed up, I started to become detached from what was happening on screen.

The character I was by far the most invested in was Finn. I liked him, and was really looking forward to seeing his journey as a defecting Stormtrooper. And I was intrigued by the whole mystery set up surrounding both Kylo and Luke. So, I was disappointed when Finn started to slip more and more into “comic relief sidekick” territory, acting like a well-adjusted, joke-cracking average Joe who gleefully guns down his own former comrades (despite the death of one of those comrades being what broke his brainwashing in the first place). And I was also disappointed that Kylo, a 29-year-old grown man in the guise of a Dark Side warrior, who had a fairly strong introduction at the start of the movie, turned out to be a pathetic, sniveling, emotionally stunted brat. His tantrums in TFA are played almost for comedic effect, and by the end of the movie, watching him flop around pathetically in the snow, I had no interest in the character anymore. As a villain, he was useless, and I felt no sympathy for him, so he failed in both those areas. Snoke was lame and uninspired, as well, and Hux was too young and emotional to be a truly threatening enemy general.

The First Order and Resistance were dull factions, and the state of the galaxy was poorly explained, so I had no investment in the wider conflict or premise, either. Han Solo’s death was both extremely predictable and laughably bad. (What kind of hero’s sacrifice is it to have your hero’s lifeless CGI corpse fall down a bottomless pit? That’s a death for a villain, not a hero.) And by the end, once I realized that Finn was going to stay in that coma and not become a Jedi, my last bit of interest in the new characters was gone. All I had left by the end of TFA was my curiosity about Luke. I held my breath. I wanted so badly for that last scene to make the previous two hours worthwhile. It didn’t.

At the time, I thought I was the problem. After all, the film was getting rave reviews. All of my friends said how much they loved it. Maybe, I thought, I just couldn’t enjoy Star Wars anymore. TFA had all the surface-level trappings of classic Star Wars, so I should have enjoyed it, right?

I do think the film was very polished and pretty, though. Visually, it was very well put together, and the special effects were top notch, obviously (they do have a boatload of money, of course, so this is expected). And the actors did the best with what they were given. The cinematography was quite nice to look at. The color grading was vibrant and appealing.

Then came TLJ. Over the two-year gap, my state of mind about Star Wars veered near complete apathy. I couldn’t bring myself to care, and I thought Star Wars just wasn’t for me anymore, but I still planned on seeing the movie, partly out of curiosity, partly out of a lingering sense of obligation. I had heard beforehand a couple vague rumors about some controversy over a thing Mark Hamill said in an interview about Luke. I went into the movie with low expectations, but still a little hopeful that the story was heading in a worthwhile direction.

I left the theater depressed. Any lingering feelings of investment in Finn’s journey were stamped out by his being made a fool of in his first few scenes. Watching the scenes of pathetic, cowardly, family-abandoning Luke Skywalker were viscerally uncomfortable to watch (and his logical argument for why the Jedi should end is complete nonsense). Poe was made unlikable. Rey was made even more overpowered and less likable. The film, despite being praised as “bold” and “new,” was still heavily derivative of the OT to the point of plagiarism, with the most original parts of the movie (Canto Bight, Poe’s mutiny, etc.) also being the worst. The film reeked of nihilism, recklessly deconstructing what came before while failing to reconstruct anything of value in its place. And while the film sometimes toyed around with interesting ideas, in the end, it failed to commit to them in any meaningful way.

Rian Johnson knew that Snoke was a nothing villain, so he killed him off, but did he really expect us to take Kylo Ren seriously as a solo villain? After it had been established how incompetent, whiny, and nonthreatening Kylo was? And it’s not like TLJ even tried to build Kylo up to be threatening again. TLJ went out of its way to put Kylo beyond redemption, while not bothering to actually make him a strong villain to go along with his new role. So, what was Rian expecting Episode IX would actually do? All that was left to happen was: “Rey defeats Kylo Ren and the First Order.” That was all there was left to see (which makes it all the more baffling that Reylos gush over TLJ so much. The movie goes out of its way to make Reylo not happen). And It was never the “wide open” ending people described it as. TLJ’s ending tries to railroad the story on a particular path, all while cutting off or ignoring many potential plot threads. It fails both as a second film in a trilogy and as a penultimate film in a nine-part saga, and was just a miserable slog to sit through.

I do think the acting was good, though. Mark Hamill and Adam Driver gave great performances. Carrie Fisher was excellent. Andy Serkis did a good job as Snoke, and I thought John Boyega really grew into his role. The special effects were once again great (though not quite as good as Rogue One, in my opinion). The cinematography was some of the best yet, and Rian Johnson is an amazing visual director. As I said before, the film toyed with some interesting ideas and themes that sometimes grabbed my interest briefly. So overall, it was a more engaging, thoughtful film than TFA.

Then came TRoS. There’s not much I can say about this one that hasn’t already been said. I watched it out of morbid curiosity after already hearing all the negative word of mouth surrounding it. It was amusing. The special effects were pretty, and there were some nice shots throughout the film. I liked finally having the new heroes all together working as a team and getting to all have chemistry together. The plot was mostly filler nonsense, and it was clear the writers had mostly just thrown it together, but I thought it was entertaining for what it was. It was fun seeing the great Ian McDiarmid back in his role, also.

I still hated the treatment of Finn in this movie. It was marginally better than the first two, but with most of his side plot from the early drafts of the film having been deleted, he had very little to do besides act concerned about Rey.

Also, Reylo is completely disgusting. The fact that Lucasfilm and Disney market Rey as an ideal role model for young girls, while also pairing her up with the creepy, mind-violating, mass-murdering, authoritarian snake who’s ten years older than her, and having her kiss him for briefly being good, all while trying to wrap the romance in some language about a destined “Force dyad”, is deplorable.

I feel bad for saying all this. I feel bad because of the people who devoted years of their lives working on these movies, who did an amazing job bringing these films to life. The cast, crew, concept artists, designers, and special effects artists all did an amazing job, and deserve nothing but praise for their great work.

The Sequel Trilogy is excellent in every category, except for writing. That’s the sad part of this. They had their chance. They had the original cast back. They had fan goodwill. They had the best artists, designers, and technicians in the industry. They had a clean slate to tell whatever kind of new story they wanted. And this is what we got.

Personal Ranking:

1. A New Hope (Star Wars)
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Rogue One
6. The Phantom Menace
7. Attack of the Clones
8. The Last Jedi
9. The Rise of Skywalker
10. Solo
11. The Force Awakens

Critical Ranking:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope (Star Wars)
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Rogue One
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. The Last Jedi
8. The Force Awakens
9. Attack of the Clones
10. Solo
11. The Rise of Skywalker

Another quote misheard by me from the original Star Wars was Leia saying “Somebody has to save our skins!” which I heard as “Somebody has to save us kids!”

Also, for some reason, I thought Han’s line “He’s the brains, sweetheart!” was actually “Leave the brains, sweetheart!”

Use vocal synthesis to change half of the Stormtrooper voices in the OT to Temuera Morrison. Not all of them. Just half. (I’m actually kind of surprised George never did something like this.)

Or better yet, go further and do the same thing with the ST. As well as deepfaking John Boyega’s face and voice to make him Temuera Morrison instead.

As for ranking the titles, for me, it would go:

1. Return of the Jedi - For the reasons I said above.
2. The Empire Strikes Back - For the reasons Sparky pointed out. It’s a strong, straightforward title.
3. Star Wars - Simple title. Memorable. Rolls right off your tongue, and leaves nearly everything to your imagination, which worked well in this case for people’s introduction to the setting.
4. The Last Jedi - Has a strong air of finality to it. Conveys a sense of great importance to the story about to be told.
5. Revenge of the Sith - Direct and aggressive. Lets you know the story will be hugely eventful. Suggests a turning point in the overarching story.
6. The Phantom Menace - Ominous title that piques your curiosity. It does bug me, though, that “phantom” ends with the same letter that “menace” starts with, so the title doesn’t roll off the tongue as well as it should.
7. Attack of the Clones - Not a bad title. But not really compelling, either. It accurately describes the climax of the movie, so it fulfills its basic purpose, but that’s pretty much all it does.
8. The Force Awakens - Sounds intriguing. It’s an acceptable name for the start of a new story, but has a vaguely corporate sound to it, and as DMC said, doesn’t really make sense with what we know about the Force.
9. A New Hope - I like that it sort of mirrors “The Phantom Menace,” but the original Star Wars really deserves a stronger title than that. “A New Hope” just sounds limp. It undersells the movie.
10. The Rise of Skywalker - Not memorable. Doesn’t really mean anything. I guess I like that there’s a bit of assonance with “rise” and “sky,” but that’s all it has going for it. Cliche and hollow.

I know Howard Kazanjian thought it was a weak title, but “Return of the Jedi” has always been my favorite. The name intrigued me as a kid before I watched the movie, and I love how there are different ways to interpret the title’s meaning. The titular “Jedi” can be either singular or plural, and can refer to Luke, Anakin, or the Jedi as a whole. The title is vague enough not to give away the ending, but tells you enough to grab your interest.

Well, I guess this thread is back.

ANH: The first act on Tatooine being too slow or taking too long. The slow buildup works fantastically to introduce us to the characters and the setting, laying a strong groundwork on which the story can expand. It’s my favorite part of the movie, and that’s saying something.

RotJ: That Luke’s personality became too stoic or monk-like in this movie. It’s clear in the movie that his stoic persona is more of a mask he wears when the situation calls for it. He’s still an emotional person who cares deeply about the people in his life. He’s just developed greater restraint and self-discipline.

TPM: The film having too much politics. I’ll admit that the Jedi Council scenes are needlessly dull, but I do like getting a glimpse of the Senate, and I love seeing Palpatine’s manipulation at work. I wish the scenes were directed better, and they do contribute to TPM’s identity crisis as a film (whether it wants to be a kid-friendly adventure movie or a movie about political intrigue), but there’s nothing inherently wrong with having those scenes present in a Star Wars film.

RotS: That the film tries too hard to segue directly into the OT. I actually wish it had done more to establish the status quo we see in ANH (the deleted scenes about dissident senators meeting would have helped with that), showing the seeds of rebellion and such. Showing the Death Star at the end may have been too much, though, and maybe having Palpatine coming out and blatantly declaring “We’re an empire now!” was too on-the-nose.

TLJ: That Kylo destroys his mask. At the start of TFA, we’re introduced to a Kylo who is mysterious, intimidating, and threatening in the eyes of the audience. By the end of TFA, he is none of those things. I liked the fact that Snoke lampshades this when he chides Kylo for his failure, pointing out how that Kylo’s not the menacing Dark Lord he pretends to be. Kylo couldn’t go back and resume that shadowy persona, because the audience and the heroes would see right through it. He couldn’t regain that lost intimidation factor. So, the best option was for him to ditch the mask and develop his character without it.

Stardust1138 said:

“I’m a Jedi like my father before me” is a direct callback to " I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father". I can’t believe this never registered with me consciously until now.

As well as both Luke and Anakin learn the same lessons in their first two films but make a different choice in the third film of their respective trilogy.

The Phantom Menace and A New Hope:

“Feel, don’t think. Trust your instincts.”

Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back:

“Patience. Think.”

Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi:

Anakin falls to the temptations and succumbs to his emotions while Luke succeeds in finding a rational way to resolve the emotional conflict facing him. In turn Anakin does the same and they both find balance.

It’s like a dialectic. Thesis -> Antithesis -> Synthesis. The middle film in the trilogy offers a counterpoint to what the first film established, then the third film has the protagonist either succeed or fail to reconcile those two conflicting points. For Luke, his initial Thesis was “I will become a Jedi like my father.” The counterpoint of that is learning what an evil man his father turned into. Then the synthesis comes when he resolves to believe in the good in his father, fulfilling the ideal of what his father could have been, which in turn helps redeem Anakin. And he learns from experience that there’s a time to take action and follow your feelings (A New Hope), but there’s also a time to take a step back and think more carefully (Empire).

And, in a way, the OT retroactively offers a counterpoint/antithesis to the prequels. By giving us a similar series of events with an inverted outcome.

I’m fairly indifferent about midi-chlorians. I don’t hate them. I just think they’re an unnecessary middleman. However, I’ve never liked the concept of the Whills. And I think having these transcendent “Force gods” undercuts the pantheism of Star Wars. The idea that the sacred is inherent to all life, that it emanates from life, being felt through the unity of all living beings, is a compelling one. The Whills pull attention away from that and make the setting more traditionally theistic.

I can see why George was tempted to go in that direction. Lots of writers have that urge to eventually “pull back the curtain” and reveal answers to the mysteries they’ve created. That doesn’t always mean you should, though.

My whole life, I thought that, when Obi-Wan and Luke were stopped by stormtroopers in Mos Eisley, and a trooper asked them about their droids, Obi-Wan had said “Not for sale, if you want them.”

Only recently, when I watched the movie with subtitles on for the first time, did I realize he said “They’re up for sale if you want them.”

Also, I didn’t realize that Luke said “Well, more wealth than you can imagine!” to Han. I always heard what he said as “Well, more well than you can imagine!”

And it took me a long time to notice that C-3PO was holding a cleaning rag and wiping himself off after his oil bath.

I’m very much supportive of this idea. Star Wars is a modern mythology, and I would love to see it be expanded upon beyond the constraints of IP ownership. Sparky is right, though. It is a pipe dream.

Jesus Christ, this is exhausting.

Usually, when I debate with someone, we eventually come to some sort of understanding, or at least agree to disagree. But I see now that that is never going to happen with you. We’re just going around and around in circles now, with you asserting your baseless conclusions as facts, over and over again. And frankly, I don’t want to waste anymore of my life talking about this with you, so I’m going to be blunt with you now.

What are you expecting to happen when you make these threads? Are you expecting to actually change people’s minds? Do you actually think you’re going to convert people to your way of thinking that this awful trilogy is somehow great if you do enough mental gymnastics for it? Or are you making these threads because you want to argue about it with people? Either way, all you’re doing is stirring the pot needlessly by talking about how much you hate legitimate criticisms of a movie. It’s bizarre, fanatical behavior.

I would love nothing more than to move on with my life and ignore the Sequel Trilogy going forward. As far as movies go, my mindset is to “let people enjoy things.” But that mindset has to be a two-way street. If I let people enjoy things, you have to let people dislike things, as well. That’s how this works.

I get it. You saw these movies in the theater. You loved them. A lot. But you’re going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people are going to dislike or even hate those same movies you love, no matter how much it pisses you off to think of that. You have to let that go.

And? What’s wrong with that?

The fact that you said this makes it clear that there’s no more point talking to you. You will never understand why people have a problem with this. Star Wars does not belong to the creators of the Sequel Trilogy. They merely had the privilege to play around with the world and characters that George Lucas created. The OT and Luke Skywalker are the heart of Star Wars. They were from the beginning. They always will be. If a future work made by different creators undermines that or steals away the original story’s significance in order to prop itself up, then it doesn’t deserve our investment. It’s bad fan fiction.

Enjoy the movies, though.

HAN: There was too much Vader in him.
LEIA: That’s why I had him train with Luke.

The problem with this dialogue is that it implies that there was some inherent darkness in Ben from the beginning, while also implying that that same darkness was inherent in Anakin. It never was inherent. Anakin was an innocent who was corrupted, first by the trauma of his early life, then by Palpatine. It’s implied that Ben was maybe being telepathically corrupted by Snoke or Palpatine, but again, the movies are frustratingly vague about that, and that’s not what Han is saying here, anyway.

And they overcame their mistakes. Luke even apologizes to Ben on Crait.

Luke then spends the rest of the scene taunting and trolling him. “Every word of what you just was wrong.” and “See ya around, kid,” while messing with Kylo’s head. Luke was going out of his way to get a rise out of Kylo. He wasn’t acting at all like he was genuinely sorry about Ben, or trying to reach out to him emotionally.

No. Ben proves Rey is valuable by showing up to save her, and his sacrifice accomplishes what Anakin could not - saving a loved one from death.

Except the whole point of RotS is that you shouldn’t cling onto loved ones after their time in the world is done. You should let go of your temporal attachments once they leave your life, and allow those you love to return to the Force. Ben resurrecting Rey through the Light Side betrays a complete misunderstanding of the themes of the saga. Cheating death and resurrection of others was established as Dark Side knowledge.

How does this ruin their intimidation?

That means they don’t even fear or respect their leader. They’re like a bunch of gossiping children making fun of an impotent authority figure. It makes the faction as a whole look dysfunctional.

And yet Vader’s redemption spread across the galaxy anyways.

The Rebellion was much, much larger than the Resistance by the end of TLJ. Also, the ST’s handling of the legacy of the old characters is very inconsistent. Rey knows Han Solo as a famous smuggler, yet thinks that Luke Skywalker (who defeated Vader and the Emperor only 30 years ago) is a myth. Yet she somehow also knows about what happened aboard the Death Star and Anakin’s redemption. It’s sloppy writing.

Also, how are Luke’s odd actions on Crait somehow more inspiring than redeeming Vader and defeating the Emperor?

“The First Order will become a true Empire.” Kylo wants to hog Palpatine’s fleet for himself. They’re shown to be smaller than in TLJ.

That’s nothing. That’s not evidence. That’s just rhetoric. And nowhere are we shown that the First Order is smaller than it was before. You thought it was, and you’re reading that into the movie in order to make sense of it.

Because the galaxy was hopeless until Luke showed up on Crait. Even Leia lost hope at that point.

Don’t give me that. The entire galaxy just gave up after Hosnian? The whole galaxy was perfectly willing to just lay down and submit to First Order rule? Then the whole galaxy changed its mind because of some vague story from a handful of people of Luke’s actions on Crait? You hear how ridiculous this story sounds, right? It turns the entire galaxy, outside of the FO and Resistance, into some homogenous, cowardly hivemind that abandoned all hope because it needed to be taught to “believe in itself.” It’s childish storytelling.

He literally felt ashamed for Ben’s fall. That’s the point. He didn’t want to be reminded of that. His smuggling days were to cope with that guilt. And he overcomes it anyways.

And for years, instead of doing anything to help the woman he loved during this extremely difficult time in her life, he left her to fend for herself, just like Luke did. The idea that he spent years as an incompetent, petty criminal, feeling sad about losing the son he neglected, is pathetic for Han. It would be one thing if he had experienced a brief relapse into crime after his son’s fall, but he stayed in that lifestyle for years. Meanwhile, Leia powered through that shame and continued to be a responsible leader against the First Order. Leia acted like a responsible adult. Han did not. That’s the problem.

Kylo killing Han was literally the thing that caused Chewie to shoot him and ignite the bombs. Had it not been for his injury, Rey would’ve lost and certainly wouldn’t have defeated Palpatine.

Ah yes, that oh-so-important gut injury that Kylo sustained. If you rewatch that fight scene, you’ll notice that Kylo’s movement in combat shows no sign of that injury hampering him whatsoever. In fact, he was winning the fight until Rey just closed her eyes and believed hard enough. The injury never plays any noticeable role in how the fight progresses.

Of course, given what the bowcaster did in previous scenes, it should have just killed Kylo outright, but I guess consistency isn’t cool.

It’s fucking INFERENCE. I’m looking at surrounding facts, putting two and two together and drawing a conclusion to them.

What you call “Inference,” I call “making things up to cover for the filmmaker’s mistakes.” There is 0 evidence that the fleet was there because of Luke. None.

They were the ones invading Naboo and who have the droid army.

Yes, and it was an unprecedented situation during peacetime in the Republic, which was why the Republic was so caught offguard by it. But despite that, the Trade Federation was viewed as a legally accepted organization by the Senate. It was not an act by an outside, hostile nation state. It was internal conflict between members of the Republic.

That’s not the point. The point is that an army made the Republic become the Empire.

Holy oversimplification. You understand that a military existing doesn’t automatically transform a Republic into an Empire. It was a convergence of many different factors and crises engineered by Palpatine. The political message of the Prequels isn’t just “Having military bad.”

If that was the case, Palpatine would’ve possessed Snoke or contacted the Kaminoans to create a new healthy clone specifically for this.

You would think so, wouldn’t you? That would be a common sense approach for Palpatine. But TRoS is a film that doesn’t operate based on pesky concepts like “logic” or “common sense.” By suggesting those ideas, you’re already thinking more deeply than the writers did.

How do you know he DOES? And he was overconfident.

Palpatine sure seemed overconfident aboard the Death Star in RotJ. Yet TRoS makes clear that he had a contingency plan the whole time. Why couldn’t that also apply now? What gives TRoS’s ending any more finality than RotJ’s ending?

Except it DOESN’T undermine Anakin and Luke’s arcs.

Anakin isn’t the Chosen One destined to destroy the Sith anymore. Rey is. Luke isn’t the restorer of the Jedi anymore. Rey is. The entire purpose of those two characters now is just to pave the way for Rey, the true savior of the Jedi and the galaxy. The entire overarching story of the saga has been reshaped to really be about Rey. She succeeded where all her predecessors failed, and you can very well bet that Rey will never be supplanted or undermined in the same way that Luke and Anakin were. I guarantee you that.

Dude, Palpatine is reinforcing that Anakin needs to do his bidding. Replace it with “We need to take a shit on my cousin’s car” and it would still retain the meaning.

What?

It’s abundantly clear through basic interpretation of the text that Palpatine is referring to Plagueis as “the one with the power to cheat death.” Do you think Palpatine is referring to himself as the cheater of death? Then why does he say “but if we work together, we can discover the secret”? Notice the use of “We” in that sentence. And the word “but” implies that Palpatine is not the Death Cheater he was referring to, and that it’s something they will seek together.

And yet it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller.

He had already lowered the shields. Confronting Kylo was completely unnecessary to that.

Dude, the literal reason she sent Ben to Luke was because she saw him as another Vader. She overcomes this when training Rey, whom she knew as Palps’ grandkid.

This is never said in the movies.

Ben also felt betrayed by Han and Luke, as established in TFA and TLJ, respectively.

You know what I was saying about how the ST made the OT heroes into bad people and failures? This is partly why. Leia, Han, and Luke apparently did such a terrible job of raising Ben that he sees himself as a victim of their mistreatment. ST Luke and ST Han are horrible people.

Ben is making up for his mistakes and loves Rey. He had no idea resurrecting her would kill him. By your logic, Vader had no agency when saving Luke from Palps.

Except Anakin killed Palpatine, thereby saving the galaxy and destroying the Sith. Kylo didn’t do squat except give Palpatine access to that precious Force Dyad, then revive Rey. He could have been completely removed from the climax of the film.

Why?

Because there’s no rhyme or reason to what happened on Crait from an observer’s perspective. Kylo swings his saber at Luke for a while. Luke dodges. Luke turns out to be an apparition or something, then vanishes. And most people won’t even know that Luke died, so it’s barely even an heroic act, from their perspective. It would just be seen as strange by most people.

To undermine him and mock him. It’s like kids mocking their parents behind their backs.

Wow, what an intimidating faction. I can totally take them seriously as villains.

And?

And the galaxy’s freaking huge! A shipful of people can’t spread a story like that across thousands of planets. The scale of this world is simply too enormous for that to happen.

Again, the FO is not doing well. And we literally see them standing up at the end of TROS.

You keep saying they’re not doing well, yet have no real evidence for it. And what took those people so long to stand up? Why did they ignore the call for help on Crait?

FUCKING SUBJECTIVE.

The Resistance is freaking boring, dude. And the new characters are flat and poorly written. It’s as simple as that.

Han NEVER abandoned his family.

What movie were you watching? Han and Leia are basically divorced, and Han left Leia to go off and play at being a smuggler again, while she was left alone to fight off their son’s regime with her tiny army. Luke had just abandoned her, then Han abandoned her too, when she needed support the most. Han. Abandoned. His family.

Again, it allowed the Resistance to destroy Starkiller. D’Qar would’ve been destroyed had it not been for Han.

He had already done that. Facing Kylo was needless for that goal.

And his actions inspired the galaxy anyway.

At no point is it said that the fleet attacking Exegol was there because they were “inspired by Luke.” That’s just conjecture on your part.

The Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists pre-clones in AOTC say otherwise.

The Trade Federation was still considered a legitimate business within the Republic during TPM. And as soon as the CIS was formed, the question of forming an army to counter them was quickly raised. Because of the emergency nature of the situation, it made sense to use a clone army that had already been produced rather than raising one manually from member planets. The whole point of Palpatine engineering the founding of the CIS was to place the Republic in a no-win situation, where they had to militarize, but in doing so, they accepted the Clone Army, which was created under shady circumstances and ultimately answered only to Palpatine. That was the source of the downfall. Having a recruited self-defense force is not comparable to that.

THAT undermines the PT. And THAT’S no longer canon, too.

And Snap Wexley’s fart wedding is canon. I don’t give a damn about what Lucasfilm says is canon anymore. And neither should you, honestly.

And no, it doesn’t undermine the PT when there’s a freaking Sith Empire that controls half the galaxy, and is actively trying to control all of it. Something like that wouldn’t have been possible during the time of TPM. Which is why the Separatist Crisis was such a big deal. Because there had been a thousand years of peace.

Dude, Palpatine has NO OTHER CLONES BY TROS, and Rey killed him for good but NOT IN HATRED. And if they DO bring him back post-TROS, it WOULD undermine Rey’s arc (that’s fo’ anotha’ discussion, too). Lucasfilm wouldn’t want to do that.

As far as we know, Palpatine doesn’t need a clone, just any new body. And how do we know he doesn’t have another secret clone planet somewhere else?

Anakin killed Palpatine out of love for his son. Shouldn’t that have been enough, then?

Oh, of course. God forbid we undermine Rey’s arc. Undermining Anakin’s and Luke’s arcs is totally fine, though.

Dude, “cheat death” refers to keeping yourself alive. Look it up. And he CAN’T be referring to Anakin wanting to save Padme. Otherwise Anakin would be upset that Palps lied to him about knowing how to save Padme.

Let’s revisit the scene:

“Just help me save Padme’s life. I can’t live without her.”

“To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”

He’s CLEARLY talking about cheating Padme’s death. And yeah, Anakin should have been mad at Palpatine for misleading him about it, but no one said the dialogue in RotS was perfect.

And Palpatine obviously isn’t referring to himself here when he mentions the “only one,” so by process of elimination, he’s talking about Plagueis. That’s the only person he could be referring to.

It haunting him forever is not a failure. It leads to his redemption.

As I said. Purely in service to Kylo’s arc. Han was not sacrificing himself for his son’s sake. He was trying to bring his son back with him. Han is discarded so that his death can be just another part of Kylo’s journey as a character.

What was Luke supposed to do? If he showed up on Crait, the FO would’ve annihilated him immediately.

It was a choice between possibly dying by going to Crait himself, or definitely dying by projecting himself there.

Are you kidding? Ben realizes that Leia really did love him. And it was the Han hallucination that redeemed him.

Did she raise him in a way that Ben didn’t know that? What you’re describing is just headcanon. She literally just says his name. And of course, the idea of Ben hallucinating his father forgiving him is laughable.

Saving Rey from becoming Palpatine’s vessel, reminding her she is valuable (fo’ anotha’ discussion…) and allowing the future heir to the Skywalkers’ legacy and future trainer of Jedi to live on is not doing nothing.

Why is her life more valuable than his? All Ben amounts to in the end is just a lifeline for Rey. He has no agency as a hero beyond this. He doesn’t even have dialogue!

Luke became a legend post-RotJ because him redeeming Darth Vader - the most hated man in the galaxy - broke the galaxy’s expectations. The galaxy thought he was infalliable. Him standing up to the FO, being “invincible” from their laser blasts and humiliating the Supreme Leader in front of his own troops is why the galaxy renewed hope.

They had to have received this info from either the Resistance or the FO troops whose leader was publicly humiliated.

To someone unfamiliar with the concept of Force projection, the encounter would be completely nonsensical. And why would First Order troops spread a story in a way that humiliated their leader? The Resistance would try to spread it, but they’re just a shipful of people at that point.

Ah, yes, as if making up for your mistakes isn’t a concept that exists.

Except he didn’t. He did the bare minimum of what should have been expected him. He fixed nothing. He just stopped things from getting any worse after the situation had already fatally deteriorated.

They didn’t know where Exegol was. THAT’S THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE MOVIE.

Why weren’t they fighting the First Order all this time? An absurdly large fleet like that could have destroyed the FO decisively during TLJ. And if they were fighting, then clearly the “Resistance” we’ve been following is just a sideshow compared to the real war going on offscreen.

Because they are the focus of the ST. Because they are the ones we have a connection to.

If the only reason to focus on them is because of the audience’s personal connection to them, then I’d say the movies fail, because I never felt a connection to those characters, nor is the Resistance an interesting faction to watch. All of the interesting stuff was apparently happening offscreen.

I’ve already told you that the FO isn’t doing too well. It’s literally Kylo’s motivation.

That’s your headcanon. You’re thinking about this more than JJ Abrams did.

Again, the old ones overcame their mistakes.

The mistakes that were made up offscreen in order for the ST to take place. And no, they didn’t overcome them. Han was still a smuggler who abandoned his family, then got killed when he tried to reconnect with them. Luke was still a callous fool who abandoned the galaxy to the Dark Side, then died giving a diversion after most of the Resistance was already killed and the villains had basically won.

They’d rather avoid becoming another Empire.

The PT-era Republic didn’t have a bloodthirsty Empire breathing down its shoulder, clearly intending to destroy it. If they did, some sort of defense force made of recruits from different member worlds would have been a given. And when the Old Republic did have an outside, hostile Empire invading it during the KOTOR and SWTOR era, of course they had a military, because they weren’t fools. Even postwar Japan had a military for self defense. Throwing away your military while the Empire is regrowing makes no pragmatic sense. Not even real world politicians, for all their stupidity, would enact something as blind as that.

NO, HOW Palps survived is NOT a huge plot point. If it were, TROS would be another mystery-themed story like Gravity Falls.

It’s a freaking MASSIVE plot point. It has enormous repercussions for the story of the ST and the saga as a whole, and for the future of the setting since Palpatine could easily just return again. Just glossing over it and expecting the audience to not ask questions about it is ridiculous and insulting. You don’t even need to spend that much time on it. Just don’t beat around the bush with words like “Somehow”. Put some thought into it, and tell us how it happened.

Dude, Palpatine literally explains to Anakin that Plagueis couldn’t cheat death but could only save others.

That counts as “cheating death.” It’s just clunky dialogue. Who do you think he’s talking about? Who else would it be?