Sepharih

jonathan7 said:

However this got my thinking, in relation to another idea in this thread... Split personalities. However instead of split personalities...

Either somewhere in AotC... or RotS credits start with reference to the Chancellor having a personal warrior called Vader working for the Republic to combat the Separatists... Vader is rumoured to be an ex-Jedi. The not exactly possible part would be possibly seeing Vader engaging in combat at some point... Obviously when Anakin isn't doing anything, as they are one and the same, but would be a shock. A bit like say Bruce Wayne and Batman, you never see them together. (and yes I know; how this would be done, or if's possible I don't know).

It's a shame this is impossible to do given the material we have, because this is an exceptionally inspired subplot.  You even see hints at something resembling it in the movies with Anakin always running off to Palpatine for one thing or another.  If they had gone this route you could have seen his "assignments" appear to get more and more questionable each time, until Anakin lost sight of what was right and wrong.

Actually, this reminds me of the Winter Soldier story arch from Captain America.  Basically the story goes like this: Captain America (in modern times) finds out that his friend Bucky is actually alive somehow.  Through the course of the story it's revealed that his seemingly innocent kid sidekick was given to him for a much darker purpose than he ever realized.  It was Bucky's job to do the things Cap's moral code wouldn't allow, sneak behind enemy lines and slit officer's throats, and tie up loose ends.  Cap was the righteous hero, but Bucky was the one who did the dirty work.  When he seemingly died, Bucky was found by the russians, rebuilt, and retrained into an assassin of the state.

Basically in this version; Obi-wan Kenobi is the golden boy of the republic and the jedi order during the clone wars, and his apprentice Anakin is seemingly innocuous but secretly "does what is necessary to preserve liberty" under the orders of the supreme chancellor.

YES!!!!  I knew TOR would have some awesome stuff.  I'm going to crack open that soundtrack and do some rough cuts of the battle of geonosis, that and see if I can find a good theme for Dooku!

Sweet.  I'll put that in my list of things to iron out further in the future.

This is really rough and needs sound FX as well as further audio editing, but I just wanted to see how people felt about this as an alternative to the silly "high ground" dialogue in ROTS.

I've seen some edits that cut the whole section entirely, but I do like the idea of having one last dramatic moment between obi and anakin before the final strike.....but I wanted to get a second and third opinion before I put more into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi80u8eFCKM

Vladius said:

I'm saying it might feel undeserved if there's not enough character development through the scenes in the movie to begin with.

Well, my view is this:

At the end of the day, nothing beats good old fashioned character development and exposition on the screenwriting level....but music can work as a substitute up to a certain point.

Giving Dooku a theme doesn't make up for lack of development in his character, but it does give him more uniqueness and personality which isn't a bad thing no matter how you look at it.  If Dooku is the central antagonist of the movie (or a sub-in for one at least), then it makes sense to me to do everything that is possible to strengthen him as a character.  Whether or not his character is deserving of an epic John Williams-ish theme is certainly debatable, but at least it would give him something to stand out.

Vladius said:

Wouldn't that contribute to him feeling underdeveloped?

What?  Dooku having a theme?  How so?

fishmanlee said:

Did Moff Jerjerrod have a theme? did Tarkin have a theme? Did Belloq have a theme in Raiders?

Well, Belloq isn't really a good example considering he's from a totally different series with huge differences in themes and ideas.  Not every villain needs his own theme in every film series....but we're talking about Star Wars.

Moff Jerjerrod is.....a nobody.  He barely even counts as a sub-villain in a movie next to the Emperor and Vader.

Tarkin is the closest....but even he ultimately is just a sub-villain alongside the real central antagonist, Darth Vader....who didn't even get his theme until the next movie (though I'm totally not against inserting it into ANH's score).

Count Dooku seems like he's supposed to be the central antagonist in the movie, but he comes in so late and he's so underdeveloped that it's kind of hard for him to leave an impression.  Giving him a theme would help.

greenpenguino said:

Has anyone thought of using John William's Dracula score to accompany Christopher Lee?

 

Just wondering...

Wow....I have some friends who have told me that's the best version of Dracula ever, but I've never seen the movie or heard the soundtrack before, and I just pulled it up on youtube.  It's definitely worth culling through for material.

I honestly find it amazing enough that Lucas was able to cast Christopher Lee in a role called Count D. with a long black cape and was able to somehow avoid being lambasted for doing something so absurdly fourth wall-breaking (maybe it just wasn't important considering everything else that was wrong?).

Either way, I don't know if Dracula is the right direction, but going back to the blandness of the AOTC score....did Dooku even have a theme?  I remember Darth Maul's theme.  I remember General Grevious' theme.  Maybe Dooku did....but I sure couldn't remember it to save my life, which is not good.

Be he a rogue Jedi, or a Dark Lord of the Sith, someone needs to find a better theme that fits with his character because he's underdeveloped enough as it is.

ben_danger said:

^i have tried cutting PT parts with music from similar periods as the OT, or earlier if we imagine TPM came out in 1968.

My favourite two are Clash of the Titans, and Ben-Hur. But that is only because I have those. Someone did an amazing music cut of the pod race to a Close Encounters a while back.

Interesting, I'd like to see it.  I've been looking at other star wars soundtracks for ideas mostly, and even found a few.  Mostly I think I'd want to avoid using too much music from other movies mostly because it might be too recognizable and/or clash with the existing movie soundtrack.....but it'd be cool to see.

I have a possible candidate for an alternate track, but I'll have to wait until I get back home tonight where my footage is to see how it plays out.

Just curious, but what have people thought of in terms of radical music edits? Nobody on earth does a better music score than John Williams, but a lot of the music in the prequels feels very canned and generic because of changes that were made late in the editing process if I remember correctly.  I remember in Magnoliafan's episode 1 he added the swoop chase music in from Shadows of the empire and I thought it worked very well.

The Blu-ray's have given us 24bit uncompressed audio and I cannot think of a film that has more readily available sound fx libraries thanks to an endless number of videogames set in the star wars universe, so it's not likely to get any better than this.

One section of Attack of the Clones that I think is in dire need of alternate music is the battle of Geonosis.  The music for the battle in the arena is somewhat questionable.....but not that horrible.  However, I cannot stand the subsequent music for the Clone Rescue and the battle outside.  The music there feels so bleh it almost puts me to sleep.

This is the start of one of the most speculated parts of the back story from the OT.  The Jedi are going to war for crying out loud.  There should be war drums getting pounded, or something suitably heroic to pump the action up.

^I would be curious to see as well.  I'm not against making drastic cuts, like the one I suggested for the Obi-wan and vader duel, but I have trouble with the idea of cutting the Rancor because it really is one of the standout parts of ROTJs production design.  The sequence overall may be kind of dicey, but so much of ROTJ's ideas feel like a retread, and the Rancor is something trully unique to the movie and is unlike almost anything we've seen before.  That's especially true if you cut the unnecessary planet core monsters from Episode 1, leaving the Rancor as the first instance we see a creature of such size and scope.

Maybe in the end it would serve the pacing and Luke's character development better, but I'd definitely like to explore every conceivable option before just cutting it.

darth_ender said:

I don't think it's the degault speed.  Remember, Luke really hefted that skull and sparks flew from the controls when it was hit.  It seems like he actually broke the controls that normally allow for a slow descent.

Well, that kind of goes back to what I was saying before.  Logically...does that really make sense?  Ok...so you smash the pannel with with a rock, but would that really trigger a complete release of the door?  It seems more likely to me that it would just make it start to close....but it is a fairly minor nitpick.  I just thought it gave good reason to have Luke use the force to bring the gate crashing down instead.

Ultimately i'm nitpicky on this scene because I really think something needs to change in it.  From the start of the movie, Luke seems like such a different character and seems to posses so much confidence, but I feel this sequence diminishes that.  Still, the rancor itself is far too iconic to just cut I think.

I know his options are limited and he's not in the best position...but he's supposed to be a jedi, or just short of one, at this point damnit.  Hiding under a rock and physically hurling a piece of debris at a panel just feels so weak sauce to me.

MrInsaneA said:

Eh. Just let Anikan get some tuchas. I don't like the whole "Cloistered Sexless" thing the jedi have. It's creepy. There are better ways to lead Anikan to the Dark Side.

I don't know, it kind of fits with the whole warrior monk angle of the Jedi I think.

DuTwan said:

I don't think its meant to be a slow closing door, after all it is a rancor they are keeping.

I guess it is just me, but I just find it strange that that would be the default speed of the door.  Seems like such an accident begging to happen.

^What Vladius said.

I disagree with the idea of removing the forbidden love aspect of the story because while Episode II could probably work without it, I think it removes an important piece of Anakin's character development in III.  In episode III he already has an inherent level of distrust towards the jedi because he knows he's in a forbidden relationship with Padme and what the reaction will be if he is outed.  Even those he asks advice of, like Yoda, can't be told the full story and so he has few people he can turn to when he begins to have visions....at which point palpatine enters.

I think the core idea behind the story works, but it's undermined by the stilted dialogue and poorly explained character motivations.

It's not well explained at all, but I don't think it's that crazy the council would send Anakin off alone with Padme and Obi-wan wouldn't outright confront him over the attachment the two share with one another.

Remember that Jedi are all still human(ish).  Raised from the proper age or not, they are not just droids.  Emotions and the need for attachment is something hardwired into all sentient beings that they must simply learn to overcome and control.  It would probably be expected at some point that even the most perfect of students would begin to have thoughts of a life outside the order and may even stretch the boundaries of what the Jedi code would allow with personal relationships.

If you think about it, this would actually make sense as a trial for Anakin, one that all young jedi must go through to choose a life within the order, or a life where you are free to pursue earthly attachments.  But Anakin wants it all.

The problem is that the movies make it seem like Anakin is the first Jedi in history to feel this way and it makes the Jedi look like dunces for not realizing it.  It would be better if they understood his connection to her, and instead just underestimated how strong it was and how willing he would be to lie to them.  Not sure how this could be better established though.

 

Bingowings said:

It opens slowly on one side (for dramatic effect, too scare Jabba victims) but for safety sake it would make sense to have a fast shut on the other side (so the Rancor keeper doesn't get stomped or eaten when he is cleaning out the Rancor pit).

Granted, I think it's a special edition change, so I'm not sure whether people even want to acknowledge it....but don't we see the door closing fairly slowly after oola is eaten?

I don't know.....of my issues with ROTJ this is definitely on the minor end so I guess the force throw is well enough.  I have bigger issues with that sequence anyway.

Actually the accusation of laziness was originally stated by an anti sith eye guy.  I agree with him that they are kind of lazy as a way to designate a characters emotional state and alignment....except I also think they work.

I think i'm done arguing the point in any case both because i'm just reiterating what I've already stated several times, and I'm not really gung ho about it one way or the other.

I think overall i'd be satisfied if it was just changed to a force thrown rock/skull into the switch rather than a physical throw ala Darth Maul....but I would like to point out that while plenty of doors shut closed pretty fast in star wars, they tend to open pretty fast as well, and the Rancor's gate opens very slow and deliberately.
I admit it's really nitpicky and it's hardly a deal breaker, but you do kind of have to wonder if smashing the panel like that would really release a doorway like that, as a opposed to just making it close.  That's why I thought Luke using the force to break it's locks and pull it down my work better...but if the consensus is that it's too overblown then the keeping the smashed panel is fine.

Just throwing it out there...but does anybody else have an issue with how the sequence plays out?  Maybe it is just me, but while Luke doesn't have a whole lot of options (especially without his lightsaber), I really feel like there's got to be a better way for him to handle the situation then hiding under a rock and shoving a bone in the things mouth.  Lol, maybe I've just gotten too used to doing this in more recent days:

Oh snap

ben_danger said:

someone not so long ago suggested cutting the obi-wan/vader duel from ANH, so we just see the beginning and the climax. a fair point if we consider that in a I-VI running order, duels may at this point become somewhat tiresome.

this got me thinking, has anyone ever considered completely cutting the palp/windu duel out in the same fashion? we see them exchange words, then we follow anakin rushing to the scene, then enstead of expecting a civilised arrest going on, the entire suete has been trashed and there is a jedi about to assassinate the chancellor. could create some much needed empathy to anakin and some ambiguity to the events. and would eliminate the whole lightsabre too.

some additional still shots could be inserted of the other jedi dead in various places with smoke rising from them, later suggeting they were just zapped to death.

You know what....if it can be done that's actually a really great idea.  There's plenty of lightsaber action as it is in the movie and this one is EASILY the weakest link.  I had a more involved idea to fix it that required a lot of visual effects....but this is much more straightforward and as you said would help the audience follow Anakin's perspective more.  I wonder how that would work in the flow of the movie.

Vladius said:

That's like shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it. Having yellow eyes is an effect, not a cause. If you don't address or don't like the causes then it doesn't make any sense.

It's a visually oriented medium, right, but that doesn't mean you need a cue. Yellow eyes would be redundant because Mark Hamill's expressions say it all.

I think there's a misunderstanding on where I'm coming from here.

The problem I have with the scene is not its intention.  I think it's good idea and great part of the story that this scene represents Luke's final temptation, and concludes with him coming just short of the edge, and coming back right before he goes too far.  I don't want to change that or downplay that at all.

It's the logic of the events leading up to that moment that I have an issue with (that and maybe the choreography, but that's a separate issue), but my solution would never be to change the intent of the scene (as I interpret it of course).  A cop-out they may be, but Sith eyes exist in episode III to remove any doubts and give clarification that yep...he's evil all right.  I think it's fair to criticize it as somewhat lazy, but part of me feels like Luke could benefit from that given how shaky his motivations are.

I never said it , on its own, would fix the issues I have with the scene, and I am on the fence about them.  I just didn't think they were a horrible idea because I think the scene needs tweaking, and I still feel that way.

Sith Eyes may not be the answer, but Mark Hamill's expressions just don't "say it all" to me, and there are apparently even interpretations of the scene where he's not close to the darkside at all.

Now onto another note:

I would LOVE to hear some radical ideas for this scene.....because I had the exact same thought watching it the other day.  A lot of this has to do with how powerful we've come to percieve Jedi as being over the years through the PT and even the EU....but Luke seems so helpless in this whole sequence to me for a Jedi, and it's kind of a weak conclusion to be quite honest.

Having him use the force to throw the rock is a definite improvement, but even that's kind of suspect.  Would hitting it with a rock even do that logically?  Maybe it would be better if the switch was ignored completely and he used the force to bring the entire gate itself crashing down without it?

Vladius said:

Alright, so that's your opinion, we can't change your opinion, but how is any of this improved with blatantly obvious Lucas-league yellow sith eyes?

Well at the very least it provides a visual indicator to how close Luke is to the edge of complete darkness, which should not be underestimated in a visually oriented medium, and helps to intensify the moment.

It also clearly defines that yes, he is close to the darkside.  Unnecessary?  Perhaps, but there are definitely different interpretations of that scene based on the comments made in the past two pages that suggest some people don't think he is close to turning at all in the first place.

To be quite honest i'm more on the fence when it comes to this idea.  I don't think it's a horrible idea at all....but i'm not gung ho about it either.  I love the idea of the force having a corrupting effect on a person's visage, particularly their eyes, but i'm still kind of wishy washy on them being so immediate rather than something that happens after years of use.

The past few pages of discussion have gotten me far more interested in the subplot I was discussing actually.

Mrebo said:

Then his overconfidence was truly his weakness!

To me, the story completely validated his performance. It wasn't simply that he wasn't smart enough, nor that the Jedi were clouding his Force powers, it's that he was so unbelievably confident and had gotten to a point that he was simply out of touch with his own ability to persuade.

Clearly his overconfidence is his weakness to me....

...but how can that be if he doesn't even ultimately care whether or not he can turn Luke?  Not much confidence in that.  I guess you can say that he's just overconfident in his control of vader....but that makes his realization less poignant to me.

Just to be clear, in case there is confusion, I'm not saying the Emperor's actions are contradictory within the film.  I think he approaches the situation incorrectly in how he approaches luke....but his actions are fairly straightforward.  When I said they were contradictory I was referring to the idea of him convincing luke to turn evil by convincing him it was for the greater good somehow.

Vladius said:

Well, if he tried to do it that way in the open, it would make him look weak. A large part of persuading someone is appearing confident and powerful to them. If the Emperor started talking about friendship and compassion and serving the greater good, it would be even more out of character for someone who's pure evil. He understands the complexities of the situation without having to acknowledge them. That's what makes him the manipulator who's in control.

He doesn't have to play it like that though.  The idea isn't necessarily to convince Luke that he, the emperor, is a good man.  The idea is to muddle up the idea of what is right and wrong and find a way to convince Luke to give in, or even just pretend to give in just a little, to try and do a greater good.  Palpatine knows this game well enough that he knows if he can get Luke to play along long enough he'll lose himself before he even realizes it....but he has to get him to make that choice.

The idea of Palpatine offering to spare the rebels or, at least, his friends if he plays along does this without what you're saying both because it plays to luke's desire to protect them, and because it very clearly and concretely asserts the emperor's dominance over him should he choose to play ball.

I actually wonder now if this could be established in the movie using footage from the prequels

Vladius said:

Another problem with him telling Luke to do a little evil to serve the greater good is that it's not really that evil, either way, to kill the Emperor. He would be doing everybody a service, and doing his job as a military commander. It's just a straightforward good action that can be done for the wrong reasons. The point is what happens afterwards - if he does it in anger, then he will turn to the dark side, so he has to hide and steady himself until he can confront them properly for the right reasons.

That's kind of my point though.  The actual act of killing the emperor isn't what's evil, but the mindset in which it's done.  I feel it undercuts the tension of the scene and of Luke's "choice" because the "choice" isn't really that complicated.  Release your anger and turn to the darkside.....or.....don't.

Yes, cleary he will be emotionally compromised at this point and I can certainly see him losing control for the moment that he does....but there is ultimately no doubt what choice he will make because the choice is ultimately obvious.  A single moment of anger and rage cannot define a persons path so completely...and if it is possibly for that to be the case it makes for a shallow story IMHO.

Even Anakin, rushed as his darkside turn certainly was, had more complexity then JUST his massacre of the sand people.

Again...I appreciate this interpretation and If that's how you feel I can definitely understand the nonissue of whether or not there was a chance Luke could turn.  It's fairly inconsequential if that's how you feel about it.  Again, however, I do not share it.

What I dislike about this interpretation is that I feel it does an injustice to the emperor and mcdiarmid's performance.  What I always took away from his performance was how unbelievably confident he was throughout the entire run of the movie.  Every single scene with him he seems practically omniscient, every single piece of the world moving just as he expects it too, everything proceeding as planned....except for three times.  The first is obvious.  The second is his surprise at luke's arrival on endor.  And the third:

 "You've failed your highness.  I am a Jedi....like my father before me."

"..........so be it......Jedi."

That moment is so powerful because you can see palpatine's huge incredible machinations and plans crumbling on his face...in realization that the one thing he never foresaw happening just did.....Luke chose the right path.  He bet the farm on luke...and he lost.

.....at least that's how I always saw it.....

Vladius said:

He doesn't reference it explicitly because he doesn't need to. Does he need to spell out that killing the leaders of the Empire would help people fighting the Empire?

Not explicitly, depending on how it's written, but even if that is the thought process that luke has in the scene, it's in spite of what the emperor is saying and not as a result of it......which kind of hurts the emperor's characterization as a master manipulator to me.

Vladius said:

Why should it mirror Prequel Anakin?

Doesn't need too, was mostly an observation.  I do like symmetry between the trilogies from a saga perspective though.

Even so, it doesn't change my point.  Palpatine isn't playing Luke's attachment to them in the manner i'm describing, and referencing them in the way he does is counterproductive to what i'm talking about.

Vladius said:

Sepharih said:

 

Yeah, sorry, but I'm not buying that the scene does what i'm talking about "subtly" when Palpatine's dialogue flat out contradicts what I'm talking about.

How?

.......

They, of course are his weakness....but pointing that out along with everything else he says and does is antithetical to what I'm talking about.  He uses the danger they are in to bring out the anger in luke and get luke to unleash his rage at vader and himself, rather than as a way to tempt luke into playing by his rules.....give in a little and do a little evil ultimately towards a greater good.